Tour pros adding loft to putts

[rlynham]

The reading fail thread

In the latest issue of Golf Magazine they have an interview with the guy who invented the SAM machine. He comments on many different aspects of putting but to me the most notable was what he said about loft.

He said the average putter on tour has a loft of 3.5* and the pros hit up on the ball adding 2.8* of loft to the putter. That would mean the effective loft at impact is 6.3*. I found this surprising and i wonder if it isn't just a case of players compensating for not having enough loft on their putter.

[tbarlow11]

I didn't know that tour pros made their strokes as to effectively use THAT much loft but it makes sense. The idea of loft on the putter, as most people know, is to get the ball up out of its small dimple in the green and rolling forward. By having a significant amount of loft to the ball, it'll allow it to hop out and start rolling immediately or it'll take the short split second in the air to stop the backspin and get rolling. That much loft prevents the skid or big hops from hitting down too much.

I just wasn't aware of that large amount of loft.

[rlynham]

Neither was i which has me thinking that maybe i need to add loft to my putter. If 6* of loft is what it takes to get the ball rolling well (and i dont feel confident in my ability to hit up on the ball and putt well) then maybe i should have 6* of loft on my putter.

There are many times when i hit what i think is a solid putt only to see it bouncing.

[glfpunk]

You don't need to have a putter with 6* of loft.

[rlynham]

[quote name='glfpunk' timestamp='1311617194' post='3422079']
You don't need to have a putter with 6* of loft.
[/quote]


It's either that or hit up on the ball. Take your pick.

If pros are hitting with 6.3* loft at impact then it is a pretty safe bet that is close to the ideal loft to get a good roll.

[Splitter]

[quote name='rlynham' timestamp='1311617608' post='3422109']

It's either that or hit up on the ball. Take your pick.

If pros are hitting with 6.3* loft at impact then it is a pretty safe bet that is close to the ideal loft to get a good roll.
[/quote]

So you know for a fact that you hit with exactly 0* of loft every time?

If you're that good you could hit up 2*-3* on your putter.

[rlynham]

[quote name='Hit em' Str8' timestamp='1311618791' post='3422185']
[quote name='rlynham' timestamp='1311617608' post='3422109']
It's either that or hit up on the ball. Take your pick.

If pros are hitting with 6.3* loft at impact then it is a pretty safe bet that is close to the ideal loft to get a good roll.
[/quote]

[b]So you know for a fact that you hit with exactly 0* of loft every time?

[/b]If you're that good you could hit up 2*-3* on your putter.
[/quote]


Uhhh.... wut? I never said i am at exactly 0 at impact. Where do you get that from?

I don't know whether i am at exactly 0 but i do know that with 4* of loft if frequently have a problem getting the ball rolling. I also know that my hands are ahead of the ball at address.I already said that i didn't think i could putt well hitting up on the ball.

[Splitter]

[quote name='rlynham' timestamp='1311619533' post='3422220']
[quote name='Hit em' Str8' timestamp='1311618791' post='3422185']
[quote name='rlynham' timestamp='1311617608' post='3422109']
It's either that or hit up on the ball. Take your pick.

If pros are hitting with 6.3* loft at impact then it is a pretty safe bet that is close to the ideal loft to get a good roll.
[/quote]

[b]So you know for a fact that you hit with exactly 0* of loft every time?

[/b]If you're that good you could hit up 2*-3* on your putter.
[/quote]


Uhhh.... wut? I never said i am at exactly 0 at impact. Where do you get that from?

I don't know whether i am at exactly 0 but i do know that with 4* of loft if frequently have a problem getting the ball rolling. I also know that my hands are ahead of the ball at address.I already said that i didn't think i could putt well hitting up on the ball.
[/quote]

Simple math dude. You say that Pro's hit at 6.3* of loft. So, you want to set your putter up with 6* of loft. That must mean you *know* you hit with 0* of loft.

Why else would you have your putter loft changed to 6* if you don't already know exactly what your current impact angle is?

