What do you think about the "No women members allowed" at Augusta

[Jaylasvegas]

Just about all men cant join except a select few, and you dont see those guys complaining.

The reason that I, a man, isn't invited to join ANGC is because of my personal shortcomings (at least in the minds of the membership). On the other hand, no woman can be a member, not because of her real or perceived shortcomings, but because she is a woman. She is a member of a group over which she had no control at birth or after. No matter how accomplished, skilled, knowledgeable, or otherwise worthy, she could not be a member. This is the same status that Blacks had for many years. The same excuses that bar women from membership now were used to bar Blacks then. The membership of ANGC persisted in this travesty until they were shamed into the twentieth century. Let's hope that they are shamed into the twenty-first century before the next.

 

I have read on the pages of this very forum a quote of Thomas Jefferson or two, in support of one position or the other. I have one that I think may be appropriate to this discussion. It will have to be, for better or worse, my last word on this subject although I predict it will certainly not be the last word expended. Jefferson was ever the defender of liberty and, for his time, even a passionate voice for equality, even at the expense of all other virtues. He wrote:

 

It behooves every man who values liberty of conscience for himself, to resist invasions of it in the case of others: or their case may, by change of circumstances, become his own.

How would you or anyone for that matter know what the exact clubs requirements are?

 

its Private, the self entitlement in this country is pathetic

 

dont like the rules, good they were not designed for you

 

 

not to the person I quoted, just a random rambling

[stage1350]

Just about all men cant join except a select few, and you dont see those guys complaining.

The reason that I, a man, isn't invited to join ANGC is because of my personal shortcomings (at least in the minds of the membership). On the other hand, no woman can be a member, not because of her real or perceived shortcomings, but because she is a woman. She is a member of a group over which she had no control at birth or after. No matter how accomplished, skilled, knowledgeable, or otherwise worthy, she could not be a member. This is the same status that Blacks had for many years. The same excuses that bar women from membership now were used to bar Blacks then. The membership of ANGC persisted in this travesty until they were shamed into the twentieth century. Let's hope that they are shamed into the twenty-first century before the next.

 

I have read on the pages of this very forum a quote of Thomas Jefferson or two, in support of one position or the other. I have one that I think may be appropriate to this discussion. It will have to be, for better or worse, my last word on this subject although I predict it will certainly not be the last word expended. Jefferson was ever the defender of liberty and, for his time, even a passionate voice for equality, even at the expense of all other virtues. He wrote:

 

It behooves every man who values liberty of conscience for himself, to resist invasions of it in the case of others: or their case may, by change of circumstances, become his own.

 

Jefferson also owned slaves, even as he lobbied for their freedom. So I love the irony of you quoting him in the same post where you are talking about the plight of the black man and women at Augusta.

 

The fact of the matter is that you have ZERO proof that there are any discriminatory practices going on at ANGC. If you took the time to read some old newspaper articles instead of just shouting the "racist & sexist" party line, you'd know that they are very particular on finding the right members. Rather than just bring in a "token" they found a potential member that was a titan of industry and a golf nut too. Find a female candidate that meets that criteria and they have a strong chance at membership. Care to offer a name?

 

Augusta National has always said that they will consider membership to females and minorities, but they will not be bullied into it by the sad politically correct crybabies. We can write about this crap every year, but no protest by a pissant magazine trying to get some media attention with a worthless stunt is going to change it anytime soon.

 

I love when people talk about rights and liberties that do not apply to a private country club.

[profsmitty]

Just about all men cant join except a select few, and you dont see those guys complaining.

The reason that I, a man, isn't invited to join ANGC is because of my personal shortcomings (at least in the minds of the membership). On the other hand, no woman can be a member, not because of her real or perceived shortcomings, but because she is a woman. She is a member of a group over which she had no control at birth or after. No matter how accomplished, skilled, knowledgeable, or otherwise worthy, she could not be a member. This is the same status that Blacks had for many years. The same excuses that bar women from membership now were used to bar Blacks then. The membership of ANGC persisted in this travesty until they were shamed into the twentieth century. Let's hope that they are shamed into the twenty-first century before the next.

 

I have read on the pages of this very forum a quote of Thomas Jefferson or two, in support of one position or the other. I have one that I think may be appropriate to this discussion. It will have to be, for better or worse, my last word on this subject although I predict it will certainly not be the last word expended. Jefferson was ever the defender of liberty and, for his time, even a passionate voice for equality, even at the expense of all other virtues. He wrote:

 

It behooves every man who values liberty of conscience for himself, to resist invasions of it in the case of others: or their case may, by change of circumstances, become his own.

 

Jefferson also owned slaves, even as he lobbied for their freedom. So I love the irony of you quoting him in the same post where you are talking about the plight of the black man and women at Augusta.

 

The fact of the matter is that you have ZERO proof that there are any discriminatory practices going on at ANGC. If you took the time to read some old newspaper articles instead of just shouting the "racist & sexist" party line, you'd know that they are very particular on finding the right members. Rather than just bring in a "token" they found a potential member that was a titan of industry and a golf nut too. Find a female candidate that meets that criteria and they have a strong chance at membership. Care to offer a name?

 

Augusta National has always said that they will consider membership to females and minorities, but they will not be bullied into it by the sad politically correct crybabies. We can write about this crap every year, but no protest by a pissant magazine trying to get some media attention with a worthless stunt is going to change it anytime soon.

