See and Feel the inside Move the Outside

[dlygrisse]

Right shoulder down plane

Recently purchased Mike Hebron's book on the recommendation of people on this forum. I know that Slicefixer has mentioned it was one of his favorite books, and after reading it it is obvious it jives with a lot of his teaching philosophy. My question is this: Hebron speaks of the right shoulder going down plane to start the down swing. He also says that it supplies most of the power during the swing. Is this a good thought on how to begin the downswing? Or is this just a result of the left side clearing? It it obviously similar to Hogans downswing drill which he demonstrated in SWWOG, but Hogan says start with the left hip, Hebron says move the right shoulder downplane, and Slice says start by turning the left side through impact. I am wondering if this is all just semantics, or there is a real differene in the mechanics of this move.

[KevCarter]

Recently purchased Mike Hebron's book on the recommendation of people on this forum. I know that Slicefixer has mentioned it was one of his favorite books, and after reading it it is obvious it jives with a lot of his teaching philosophy. My question is this: Hebron speaks of the right shoulder going down plane to start the down swing. He also says that it supplies most of the power during the swing. Is this a good thought on how to begin the downswing? Or is this just a result of the left side clearing? It it obviously similar to Hogans downswing drill which he demonstrated in SWWOG, but Hogan says start with the left hip, Hebron says move the right shoulder downplane, and Slice says start by turning the left side through impact. I am wondering if this is all just semantics, or there is a real differene in the mechanics of this move.

 

UNBELIEVABLE dlygrisse,

 

You and I are in EXACTLY the same place. I bought the book for the same reasons as you, love it, but that point just doesn't sound right to me either. Maybe we are interpreting it incorrectly??? I will be very happy if Slice or our other friends can help clear that up for us.

 

If it was a dumb question, thanks for taking the bullet for me. :wub: :yess: :yes:

 

Kevin

[dlygrisse]

Recently purchased Mike Hebron's book on the recommendation of people on this forum. I know that Slicefixer has mentioned it was one of his favorite books, and after reading it it is obvious it jives with a lot of his teaching philosophy. My question is this: Hebron speaks of the right shoulder going down plane to start the down swing. He also says that it supplies most of the power during the swing. Is this a good thought on how to begin the downswing? Or is this just a result of the left side clearing? It it obviously similar to Hogans downswing drill which he demonstrated in SWWOG, but Hogan says start with the left hip, Hebron says move the right shoulder downplane, and Slice says start by turning the left side through impact. I am wondering if this is all just semantics, or there is a real differene in the mechanics of this move.

 

UNBELIEVABLE dlygrisse,

 

You and I are in EXACTLY the same place. I bought the book for the same reasons as you, love it, but that point just doesn't sound right to me either. Maybe we are interpreting it incorrectly??? I will be very happy if Slice or our other friends can help clear that up for us.

 

If it was a dumb question, thanks for taking the bullet for me. :wub: :yess: :yes:

 

Kevin

 

As they say there are no dumb questions......plus I have learned that life is too short to worry too much about what other think of me, especially in cyber space.

 

Have you ever read Hebron's Golf Swing Secrets...and Lies, much of the same thing in "See and Feel" but with a lot more interesting information, not really a instruction book, more of a book on golf philosophy, interesting read. Anyway glad to know that I am not the only one having issues with the downswing transition. Hopefully one of the gurus on this site will chime in soon and turn us both into Ben Hogan. LOL

[KevCarter]

Recently purchased Mike Hebron's book on the recommendation of people on this forum. I know that Slicefixer has mentioned it was one of his favorite books, and after reading it it is obvious it jives with a lot of his teaching philosophy. My question is this: Hebron speaks of the right shoulder going down plane to start the down swing. He also says that it supplies most of the power during the swing. Is this a good thought on how to begin the downswing? Or is this just a result of the left side clearing? It it obviously similar to Hogans downswing drill which he demonstrated in SWWOG, but Hogan says start with the left hip, Hebron says move the right shoulder downplane, and Slice says start by turning the left side through impact. I am wondering if this is all just semantics, or there is a real differene in the mechanics of this move.

