Stack & Tilt DVD Content Discussion Thread -- Andy Plummer/Mike Bennett

[Asleep]

I thought it would be a good idea to open the discussion on the actual content of Mike Bennett's and Andy Plummer's Stack & Tilt DVDs as offered on the Medicus website: Link to The Stack & Tilt Golf Swing DVD on Medicus.com.

 

Disc 1: The Stack & Tilt Swing........1:09

Disc 2: Stack & Tilt - In Depth........1:15

Disc 3: Analyzing Your Shot...........0:37

Disc 4: The Short Game................0:28

 

 

First Impressions

 

Andy & Mike do a credible job hosting the video, but no one in Hollywood is in any way threatened by their performance. :) There are just a few awkward moments and some adjective challenged dialogue, but the content comes across in a consumable way.

 

There is a good amount of in depth discussion about some technical aspects of the swing --- I can't recall anything that is glossed over (something I can't say for other instructional videos). This is a DVD you will be rewinding/replaying segments of to gain a better understanding of the concepts. It's technical in nature and I applaud their presentation of the details in, well, detail.

 

Some of The Golfing Machine basics are explained/illustrated as needed to support the discussion --- a welcome addition for those who have not been exposed to "The Flying Wedge", "Pressure Points", "Accumulators", "Arm Plane", "Hand Plane", "Basic Motion", etc. Very worthwhile stuff here on the geometry of the golf swing that I've paid much more for to learn.

 

 

In my judgment, Plummer & Bennett's Stack & Tilt DVDs are at the top of the list of "must see" golf videos --- second only to Hogan vs. Snead @ Houston Country Club 1965 -- Shell's Wonderful World of Golf (Hogan's lesson/slow-mo swing is priceless, imo.) Anything The Stack & Tilt Golf Swing lacks in "polish" is easily overcome by the depth of content. A good introductory video that I believe most golfers will learn from, especially those who haven't invested a lot of time with a qualified instructor.

 

 

Certainly okay to disagree, but let's keep the discussion civil.

 

Mods feel free to attach other relevant threads/posts.

 

[dana dahlquist]

That post was so nice and clean...Wish I could do that..:)

[joecollege]

Great post and feedback.

 

Getting my copy and cant wait to use it. Now if they do instuctional tours like Pelz for a zillion dollars....well maybe not a zillion, I would attend. Hope they consider.

[Machinegolfer]

I agree, certainly a must see for ALL golfers...i like the spectrums...i have them around here somewhere :)

[triplebogeyblues]

I found this forum in searching for stack and tilt DVD information, so this is my first post.

 

I received my DVD's 2 days ago. I ordered them a few months back on the website, and never got a confirmation email or anything, so I wasn't even sure if my order went through, so I was surprised to receive a package in the mail the other day. To tell you the truth, I completely forgot I ordered them, so I wasn't exactly waiting in anticipation for them.

 

So I start watching the first DVD, and the first thing I realize is that Mike and Andy have absolutely no personality, and probably should have gotten someone else to "market" it.

 

There is no doubt that they explain everything about the swing in detail, but I have to say that I was a little dissappointed at the lack of drills/checkpoints. They did say that the shaft should intersect the right bicept on the backswing, so I suppose that was one checkpoint.

 

I am not sure if there are any other DVD's included in the system, or if the 4 DVD's are the only ones they have. The credit card I used to pay for them has since expired, so if they are planning to bill me for 4 installments of $34, they are out of luck.

 

Does anyone know if they are planning more DVD's? I am not sure exactly how much more they could talk about this swing, except maybe including drills, etc...

[ZBigStick]

Great Original Post.

 

Thanks for the review. I hope that they print a book as I find it easier to review than finding the DVD chapter and rewinding constantly.

 

I had planned on ordering from their website until I discovered the hidden multiple charges.

 

I am sill struggling with the $100 price tag for DVD series. Wish I had an expiring CC to use. (If that protects you from future charges?)

[Putt4doh]

Take my experience FWIW, but I punched up their website and proceeded to fill out the info to get rolling. Well, I got distracted with work or family or something else that just gets in the way golf. In short, I didn't end up ordering anything.

 

Then about a week ago, I get a call from someone following up on my visit to their website. Unfortunately for him, it was real bad timing for me. He kicks off the usual tele-marketing schpeal which is ok b/c I'm actually interested. I tell him that I'm interested but I just got home from a business trip....he replies "Well ,we can get going with credit card (really? you accept credit cards? I'm shocked)". I reply that I'm interested but my wallet is downstairs (it was) and it was a bad time for me and asked if he could call be back tomorrow. And that's where things went wrong (at least for me).

