Passive vs. Active Release

[Dariusz J.]

The release concept is way to overcomplicated, IMHO. The best prove is this discussion here :cheesy:

 

It's enough to classify them depending on what happens with the clubface in the impact zone. We humans are built the way that there are no many possibilities left. In fact, there are only three pure models (and as usually, when there are pure models a mixture of them must be taken into account):

 

1. wrists themselves are rotating at the impact zone causing the clubhead turn in a horizontal plane - the clubhead is being delivered open to the swing arc at the beginning of the impact zone and is leaving the impact zone closed to the arc. The ball "feels" it is forced to be horizontally spun. Loft is not changing during impact. The crossover release.

 

2. wrists themselves are uncocking/unhinging at the impact zone causing a clubhead turn in a vertical plane - the clubhead is being delivered square to the arc and leaving it square to the arc as well. The ball "feels" it is forced to be vertically spun. Loft is changing during impact. The slap-hinge release.

 

3. wrist themselves are doing literally nothing in the impact zone - the clubhead is being delivered square to the arc and is leaving it square; the ball "feels" nothing **** apart from being hit according to the swing plane. Neither extra horizontal or vertical spin is being added. Loft is not changing during impact. The push release.

 

Last but not least - forearms must roll somewhere during the swing (so-called "swivel") because this is the way we are built. The crucial part in distinguishing a crossover release from the two other releases is to observe when it is happening. The support of the body turn, depending on the release, is also very important, but this would be a subject for a completely new thread.

 

Cheers

[Jeff Evans]

COOL!

[TEConnor]

i think im understanding... just a bit better. would that article happen to be the one witten by chuck cook about the two different exit releases and hitting the imaginary wall??

 

Correct. That's the one. I got distracted and couldn't get to it yesterday...but the visuals in that one are great.

 

Tim

[dfw1500]

Very good description Dariusz......I wouls add that in realtion to the heading at the start of the thread a passive release will feel like you are doing absolutely nothing with the club on the way through as you are allowing the rotation of your body control the golf club which allows physics to truly release the golf club and the wrists will be more like a push release with the shorter irons but will have some cross over release later into the through swing with the longer clubs but this is all due to the extra length of the club and the forces applid to it....this release will still 'feel passive' but the club will be releasing itself as the wrists and the club are unloading via physics and the body will never stop turning. ;)

 

The active release is when the plyer slows and stalls the torso movement during the through swing and makes the arms and wrists release the club causing the player to loose all of the angles oriinally set....I have a student off +1 UK with this type of release on his day he is awesome but on an off day he can go out and hit it everywhere we are close to changing this release and making him mget the full body rotation right through the hitting area. ;)

 

The active release is exactly this a release that you actively have to try and time to deliver the clubhead square to the ball as you slow everything down and manipulate the club through the ball.

 

Hope this helps

 

Cheers Dan

[greenail]

All Motions use CP/CF forces. Centripital force tends to make rotating bodies move toward the center of rotation.Centrifugal force tends to make rotating bodies move a way from center of rotation. Which, yes would release towards the target line to a point. Once the player reaches the bottom of his arc the club no longer travels down the target line but back, up and in on the arc. However, the clubhead is on the target line for a moment from impact to the bottom of the arc.

 

Um, there is no such thing as Centrifugal force.

 

http://regentsprep.org/Regents/physics/phy...rif/centrif.htm

[dfw1500]

All Motions use CP/CF forces. Centripital force tends to make rotating bodies move toward the center of rotation.Centrifugal force tends to make rotating bodies move a way from center of rotation. Which, yes would release towards the target line to a point. Once the player reaches the bottom of his arc the club no longer travels down the target line but back, up and in on the arc. However, the clubhead is on the target line for a moment from impact to the bottom of the arc.

 

Um, there is no such thing as Centrifugal force.

 

http://regentsprep.org/Regents/physics/phy...rif/centrif.htm

 

If using the term centrifugal as a force that does not happen or only happens as an excuse for odd behaviour then this explains easily why a centrifugal release causes the odd behiour of the clubhead through tyhe impact zone and makes it difficult to time any release especially if the centrifugal is the doiminating force.