 

UNBELIEVABLE dlygrisse,

 

You and I are in EXACTLY the same place. I bought the book for the same reasons as you, love it, but that point just doesn't sound right to me either. Maybe we are interpreting it incorrectly??? I will be very happy if Slice or our other friends can help clear that up for us.

 

If it was a dumb question, thanks for taking the bullet for me. :wub: :yess: :yes:

 

Kevin

 

As they say there are no dumb questions......plus I have learned that life is too short to worry too much about what other think of me, especially in cyber space.

 

Have you ever read Hebron's Golf Swing Secrets...and Lies, much of the same thing in "See and Feel" but with a lot more interesting information, not really a instruction book, more of a book on golf philosophy, interesting read. Anyway glad to know that I am not the only one having issues with the downswing transition. Hopfulle one of the gurus on this site will chime in soon and turn us both into Ben Hogan. LOL

 

I ordered Hebron's Golf Swing Secrets...and Lies Thursday! We are in the same place. The only way I will ever look like Hogan is if he weighed in over 300 pounds. :)

 

I have to take off in a little while. Have a great day. I'll look forward to checking this thread tonight.

 

Kevin

[shortgames]

When you bump the hip you create axis tilt which drops the right shoulder on plane.

The top red line is where the right shoulder started

[KevCarter]

When you bump the hip you create axis tilt which drops the right shoulder on plane.

 

Wow, FANTASTIC first post. Welcome to the forum!

 

Your pictures make it so easy to visualize what is happening. Would you mind expanding it a little bit? What feeling happens next?

 

Thanks! :wub:

 

Kevin

 

ps: now I'm really getting late for work. See you guys tonight!

[irishfight4it]

ha... i wish hebron stuck to his guns and still taught this way, technically..... his method now is 180 degrees different

[shortgames]

Thanks, as far as "feeling what happens next" shoot I don't know -everyone has different feelings. When learning how to get the shoulders on plane I used to think hit the ball with the right shoulder but I've been told get the left shoulder up and back works better with most. I guess once something becomes natural it loses it's "feeling"??? I must make a disclaimer-I'm not a instructor- I'm actually a plumber that has been studying the swing for about 5 years. Manzella is my instructor so I've learned a TON from him. Not here to act above, here to share and learn.... this place seems to have a positive vibe.

[slicefixer]

When you bump the hip you create axis tilt which drops the right shoulder on plane.

The top red line is where the right shoulder started

 

 

But, you do NOT have to "bump"........:yess: It WILL take care of itself IF you SET UP correctly and took it back correctly......

 

And yes, the right shoulder does work down plane, but, it's reacting to the LEFT SIDE "clearing"/"pulling".......IF ya' got it back correctly and stretched it a bit......:wub:......doesn't work OVER where it went back, but, in the best swings it doesn't work UNDER either.......but under is normally a LOT better than over......:yes:

[slicefixer]

ha... i wish hebron stuck to his guns and still taught this way, technically..... his method now is 180 degrees different

 

Sad to hear it if he's changed........his book really helped me to understand 5 Lessons a LOT better.....plus video footage, etc.

[ericld]

When you bump the hip you create axis tilt which drops the right shoulder on plane.

 

 

To each his own. When I bump that hip it's death for me. It creates a lateral slide and an extreme right shoulder drop/fat shot.

 

All that's in my head at the top is flat downswing, TURN (which feels like a twist for me, but that's my problem :wub: )

[ericld]

...the LEFT SIDE "clearing"/"pulling".......IF ya' got it back correctly and stretched it a bit......:wub:

 

 

YES! When I am hitting the ball well I feel that left side "getting out of the way" that you speak about. Top and bottom. I also sense a flatness to my DOWN swing. People tell me that it doesn't look much flatter than my take away but it feels DAMN flat. I feel like Furyk slinging it from the hip like an old Wild West gunslinger.

 

Needless to say I get that good feeling about 15% of the time..

[slicefixer]

When you bump the hip you create axis tilt which drops the right shoulder on plane.

