Hogan's Swing Video

[Sean2]

[quote name='fats' timestamp='1327164133' post='4129977']
SEan2 "Are the shoulders, arms, and hands play just along for the ride Monte?

Do you know why did Hogan say he wished he had three hands?"


Very good. Once the late unfolding of the right forearm from the elbow position the right hand insures the moment of truth as the palm of the right hand exactly matches the club face position and impact (square to the start line) creates an explosive contact. Right palm position matching to the club face is ideal.
[attachment=991387:Burke jr impact.jpg]
[/quote]
That's a beautiful impact position fats. And, look at that right elbow. :-)

[fats]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1327165120' post='4130037']
[quote name='fats' timestamp='1327164133' post='4129977']
SEan2 "Are the shoulders, arms, and hands play just along for the ride Monte?

Do you know why did Hogan say he wished he had three hands?"


Very good. Once the late unfolding of the right forearm from the elbow position the right hand insures the moment of truth as the palm of the right hand exactly matches the club face position and impact (square to the start line) creates an explosive contact. Right palm position matching to the club face is ideal.
[attachment=991387:Burke jr impact.jpg]
[/quote]
That's a beautiful impact position fats. And, look at that right elbow. :-)
[/quote]

Better yet look at the right hand and how the palm exactly matches club face position. This is an advanced players position for sure but it's best to recognize the ultimate first and have that be a goal. For most golfers who come to me achieving this is either easy or hard depending on what they were taught before they arrived.

I found most amateurs who have good day jobs, come to me with the right palm, club head and back of left hand facing way right of the target, and they maintain that off to the right position past impact & push or shank and they defend against that result by a late flip turn over of the right hand and then take huge deep divots.

They were the reason I took 2 months off this Summer to modify the swing into a more simple pattern that teaches them, with no doubts at all, how to get the club face square at impact and use some of Hogan's keys. As they improve I install more advanced positions + better trajectory (higher) distance and accuracy, but it isn't an over night process by any means.

BTW when I mention players as an example that doesn't mean it's my simplified swing pattern but instead there are certain positions they have that create results even if their swings are different than I teach. It's the positive elements within that count, not the over all action. There are things to like and dislike but the basic truths are there.

[fats]

[quote name='jak_bot' timestamp='1327164771' post='4130015']
[quote name='fats' timestamp='1327164133' post='4129977']
SEan2 "Are the shoulders, arms, and hands play just along for the ride Monte?

Do you know why did Hogan say he wished he had three hands?"


Very good. Once the late unfolding of the right forearm from the elbow position the right hand insures the moment of truth as the palm of the right hand exactly matches the club face position and impact (square to the start line) creates an explosive contact. Right palm position matching to the club face is ideal.
[attachment=991387:Burke jr impact.jpg]
[/quote]

You can tell that it's winter time when FATS shows up. Good to see you posting regularly again.
[/quote]


HA! How right you are and thanks. Had a nice full lesson book for this weekend now rain & wind + cold regardless of the thermometer. Then like most of us we get to watch the PGA Tour on TV playing in short sleeved shirts. Oh well LOL

[Sean2]

[quote name='fats' timestamp='1327166656' post='4130181']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1327165120' post='4130037']
[quote name='fats' timestamp='1327164133' post='4129977']
SEan2 "Are the shoulders, arms, and hands play just along for the ride Monte?

Do you know why did Hogan say he wished he had three hands?"


Very good. Once the late unfolding of the right forearm from the elbow position the right hand insures the moment of truth as the palm of the right hand exactly matches the club face position and impact (square to the start line) creates an explosive contact. Right palm position matching to the club face is ideal.
[attachment=991387:Burke jr impact.jpg]
[/quote]
That's a beautiful impact position fats. And, look at that right elbow. :-)
[/quote]

Better yet look at the right hand and how the palm exactly matches club face position. This is an advanced players position for sure but it's best to recognize the ultimate first and have that be a goal. For most golfers who come to me achieving this is either easy or hard depending on what they were taught before they arrived.