 

Dude cops a big 'ol attitude about calling me back! Saying things like: "I don't want to call you back if it's just going to be a waste of my time".

 

After he's done, I told him I was no longer interested and not to call me--at which point I hung up.

 

Take it for what it's worth, but the Stack and Tilt videos could turn me into a tour pro but I don't want them now. Well, if they could guarantee a tour card, then maybe : )

[triplebogeyblues]

To give a little background on the content of the DVD. I can speak for the first DVD.

 

They start with the setup, then the backswing, then the downswing, then the followthrough.

They then go on to talk about how everyone is so concerned with the "fundamentals" of the golf swing. They mention that all great players have different ways of implementing the fundamentals of the swing, such as grip, etc....so there is not really a right way to do it.

 

They then go on to talk about what all great players do have in common, such as hitting the ground at the same point every time. They also show Mike take 17 swings in a row hitting the ground in the same spot every time. Pretty useless stuff there.

 

I wish the DVD were more in Jim Mcleans 8-step golf swing DVD format. Breaking down each part of the swings, and giving "death moves" for each part, etc...

[davel]

I just received the DVD's yesterday and tend to agree the reviews given. They doing a good job in describing the swing and showing you it.

 

It is however lacking drills or a building block approach to build the swing in pieces since this is the most complicated swing model I have ever seen. It is quite brilliant!!

 

For the people who mentioned a book the information I had was the book was supposed to come out before the DVD's. On one segment of the DVd's they even mention the book. I do not have a update on when the book will come out. I will try to get that infomation from someone I know with medicus. The problem is medicus has a lot of problems releasing products so even if I get a date for the book there are no gurantees they will me them.

 

Dave

[logan91201]

I watched the DVDs and the content is spot on. I've spent a lot of time working with andy and we worked on everything covered in the DVDs. They even have a dvd that goes into the invaluable content regarding how to analyze your shots so you can fix yourself. Andy's longterm goal for all his students is to no longer need his input.

 

As for their personalities, yes they aren't game show hosts or hollywood stars (why would you want that?). The DVD's are raw. They are two guys talking about their swing method, and thats it. If you want something cheesed up there are plenty of options for you, but this isn't one of them.

 

As for the new guy who finds the content useless and wishes it was in Jim Mcleans 8step swing format, I think you found your soloution. Go watch the 8 step swing. The content in this videos is exactly what these guys are teaching their pros, and is an excellent way to get started. Unlike the articles, I think you can actually learn this material from the DVDs.

[upanddown]

I've got mine.. I would say for anyone like me that is doing S&T based on the GD article, this will really help fill in holes for you. They do a great job of explaining how it works but its a little too Golf Machine (Flying Wedges, etc) for my taste. I like how they validate the key points of S&T by showing pics of top pros over history making the same moves. I also like how they point out "the fundamentals" really aren't fundamental. The "short game" DVD is just chipping but very helpful. Overall, very helpful for really learning S&T but clearly thrown together quickly.

[tradekid]

They then go on to talk about what all great players do have in common, such as hitting the ground at the same point every time. They also show Mike take 17 swings in a row hitting the ground in the same spot every time. Pretty useless stuff there.

I respectfully disagree. One of the best parts of the DVD set is watching Bennett hit full shots. That's one good swing and you couldn't go wrong with studying each component. I think hitting the ground in the same spot swing after swing is something everyone should strive for.

[triplebogeyblues]

Let me apologize if I have come off a little "disrespectful" to the content of this DVD. That was not the intent at all.

 

Logan, I have studied the 8-step swing DVD, and was not saying the stack and tilt should be the 8-step swing. I was just noting the positives of how Mclean gets his teaching points across to his students by giving "death moves" and checkpoints for each part of the golf swing.

[Asleep]

Let me apologize if I have come off a little "disrespectful" to the content of this DVD. That was not the intent at all....

You're cool, no worries.

[trickyric]

I was disappointed in the short game portion, no sand shot or flop just variations of chipping and pitching which were actually similiar to Pelz. The pitching seemed a little weak in the descriptions, and the lack of camera angles makes it hard to decifer what they meant some times.

I have to watch the swing part again but there is a lot of Blah Blah and my ADHD kicks in and I have to go back and review what I zoned out on.

[logan91201]

Yea I agree the short game portion was a touch dissapointing. They did however go over the flop shot. It was essentially a basic motion with the ball more forward, face more open, some added thrust in the backswing depending on the distance needed, and a short arc follow through to add loft and get it out of longer grass.

[logan91201]

Let me apologize if I have come off a little "disrespectful" to the content of this DVD. That was not the intent at all.

 

Logan, I have studied the 8-step swing DVD, and was not saying the stack and tilt should be the 8-step swing. I was just noting the positives of how Mclean gets his teaching points across to his students by giving "death moves" and checkpoints for each part of the golf swing.

 

 

No sweat. I get a little too defensive when I feel the material is wrongly bashed. But we are entitled to our opinions, and that is no different for you. I do however feel they talked a lot about the common mistakes that many players make and how to look out for them in the "indepth" disc. I knew pretty much everything on it before I watched it, and I've watched it 5 times now and I still get alot out of it each time.

[varsityhacker]

Just want to see if I am the only one that has a problem with their DVD's. The 1 and 3 disk have sections when the video becomes distorted, the picture becomes shaky. It's not a huge problem, but I called Medicus to see if this was problem that has been reported which they said no. However, before I ship them back to have them ship me new disks I just wanted to verify that I am the only one having this issue. That would suck to ship them off just to get new disks that did the same thing.

[rexfan]

I see the same thing with poor quality video but have not contacted Medicus yet. The chipping is pretty much a waste of time. Didn't get any new ideas there. Lack of drills is disappointing but I have the original Golf Digest article which should fill in nicely as someone already mentioned.

[triplebogeyblues]

I haven't had any problems with the quality of the video. My guess would be that it is caused by them stacking all 4 DVD's on top of each other without any protection between them. I could see how some could get scratched up in shipping.

[varsityhacker]

Interesting that some have the problem and some don't. Thanks to all that responded to my question I appreciate the quick responses. Guess I will just keep the DVD's I have for now. The packaging could have been much better and for the record there is nothing physically wrong with the DVD's or my eyes!

[w8liftr]

I finally received my DVD's yesterday. I have watched the first disc and found the information very helpful. I will finish the set tonight.

[Asleep]

...The 1 and 3 disk have sections when the video becomes distorted, the picture becomes shaky. It's not a huge problem...

Same issue here.

 

I found ~4 instances on Disc 1 and ~1/2 on Disc 3.

 

Agree, not too distracting but since we paid for good transfers...

[Deadpool_25]

I finally got the DVDs and sat and watched them all the way through.

 

Overall, I like them. If they'd done a bit better production, I'd love them, but that's just me. For example a spiffier introduction, maybe some highlights of their players hitting shots or something, would have been welcome. Better production isn't remotely necessary though and in terms PURELY of the teaching/learning content, I think they're excellent. A spiffy intro would get me a bit more pumped up about learning, but I didn't really need that I guess. Instead, they get right into the swing. This is not necessarily a bad thing. There's something to be said for getting right to the point.

 

I don't know their backgrounds, and don't feel like searching right now, but they are obviously well versed in TGM and seem to have a good understanding of its concepts (I'm just learning about it myself using the book so take that as a TGM beginner's point of view).

 

The first DVD, The Stack And Tilt Swing, is just them covering the basics of the swing. This was a very good overview of the method. One thing to note is that by "centers" they mean two points: the center of your shoulder line and the center of your hips. Also, though this is a "basics" DVD it does cover the swing in pretty decent detail.

 

The second DVD, Stack And Tilt In Depth, goes back over elements of the method but gets into some more advanced terminology and concepts.

 

The third DVD, Analyzing your Shot, does a bit of faults and fixes type analysis. Basically, they cover hitting it thin and fat, hooking it and slicing it. Basically it boils down to their basic theme which seems to be that most swing faults can originate with having your weight (centers) behind the ball.

 

The 4th DVD is on short game and I wasn't too impressed with it. Not that the method seems bad, just that I didn't think I got very much if anything from it (I'm using the Utley method and don't feel the need to change). One thing to note is that the S&T short game stuff is really very conventional.

 

I think it's beneficial to watch all 3 of the main DVDs straight away (and the 4th if you feel like it), then go back through DVD 1 before going out to work on it.

 

They did go over the spine angle just a little bit too much. I get that it's important but they go over it quite a few times and not really saying it much differently. I was thinking: okay, i get it already. I think others have reviewed it fairly well, so I'll finish up by giving what I think is a very basic overview of the method.