 

I may have this slightly off but I am only around a 20hcp in physics terms ;)

[hoganfan924]

Very good description Dariusz......I wouls add that in realtion to the heading at the start of the thread a passive release will feel like you are doing absolutely nothing with the club on the way through as you are allowing the rotation of your body control the golf club which allows physics to truly release the golf club and the wrists will be more like a push release with the shorter irons but will have some cross over release later into the through swing with the longer clubs but this is all due to the extra length of the club and the forces applid to it....this release will still 'feel passive' but the club will be releasing itself as the wrists and the club are unloading via physics and the body will never stop turning. ;)

 

The active release is when the plyer slows and stalls the torso movement during the through swing and makes the arms and wrists release the club causing the player to loose all of the angles oriinally set....I have a student off +1 UK with this type of release on his day he is awesome but on an off day he can go out and hit it everywhere we are close to changing this release and making him mget the full body rotation right through the hitting area. ;)

 

The active release is exactly this a release that you actively have to try and time to deliver the clubhead square to the ball as you slow everything down and manipulate the club through the ball.

 

Hope this helps

 

Cheers Dan

 

Dan,

 

I like Henry Cotton's release type definitions as well, but also know that a cross-over release can be either active or passive. There are a lot of good players that actively "turn the toe down," "roll the forearms" through impact to put a little draw spin on the ball by consciously and deliberately using the forearm muscles to do it and there are other players that stall/brake their pivots and the arms simply react to that by passively crossing over. As long as the left elbow is kept down through impact, the arms will want to passively cross over if the body rotation slows. The players of the hickory shaft era were much more active crossover releasers (Tommy Armour is the best example I can think of - although his release was a blend of crossover and slap-hinge IMO).

 

Cheers,

 

HF

[hoganfan924]

All Motions use CP/CF forces. Centripital force tends to make rotating bodies move toward the center of rotation.Centrifugal force tends to make rotating bodies move a way from center of rotation. Which, yes would release towards the target line to a point. Once the player reaches the bottom of his arc the club no longer travels down the target line but back, up and in on the arc. However, the clubhead is on the target line for a moment from impact to the bottom of the arc.

 

Um, there is no such thing as Centrifugal force.

 

http://regentsprep.org/Regents/physics/phy...rif/centrif.htm

 

Yes there is (sort of)! However, Physicists don't like the term because centrifugal force only exists in what is called an accelerating or inertial frame of reference. And Physicists don't like to study things in an accelerating FoR. Well guess what, when you are rotating a club around you, you're in an accelerating frame of reference. That said, Physicists call it a fictitious force or false force because it only exists in conjunction with centripetal force, therefore is a layman's way of describing what would be the counter force to centripetal force.

 

An object that is moving on an arc exhibits an angular acceleration (because velocity is a vector quantity, therefore velocity is changing direction and creating an acceleration). And since F=MA as long as the object has a mass (like a clubhead) the angular acceleration of the clubhead x it's mass = the centripetal force exerted by the golfers arms. And since "every action has a reaction that is equal in magnitude, opposite in direction and collinear," the centripetal force of the arms pulling the clubhead in is counteracted by an outward pulling force, which is what people feel and describe as "centrifugal" force, as "technically incorrect" as it might be to a Physicist.

[PurePursuit]

He speaks! Where have you been hoganfan?? :P

[magnum184]

And in some cases, great body rotation can be coupled with an active release where the pelvis does not necessarily slow down or stop? Maybe a blend of the two?

[hoganfan924]

And in some cases, great body rotation can be coupled with an active release where the pelvis does not necessarily slow down or stop? Maybe a blend of the two?

 

Certainly possible! If you had a super weak grip, you might do that to square the clubface. With a neutral or strong grip, you'd probably hit lot's of hooks.

[dfw1500]

Very good description Dariusz......I wouls add that in realtion to the heading at the start of the thread a passive release will feel like you are doing absolutely nothing with the club on the way through as you are allowing the rotation of your body control the golf club which allows physics to truly release the golf club and the wrists will be more like a push release with the shorter irons but will have some cross over release later into the through swing with the longer clubs but this is all due to the extra length of the club and the forces applid to it....this release will still 'feel passive' but the club will be releasing itself as the wrists and the club are unloading via physics and the body will never stop turning. ;)

 

The active release is when the plyer slows and stalls the torso movement during the through swing and makes the arms and wrists release the club causing the player to loose all of the angles oriinally set....I have a student off +1 UK with this type of release on his day he is awesome but on an off day he can go out and hit it everywhere we are close to changing this release and making him mget the full body rotation right through the hitting area. ;)

 

The active release is exactly this a release that you actively have to try and time to deliver the clubhead square to the ball as you slow everything down and manipulate the club through the ball.

 

Hope this helps

 

Cheers Dan

 

Dan,

 

I like Henry Cotton's release type definitions as well, but also know that a cross-over release can be either active or passive. There are a lot of good players that actively "turn the toe down," "roll the forearms" through impact to put a little draw spin on the ball by consciously and deliberately using the forearm muscles to do it and there are other players that stall/brake their pivots and the arms simply react to that by passively crossing over. As long as the left elbow is kept down through impact, the arms will want to passively cross over if the body rotation slows. The players of the hickory shaft era were much more active crossover releasers (Tommy Armour is the best example I can think of - although his release was a blend of crossover and slap-hinge IMO).

 

Cheers,

 

HF

 

Hi HF,

 

I was trying to say exactly what you have stated above but seem to have got myself in abit of a muddle don't know how I have quite managed to do this....the stalling of the torso cases the release of the club but in my terminology this was an active release as the rotation broke down the club was forced to be released by the hands.......in the conscious cross over this is definately an active release as the arms release the club the pivot will slow slightly and they will turn the toe down.

 

What i was trying to say in my post was that with a longer club the arms will appear to cross later on into the swing but will have been very passive through the shot and they will have maintained the angle in the right arm right wrist into impact and let the club go left and had the upper left arm pinned to the chest through the impact area.

 

Cheers Dan

[magnum184]

Understood.

 

What about with a neutral grip? Having good body rotation with an active release is a good way to intentionally turn the ball right to left. Thoughts on this?

[dfw1500]

Understood.

 

What about with a neutral grip? Having good body rotation with an active release is a good way to intentionally turn the ball right to left. Thoughts on this?

 

this can be successful but can also be very inconsistent due to the timing issues in turning the toe down and knowing how mmuch to relative to your path and creates huge timing issues.

[hoganfan924]

Understood.

 

What about with a neutral grip? Having good body rotation with an active release is a good way to intentionally turn the ball right to left. Thoughts on this?

 

Personally, I don't find it a reliable method at all, too many snap hooks come into play. However, I know that there are extremely gifted golfers that can and do make it work. My local pro who's won some pretty big tournaments actively turns the toe down. I prefer to just move the ball back slightly in my stance, grip it slightly stronger then take a normal swing. But you still have to trust it, as some golfers looking down at that slightly shut face will instinctively hold off the face and hit a fade.

[greenail]

All Motions use CP/CF forces. Centripital force tends to make rotating bodies move toward the center of rotation.Centrifugal force tends to make rotating bodies move a way from center of rotation. Which, yes would release towards the target line to a point. Once the player reaches the bottom of his arc the club no longer travels down the target line but back, up and in on the arc. However, the clubhead is on the target line for a moment from impact to the bottom of the arc.

 

Um, there is no such thing as Centrifugal force.

 

http://regentsprep.org/Regents/physics/phy...rif/centrif.htm

 

Yes there is (sort of)! However, Physicists don't like the term because centrifugal force only exists in what is called an accelerating or inertial frame of reference. And Physicists don't like to study things in an accelerating FoR. Well guess what, when you are rotating a club around you, you're in an accelerating frame of reference. That said, Physicists call it a fictitious force or false force because it only exists in conjunction with centripetal force, therefore is a layman's way of describing what would be the counter force to centripetal force.

 

An object that is moving on an arc exhibits an angular acceleration (because velocity is a vector quantity, therefore velocity is changing direction and creating an acceleration). And since F=MA as long as the object has a mass (like a clubhead) the angular acceleration of the clubhead x it's mass = the centripetal force exerted by the golfers arms. And since "every action has a reaction that is equal in magnitude, opposite in direction and collinear," the centripetal force of the arms pulling the clubhead in is counteracted by an outward pulling force, which is what people feel and describe as "centrifugal" force, as "technically incorrect" as it might be to a Physicist.