 

 

To each his own. When I bump that hip it's death for me. It creates a lateral slide and an extreme right shoulder drop/fat shot.

 

All that's in my head at the top is flat downswing, TURN (which feels like a twist for me, but that's my problem :wub: )

 

 

For MOST good players it's a NECESSITY to "bump".......but the bump causes all kinds of INconsistency and problems if not rehearsed/ingrained and timed perfectly........please don't MISunderstand me, there is a transition laterally in the beginning of the downswing, it just doesn't have to be a conscious bump......

[Swingtheclub]

When you bump the hip you create axis tilt which drops the right shoulder on plane.

 

 

To each his own. When I bump that hip it's death for me. It creates a lateral slide and an extreme right shoulder drop/fat shot.

 

All that's in my head at the top is flat downswing, TURN (which feels like a twist for me, but that's my problem :wub: )

 

 

For MOST good players it's a NECESSITY to "bump".......but the bump causes all kinds of INconsistency and problems if not rehearsed/ingrained and timed perfectly........please don't MISunderstand me, there is a transition laterally in the beginning of the downswing, it just doesn't have to be a conscious bump......

 

Lol now you have confused me Slice.

 

When I was learning to swing the golf club I indeed was taught to make a concious bump I remember working on it .

 

Years later it became subconcious. When I was having some swing problems at one time I started conciously bumping thinking I was not and really got messed up. What I am saying is I know it happens and I do not have to think about it.

 

But I can not imagine teaching someone to swing without teaching them the bump its suttle but necessary in my opinion.

 

I imagine the slight turning of the left hip accomplishes the same thing never really thought about it that deeply. Now you come along and say it happens but it does not need to be concious.

 

we learn in a councious state we do in and unconcious state true?

[dlygrisse]

When you bump the hip you create axis tilt which drops the right shoulder on plane.

The top red line is where the right shoulder started

 

 

But, you do NOT have to "bump"........ :yess: It WILL take care of itself IF you SET UP correctly and took it back correctly......

 

And yes, the right shoulder does work down plane, but, it's reacting to the LEFT SIDE "clearing"/"pulling".......IF ya' got it back correctly and stretched it a bit...... :wub: ......doesn't work OVER where it went back, but, in the best swings it doesn't work UNDER either.......but under is normally a LOT better than over...... :yes:

So what starts the downswing? if I pull with my left side I tend to pull a lot of shots, if I drive the right shoulder I tend to push, and quite frankley it feels all wrong. If I try to bump the hips I tend to slide too much. Trying to figure out how to let my downswing "take care of it's self"

[slicefixer]

When you bump the hip you create axis tilt which drops the right shoulder on plane.

 

 

To each his own. When I bump that hip it's death for me. It creates a lateral slide and an extreme right shoulder drop/fat shot.

 

All that's in my head at the top is flat downswing, TURN (which feels like a twist for me, but that's my problem :wub: )

 

 

For MOST good players it's a NECESSITY to "bump".......but the bump causes all kinds of INconsistency and problems if not rehearsed/ingrained and timed perfectly........please don't MISunderstand me, there is a transition laterally in the beginning of the downswing, it just doesn't have to be a conscious bump......

 

Lol now you have confused me Slice.

 

When I was learning to swing the golf club I indeed was taught to make a concious bump I remember working on it .

 

Years later it became subconcious. When I was having some swing problems at one time I started conciously bumping thinking I was not and really got messed up. What I am saying is I know it happens and I do not have to think about it.

 

But I can not imagine teaching someone to swing without teaching them the bump its suttle but necessary in my opinion.

 

I imagine the slight turning of the left hip accomplishes the same thing never really thought about it that deeply. Now you come along and say it happens but it does not need to be concious.

 

we learn in a councious state we do in and unconcious state true?

 

 

MOST do have to "bump"........my guy's don't.......it's part of the "unwinding" in that you get yourself set up correctly, wind up correctly, and stretched out correctly.......and it just happens as part of the "letting go of the stretch"..........but MOST good golfers and with MOST swing methods you MUST "bump"......I just figured out a way so that it just happens without the player being aware of it and reduces the amount of lateral movement to a minimum........ :yess:

[slicefixer]

When you bump the hip you create axis tilt which drops the right shoulder on plane.