 

I love when people talk about rights and liberties that do not apply to a private country club.

I promised that I was moving off of this topic as it is obvious that there is nothing to me gained from shouting at each other over unalterably entrenched positions. However, I must respond to the following points you make.

 

1. If you recall, I conditioned my statement about Jefferson's support of equality by recalling his historical context.

 

2. No one is arguing that ANGC's membership policies are not within their rights as a private club. What is in question is the tenuous and anachronistic moral position that their policies occupy. But since you and others like to cite the legal protection that allows ANGC to maintain their policies, I again invoke Jefferson. I believe the following is inscribed on the Jefferson Memorial:

 

"I am certainly not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions. But laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."

 

3. The theory by which you defend ANGC reminds me of the great Texas defense lawyer Racehorse Haynes' description of how he would defend a dog who bit a postman. He said he would base his defense on the following sequential positions -

 

* My dog doesn't bite.

* And second, in the alternative, my dog was tied up that night.

* And third, I don't believe you really got bit.

* And fourth, I don't have a dog.

 

Appears to me that you have found level four.

 

Again, I must bid this topic adieu. Have fun talking amongst yourselves, if you wish. The clock is running.

[stage1350]

I guess you're still not going to tell me who you think if is a viable female candidate? Seriously, put some thought into it. Find me a lady that has been extremely successful in the golf world AND is a "golf nut" as ANGC described Mr. Townsend.

 

As for my theoretical defense, there is no theory.

 

FACT: There is no proof that there is a policy of discrimination. No documentation. No records from minutes of a meeting. Just simple conjecture. They didn't admit a person of color for over 40 years so they must be racist. They haven't admitted a woman so they must be sexist. What's next? They haven't admitted any openly gay men so they must be homophobes?

 

FACT: ANGC is a private organization and proud of it. When Martha Burk got on the bully pulpit and tried to shame CBS and sponsors because Augusta hasn't admitted a female member, they had the courage to let sponsors out of the contract and broadcast The Masters on their own nickel. So they don't bow to political correctness or those that would try and use the media for their personal gain. Defending their ability to choose their members as a private entity does not make them bigots.

 

FACT: Not all white, male, rich people are allowed to join ANGC. There are criteria beyond race and sex to join. One known criteria is that you have to be invited. Maybe you weren't invited because you are an Word not allowedhole. Maybe you weren't invited because you're "that guy." Or possibly, they didn't invite you because you obviously look upon them with disdain and why would anyone want to hang out with a judgemental d0uche that wants to accuse them of racism and sexism?

 

FACT: Charile Sifford, Vijay Singh, and Tiger Woods are among the gentlemen of color that have played in The Masters. Kinda knocks a hole in that "no black people" thing, huh? When an invitation to membership was opened to a black man, you didn't hear ANGC making big press announcements about it. Perhaps they consider a gifted athlete like Tiger Woods to be the best golfer in the world and not the best black cablasian golfer in the world. Is everyone a gender and race to you first and a person second? Do you see the world in black and white, male and female?

 

On the other hand, no woman can be a member, not because of her real or perceived shortcomings, but because she is a woman. She is a member of a group over which she had no control at birth or after. No matter how accomplished, skilled, knowledgeable, or otherwise worthy, she could not be a member. This is the same status that Blacks had for many years. The same excuses that bar women from membership now were used to bar Blacks then.

 

Again, you have no facts to back up this statement. You have assembled a theory and are attempting to pass it off as fact. Your case is a house of cards based on an accusation of guilt. On the other hand, you don't seem to have a problem with separate but equal places like Curves that don't allow men because they are a member of a group over which they had no control at birth or after.

 

I await your next response, even though you've been done with this thread twice now. Somehow, I have a feeling you'll be back... :rolleyes:

 

e: gotta close the tags on that code!

[Jaylasvegas]

Why does anyone care? Imagine if you will that one of you wins the lottery and you buy a chunk of land and you decide to build your own private club, well after a few years you get bored playing it alone and you decide to invite a few of your friends, tell me how the hell would you handle all the idiots that demand you change YOUR policies to allow others to play YOUR course.

 

its beyond stupid to suggest that a private club has to change its policies to move on with modern times. Let me be the first to remind you that modern times suck.

[stage1350]

Why does anyone care? Imagine if you will that one of you wins the lottery and you buy a chunk of land and you decide to build your own private club, well after a few years you get bored playing it alone and you decide to invite a few of your friends, tell me how the hell would you handle all the idiots that demand you change YOUR policies to allow others to play YOUR course.

 

its beyond stupid to suggest that a private club has to change its policies to move on with modern times. Let me be the first to remind you that modern times suck.

 

Better make sure that one of your invites is not white and not male, or you'll be racist and sexist.

 

:calling Pink Magazine. Giving address to Jay's club:

[Jaylasvegas]

Why does anyone care? Imagine if you will that one of you wins the lottery and you buy a chunk of land and you decide to build your own private club, well after a few years you get bored playing it alone and you decide to invite a few of your friends, tell me how the hell would you handle all the idiots that demand you change YOUR policies to allow others to play YOUR course.

 

its beyond stupid to suggest that a private club has to change its policies to move on with modern times. Let me be the first to remind you that modern times suck.

 

Better make sure that one of your invites is not white and not male, or you'll be racist and sexist.

 

:calling Pink Magazine. Giving address to Jay's club:

:clapping: