The purpose of the Downloop...

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='6enh09an' timestamp='1303780262' post='3185674']
I've tried that, but it made my ch in bs too inside very early, and over laid off at top, it's like the downloop happens very early/prematurely. However, when I just tried to keep it square to the arc at takeaway and bs, which I do by pushing under with my left hand at takeaway/bs (I'm actually closing the face but at same time bowing my left wrist..), something happened that I didn't expect... My left wrist became loaded, strong.. it actually becomes "locked" sometimes, I feel my left wrist actually "clicking".. The left wrist begins to c0ck naturally without intentionally c0cking it.. And then at top, it suddenly down loops when I stop the bs to change direction/transition.. And I note that the right hand must completely cooperate right from takeaway, which is by somewhat rotating or winding towards the hole(counterclockwise) asAbe Mitchell said in DTS (its like you keep or make sure that the base of right palm is attached to the left thumb throughout takeaway/bs). This by the way also makes the right elbow behave like Hogan at top and transition (pointing very downwards and in front of chest, and then pitchy). If you fire the hips while just continuing the loading of the left wrist, the 2circle separation of hands and ch that teace pointed out in another topic I think happens as my divots were straight.. Just my observations.. Not sure of this is actually Hogan...
[/quote]

never had this move in my golfswing before...but after a few hours of experimentation...

[attachment=772683:Downloop Sequence.jpg]

Your description of your method and trials with my previous theory where right on. The pushing under of the left hand is a takeaway move I have never tried and if I remember correctly its almost straight out of "Hogans Magical Device"...Not sure how hogan got so much travel though. Hogans right arm had to be very very supple to get as big of a drop as he did.

[JD3]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1303770019' post='3185167']

Lol.. You could also say the camera is much higher in the dtl with that inside line ..... Not that it was inside, but generally I agree with dap and jd in that you can't fake these moves....... Btw tee ace what you are saying is nothing new , it's all been done way before yours and my time
[/quote]
how much of what people think they're seeing is the point where Hogan's wrist transitions from cup to bow and would you consider that an actuall plane shift?
Thanks

[chris_golf]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1303777437' post='3185496']
What differences do you see in your pivot vs hogan and what type release employed ?

Your plane is six inches at least below hogans at top of backswing.... I.e where your hands reach.... What I see, what do you see?
[/quote]

In this thread I talk about planeshifts...

If I remember correctly my first post on GolfWRX was here "what the secret was of Mr. Hogan" and I wrote:

"That he had for every club in his bag a different swingplane"

I was wrong he had for every club as well 5 windows and 9 ballflights thru different planeshifts, COG shifts and different
tilts...

That is why we see so many different swings - and we don´t know his ballflight to every swing we show...

Is this more complicated - in the first view yes, but if I look deeper he was able to create any ballflight with the basic
same motion and without handmanipulation thru his planeshifts. I think Mac figured this pretty good out and I would need
a better understanding of O Grady´s planeshifts and how you can do it actuallly to understand it better. What I knew is that today most players prefer a one ballflight pattern (linear handpath and single shift) and have a hard time to hit different ballflights. ( it´s OK, because they don´t need shotshaping anymore)

I believe now as well that Mr. Hogan´s short Irons had flatter lie angles than his mid and long Irons...
Senior Fats is telling us this as well! No wonder his short Iron swings look like they look...

If I would search every swing of Mr. Hogan I am sure I will find a swing where he swings from the TSP down
to P6 and shifts than to the handsplane - I think this would be a long Iron fade swing....

I would be very happy if you can share, what do you think about the different motions of Mr. Hogan´s shoulders ( they moved independently)... only internally or externally rotation of the humerus or is there something more about it? Has this as well to do with planeshifts?

Thank you in advance...

Chris

[eightiron]

[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1303818313' post='3186616']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1303770019' post='3185167']

Lol.. You could also say the camera is much higher in the dtl with that inside line ..... Not that it was inside, but generally I agree with dap and jd in that you can't fake these moves....... Btw tee ace what you are saying is nothing new , it's all been done way before yours and my time
[/quote]
how much of what people think they're seeing is the point where Hogan's wrist transitions from cup to bow and would you consider that an actuall plane shift?
Thanks
[/quote]

Depends on how they define plane shift , tracking the cog of the club head during the motion is how I see it , but yes the above example would move the club head

[eightiron]

Chris , can you show a long iron swing of hogan going down to hands plane?