I found most amateurs who have good day jobs, come to me with the right palm, club head and back of left hand facing way right of the target, and they maintain that off to the right position past impact & push or shank and they defend against that result by a late flip turn over of the right hand and then take huge deep divots.

They were the reason I took 2 months off this Summer to modify the swing into a more simple pattern that teaches them, with no doubts at all, how to get the club face square at impact and use some of Hogan's keys. As they improve I install more advanced positions + better trajectory (higher) distance and accuracy, but it isn't an over night process by any means.

BTW when I mention players as an example that doesn't mean it's my simplified swing pattern but instead there are certain positions they have that create results even if their swings are different than I teach. It's the positive elements within that count, not the over all action. There are things to like and dislike but the basic truths are there.
[/quote]
I did look at that right hand position and found that to be amazing too: that the palm and club face could match up so perfectly is artistry to me.

I think I force too many things, i.e., I think about too many things on the DS, I try to create things that don't need to be created. I feel my BS is okay (I've checked it in the mirror enough times, as well as my position at the top). It's in the DS where I start to force things to happen: anything from trying to hold the lag, to forcing my elbow into my side, etc. There isn't enough time to think in the DS. At some point I have to let it happen and just get out of the way.

ps: I hope your weather improves. At least you didn't get snow like we did. :-)

[fats]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1327207434' post='4133021']
[quote name='fats' timestamp='1327166656' post='4130181']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1327165120' post='4130037']
[quote name='fats' timestamp='1327164133' post='4129977']
SEan2 "Are the shoulders, arms, and hands play just along for the ride Monte?

Do you know why did Hogan say he wished he had three hands?"


Very good. Once the late unfolding of the right forearm from the elbow position the right hand insures the moment of truth as the palm of the right hand exactly matches the club face position and impact (square to the start line) creates an explosive contact. Right palm position matching to the club face is ideal.
[attachment=991387:Burke jr impact.jpg]
[/quote]
That's a beautiful impact position fats. And, look at that right elbow. :-)
[/quote]

Better yet look at the right hand and how the palm exactly matches club face position. This is an advanced players position for sure but it's best to recognize the ultimate first and have that be a goal. For most golfers who come to me achieving this is either easy or hard depending on what they were taught before they arrived.

I found most amateurs who have good day jobs, come to me with the right palm, club head and back of left hand facing way right of the target, and they maintain that off to the right position past impact & push or shank and they defend against that result by a late flip turn over of the right hand and then take huge deep divots.

They were the reason I took 2 months off this Summer to modify the swing into a more simple pattern that teaches them, with no doubts at all, how to get the club face square at impact and use some of Hogan's keys. As they improve I install more advanced positions + better trajectory (higher) distance and accuracy, but it isn't an over night process by any means.

BTW when I mention players as an example that doesn't mean it's my simplified swing pattern but instead there are certain positions they have that create results even if their swings are different than I teach. It's the positive elements within that count, not the over all action. There are things to like and dislike but the basic truths are there.
[/quote]
I did look at that right hand position and found that to be amazing too: that the palm and club face could match up so perfectly is artistry to me.

I think I force too many things, i.e., I think about too many things on the DS, I try to create things that don't need to be created. I feel my BS is okay (I've checked it in the mirror enough times, as well as my position at the top). It's in the DS where I start to force things to happen: anything from trying to hold the lag, to forcing my elbow into my side, etc. There isn't enough time to think in the DS. At some point I have to let it happen and just get out of the way.

ps: I hope your weather improves. At least you didn't get snow like we did. :-)
[/quote]


That right hand position is not an effort to do so but a RESULT, a check point at impact. All hands do is grip the club not rule the swing.

It is valuable to have a very good grip however, if not the actual swing becomes more difficult. I see the right hand grip position as Geoff Jones advises as essential and the left hand position being "somewhat" flexible in position. I prefer the weaker side of neutral but also teach stronger left hand than neutral but the right hand is always Geoff Jones.

Geoff knows what a golf swing should look like. Great teacher. The guy who teaches Webb Simpson also knows his stuff. Same with McLean with Lexi and Keegan. Lots of fabulous teachers out there. Many in this forum would rip apart Lexi, Keegan, Simpson swings in one form or another but that's because you are after THE HOGAN SWING inch by inch. I like this forum because I wish to heck I could do the same. Reality says only the key elements are necessary and then simplify to install those key elements either in elementary or advanced form depending on the student's ability.

[downtoscratch]

Right hand/ palm matching clubface. Looking at Mr. Hogan in this Life magazine image it certainly appears to me that the right hand/palm does not perfectly match up with the leading edge of the clubface. It is evident from this still shot that the right forearm is wound over CCW and the hand goes the same way...... over and around the grip. His palm would more likely face inwards toward his right thigh. Look closely at the leading edge of the clubface..... is it not shaded open as well? I make this point here not to be contentious or win any debates but merely to share a view from one perspective with others here on this forum. As for the hand matching the face all is not lost by dint of this apparent departure here. IF the hand and clubface bear THE SAME relationship at impact as they do at address then it can be said that they match up perfectly............ just not identically parallel. Make sense? If you look at the sequence of b&w photos that accompanied this one it is only as the hands pass along the front of the right thigh that the right hand of Hogan comes to what might otherwise be called the 'thumb up/shake hands position. Another clue to how far over it was at address. This is but one example of the many curious angles Mr. Hogan took up at address. And every one of them had a certain purpose to be sure. DTS













<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/A3meWsEeZi0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> [url="http://youtu.be/A3meWsEeZi0"]http://youtu.be/A3meWsEeZi0[/url]

[fats]

[quote name='downtoscratch' timestamp='1327267053' post='4135665']
Right hand/ palm matching clubface. Looking at Mr. Hogan in this Life magazine image it certainly appears to me that the right hand/palm does not perfectly match up with the leading edge of the clubface. It is evident from this still shot that the right forearm is wound over CCW and the hand goes the same way...... over and around the grip. His palm would more likely face inwards toward his right thigh. Look closely at the leading edge of the clubface..... is it not shaded open as well? I make this point here not to be contentious or win any debates but merely to share a view from one perspective with others here on this forum. As for the hand matching the face all is not lost by dint of this apparent departure here. IF the hand and clubface bear THE SAME relationship at impact as they do at address then it can be said that they match up perfectly............ just not identically parallel. Make sense? If you look at the sequence of b&w photos that accompanied this one it is only as the hands pass along the front of the right thigh that the right hand of Hogan comes to what might otherwise be called the 'thumb up/shake hands position. Another clue to how far over it was at address. This is but one example of the many curious angles Mr. Hogan took up at address. And every one of them had a certain purpose to be sure. DTS


[attachment=993411:Hogan driver.jpg]

[attachment=993413:Burke jr impact.jpg]






<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/A3meWsEeZi0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> [url="http://youtu.be/A3meWsEeZi0"]http://youtu.be/A3meWsEeZi0[/url]
[/quote]


[b]It's ALL about IMPACT LOL
I enjoy your disagreeing as it's what a forum is all about. Has anyone hit the ball with their back swing though, I can't seem to recall that happening.
[/b]

[moehogan]

Right hand/ palm matching clubface. Looking at Mr. Hogan in this Life magazine image it certainly appears to me that the right hand/palm does not perfectly match up with the leading edge of the clubface. It is evident from this still shot that the right forearm is wound over CCW and the hand goes the same way...... over and around the grip. His palm would more likely face inwards toward his right thigh. Look closely at the leading edge of the clubface..... is it not shaded open as well? I make this point here not to be contentious or win any debates but merely to share a view from one perspective with others here on this forum. As for the hand matching the face all is not lost by dint of this apparent departure here. IF the hand and clubface bear THE SAME relationship at impact as they do at address then it can be said that they match up perfectly............ just not identically parallel. Make sense? If you look at the sequence of b&w photos that accompanied this one it is only as the hands pass along the front of the right thigh that the right hand of Hogan comes to what might otherwise be called the 'thumb up/shake hands position. Another clue to how far over it was at address. This is but one example of the many curious angles Mr. Hogan took up at address. And every one of them had a certain purpose to be sure. DTS

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/A3meWsEeZi0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

ADDRESS hands v. IMPACT hands ... How DOES he do that? ;)

 

[fats]

Are his hands in the same position at address as they are at impact? Answer no.

[moehogan]

[quote name='fats' timestamp='1327276555' post='4136503']
Are his hands in the same position at address as they are at impact? Answer no.
[/quote]

Fats,

Certainly they are further targetwise at impact, but the relationship of his hands to EACH OTHER has appeared to change. Looks like maybe Mr. H's hands have rotated apart from the top of the handle ... left looks weaker and right looks stronger.

Or are my old eyes playing tricks on me (or maybe the single malt ... lol)?

Cheers,

mh

[Sean2]

[quote name='fats' timestamp='1327258236' post='4134977']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1327207434' post='4133021']
[quote name='fats' timestamp='1327166656' post='4130181']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1327165120' post='4130037']
[quote name='fats' timestamp='1327164133' post='4129977']
SEan2 "Are the shoulders, arms, and hands play just along for the ride Monte?

Do you know why did Hogan say he wished he had three hands?"


Very good. Once the late unfolding of the right forearm from the elbow position the right hand insures the moment of truth as the palm of the right hand exactly matches the club face position and impact (square to the start line) creates an explosive contact. Right palm position matching to the club face is ideal.
[attachment=991387:Burke jr impact.jpg]
[/quote]
That's a beautiful impact position fats. And, look at that right elbow. :-)
[/quote]

Better yet look at the right hand and how the palm exactly matches club face position. This is an advanced players position for sure but it's best to recognize the ultimate first and have that be a goal. For most golfers who come to me achieving this is either easy or hard depending on what they were taught before they arrived.

I found most amateurs who have good day jobs, come to me with the right palm, club head and back of left hand facing way right of the target, and they maintain that off to the right position past impact & push or shank and they defend against that result by a late flip turn over of the right hand and then take huge deep divots.

They were the reason I took 2 months off this Summer to modify the swing into a more simple pattern that teaches them, with no doubts at all, how to get the club face square at impact and use some of Hogan's keys. As they improve I install more advanced positions + better trajectory (higher) distance and accuracy, but it isn't an over night process by any means.

BTW when I mention players as an example that doesn't mean it's my simplified swing pattern but instead there are certain positions they have that create results even if their swings are different than I teach. It's the positive elements within that count, not the over all action. There are things to like and dislike but the basic truths are there.
[/quote]
I did look at that right hand position and found that to be amazing too: that the palm and club face could match up so perfectly is artistry to me.

I think I force too many things, i.e., I think about too many things on the DS, I try to create things that don't need to be created. I feel my BS is okay (I've checked it in the mirror enough times, as well as my position at the top). It's in the DS where I start to force things to happen: anything from trying to hold the lag, to forcing my elbow into my side, etc. There isn't enough time to think in the DS. At some point I have to let it happen and just get out of the way.

ps: I hope your weather improves. At least you didn't get snow like we did. :-)
[/quote]


That right hand position is not an effort to do so but a RESULT, a check point at impact. All hands do is grip the club not rule the swing.

It is valuable to have a very good grip however, if not the actual swing becomes more difficult. I see the right hand grip position as Geoff Jones advises as essential and the left hand position being "somewhat" flexible in position. I prefer the weaker side of neutral but also teach stronger left hand than neutral but the right hand is always Geoff Jones.

