Tour pros adding loft to putts

[oldhamer25]

First off thank you for a good laugh with this thread. This thread started three days ago, op have you got the loft added to your putter? You have been so adamant in defending the article and its logic I figured you would have done this so you could try to prove all opposition wrong.

[rlynham]

[quote name='oldhamer25' timestamp='1311862505' post='3431070']
First off thank you for a good laugh with this thread. This thread started three days ago, op have you got the loft added to your putter? You have been so adamant in defending the article and its logic I figured you would have done this so you could try to prove all opposition wrong.
[/quote]


I had my putter checked two days ago and it had only 2.5* of loft instead of the 4.0 i ordered. I had it bent to 4* to see how that goes.

I may bend it to 5* at a later time if i feel like it is necessary but i am reluctant to do it because it is a welded neck and breaking it is a possibility if i try to bend it too far. If i feel like more loft is necessary then i might just mail it back to the guy i bought it from and let him do it but that will take time. I don't want to be without my putter in the middle of the season.

As far as the "opposition" the only legit posts questioning the article have been from PD, although getting a straightforward answer from him is a bit of a challenge.

[Rockfish]

[quote name='Bray' timestamp='1311869695' post='3431439']
[quote name='rlynham' timestamp='1311863605' post='3431130']
[quote name='oldhamer25' timestamp='1311862505' post='3431070']
First off thank you for a good laugh with this thread. This thread started three days ago, op have you got the loft added to your putter? You have been so adamant in defending the article and its logic I figured you would have done this so you could try to prove all opposition wrong.
[/quote]


I had my putter checked two days ago and it had only 2.5* of loft instead of the 4.0 i ordered. I had it bent to 4* to see how that goes.

I may bend it to 5* at a later time if i feel like it is necessary but i am reluctant to do it because it is a welded neck and breaking it is a possibility if i try to bend it too far. If i feel like more loft is necessary then i might just mail it back to the guy i bought it from and let him do it but that will take time. I don't want to be without my putter in the middle of the season.

As far as the "opposition" the only legit posts questioning the article have been from PD, although getting a straightforward answer from him is a bit of a challenge.
[/quote]

Are you by chance in Congress?
[/quote]

I find nothing wrong with trying to understand what is going on.

The OP has definitely been trying to "defend" the magazine article however, given the Putting Doctor ALSO apparently knows what he's talking about, the OP is showing he's openminded and trying to understand and decide for himself.

There is NOTHING wrong with learning and doing one's best to understand what's going on.

And, FWIW, *I* would like to understand it all as well.

[PuttingDoctor]

[quote name='rlynham' timestamp='1311855265' post='3430794']
"Okay, sorry if you missed the bit about the way muscles work. "

I didn't miss it I just don't think it is relevant to the question at hand. He was not commenting on our muscles he was commenting on the head of a putter. the head of a putter is influenced by more than just our muscles.

If you held the top of the club with just the tip of you fingers and someone pulled the head of the putter back and let go the putter would swing forward due to gravity with no effort on your part.

[color="#FF0000"]But we don't putt with just the tip of your fingers and gravity has little to do with the putting stroke. If you use a putting robot and free fall you see different results, just like we see different results without a ball when testing on the SAM. The question you posed was about my comment re: acceleration and I think we may have beat this horse to a stand still.[/color]

"Rise is a product of the vertical profile of the stroke and happens naturally. "

So if i am reading this right then the launch angle will automatically be greater than the loft at impact. If i hit a putt with a perfectly level approach and my putter has 4* of loft then the actual launch will be greater than 4*, correct?

[color="#FF0000"]If your approach is flat i.e. zero up/down then your launch angle should equal your dynamic loft. If you come in flat and return your putter to neutral your launch should equal static loft.... not withstanding compression of the ball.... some degree of static resistance due to the ball resting in the grass. But minor issues such as this reflect little on launch. If you launch with neutral spin and higher velocity you may see more skid than with a top spin roll. But remember that any spin, back or neutral, will convert to top spin quickly.[/color]

What is the best effective loft at impact to insure a good roll? And what is the deal with the loft comments in the article that say tour pros are hitting up 2.8* at impact? That is a pretty big issue to me.

[color="#FF0000"]Launch angle is a product of angle of attack and dynamic loft and rise so the best effective loft can vary. If you look at the bar graphs in the SAM reports you see a gray area. This is the deviation range of the PGA Tour players tested. You'll see a range of rise from 2 to 4 degrees. Why is the rise at 2.8* a big issue?[/color]

"
The left side of the graphic shows in this case a ball too far back in stance. The angle of attach is positive but minor, the shaft angle is adding loft, the ball roll will be back spin.
"

I don't understand what this means. If the ball was too far back in his stance wouldn't he be hitting down on the ball and delofting the club?

[color="#FF0000"]In my observation "to far back" as I'm looking for 2-3 degrees of rise. Let me explain that for this profile the golfer needs to overcome a dynamic loft that is high due to an add loft impact where the club head passed the hands causing, in this case coupled with limited rise, back spin. For every inch forward this ball is moved from the original position there will be 1 degree of rise added. Look at the graphic and see if you can't tell how gentle the rise is from back to front. You'll see the ball represented by the black square would if moved forward some 2.5 or so inches be in the arc as it begins to ascend. The statement of ball to far back is relative to this test and the lack of rise. Farther back by half an inch may have resulted in a .1* negative angle of attach. Hitting down on the ball would not necessarily include a deloft though it would follow if the ball was farther back. Again lots of variables.

I do hope this helps. I'm not trying to argue with you but simply attempting to put forth sound science which is the basis of the SAM PuttLab and I hope you'll take my comments as constructive.[/color]
[/quote]

[rlynham]

"[color="#ff0000"]This is the deviation range of the PGA Tour players tested. You'll see a range of rise from 2 to 4 degrees. Why is the rise at 2.8* a big issue?"
[/color]
Here is where i am confused.

On the one hand you said emphatically not to hit up on the ball yet you say here that you want at least 2* of rise. I take that to mean that at least 2* of loft is being added at impact by the player due to him hitting up on the ball. Maybe i am not getting the definition of "rise".

Thanks for your time BTW. Putting has always been a bit of a mystery to me because i am not really sure what is going on at impact. On a 5 iron or a chip i know exactly what happens at impact.

[PuttingDoctor]

[quote name='rlynham' timestamp='1311875460' post='3431728']
"[color="#ff0000"]This is the deviation range of the PGA Tour players tested. You'll see a range of rise from 2 to 4 degrees. Why is the rise at 2.8* a big issue?"
[/color]
Here is where i am confused.

On the one hand you said emphatically not to hit up on the ball yet you say here that you want at least 2* of rise. I take that to mean that at least 2* of loft is being added at impact by the player due to him hitting up on the ball. Maybe i am not getting the definition of "rise".

Thanks for your time BTW. Putting has always been a bit of a mystery to me because i am not really sure what is going on at impact. On a 5 iron or a chip i know exactly what happens at impact.
[/quote]

What I'm trying to get across is that rise happens! It is a natural event not one which should be applied by the hands. Generally speaking the farther forward the ball is positioned the more rise will come into play.(1 degree per inch forward) This is why I wanted you to look at the vertical arc of the stroke on the impact page. Your putter will rise and fall naturally as a result of the stroke and if you try to hit up you will lift up and start to employ a more handsy stroke. This type of stroke needs very precise timing and for most amateurs begins a cycle of trouble I'd like to help everyone avoid.
This would be a good time to mention that the center of the putting stroke is actually farther forward than most golfers realize. It is not at the bottom dead center of the vertical arc due to the stroke being generally shorter back than forward. The center of the stroke is closer to your lead foot than some would expect.

I did have a question for you. What did you base your need of 4 degrees of loft on? Do you employ a forward press or do you putt on slower greens? I was not surprised to hear you say that the putter had only 2.5* of loft. But I'm curious as to why you feel the need to have 4 degrees in particular. Thanks.

[rlynham]

Why did i ask for 4*? I just felt i might need a little more loft than normal just from experience. I didn't get tested. I do have my hands ahead with a slight forward press. The greens i play on are fast, over 11 on the stimp most of the time. I could need more than that but i will putt with 4* for awhile to see how that works out.

I am having a hard time seeing how it is natural to hit up on the ball given that we hit down on every other shot. Also i have seen time and again that we are supposed to have our hands ahead of the ball at address ie the shaft leaning forward. However at impact the shaft would have to lean back to hit up on the ball. It seems to me that isn't really a natural move. Hitting up on the ball also makes it easier to mishit it.

In my mind it would make more sense to have more loft and a more level stroke. That way there would be less disparity between the shaft lean at address and at impact. Also it would be easier to make solid contact. I have no idea what a more level/higher loft scenario would look like on a SAM machine though.

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='Rockfish' timestamp='1311872113' post='3431555']
[quote name='Bray' timestamp='1311869695' post='3431439']
[quote name='rlynham' timestamp='1311863605' post='3431130']
[quote name='oldhamer25' timestamp='1311862505' post='3431070']
First off thank you for a good laugh with this thread. This thread started three days ago, op have you got the loft added to your putter? You have been so adamant in defending the article and its logic I figured you would have done this so you could try to prove all opposition wrong.
[/quote]


I had my putter checked two days ago and it had only 2.5* of loft instead of the 4.0 i ordered. I had it bent to 4* to see how that goes.

I may bend it to 5* at a later time if i feel like it is necessary but i am reluctant to do it because it is a welded neck and breaking it is a possibility if i try to bend it too far. If i feel like more loft is necessary then i might just mail it back to the guy i bought it from and let him do it but that will take time. I don't want to be without my putter in the middle of the season.

As far as the "opposition" the only legit posts questioning the article have been from PD, although getting a straightforward answer from him is a bit of a challenge.
[/quote]

Are you by chance in Congress?
[/quote]

I find nothing wrong with trying to understand what is going on.

The OP has definitely been trying to "defend" the magazine article however, given the Putting Doctor ALSO apparently knows what he's talking about, the OP is showing he's openminded and trying to understand and decide for himself.

There is NOTHING wrong with learning and doing one's best to understand what's going on.

And, FWIW, *I* would like to understand it all as well.
[/quote]

I dont think the OP has any other problem other than education issues and means no harm...I reread some of the thread and realized he has no clue how he's coming across. Typing a response in a forum is the best way to watch words coming out of your mouth lol. no attacks here...just being honest

Dude just told the putting doc that getting a straight answer is difficult? Just sounds rude IMO I guess and put a sour taste in a few peoples mouth who read between the lines on some of his earlier posts.

I appreciate the putting doc's patience and material he posted though. GREAT INFO!!! as always thanks

[PuttingDoctor]

[quote name='rlynham' timestamp='1311888110' post='3432328']
Why did i ask for 4*? I just felt i might need a little more loft than normal just from experience. I didn't get tested. I do have my hands ahead with a slight forward press. The greens i play on are fast, over 11 on the stimp most of the time. I could need more than that but i will putt with 4* for awhile to see how that works out.

I am having a hard time seeing how it is natural to hit up on the ball given that we hit down on every other shot. Also i have seen time and again that we are supposed to have our hands ahead of the ball at address ie the shaft leaning forward. However at impact the shaft would have to lean back to hit up on the ball. It seems to me that isn't really a natural move. Hitting up on the ball also makes it easier to mishit it.

In my mind it would make more sense to have more loft and a more level stroke. That way there would be less disparity between the shaft lean at address and at impact. Also it would be easier to make solid contact. I have no idea what a more level/higher loft scenario would look like on a SAM machine though.
[/quote]

Thanks, the other question I have is where do you position the ball in your stance.

A few rules of thumb from the tours... less loft and heavier heads for faster green speeds and more loft lighter heads for slower greens.

I've got a remote session in a few minutes but later today I'll dig through some SAM reports and show you some higher lofts and approach angle shots.

Finally, you don't HIT UP on the ball. The putter rises from the surface naturally due to the pendulum action of the putter stroke. If you try to manufacture this rise and HIT UP you'll have troubles. Chances are you're striking the ball with limited loft and rise and just don't know it. The exception would be if you are playing the ball back in your stance at center or back relative to both feet.

It's not about static loft but dynamic or effective loft at impact. So far there are only two ways to capture this information and one is SAM PuttLab and the second is high speed video in the range of 200+ frames per second.

More screen shots later.

[rlynham]

My ball position is just inside my left heel. My putter is definitely on the heavy side, 340 gram head at 35.5". Sometimes i think it might be a little too heavy.

"Chances are you're striking the ball with limited loft and rise and just don't know it."

Probably true. I have definitely noticed much improved roll since getting it bent to 4*.

I had been thinking about getting a SAM lesson but i think the closest place is in PA (i am in md) so it would have to be on the weekend and right now i am more interested in playing. Maybe when they are calling for sure rain one weekend i will head out there and lose my SAMvirginity.

[PuttingDoctor]

[quote name='rlynham' timestamp='1311975338' post='3434492']
My ball position is just inside my left heel. My putter is definitely on the heavy side, 340 gram head at 35.5". Sometimes i think it might be a little too heavy.

"Chances are you're striking the ball with limited loft and rise and just don't know it."

Probably true. I have definitely noticed much improved roll since getting it bent to 4*.

I had been thinking about getting a SAM lesson but i think the closest place is in PA (i am in md) so it would have to be on the weekend and right now i am more interested in playing. Maybe when they are calling for sure rain one weekend i will head out there and lose my SAMvirginity.
[/quote]

Timing is everything... I was just up in Frederick, MD at Holly Hills last Saturday. Sorry we didn't connect sooner.

[PuttingDoctor]

So here are the launch profiles I promised. Top / Neutral / Back ... Note that when rise overcomes effective loft in value by about .4 degrees we have top spin roll. The varying degrees of static loft and rise give you an idea of just how "all over the map" you can be at impact. This is why I don't much care how much loft you have on a putter...it's about how you deliver that loft at impact. Unless you know your impact numbers it's all guess work.

[rlynham]

Thanks for the info. I wish i could say this was clearing things up for me but frankly i am completely lost on the concept of rise angle. I don't know what it is measuring.

In the first example the putter is moving 1.4* up and the rise angle is 1.8*. In the second example the putter is moving 1.1* down yet the rise angle is 3.0*. Why would the rise angle be higher when the putter is being delofted?

[glabarr]

Player like Bubba might as well use their driver to putt!

[PuttingDoctor]

[quote name='rlynham' timestamp='1312121865' post='3438524']
Thanks for the info. I wish i could say this was clearing things up for me but frankly i am completely lost on the concept of rise angle. I don't know what it is measuring.

In the first example the putter is moving 1.4* up and the rise angle is 1.8*. In the second example the putter is moving 1.1* down yet the rise angle is 3.0*. Why would the rise angle be higher when the putter is being delofted?
[/quote]

Okay, let's go back and think about your comment about the putter swinging from the fingers like a pendulum. The putter rises from address on the back stroke and falls back to bottom dead center and then RISES again as it moves forward. Unless you sway back and forth along the line of the putt you have rise somewhere in the stroke.

Deloft has nothing to do with rise. The position your hands are in at impact, either ahead, behind or neutral to the putter head will determine the effective loft at impact.

The illustration of what happens when the hands are behind the head at impact (addloft) is the most telling. As it happens there are few add loft positions that can create top spin roll. So for those who are employing forward press as a product of activating the stroke vs. a minor forward press as a product of setup my actually be activating their hands and getting to an add loft impact without knowing it.

[rlynham]

So then a player can hit up on the ball even if his hands are ahead of the ball at impact, delofting the putter. I think i got it now.

Had 4 birdies today and no 3 putts which is a good putting day for me. unfortunately i had a couple of brain fart doubles which kept me from shooting under par. Bummer.

I still think i might be better off with more loft. Next rainy weekend i will probably try to get my stroke checked out. Thanks for all your help.

[#1Ballin]

I took a divot with my putter and my launch angle was 2.3

[Fourmyle of Ceres]

You can't reason it out from first principles. It's an empirical question. Two options.

1) You can have your putting stroke measured in detail by someone with the proper equipment and experience to get a true measurement. Then you can use that information to buy a putter with specific specs based on that fitter's recommendation.

2) You can just try a putter with more loft and see how it works. If it doesn't work you can try a different loft. And if necessary another after that.

But what won't work is reading about other people's putters, thinking real hard about it and somehow deducing the correct loft without being measured. There's also a third option. Just keep the putter loft you have right now and work on your stroke!