The top red line is where the right shoulder started

 

 

But, you do NOT have to "bump"........ :yess: It WILL take care of itself IF you SET UP correctly and took it back correctly......

 

And yes, the right shoulder does work down plane, but, it's reacting to the LEFT SIDE "clearing"/"pulling".......IF ya' got it back correctly and stretched it a bit...... :wub: ......doesn't work OVER where it went back, but, in the best swings it doesn't work UNDER either.......but under is normally a LOT better than over...... :yes:

So what starts the downswing? if I pull with my left side I tend to pull a lot of shots, if I drive the right shoulder I tend to push, and quite frankley it feels all wrong. If I try to bump the hips I tend to slide too much. Trying to figure out how to let my downswing "take care of it's self"

 

 

I'd have to see footage to be sure.......but is simply sounds as if the "parts" to your swing aren't conducive to working properly together........in other words, the arms/club plane/positioning MUST match the type of pivot........if they don't then all kinds of inconsistent results occur........it becomes about "timing" and that's hard to maintain from day to day........the great thing is this, there doesn't have to be a zillion parts, just a few and they are simple and reasonably easy to ingrain given UNDERSTANDING, a good "map," time, and patience.......post some footage........ :)

[irishfight4it]

ha... i wish hebron stuck to his guns and still taught this way, technically..... his method now is 180 degrees different

 

Sad to hear it if he's changed........his book really helped me to understand 5 Lessons a LOT better.....plus video footage, etc.

 

 

 

Yea slice, I have a book of yes I have yet to read... I was excited to see his seminars when he came to my school, my instructor told us how his technical knowledge of the swing is almost unmantched, and even Mr. Hebron himself talked about how the physics of the swing fascinated him, but after lhis seminar, it is apparent he doesn't teach techniaclly at all anymore... he teaches "self-learning" which is understandable, but his thing now is to get the player to hit good shots anyway possible, for instance if you're hitting a big slice he'd say, well what makes you hit a slice... where you'd respond open clubface, out to in, etc.... and he'd respond, well eliminate one of those....

 

 

He also spent about 20minutes looking at my swing giving me a mini-lesson... I was less than pleased, but to each his own

[slicefixer]

ha... i wish hebron stuck to his guns and still taught this way, technically..... his method now is 180 degrees different

 

Sad to hear it if he's changed........his book really helped me to understand 5 Lessons a LOT better.....plus video footage, etc.

 

 

 

Yea slice, I have a book of yes I have yet to read... I was excited to see his seminars when he came to my school, my instructor told us how his technical knowledge of the swing is almost unmantched, and even Mr. Hebron himself talked about how the physics of the swing fascinated him, but after lhis seminar, it is apparent he doesn't teach techniaclly at all anymore... he teaches "self-learning" which is understandable, but his thing now is to get the player to hit good shots anyway possible, for instance if you're hitting a big slice he'd say, well what makes you hit a slice... where you'd respond open clubface, out to in, etc.... and he'd respond, well eliminate one of those....

 

 

He also spent about 20minutes looking at my swing giving me a mini-lesson... I was less than pleased, but to each his own

 

 

Well, I hate to hear that........can't speak for him, etc. However, that's why I teach the way that I do......."you improve a persons fundamentals and IMPACT ZONE and they WILL get better"........ :wub:

[Texsport]

Slicefixer, would that have something to do with swinging into a braced right leg instead of onto the right leg, in the backswing?

 

Texsport

[hayam]

SF, so you mean there isn't a secondary Axis tilt in your student's swing?

 

Ok.. what confuses me,, which inside moves the outside? ... The left shoulder or the right shoulder is the inside?...

[KevCarter]

SF, so you mean there isn't a secondary Axis tilt in your student's swing?

 

Ok.. what confuses me,, which inside moves the outside? ... The left shoulder or the right shoulder is the inside?...

 

Hi Hayam,

 

In Hebron's book, the inside is the legs, hips, trunk, shoulders. The outside is the arms, hands, club.

 

Kevin

[Swingtheclub]

You people make golf so complicated and its not

 

 

Good grip

 

Good set up

 

Turn to the top setting the club at 45 degrees

 

Bump

 

 

Turn to your finish and let it go

 

Swing the club

 

Please how hard is this

[slicefixer]

Slicefixer, would that have something to do with swinging into a braced right leg instead of onto the right leg, in the backswing?

 

Texsport

 

 

Yessir......I call it "turning INTO your right side" (as that's what it FEELS like and their is a weight TRANSFER to the right) vs. "turning OVER your right side" which is by far the most common pivot amongst good players....... :wub:

[slicefixer]

SF, so you mean there isn't a secondary Axis tilt in your student's swing?

 

Ok.. what confuses me,, which inside moves the outside? ... The left shoulder or the right shoulder is the inside?...

 

 

Yes, but not much.......:wub:

[Lake]

SF, so you mean there isn't a secondary Axis tilt in your student's swing?

 

Ok.. what confuses me,, which inside moves the outside? ... The left shoulder or the right shoulder is the inside?...

 

Hayam,

 

Check out Circle Path 10-23-E......used normally with "no axis tilt" and "arc of approach" 2-J-3 ....than watch Slice's kids on youtube :wub:

[shortgames]

SF, so you mean there isn't a secondary Axis tilt in your student's swing?

 

Ok.. what confuses me,, which inside moves the outside? ... The left shoulder or the right shoulder is the inside?...

 

 

Yes, but not much.......;)

Not much with irons maybe, but driver? You HAVE to if you want the shoulders anywhere near on plane because of the more upright posture.

[slicefixer]

SF, so you mean there isn't a secondary Axis tilt in your student's swing?

 

Ok.. what confuses me,, which inside moves the outside? ... The left shoulder or the right shoulder is the inside?...

 

 

Yes, but not much.......:wub:

Not much with irons maybe, but driver? You HAVE to if you want the shoulders anywhere near on plane because of the more upright posture.

 

 

I didn't make myself clear enough........yes there is obviously a change in axis tilt......but, it's kept a minimum, no matter the club......and secondly everything is designed around the change in tilt "just happening" rather than being a conscious thought of "bumping," etc........I get in too big of a hurry answering sometimes.....:yess:

[slicefixer]

SF, so you mean there isn't a secondary Axis tilt in your student's swing?

 

Ok.. what confuses me,, which inside moves the outside? ... The left shoulder or the right shoulder is the inside?...

 

Hayam,

 

Check out Circle Path 10-23-E......used normally with "no axis tilt" and "arc of approach" 2-J-3 ....than watch Slice's kids on youtube :wub:

 

 

Hey lake, I heard there's a fire down at the lodge so ya' better get down there muh pronto as I'd hate for the consecration robes, Mo hair, pig's blood, and paddles to be destroyed........(hehehehe)

[Jim_0068]

Blah, thread's too long to read but here's the reality:

 

Bad players and majority of amatuers:

 

1) They don't have an on plane right shoulder.

2) No matter how you set them up or have them take it back, they will not bump their hips, they will not create axis tilt and they will not get their right shoulder downplane.

 

-----

 

Most bad players and amatuers can't do the above because most have bad pivots, don't know they are even supposed to do it (which is evident by some of the posts i've read) and ultimately open clubface syndrome

 

Good players and majority of + handicaps:

 

1) Create too much axis tilt

2) Get under plane

3) 1 and 2 are the reasons they fight hooks

 

That is why the "stack and tilt idea" works well for them because it keeps them from leaning too far right on the backswing and from getting underplane on the downswing; thus they hit it IMMEDIATELY better.

 

--------------------------------

 

So figure out which category you are in and find the right instructor to help you with it. Because i'm telling you all right now, if you have open clubface issues and you try and get that right shoulder down the plane with axis tilt you will start SHANKING the ball.

 

Have a good one :wub: