Learning Hogan's swing

[Ayalagolf]

Which arm did he use more?

It's important to start understanding his fundamentals if we're going to make progress... So what I'm asking is whether he swung it back with his left arm both or right arm?

-Ayala Golf

[tgreenwood11]

He swung both arms inward towards his chest while keeping the clubhead outside his arms and hands. At the top his left arm was parallel to his shoulder plane and the inside of his right forearm faced his right ear which laid the club off slightly. In my opinion he set the plane of the club with his right forearm.

Watch Ricky Fowler: Arms inward, clubhead outward; somewhat Hoganish but definitely not the release. Ricky uses a crossover release. A crossover release requires great timing.



[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFTiGZAnU9s&feature=fvst[/media]

[Ayalagolf]

[quote name='tgreenwood11' timestamp='1318247138' post='3651349']
He swung both arms inward towards his chest while keeping the clubhead outside his arms and hands. At the top his left arm was parallel to his shoulder plane and the inside of his right forearm faced his right ear which laid the club off slightly. In my opinion he set the plane of the club with his right forearm.

Watch Ricky Fowler: Arms inward, clubhead outward; somewhat Hoganish but definitely not the release. Ricky uses a crossover release. A crossover release requires great timing.



[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFTiGZAnU9s&feature=fvst[/media]
[/quote]
Hi Greenwood,

Think for a moment, is it easier to swing the club if you're right handed with the right arm or the left? One will find that it is much easier to hit a spot in the ground over an over by simply just swinging the left arm back and forth. It helps to repeat your natural plane and you don't have to think more about it. Why complicate the swing? Read the Free Arm Swing by Leslie King. My next post will probably discuss is it worth trying to block out the entire left side of the golf course like Hogan did?

[tgreenwood11]

[quote name='Ayalagolf' timestamp='1318262140' post='3652171']
[quote name='tgreenwood11' timestamp='1318247138' post='3651349']
He swung both arms inward towards his chest while keeping the clubhead outside his arms and hands. At the top his left arm was parallel to his shoulder plane and the inside of his right forearm faced his right ear which laid the club off slightly. In my opinion he set the plane of the club with his right forearm.

Watch Ricky Fowler: Arms inward, clubhead outward; somewhat Hoganish but definitely not the release. Ricky uses a crossover release. A crossover release requires great timing.



[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFTiGZAnU9s&feature=fvst[/media]
[/quote]
Hi Greenwood,

Think for a moment, is it easier to swing the club if you're right handed with the right arm or the left? One will find that it is much easier to hit a spot in the ground over an over by simply just swinging the left arm back and forth. It helps to repeat your natural plane and you don't have to think more about it. Why complicate the swing? Read the Free Arm Swing by Leslie King. My next post will probably discuss is it worth trying to block out the entire left side of the golf course like Hogan did?
[/quote]

Maybe so but in golf like all other stick and ball sports you are standing to the side of the ball. Because of that dyanamic the arms have to swing towards the body on the backswing and back towards the body on the through swing. Inside to inside. Addtionally, the arms being closer to the body stablizes the clubhead as clearly seen in Hogan's swing. Now, if you are bent over at a 90 % angle at the waist and using a very short club, you may have a point.

[Lefthook]

I heard or read an interview with Hogan where he said left arm. He also made it clear that he thought starting with the right arm was a bad idea.

[Ayalagolf]

Keeping it simple and repeatable is what we are after. If one extends with the left side on the backswing and stabilizes the body... Keeping it somewhat centered one creates torque in the form of a sit down move. Try it in your living room without a club.. Thx for your reply!

[tgreenwood11]

Hogan's right hip and buttock moved back and towards the target while his left shoulder coiled to the right; tremendous torque.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='tgreenwood11' timestamp='1318278763' post='3653517']
Hogan's right hip and buttock moved back and towards the target while his left shoulder coiled to the right; tremendous torque.
[/quote]

Funny that no one calls out your observation as "the secret". Maybe it isn't, but it certainly seems to me to be a very key movement to the whole deal, and makes my own swing work much better. The TGMers say that a shoulder turn takeaway is disruptive because it moves you off the ball, but if this move is used, you will stay perfectly centered. I think of it as "sitting into the right hip" while the slant in the right leg increases.

[Pinsplitter59]

"while keeping the clubhead outside his arms and hands."
hmmmmm... maybe not.
full sequence compararison available if you want it.
[attachment=878315:Fowler_Hogan_takeaways.jpg]

[tgreenwood11]

"while keeping the clubhead outside his arms and hands."

hmmmmm... maybe not.

full sequence compararison available if you want it.

 

 

 

 

At this position, his clubhead his square to the arc and is perfectly parallel to his spine angle. After this position his right arm begins to fold and the clubhead with a slight rotation of his arms, opens to around 90% to the arc of the swing. That bend you see in the shaft is due to his hands and arms remaining inside while the clubhead remains outside. He's what many call "loading the shaft"

[Pinsplitter59]

well i am not fussed about Fowler's swing.
you said Hogan's club head stayed outside his hands.
the pic proves otherwise.
i don't know why you would post a Fowler swing, there not one thing similar.
just looking the hands and clubhead paths of both,
you see how confused/complex Fowler's is,
Hogan's is delightful in its symmetry without conflicting forces.
also of interest is that some people seem to think Hogan "laid off" his hands from the top,
he did not do that, though the clubhead did go more behind his hands on the downswing.
in fact his hands come slightly "over the top" of his backswing hands path.
Snead was similar except his backswing hands path was much more inside then came "over the top" to get on the correct hitting plane.

[attachment=878615:Fowler_Hogan_paths.jpg]

[tgreenwood11]

Hogans hands and arms are inside his clubhead at address. He doesn't create any new angle by changing that relationship for at least until waist high when his wrists start to ****. If he did the club shaft would never be on plane. Anyone who pulls the clubhead behind the hands has to make a compensation to get the club back on plane. Plus, when the clubhead gets behind the hands it disconnects the left lat and upper part of the left arm and nothing good happens from there. A few golf greats did jerk the clubhead inside the hands well under the plane; Ray Floyd for one, but Hogan in no way, shape or form made any move like that. As for Fowler, his backswing move is more complex, he steepens then flattens (re-routes) but like Hogan and most great shallow plane swingers, his arms go inside while the clubhead stays outside. You are correct Hogan not making any layoff move with his hands. It appears to me that he twisted his right forearm slightly clockwise at the top of the swing which opened up the clubface. From there he turned hard through the ball with no chance of hooking it.
 

[Pinsplitter59]

sorry to the OP, we seem to have hijacked his thread here.
your terninology is confusing me.
- "Hogans hands and arms are inside his clubhead at address."
i think that's true for 100% of all golfers, isn't it.
to me the clubhead inside/outside the hands means that if you draw a line along the hands path the clubhead can be on that path, under it ("inside") or over it ("outside").
is that your understanding too?

here is another pic from a well known sequence.
certainly looks like his clubhead is always "under" his hands except for address.
[attachment=879177:Hogan_hands_clubhead_path.jpg]

- "great shallow plane swingers"
in what way do you define Fowler as a "shallow plane swinger."
hands/left arm/shoulders/club shaft??
even though his left arm is on his shoulder plane at the top i would call him a steep swinger because his hands and club shaft go up and down on a very steep plane.
caused i guess by his spine tilt.
steep swingers usually have to get their hands out wide to the ball in order to keep the club head behind the hands to hit the ball straight, thus the hands cross over after impact.
Alvaro Quiros is an example of what i call a steep swinger (hands go up and down steeply) but he loops the club head out behind his hands on the downswing,
thus he is able to keep his right arm close to his body and still bent at impact.
his hands path is quite similar to Fowler,
the difference in impact positions is created by the location of the club head in the downswing.
you can see how Quiros's club head stays under his hands all the way to the ball.
Fowlers club head comes back onto his hands path about mid way on his downswing.
[attachment=879179:Fowler_Quiros_paths.jpg]
its interesting to see how the position of the club head in relation to the hands on the downswing actually forces/allows a certain imaoct position.
i only describe what i see, i don't have theories or beliefs.

[TeeAce]

It's all messed up if we don't use right definitions.

Usually we say club head is in, when its further from the target line than hands. It's out when it's closer.

Alvaro Quiros drops his club head well inside of the hands at transition, like Hogan did.

[Pinsplitter59]

deep apologies to the OP.
your question - 'I'm asking is whether he swung it back with his left arm both or right arm?"
i don't know.
going on things he has said and demonstrated there are i think a combination of things.
firstly his mini-drill of locking upper arms to body and making shoulder/upper body swings i think means that its a very connected move without favouring any any arm over the other.
people say the body swings the arms - for this to work i think the set up/address has to be very correct.
also he has said that the hands-arms-shoulders start the swing in that order, but its so connected it feels like its all happening together.
my guess at what this means is that there is a definite hands 'awareness" within the connected motion.
don't tell anyone this but - the secret is getting the clubhead under the hands coming into impact.................... heheheeheeeeeeee..........

[tgreenwood11]

Hogan was left handed. Maybe he instinctively swung it back with his left arm.

[drewspin]

[quote name='tgreenwood11' timestamp='1318334182' post='3656321']
Hogan was left handed. Maybe he instinctively swung it back with his left arm.
[/quote]

He began playing as a left-hander, but he was actually a natural righty.

Plenty of photographic evidence of him signing autographs, etc. to prove the point.

[Staffer]

He swung back with both arms, and he swung through with both arms.

The action was made repetitive with the mental image of having the arms tied together tightly with a rope. Upper inner part of triceps in contact with chest.

Try it, without any conscious manipulation of the wrists. The is but one path the arms can take. Somewhat flat, with the wrists slightly cupped at the the top.

[Ayalagolf]

[quote name='Pinsplitter59' timestamp='1318326300' post='3656143']
deep apologies to the OP.
your question - 'I'm asking is whether he swung it back with his left arm both or right arm?"
i don't know.
going on things he has said and demonstrated there are i think a combination of things.
firstly his mini-drill of locking upper arms to body and making shoulder/upper body swings i think means that its a very connected move without favouring any any arm over the other.
people say the body swings the arms - for this to work i think the set up/address has to be very correct.
also he has said that the hands-arms-shoulders start the swing in that order, but its so connected it feels like its all happening together.
my guess at what this means is that there is a definite hands 'awareness" within the connected motion.
don't tell anyone this but - the secret is getting the clubhead under the hands coming into impact.................... heheheeheeeeeeee..........
[/quote]

[Ayalagolf]

No appologies needed, I know i'm in good company! You're absolutely right, if one wants to block out the left" side" like Hogan did. Simply rout the clubhead under the hands just before impact.

[Ayalagolf]

This website is awesome! Even if we disagree the ballflight will tell the truth!

[moehogan]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1318342443' post='3656803']
[quote name='tgreenwood11' timestamp='1318334182' post='3656321']
Hogan was left handed. Maybe he instinctively swung it back with his left arm.
[/quote]

He began playing as a left-hander, but he was actually a natural righty.

Plenty of photographic evidence of him signing autographs, etc. to prove the point.
[/quote]
The man himself said he was a right handed ... check out the second question and answer in the interview below.

[url="http://www.golf.com/golf/tours_news/article/0,28136,2002283,00.html"]Mr. H interview[/url]

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='Pinsplitter59' timestamp='1318326300' post='3656143']
don't tell anyone this but - the secret is getting the clubhead under the hands coming into impact.................... heheheeheeeeeeee..........
[/quote]

That's only a hint to the secret.