[ryancjordan]

[quote name='Hit em' Str8' timestamp='1311618791' post='3422185']
[quote name='rlynham' timestamp='1311617608' post='3422109']
It's either that or hit up on the ball. Take your pick.

If pros are hitting with 6.3* loft at impact then it is a pretty safe bet that is close to the ideal loft to get a good roll.
[/quote]

So you know for a fact that you hit with exactly 0* of loft every time?
[/quote]

Huh? no he never said that at all actually.

[Splitter]

[quote name='ryancjordan' timestamp='1311620172' post='3422259']
[quote name='Hit em' Str8' timestamp='1311618791' post='3422185']
[quote name='rlynham' timestamp='1311617608' post='3422109']
It's either that or hit up on the ball. Take your pick.

If pros are hitting with 6.3* loft at impact then it is a pretty safe bet that is close to the ideal loft to get a good roll.
[/quote]

So you know for a fact that you hit with exactly 0* of loft every time?
[/quote]

Huh? no he never said that at all actually.
[/quote]

Yes, he did:

"Neither was i which has me thinking that maybe i need to add loft to my putter. If 6* of loft is what it takes to get the ball rolling well (and i dont feel confident in my ability to hit up on the ball and putt well) then [b]maybe i should have 6* of loft on my putter[/b]."

[Will Par]

Not a very credible article.  At the very beginning he says "Never accelerate into the ball."  Well, at the end of the backstroke, the putter comes to a momentary stop before it moves forward.  Forward speed is zero at that point.  You can't hit the ball unless you accelerate to whatever speed the putter is traveling at impact.  He says maintain constant speed... which is impossible when you start from zero.  You can accelerate at a constant speed, but you must accelerate. It would have made sense if he had just said to swing the putter smoothly without forced acceleration or to swing the putter without any deceleration before impact. I just hate to read inaccurate descriptions of what the putter should do. It's not that hard to be accurate. Entire article is full of similar inaccuracies.  

This is the guy who supposedly helped Ernie Els.  Well, I'm a big fan of Ernie Els and want him to putt better. But he is currently ranked near dead last on tour in putting.  If you want to putt better, Stockton and some others provide much better advice.

[rlynham]

[quote name='Hit em' Str8' timestamp='1311620268' post='3422267']
[quote name='ryancjordan' timestamp='1311620172' post='3422259']
[quote name='Hit em' Str8' timestamp='1311618791' post='3422185']
[quote name='rlynham' timestamp='1311617608' post='3422109']
It's either that or hit up on the ball. Take your pick.

If pros are hitting with 6.3* loft at impact then it is a pretty safe bet that is close to the ideal loft to get a good roll.
[/quote]

So you know for a fact that you hit with exactly 0* of loft every time?
[/quote]

Huh? no he never said that at all actually.
[/quote]

Yes, he did:

"Neither was i which has me thinking that maybe i need to add loft to my putter. If 6* of loft is what it takes to get the ball rolling well (and i dont feel confident in my ability to hit up on the ball and putt well) then [b]maybe i should have 6* of loft on my putter[/b]."
[/quote]


LOL reading FAIL.

Saying that maybe i should have 6* of loft on my putter isn't even remotely close to saying that i am at 0* at impact every time.

[rlynham]

[quote name='Will Par' timestamp='1311620461' post='3422273']
Not a very credible article. At the very beginning he says "Never accelerate into the ball." Well, at the end of the backstroke, the putter comes to a momentary stop before it moves forward. Forward speed is zero at that point. You can't hit the ball unless you accelerate to whatever speed the putter is traveling at impact. He says maintain constant speed... which is impossible when you start from zero. You can accelerate at a constant speed, but you must accelerate. It would have made sense if he had just said to swing the putter smoothly without forced acceleration or to swing the putter without any deceleration before impact. I just hate to read inaccurate descriptions of what the putter should do. It's not that hard to be accurate. Entire article is full of similar inaccuracies.

This is the guy who supposedly helped Ernie Els. Well, I'm a big fan of Ernie Els and want him to putt better. But he is currently ranked near dead last on tour in putting. If you want to putt better, Stockton and some others provide much better advice.
[/quote]



Not credible? This is the guy who invented the SAM putting machine and has analyzed 50,000 putting strokes. He has spent significant time analyzing Tiger and all the top pros.

it isn't a question of him being a coach. That isn't what he does. He analzes the data on his machine and is reporting the results.

Not to mention that you are misquoting him.

[rlynham]

[quote name='Hit em' Str8' timestamp='1311619920' post='3422247']
Simple math dude. You say that Pro's hit at 6.3* of loft. So, you want to set your putter up with 6* of loft. That must mean you *know* you hit with 0* of loft.

Why else would you have your putter loft changed to 6* if you don't already know exactly what your current impact angle is?
[/quote]


You are right about the simple part anyway.

Why does anyone change the loft on their putter? To give themself a better chance to get the ball rolling properly.

[Will Par]

I don't depend on "credentials" to decide if an article is credible or not.  I read what it says and make a determination.  In my opinion, this article contains inaccuracies and the instruction value is very limited.  

I saw Ernie Els hit one of the worst putts I've ever seen a pro hit on TV this weekend.  Ernie is probably the best ball striker on tour.  It's sad.  To me that has something to say about the ability of this instructor. How many pros do you hear praising this guy for helping them?

[rlynham]

[quote name='Will Par' timestamp='1311622404' post='3422410']
I don't depend on "credentials" to decide if an article is credible or not. I read what it says and make a determination. In my opinion, this article contains inaccuracies and the instruction value is very limited.

I saw Ernie Els hit one of the worst putts I've ever seen a pro hit on TV this weekend. Ernie is probably the best ball striker on tour. It's sad. To me that has something to say about the ability of this instructor. How many pros do you hear praising this guy for helping them?
[/quote]

He isn't a coach like stockton. Of course he isn't going to get credit like Stockton who is actually a coach. He just analyzes the data from his machine. And Tiger spends a lot of time analyzing his SAM results just like other top pros.

It is your description that has the inaccuracies. This

"He says maintain constant speed... which is impossible when you start from zero."

is ridiculous. You completely misread what he was saying.

He said that the putter doesn't accelerate [b]all the way into impact[/b]. The acceleration happens early in the forward stroke and then the putter is moving at a constant speed through impact.

[Will Par]

If you do what you say in your last sentence, you have to decelerate to "slow down" to that constant speed.  He also makes the point that what happens after impact means nothing (I agree with that). But he later implies that you need to swing down the line through the impact zone.  To me that's an inconsistency.  But we gain nothing by arguing these points.  You have one opinion and I have another. You have one interpretation and I have a different interpretation. You obviously like what this guy has to say.  I honestly hope he helps you putt better.

[rlynham]

[quote name='Will Par' timestamp='1311624677' post='3422524']
If you do what you say in your last sentence, you have to decelerate to "slow down" to that constant speed. He also makes the point that what happens after impact means nothing (I agree with that). But he later implies that you need to swing down the line through the impact zone. To me that's an inconsistency. But we gain nothing by arguing these points. You have one opinion and I have another. You have one interpretation and I have a different interpretation. You obviously like what this guy has to say. I honestly hope he helps you putt better.
[/quote]


You still aren't getting it. He is just stating the results from the top pros on his machine. It isn't like he is stating his opinion. That is where you are getting confused.

He isn't saying "this is the way i think you should putt". He is saying "this is the way the top pros are putting".

As far as accelerating goes if you go from 0 to 60 in your car and then put the cruise at 60 it is no different than his description of the putting stoke. I don't see where you are going with this. he description isn't that complicated.

[Splitter]

[quote name='rlynham' timestamp='1311620831' post='3422298']
[quote name='Hit em' Str8' timestamp='1311620268' post='3422267']
[quote name='ryancjordan' timestamp='1311620172' post='3422259']
[quote name='Hit em' Str8' timestamp='1311618791' post='3422185']
[quote name='rlynham' timestamp='1311617608' post='3422109']
It's either that or hit up on the ball. Take your pick.

If pros are hitting with 6.3* loft at impact then it is a pretty safe bet that is close to the ideal loft to get a good roll.
[/quote]

So you know for a fact that you hit with exactly 0* of loft every time?
[/quote]

Huh? no he never said that at all actually.
[/quote]

Yes, he did:

"Neither was i which has me thinking that maybe i need to add loft to my putter. If 6* of loft is what it takes to get the ball rolling well (and i dont feel confident in my ability to hit up on the ball and putt well) then [b]maybe i should have 6* of loft on my putter[/b]."
[/quote]


LOL reading FAIL.

Saying that maybe i should have 6* of loft on my putter isn't even remotely close to saying that i am at 0* at impact every time.


[/quote]

Then why would you add 6* of loft to your putter? So you could be somewhere between 6*-10* at impact? Are you trying to create a chipper?

You don't know your impact loft but you want it to be "like the Pros" so you're going to set your putter up at 6* which is what their effective loft is? Really?

It's your putter, do whatever you want with it. But, don't call your LOGIC FAIL a failure of anyone else.

[craz-e]

I know the first time I went to a SAM fitting lab was a real eye opener for me, I found I was striking down on the ball and one of the suggestions from my fitter was to learn to hit up on the ball and use the manufacturers loft effectively or have my loft adjusted to around the 6* mark, and make the same putting stroke. I chose to go for the striking up on the ball but wonder how things would have worked out with that amount of loft.

[rlynham]

[quote name='Hit em' Str8' timestamp='1311625770' post='3422578']
[b]Then why would you add 6* of loft to your putter? So you could be somewhere between 6*-10* at impact? Are you trying to create a chipper?

[/b]You don't know your impact loft but you want it to be "like the Pros" so you're going to set your putter up at 6* which is what their effective loft is? Really?

It's your putter, do whatever you want with it. But, don't call your LOGIC FAIL a failure of anyone else.
[/quote]




Yet again with a reading fail. I never said i would ADD 6* of loft to my putter. SMH

I strongly suggest Hooked on Phonics.

[rlynham]

[quote name='craz-e' timestamp='1311625841' post='3422582']
I know the first time I went to a SAM fitting lab was a real eye opener for me, I found I was striking down on the ball and one of the suggestions from my fitter was to learn to hit up on the ball and use the manufacturers loft effectively or have my loft adjusted to around the 6* mark, and make the same putting stroke. [b]I chose to go for the striking up on the ball but wonder how things would have worked out with that amount of loft.
[/b][/quote]


Exactly what i am wondering now. I don't think i can putt effectively hitting up on the ball.

[Splitter]

[quote name='rlynham' timestamp='1311627543' post='3422690']
[quote name='Hit em' Str8' timestamp='1311625770' post='3422578']
[b]Then why would you add 6* of loft to your putter? So you could be somewhere between 6*-10* at impact? Are you trying to create a chipper?

[/b]You don't know your impact loft but you want it to be "like the Pros" so you're going to set your putter up at 6* which is what their effective loft is? Really?

It's your putter, do whatever you want with it. But, don't call your LOGIC FAIL a failure of anyone else.
[/quote]




Yet again with a reading fail. I never said i would ADD 6* of loft to my putter. SMH

I strongly suggest Hooked on Phonics.
[/quote]

Apologies for the word "add". CLEARLY I meant (as in all my other posts) that the putter loft would would be at 6* total.

See this sentence below? It was in the same post as the one you quoted and took only what you wanted from.

[b]"You don't know your impact loft but you want it to be "like the Pros" so you're going to set your putter up at 6* which is what their effective loft is? Really?"[/b]

Nice try though. I'm done. Do what you will with your putter.

[rlynham]

Then why would you add 6* of loft to your putter? So you could be somewhere between 6*-10* at impact? Are you trying to create a chipper?

 

You don't know your impact loft but you want it to be "like the Pros" so you're going to set your putter up at 6* which is what their effective loft is? Really?

 

It's your putter, do whatever you want with it. But, don't call your LOGIC FAIL a failure of anyone else.:ok:

 

 

:russian_roulette:

 

Yet again with a reading fail. I never said i would ADD 6* of loft to my putter. SMH

 

I strongly suggest Hooked on Phonics.

 

Apologies for the word "add". CLEARLY I meant (as in all my other posts) that the putter loft would would be at 6* total.

 

 

 

Really? So what did this mean?

 

"So you could be somewhere between 6*-10* at impact? Are you trying to create a chipper?"

 

I already said that i am not confident in my ability to hit puts on the upswing which is what i would have to do with 4* loft to get it rolling right. I also said that i was having trouble getting the ball rolling well with 4* of loft. I don't see how this is confusing.

 

 

[JP Page]

[whateverworks]

[quote name='rlynham' timestamp='1311616001' post='3421993']
Neither was i which has me thinking that maybe i need to add loft to my putter. If 6* of loft is what it takes to get the ball rolling well (and i dont feel confident in my ability to hit up on the ball and putt well) then maybe i should have 6* of loft on my putter.

There are many times when i hit what i think is a solid putt only to see it bouncing.
[/quote]

Adjust your loft to 6* and all you are going to see is the ball bouncing more than it does now !

[Jc0]

[quote name='whateverworks' timestamp='1311644384' post='3423542']
[quote name='rlynham' timestamp='1311616001' post='3421993']
Neither was i which has me thinking that maybe i need to add loft to my putter. If 6* of loft is what it takes to get the ball rolling well (and i dont feel confident in my ability to hit up on the ball and putt well) then maybe i should have 6* of loft on my putter.

There are many times when i hit what i think is a solid putt only to see it bouncing.
[/quote]

Adjust your loft to 6* and all you are going to see is the ball bouncing more than it does now !
[/quote]

If you make it 6 degrees it will make things so much worse. What you are saying is that you hit down on your putts so you need higher loft to get it out of the impression. While this may be true it also puts a ton of back spin on the ball which can cause the ball to go all over the place. The reason pros hits putts on the up swing and add loft is the same reason they do it with the driver, to reduce spin. Hitting down causes back spin, hitting up causes top spin. What negates the top spin is the loft on the putter that helps get the ball out of the depression it sits in.

[dlygrisse]

This is officially the dumbest thread ever.......if you want to bend you putter just do it. What's the worst that can happen, you don't like it and have to have it bent back?

[scifisicko]

My putting coach uses the Sam system. He bent my putter to 1.5*. My AoA is 1*. He uses Sam and 1000 fps video to tune your putter and stroke to get it rollling soon as possible. I've never putted better, can't imagine 6*... maybe the rife grooves do work.

[rlynham]

[quote name='Jc0' timestamp='1311655577' post='3424055']
[quote name='whateverworks' timestamp='1311644384' post='3423542']
[quote name='rlynham' timestamp='1311616001' post='3421993']
Neither was i which has me thinking that maybe i need to add loft to my putter. If 6* of loft is what it takes to get the ball rolling well (and i dont feel confident in my ability to hit up on the ball and putt well) then maybe i should have 6* of loft on my putter.

There are many times when i hit what i think is a solid putt only to see it bouncing.
[/quote]

Adjust your loft to 6* and all you are going to see is the ball bouncing more than it does now !
[/quote]

If you make it 6 degrees it will make things so much worse. What you are saying is that you hit down on your putts so you need higher loft to get it out of the impression. While this may be true it also puts a ton of back spin on the ball which can cause the ball to go all over the place. The reason pros hits putts on the up swing and add loft is the same reason they do it with the driver, to reduce spin. Hitting down causes back spin, hitting up causes top spin. What negates the top spin is the loft on the putter that helps get the ball out of the depression it sits in.
[/quote]


Where in this entire thread did i say, or even imply, that i hit down on putts?

If someone was hitting down on their putts then they would need more than 6* of loft to get the ball rolling correctly. Matt Kucher added an additional 8* of loft on his putter so the actual loft is over 10* and i seriously doubt he is getting a "ton" of backspin.

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/481477-jim-furyk-experiments-with-the-kuchar-putting-stroke-this-week/"]http://www.golfwrx.c...roke-this-week/[/url]