 

Centrifugal force does not exist in an inertial frame of reference which is how golf swings are analyzed. As far as I know Newton wrote his laws for an inertial frame, not rotating which is where you'd find the debate for centrifugal.

 

Anyway, back on topic, the only thing keeping your club head from releasing is your hands and forearms pulling on it towards the center of the swing. The long drive guys talk about forearm strength being critical, and if you are going to create lag you will need to exert enough force on the club to counter the force you create accelerating the club with your big muscles.

[magnum184]

I find that changing grips to alternate ball flight can lead to more inconsistency. For me, just for me, I find it difficult to start the ball on the direction I want it to when I alter the grip. Maybe I'm fighting with my hands to get into familiar positions. Neutral grip gets me to square it up, but with a stronger grip, I try to get into the same neutral position and my face is closed.

 

I don't change the ball position. I just try to visualize what I am trying to do with the clubhead to the ball. When I try to draw the ball, I try to attack it from the inside, make contact with the face open, rotate the face just enough through impact to spin the ball right to left. My hands and arms are very active through the delivery but I always turn or rotate hard and left through the shot. What is important for me is that the ball comes off a touch to the right of my target and then draws back to the left. I just never, never, never want to see my ball start left of my target and then draw. Take out the left side of the course.

 

Even fading the ball, I want it to start a straight at or a touch right of where I aim and then fall to the target. I still visualize attacking the ball from the inside, but I am much more passive through the strike with the hands and arms while still rotating fast to the left. I try not to let the toe rotate as much as a draw swing?

 

Does any of this make sense? I feel like I use both releases at different times.

[magnum184]

I stress the word feel because I dare to even say I am 100% sure what is going on at the bottom of the swing. And many times, what one is feeling can be very far from reality.

[Jeff Evans]

Feelings are Subjective and Unique to the Individual PLAYER!

[irishfight4it]

sergio is a passive release player..... but check out the april 2008 golf digest article with chuck cook... handle to the wall is passive release, clubhead to the wall is active...

[magnum184]

Yes, Sergio is. But mainly when he is fading the ball, which he really likes to do. A little more active when he draws it.

 

These releases are describing how passive or active the arms and hands are during the delivery through impact.

[TEConnor]

sergio is a passive release player..... but check out the april 2008 golf digest article with chuck cook... handle to the wall is passive release, clubhead to the wall is active...

 

It's not a perfect article (around page 50 of the GD w/ Fred Couples on the cover...Masters Preview edition), and I'm sure we could pick it to death, but as you state (handle to the wall versus clubhead to the wall) the article visually expresses what we are talking about here, in general.

 

A little over a year ago, one of the great breakthroughs that I personally had in making the change from a very active release to a more passive one was to utilize similar "exit strategy" imagery as shown in that article and work backward. Basically, I did a lot of very small swings starting in a "post impact" position (with the handle up against the wall instead of the club head) and pulling back to a good "9:00" position (and back through impact). In a way I might have been doing a little 9:00 to 3:00 drill, but just practicing the positions. If I lose the "low and left release" feeling on the course sometimes it really helps me to think about the positions "at the wall," like in that article.

 

Cheers,

Tim

[magnum184]

The imagery of "low and left" is supurb.

 

However, it is only a great image if the player has the club in a good delivery position.

 

Sometimes, after reading these articles, I feel awful for players who try to incorporate an image such as "low and left" when they are out of position on the downswing.

 

But, when the club is in a good delivery position, firing low and left can be very helpful. Depending on what mistakes the player has, of course.

[TEConnor]

The imagery of "low and left" is supurb.

 

However, it is only a great image if the player has the club in a good delivery position.

 

Sometimes, after reading these articles, I feel awful for players who try to incorporate an image such as "low and left" when they are out of position on the downswing.

 

But, when the club is in a good delivery position, firing low and left can be very helpful. Depending on what mistakes the player has, of course.

 

I think that is an unwritten assumption we make about releases (ie, their worthless without a reasonable position coming into impact). You will see that a LOT of discussion on here is about the positions coming into impact (and that article mentions the same) but if you have no exit strategy it can all fall apart as well. Best to cover both bases.

 

I just reread that, are we talking about Golf or the War?

 

Cheers,

Tim

[magnum184]

Here is what I mean by players using both releases in order to shape the ball. But it is just one way to do things I suppose.

 

Adam Scott

 

Active Release (Draw) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H2z9zDPNCQ

 

Passive Release (Fade) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiDEDpMZxFI...feature=related

[rony]

This is what has always worked for me. As per my signature line, I keep it simple. Before each shot, I gently swing the club I'm going to hit from 3:00 to 9:00 with a light grip pressure and observe the club head "Squaring Up". All clubs will square up and you will release properly if you are not squeezing the daylights out of them. Then I just line up my shot and pull the trigger! I have a smooth tempo in-square-in swing and always hit a soft draw. If I want to apply a slight fade, I grip a little tighter to impede the club face from squaring and gently cut the ball with a more out-in swing path. My ball striking mechanics are good, and the only swing thought I employ when on the course is: Light Grip Pressure! Give it a try. ;)

[mainegolfa]

Here is what I mean by players using both releases in order to shape the ball. But it is just one way to do things I suppose

 

the terms active and passive release relate more to swing plane than shot shape.

think of it like this: A player who swings very upright has the club moving through the impact zone on a slight in to in arc and stays close to the target line for a good period. but when the club reaches hip high on the downswing the face isn't square yet. this requires the hands and arms release to get the club square at impact and further more continue rotating after the shot (newton's third law). Hence active release.

the passive release swing references a rotary motion where the in to in arc is more extreme, But from hip high on the downswing, the clubface is already square to the plane of swing. this means that the golfer simply has to keep turning through the shot and the club will square up with no manipulation of the hands. hence passive release.

I doubt very highly that many(if any) tour pros toggle between these two methods within a round of golf.

And, to the best of my knowledge, adam scott is an "active releaser" if thats how you want to label him.

[hoganfan924]

Here is what I mean by players using both releases in order to shape the ball. But it is just one way to do things I suppose

 

the terms active and passive release relate more to swing plane than shot shape.

think of it like this: A player who swings very upright has the club moving through the impact zone on a slight in to in arc and stays close to the target line for a good period. but when the club reaches hip high on the downswing the face isn't square yet. this requires the hands and arms release to get the club square at impact and further more continue rotating after the shot (newton's third law). Hence active release.

the passive release swing references a rotary motion where the in to in arc is more extreme, But from hip high on the downswing, the clubface is already square to the plane of swing. this means that the golfer simply has to keep turning through the shot and the club will square up with no manipulation of the hands. hence passive release.

I doubt very highly that many(if any) tour pros toggle between these two methods within a round of golf.

And, to the best of my knowledge, adam scott is an "active releaser" if thats how you want to label him.

 

At hip high in the downswing, Hogan had the clubface very open to the swing arc and he was the consummate "passive releaser" IMO. The recently popularized notion that Hogan squared the face to the arc early in the downswing is completely false, and I've seen plenty of video and photo evidence both from before "Power Golf" and after that confirms it 100%.

 

 

[mainegolfa]

Neat..... I wouldn't argue that. however, Ben Hogan is not the only golfer to use a "rotary" swing, if thats what you want to call it. And that being said I wasn't citing him specifically and would'nt presume to know everything about his swing. nor do I think it is perfect, how ever functional/beautiful.

 

I'm sure that we could agree that there is more face rotation to the plane in an upright swing than a flatter one, in the impact zone. which ultimatley is my point. for the record I don't like the terms active and passive release anyway. just trying to clear up some confusion.

[hoganfan924]

I'm sure that we could agree that there is more face rotation to the plane in an upright swing than a flatter one, in the impact zone. which ultimatley is my point. for the record I don't like the terms active and passive release anyway. just trying to clear up some confusion.

 

On that we can certainly agree, 100%!

 

BTW, a lot of great golfers of the 1950's had "rotary/flat" swings and "released left" and I've never seen video or photo evidence that any of them squared the face to the swing arc early in their downswings. Seen plenty of evidence to the contrary in fact. IMO, trying to get "flat swingers" to deliberately square the face to the arc early is a good way to destroy their swings.