That's the bit in this thread I don't get , what plane shift ? What down loop ? From p6 ... Just the release going on as I see it

I already posted about the lateral flex and hogans shoulder motion

[fats]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1303825297' post='3186793']
Chris , can you show a long iron swing of hogan going down to hands plane?

That's the bit in this thread I don't get , what plane shift ? What down loop ? From p6 ... Just the release going on as I see it

I already posted about the lateral flex and hogans shoulder motion
[/quote]

I will tell you this, the stress on the left shoulder in the DS is dramatic...I injured my left shoulder in a non golf accident and could never do the Bolt taught Hogan stuff again...impossible...once the weight shifts pre-BS finish (it really wasn't a BS finish as it was continual motion) and the shoulder does that little lateral move the lower inside of the bicep is dramatically pressed over/into the pec...NOW the rotation becomes a vehicle to unleash a tremendous force...and, as a bonus, comes the opportunity to choose path at will. Bolt had me his balls static from a wound position half way down and develop the power from rotation. GD amazing power and fun to do...I miss the ability to do that now with my bad left leg joint and severed tendon in my left shoulder...but I'll never forget the joy of doing it.

On the lie angles...the whole idea was to get the shaft coming at you the same way at address...it always made sense to me but you should hear golf club companies and golf repair guys laugh at that idea...LOL The reason he liked stiffer shafts was because he wanted no droop or as little as possible...he also did not want to feel any bending of the shaft under his grip...he was a leader in developing a larger butt diameter. Basically...his methods were the difference between a Nascar machine and a retail street model car.

[6enh09an]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1303796620' post='3186417']
[quote name='6enh09an' timestamp='1303780262' post='3185674']
I've tried that, but it made my ch in bs too inside very early, and over laid off at top, it's like the downloop happens very early/prematurely. However, when I just tried to keep it square to the arc at takeaway and bs, which I do by pushing under with my left hand at takeaway/bs (I'm actually closing the face but at same time bowing my left wrist..), something happened that I didn't expect... My left wrist became loaded, strong.. it actually becomes "locked" sometimes, I feel my left wrist actually "clicking".. The left wrist begins to c0ck naturally without intentionally c0cking it.. And then at top, it suddenly down loops when I stop the bs to change direction/transition.. And I note that the right hand must completely cooperate right from takeaway, which is by somewhat rotating or winding towards the hole(counterclockwise) asAbe Mitchell said in DTS (its like you keep or make sure that the base of right palm is attached to the left thumb throughout takeaway/bs). This by the way also makes the right elbow behave like Hogan at top and transition (pointing very downwards and in front of chest, and then pitchy). If you fire the hips while just continuing the loading of the left wrist, the 2circle separation of hands and ch that teace pointed out in another topic I think happens as my divots were straight.. Just my observations.. Not sure of this is actually Hogan...
[/quote]

never had this move in my golfswing before...but after a few hours of experimentation...

[attachment=772683:Downloop Sequence.jpg]

Your description of your method and trials with my previous theory where right on. The pushing under of the left hand is a takeaway move I have never tried and if I remember correctly its almost straight out of "Hogans Magical Device"...Not sure how hogan got so much travel though. Hogans right arm had to be very very supple to get as big of a drop as he did.
[/quote]


I have read that book, but didn't remember its mentioned there. I experimented on that "pushing under" when I read it in DTS by Mitchell. You can download it in the Abe Mitchell topic. Mitchell mentioned it only ONCE, though he mentioned the closing of club head many times. If you combine that, and just keep the right elbow hardly moving during 1st half of bs (right forearm orbiting the elbow and going up diagonally), you don't have to have supple right arm/hand/wrist/elbow. You just fire the hips and rotate as hard as you can.. Just my observations...

[6enh09an]

[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1303818313' post='3186616']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1303770019' post='3185167']

Lol.. You could also say the camera is much higher in the dtl with that inside line ..... Not that it was inside, but generally I agree with dap and jd in that you can't fake these moves....... Btw tee ace what you are saying is nothing new , it's all been done way before yours and my time
[/quote]
how much of what people think they're seeing is the point where Hogan's wrist transitions from cup to bow and would you consider that an actuall plane shift?
Thanks
[/quote]


Exactly. But do you do the cup to bow at that time? Or way before that? I think you start doing that at takeaway, then finally succeed at transition, hence the so-called downloop.

[6enh09an]

[quote name='fats' timestamp='1303829805' post='3186968']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1303825297' post='3186793']
Chris , can you show a long iron swing of hogan going down to hands plane?

That's the bit in this thread I don't get , what plane shift ? What down loop ? From p6 ... Just the release going on as I see it

I already posted about the lateral flex and hogans shoulder motion
[/quote]

I will tell you this, the stress on the left shoulder in the DS is dramatic...I injured my left shoulder in a non golf accident and could never do the Bolt taught Hogan stuff again...impossible...once the weight shifts pre-BS finish (it really wasn't a BS finish as it was continual motion) and the shoulder does that little lateral move the lower inside of the bicep is dramatically pressed over/into the pec...NOW the rotation becomes a vehicle to unleash a tremendous force...and, as a bonus, comes the opportunity to choose path at will. Bolt had me his balls static from a wound position half way down and develop the power from rotation. GD amazing power and fun to do...I miss the ability to do that now with my bad left leg joint and severed tendon in my left shoulder...but I'll never forget the joy of doing it.

On the lie angles...the whole idea was to get the shaft coming at you the same way at address...it always made sense to me but you should hear golf club companies and golf repair guys laugh at that idea...LOL The reason he liked stiffer shafts was because he wanted no droop or as little as possible...he also did not want to feel any bending of the shaft under his grip...he was a leader in developing a larger butt diameter. Basically...his methods were the difference between a Nascar machine and a retail street model car.
[/quote]

Thank you for sharing Mr. Fats. The flatter lie angles is what I've been mumbling about before. With the force of the club head at impact, it will make your left wrist unc0ck to it's maximum right? So might as well do that at setup, so you don't have to think of intentionally doing or estimating it at impact. You just worry about hip turn and rotation. By the way, Hogan mentioned 'em all..

[dap]

Alright,just to continue with the late night sketches......

[attachment=772925:YE Yang - 18th Tee - TPC Boston - HD.mp4_snapshot_00.04_2011.04.27_03.19.43.jpg]

IS THIS ANYTHING??

[dap]

[attachment=772927:post-88805-12735894266871.gif]

[chris_golf]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1303825297' post='3186793']
Chris , can you show a long iron swing of hogan going down to hands plane?

That's the bit in this thread I don't get , what plane shift ? What down loop ? From p6 ... Just the release going on as I see it

I already posted about the lateral flex and hogans shoulder motion
[/quote]

This must be a long Iron swing... Camera was moving - but I did my best to align the lines accordingly...
In my view is every shift where the shaft points outside the baseline a "downloop" - btw. there will allways be
a steepening in the late downswing happen as well with this kind of shift...

[attachment=772926:BHP1.jpg] [attachment=772928:BHP25.jpg]
[attachment=772929:BHP38.jpg][attachment=772930:BHP4.jpg]
[attachment=772931:BHP5.jpg][attachment=772932:BHP55.jpg]
[attachment=772933:BHP6.jpg] [attachment=772934:BHP7.jpg]
[attachment=772935:BHP75.jpg]

In my thinking there is a cause and a effect in every release... I believe the cause was the
late planeshift to the handsplane and with this the cog of the clubhead orbits... automatic flip release...

Sure you can debate if Mr. Hogan starts on the Elbow plane or on the HOP or he starts on the Elbow plane HOP...
Fact is he returns to the original shaft plane nothing more, nothing less.
Has Mr. Hogans planeshifts something to do with planeshifts inside the baseline -- no. If he just reached the elbow plane
in the backswing - there was no need to loop.

Chris

P.S. Can someone point me to the thread where eightiron posted about the lateral flex and hogans shoulder motion?

[chris_golf]

[quote name='fats' timestamp='1303829805' post='3186968']
I will tell you this, the stress on the left shoulder in the DS is dramatic...I injured my left shoulder in a non golf accident and could never do the Bolt taught Hogan stuff again...impossible...once the weight shifts pre-BS finish (it really wasn't a BS finish as it was continual motion) and the shoulder does that little lateral move the lower inside of the bicep is dramatically pressed over/into the pec...NOW the rotation becomes a vehicle to unleash a tremendous force...and, as a bonus, comes the opportunity to choose path at will. Bolt had me his balls static from a wound position half way down and develop the power from rotation. GD amazing power and fun to do...I miss the ability to do that now with my bad left leg joint and severed tendon in my left shoulder...but I'll never forget the joy of doing it.

On the lie angles...the whole idea was to get the shaft coming at you the same way at address...it always made sense to me but you should hear golf club companies and golf repair guys laugh at that idea...LOL The reason he liked stiffer shafts was because he wanted no droop or as little as possible...he also did not want to feel any bending of the shaft under his grip...he was a leader in developing a larger butt diameter. Basically...his methods were the difference between a Nascar machine and a retail street model car.
[/quote]

Thank you very much for these insights [i]Señor FATS...
Now I have to figure out what Bolt taught you...

Thank you again..

Chris
[/i]

[eightiron]

Chris, last time , written many times on hogans shoulder motions, yours is opposite.... Just as I see it

Nope that ain't a flip release to me , and it looks elbow plane to me ...He is just a foot more around the corner than you , and clearly his left wrist is uncocked , right arm very bent........... Bad camera angle as well

[dap]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1303853897' post='3187864']
Chris, last time , written many times on hogans shoulder motions, yours is opposite.... Just as I see it

Nope that ain't a flip release to me , and it looks elbow plane to me ...He is just a foot more around the corner than you , and clearly his left wrist is uncocked , right arm very bent........... Bad camera angle as well
[/quote]

I see the same thing.

The shoulder motion is the complete opposite of Hogan.If Chris did not have such a low arm plane at the top of his backswing and a laid off shaft,he would be OTT to the extreme with that shoulder motion.

Hogan did not lift his arms much but not to the extreme of Chris.Hogan's left arm was at the level of his shoulders on his full shots.

[JD3]

Chris
By any chance is your backswing influenced by Harvey Penick's advice on chipping in his little red book? He used to tell students to pretend they were chipping the ball underneath an imaginary bench.

[6enh09an]

Ultimate test if someone has got Hogan's moves---is if that someone can still mimic Hogan's movements if the swing gets super quick tempo like Hogan.. You would have no time to "mimic"Hogan there.. Chris' swing is slow.. SoChris, assuming you've got Hogan, can you do it very quick please so we can see if the Hogan moves/components would still be there?

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1303871410' post='3188895']
Hogan's left arm was at the level of his shoulders on his full shots.
[/quote]

In your opinion would that mean this camera angle is bad?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxjM9zs8A00[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxjM9zs8A00"]
[/url]

[dap]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1303916941' post='3190025']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1303871410' post='3188895']
Hogan's left arm was at the level of his shoulders on his full shots.
[/quote]

In your opinion would that mean this camera angle is bad?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxjM9zs8A00[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxjM9zs8A00"]
[/url]
[/quote]
Who's to say whether or not that was a full swing?

It's interesting that you would post this video but not dozens of others where his left arm is level with his shoulders.Hogan was a shot maker and he did not utilise full swings for every shot.

On the other hand I have not seen one video or pic of Chris with his left arm level his shoulders.In fact most of his video's have the camera placed low which shows his left arm higher than it really is.In reality it is even lower.

There are many ways to get it done and Chris has his way and it obviously workds for him but my opinion is that it's not Hogan.


[attachment=773568:Driver DSL Desert Forest GC www.keepvid.com.mp4_snapshot_00.03_2011.04.28_01.52.04.jpg]

[attachment=773569:Ben Hogan Swing 1953.flv_snapshot_00.41_2011.04.28_01.53.41.jpg]

[chris_golf]

I don´t have the move of Mr. Hogan, that is not my point...
Did I mention that I have Mr. Hogans "move"?
I did say that I use a similar technique - maybe in the following pictures it will be clearer.


The point is how Mr. Hogan shifted his sweetspot plane and handpath - and maybe some realise now that the handpath
is indeed OTT, but the sweetspot comes still from the inside.


If the handpath and sweetspot comes from the inside to the outside you are forced to square the club with a cross over release. Or worse your handpath and sweetspot comes from the outside...

Following pictures are the handpath in the downswing:

[attachment=773539:BHChandpathP4.jpg]
[attachment=773540:BHChandpathP55.jpg]
[attachment=773541:BHChandpathP7.jpg]

Following pictures are the sweetspot plane in the downswing:

[attachment=773542:BHCsweetspotP4.jpg]
[attachment=773543:BHCsweetspotP55.jpg]
[attachment=773545:BHCsweetspotP6.jpg]
[attachment=773547:BHCsweetspotP7.jpg]

I try really hard to explain a simple concept how Mr. Hogan shifted planes and why it worked.

Why people picking around my swing, I don´t know - I talk about planeshifts and at least, I learn always something thru
my journey to understand how Mr. Hogan did it and how I do it. That´s all.

Chris

[dap]

Chris,nobody is picking on your swing but if you post videos of yourself and Hogan together for comparison,it's inevitable you will get some opinions.

I think TeeAce has pointed out that most touring pros shallow out the plane on the downswing,some by a lot and others do it very subtely.That doesn't mean all touring pros are Hogan.

[dap]

Shallowing out the plane is done by most good players.

Hogan did not have a patent on this.

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1303920322' post='3190164']
Who's to say whether or not that was a full swing?

It's interesting that you would post this video but not dozens of others where his left arm is level with his shoulders.Hogan was a shot maker and he did not utilise full swings for every shot.

On the other hand I have not seen one video or pic of Chris with his left arm level his shoulders.In fact most of his video's have the camera placed low which shows his left arm higher than it really is.In reality it is even lower.

There are many ways to get it done and Chris has his way and it obviously workds for him but my opinion is that it's not Hogan.
[/quote]

I wasnt saying Chris's swing was Hogan's...I was simply asking what you thought of the vid I posted in regards to camera angle because there were some comments made earlier in the thread about incorrect angles leading to incorrect inferences about what a golfer may/may not be doing in his swing.

respectfully...I dont believe anyone said something about Hogan being the first to downloop. I thought we were all discussing the different ways to accomplish the move, and why it is effective

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1303921366' post='3190222']
Shallowing out the plane is done by most good players.

Hogan did not have a patent on this.
[/quote]

But it was part of his swing. Have You thought how many players did that on 50's?

The basic idea on that era for golf swing was totally different than how we think today. Hogan just was 40 years ahead the others. Not all, but most of them.

[dap]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1303922202' post='3190270']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1303920322' post='3190164']
Who's to say whether or not that was a full swing?

It's interesting that you would post this video but not dozens of others where his left arm is level with his shoulders.Hogan was a shot maker and he did not utilise full swings for every shot.

On the other hand I have not seen one video or pic of Chris with his left arm level his shoulders.In fact most of his video's have the camera placed low which shows his left arm higher than it really is.In reality it is even lower.

There are many ways to get it done and Chris has his way and it obviously workds for him but my opinion is that it's not Hogan.
[/quote]

I wasnt saying Chris's swing was Hogan's...I was simply asking what you thought of the vid I posted in regards to camera angle because there were some comments made earlier in the thread about incorrect angles leading to incorrect inferences about what a golfer may/may not be doing in his swing.

respectfully...I dont believe anyone said something about Hogan being the first to downloop. I thought we were all discussing the different ways to accomplish the move, and why it is effective
[/quote]
The video you posted doesn't look very low to me so it's a good angle but it doesn't appear like Hogan's full swing seeing that he can get his arm plane higher in many other examples.

As for the downloop,I think a few posters have already correctly stated that this can be achieved in different ways.Generally speaking,it's a safeguard against the natural tendency for most players to come down too steep and over plane.

[dap]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1303922701' post='3190305']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1303921366' post='3190222']
Shallowing out the plane is done by most good players.

Hogan did not have a patent on this.
[/quote]

But it was part of his swing. Have You thought how many players did that on 50's?

The basic idea on that era for golf swing was totally different than how we think today. Hogan just was 40 years ahead the others. Not all, but most of them.
[/quote]
I suspect most of the good players in that era did the move also.How could you be a good player without it?

Here is Mike Austin who was a great ballstriker but poor short game.

[attachment=773596:Young Mike Austin.flv_snapshot_00.36_2011.04.28_03.13.36.jpg]

[attachment=773597:Young Mike Austin.flv_snapshot_00.36_2011.04.28_03.13.52.jpg]

[chris_golf]

Today tour players using more a concave handpath to shift and shallow out - Mr. Hogan used an straight to convex handpath in the downswing...

This is a famous player who swings from TSP to Elbow plane, but with a different technique:

[attachment=773618:TigerDSLP4.jpg][attachment=773621:TigerDSLP5.jpg]
[attachment=773623:TigerDSLP6.jpg][attachment=773624:TigerDSLP7.jpg]

The butt end will never go over the baseline - the handpath and sweetspot match normally.
The curious thing is he "swings to the left", i wouldn´t expect this with this handpath...



Chris

[markponi]

[quote name='chris_golf' timestamp='1303927617' post='3190559']
Today tour players using more a concave handpath to shift and shallow out - Mr. Hogan used an straight to convex handpath in the downswing...

This is a famous player who swings from TSP to Elbow plane, but with a different technique:

[attachment=773618:TigerDSLP4.jpg][attachment=773621:TigerDSLP5.jpg]
[attachment=773623:TigerDSLP6.jpg][attachment=773624:TigerDSLP7.jpg]

The butt end will never go over the baseline - the handpath and sweetspot match normally.
The curious thing is he "swings to the left", i wouldn´t expect this with this handpath...



Chris
[/quote]

Great post Chris. The concave/convex illustration was pretty enlightening and a very clear way to describe different swing approaches.

Thanks

[6enh09an]

But how did Hogan do it Chris, Matkponi, Eightiron, Dap, Teeace? I mean, if you're a player about to do it, what will be your feel or mental mechanics IYHOs? Every opinion will be respected..

[chris_golf]

[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1303910725' post='3189723']
Chris
By any chance is your backswing influenced by Harvey Penick's advice on chipping in his little red book? He used to tell students to pretend they were chipping the ball underneath an imaginary bench.
[/quote]
[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1303385437' post='3173166']
Unfortunately this is yet another sad ending for a misguided effort to swing like Hogan. [b]Disconnected arms, off plane, excess pronation, handsy plane shift ... opposite of Hogan and a poor basis for a good swing in general. ugh[/b]
[/quote]
[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1303680333' post='3181968']
Did Hogan really have this big plane shift thats being taken for granted? Watching this entire series I honestly don't see it, unlike [b]Chris who rolls it and raises the handle[/b].
[/quote]

[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1303750288' post='3184159']
You answered it to the contrary right there if good players arent aware that makes it subtle and unconscious. No ones saying a swing doesnt have plane shifts, only that in BH's case its subtle and not deliberate.[b] It's the copiers who both exaggerate and manufacture that produce picasso versions of the Mona Lisa[/b]
[/quote]

Normally this is not my character, but JD need´s someone who is bringing him down to earth.

Here is an example what happens if you don´t have a flattening move - my swing is in no way perfect, but I can say
I knew what I do. Contrary there are persons with 2882 posts and they define themselves as Hogan experts.
[attachment=774836:JDP4.jpg]
[attachment=774837:JDP5.jpg]
[attachment=774838:JDP55.jpg]
[attachment=774839:JDP7.jpg]
[attachment=774840:JDP75.jpg]

JD is a lefty and I just flipped him to right handed...
I don´t think that a flying right punch elbow, backing up (this is a common flattening move and brings the swingpath in to out), goat humping and a full roll horizontal release had something to do with Mr. Hogan, but it is a pattern who works for a lot of people - just not my cup of tee.

Chris

@JD3 BTW you can benefit from this thread a lot...