 

Their basic thoughts are:

• Weight forward (setup 55/45 favoring the left then progresses to 95/5 left--never gets more weight on right than left)
  
• Hands in (meaning the move IN on the backswing as opposed to down the line--note they also move back and up)
  
• Shoulder down (the left shoulder moves DOWN on the backswing as opposed to AROUND--think steep shoulders)
  
• Hips forward on the finish (the hips move steadily forward during the swing--very much a lateral slide forward)
  

Some things I'd like to add:

 

They like the centers stacked at address, and the center between the shoulders STAYS over the ball through impact. The center betwen the hips stays put on the backswing, but moves forward during the downswing. It doesn't shoot forward, it just moves that way IN SYNC with the rest of the downswing. This creates their version of spine tilt away from the target. In the "conventional swing" the shoulders' center usually starts (and remains) in back of the ball, while the hips' center either stays put where you start it or moves behind the ball a bit on the backswing, then moves forward as weight shifts in the downswing. Their point is that their method results in much more consistent contact via hitting the ground in the same spot every time. The theory seems quite logical.

 

Another important part of the method is the Flying Wedge. This is explained quite well in the DVD (and in its origin: TGM). The Flying Wedge is the angle created by your right forearm and the shaft when you bend (cup) your right wrist. This position starts at address, as the right wrist should naturally be bent at address. This angle, once it's set, should be maintained through impact and all the way into the finish. A related thought is: once the left wrist gets Flat on the backswng...leave it that way through the finish. This is very important.

 

That's just the basics and there's much more valuable information in the DVD set, but that should get you started.

 

 

As to helping with my game:

 

I haven't hit a ball yet after watching the DVDs. However, I did try the system a little two different times long ago: once after reading the Golf Digest article, and another time after a convo with a mini-tour pro who seemed pretty familiar with the method (not sure if via first or second hand info from Mike and Andy). Those two times I had some limited success in the form of AMAZINGLY solid shots all the way through the bag. These were the types of shots that, even as a low handicapper (.8) and fairly decent ball striker, still made me blink in surprise, then grin like the Cheshire Cat. I think my exact words were, "holy s#!t! WTF was THAT?!" Those results faded quickly--this didn't surprise me as I didn't really even know all the basics of the system, let alone understand them; I just had some very basic ideas in mind. I'm curious whether now, knowing much more about the system and understanding what they're trying to accomplish, I'd have the same results AND be able to sustain them. We'll see tomorrow when I hit the range for a session.

 

Oh. I had no technical problems with the DVDs at all. EDIT OOPS, I see those problems now. Not major, but still a bit annoying.

[wkennerson]

I have watched this entire DVD set and while I find most of it very informative, I have become very perplexed over the "Flying Wedge".

 

Am I correct that Stack&Tilt swings do not release the club through the hitting zone? I have a conventional swing right now that I have worked very hard on with lessons and practice. It has been my understanding to this point that the "release" is where valuable club head speed can be gained in the conventional swing. If the idea behind S&T is maintain that wedge through impact then is that why most of the tour players that have adopted this swing type are not the longest hitters on tour? Maybe I don't have a clear idea of what release really is either... which is very possible.

 

I only use tour players as a reference because I do not know anyone else that uses the Stack & Tilt method for comparison of distance.

 

I found the DVD's very informative even for the conventional swing since they discuss not only what makes their method work but the faults and causes encountered during the "conventional" swing.

[Deadpool_25]

I have watched this entire DVD set and while I find most of it very informative, I have become very perplexed over the "Flying Wedge".

 

Am I correct that Stack&Tilt swings do not release the club through the hitting zone? I have a conventional swing right now that I have worked very hard on with lessons and practice. It has been my understanding to this point that the "release" is where valuable club head speed can be gained in the conventional swing. If the idea behind S&T is maintain that wedge through impact then is that why most of the tour players that have adopted this swing type are not the longest hitters on tour? Maybe I don't have a clear idea of what release really is either... which is very possible.

 

I only use tour players as a reference because I do not know anyone else that uses the Stack & Tilt method for comparison of distance.

 

I found the DVD's very informative even for the conventional swing since they discuss not only what makes their method work but the faults and causes encountered during the "conventional" swing.

 

The S&T guys DO release. It's important to realize what a "proper" release is though. One thing that it does NOT incorporate (according to TGM) is a BENT (cupped) left wrist. If you bend your left wrist through the release you've "flipped" it and made an improper release. You still might manage to hit a good shot, but you've done it making a mistake of the first order.

 

Mike Bennett stated that their system is not designed to be the most accurate or longest method. Rather it is designed to be the best combination of long and accurate. Someone posted a youtube link to that quote somewhere on this forum but I can't remember where. Maybe try searching youtube for Mike Bennett if you want to hear it "from the horse's mouth."

 

EDIT to add that the Flying Wedge is applicable in ANY good golf swing...not just S&T.

EDIT2: Here's the link I referred to. The comment's I'm talking about are at the end of the clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBdiDlIyCgA...feature=related

[Deadpool_25]

Range session yesterday.

 

I hit short irons and wedges mostly and had some success. Quite a bit actually. My normal miss, a fat shot, is gone. That's huge for me. I still need to work on getting my arms IN on the backswing, and steepening my shoulder plane. I think I might've worked those parts out fiddling around later in the evening at home but we'll see next time I'm on the range.

 

I did hit a couple of 5-irons and they were fairly low. Not much TOO low, but I'd like to be able to hit them a bit higher than that normally. I'll have to go through the DVDs again when I get a chance later, but can anyone say how you control trajectory with the S&T swing? Setup changes or what?

 

Are Mike and Andy settled in anywhere yet? Even if they are, I doubt I could afford their rates. :rolleyes: If anyone can point me in the direction of a teacher familiar with S&T in the SE (MS, AL, N. FL) I'd appreciate it. I know there are a few TGM guys around, notably Ron Gring in AL (heard good things about him) and Hoppy Smith in MS (haven't heard anything about him...got his name of the TGM site)--not sure if they are familiar with S&T though.

[Kerry_Bunker]

"Lake" knows this stuff inside-out and is located in Southern Tennessee. He will show you how to control trajectory.

 

With other instructors you may need to first cover what is S&T vs TGM vs MORAD etc. but if you are working with "Lake" you don't have to worry because he has all these weapons and more in his arsenal.

[Deadpool_25]

As to the poor quality video...I take it back. I see what you guys are talking about. I barely noticed it the first and second time through.

 

At some points the video kind of "buzzes" intermittently. It's slight and seems to have a rhythm to it--buzz, good, buzz, good, etc. I noticed it on disc 1 and haven't gone back over disc 3 again yet. Must be a problem in the whole run. As good as the DVDs are, and because I'm going to implement S&T in my game for a good long trial (at least), they're worth having but with the poor ordering process and quality issues, I might just send them back.

 

Thanks for the info on Lake (John). Tullahoma is about an 8 hour drive according to Google maps. That's not unreasonable at all, but not really a "day trip." I'll definitely keep it in mind though. Slicefixer is about the same distance away and that's a possibility too (though Lake seems more in tune with TGM which seems a better fit for the S&T method).

[Deadpool_25]

Here's another comment about the content.

 

Andy and Mike make a point of trying to debunk the traditional fundamentals. However I have an issue with this.

 

TRADITIONAL FUNDAMENTALS

• Grip
  
• Posture
  
• Stance
  
• Alignment
  
• Ball Position
  

STACK AND TILT FUNDAMENTALS

• Hitting the ground in the same place consistently
  
• Enough power to play the course in a reasonable number of strokes
  
• Having a predictable curvature (draw, fade, etc.)
  

My problem is that the traditional fundamentals are PROCESS based, while the stated S&T fundamentals are RESULTS based. It's completely an apples to oranges comparison.

 

Traditional fundamentals are supposed to enable you to achieve the results stated in the S&T fundamentals.

 

While there isn't one grip that works for all players, there are plenty of acceptable variations. Same with the other traditional fundamentals. Mike and Andy go through this part as if some instructor will just say, "you need an overlapping grip with the Vs pointed at your right shoulder." While that HAS been said, I think that's poor instruction of the fundamentals. More correct would be to use that as a starting point, then adjust as necessary. Thus the traditional fundamentals are, in my opinion, just starting points from which adjustments can and should be made as necessary.

 

I think the traditional fundamentals are just as applicable to the S&T swing as to any other pattern. You do need a good grip, posture, stance, and alignment; and you do have to pay attention to your ball position. Likewise the S&T fundamentals are just as applicable to any other pattern--they are the desired results from ANY pattern you choose.

 

I understand what Mike and Andy are trying to communicate, but I thought their presentation and comparison was poor. They could have chosen a better way to make their point.