Geoff knows what a golf swing should look like. Great teacher. The guy who teaches Webb Simpson also knows his stuff. Same with McLean with Lexi and Keegan. Lots of fabulous teachers out there. Many in this forum would rip apart Lexi, Keegan, Simpson swings in one form or another but that's because you are after THE HOGAN SWING inch by inch. I like this forum because I wish to heck I could do the same. [b]Reality says only the key elements are necessary and then simplify to install those key elements either in elementary or advanced form depending on the student's ability.[/b]
[/quote]
That's brilliant in my mind. Maybe I've had bad luck with instructors but they seem to try to mold my swing into something that's not me. I'm looking for those "key elements" and build a swing that is suited to my "peculiarities".

[Sean2]

Right hand/ palm matching clubface. Looking at Mr. Hogan in this Life magazine image it certainly appears to me that the right hand/palm does not perfectly match up with the leading edge of the clubface. It is evident from this still shot that the right forearm is wound over CCW and the hand goes the same way...... over and around the grip. His palm would more likely face inwards toward his right thigh. Look closely at the leading edge of the clubface..... is it not shaded open as well? I make this point here not to be contentious or win any debates but merely to share a view from one perspective with others here on this forum. As for the hand matching the face all is not lost by dint of this apparent departure here. IF the hand and clubface bear THE SAME relationship at impact as they do at address then it can be said that they match up perfectly............ just not identically parallel. Make sense? If you look at the sequence of b&w photos that accompanied this one it is only as the hands pass along the front of the right thigh that the right hand of Hogan comes to what might otherwise be called the 'thumb up/shake hands position. Another clue to how far over it was at address. This is but one example of the many curious angles Mr. Hogan took up at address. And every one of them had a certain purpose to be sure. DTS

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/A3meWsEeZi0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

ADDRESS hands v. IMPACT hands ... How DOES he do that? ;)

 

Perhaps he's hitting the ball with his right hand?

[downtoscratch]

[quote name='fats' timestamp='1327276555' post='4136503']
Are his hands in the same position at address as they are at impact? Answer no.
[/quote]

What's your point here? My contention is his hands are the same [i]relative to the clubface[/i] both at address and at impact with regard to how he set them on the club. We all should already know that
they are not as they were at address in regard to impact dynamics.... shaft lean, shaft droop, wrist arch etc... so what about your comment invalidates mine? Unless of course you are agreeing with
Moehogan's idea that the right hand is somehow twisting ccw while the left is turning clockwise thereby changing the hands relative to how they were to the clubhead at address. To be clear..... did
his hands turn, twist or in any way change from their original hold on the grip of the club or not........... NOT, imo. dts

[fats]

My point is IMPACT. IMPACT IMPACT IMPACT

IMPACT IMPACT IMPACT IMPACT IMPACT IMPACT

[fats]

[quote name='downtoscratch' timestamp='1327280297' post='4136869']
[quote name='fats' timestamp='1327276555' post='4136503']
Are his hands in the same position at address as they are at impact? Answer no.
[/quote]

What's your point here? My contention is his hands are the same [i]relative to the clubface[/i] both at address and at impact with regard to how he set them on the club. We all should already know that
they are not as they were at address in regard to impact dynamics.... shaft lean, shaft droop, wrist arch etc... so what about your comment invalidates mine? Unless of course you are agreeing with
Moehogan's idea that the right hand is somehow twisting ccw while the left is turning clockwise thereby changing the hands relative to how they were to the clubhead at address. To be clear..... did
his hands turn, twist or in any way change from their original hold on the grip of the club or not........... NOT, imo. dts
[/quote]

What I enjoy most about in the Hogan forum are comments regarding what people see Hogan doing. When the slide rules start coming out I vacate LOL People see what they see. DTS you believe what you see and believe Moe Hogan believes what he sees and believes. Why does it get so darned personal?

You both might find my ideas way way to simple and that's OK fellas. I absolutely understand my more simplistic approach can irk those who want and inch by inch degrees of measurement of what Hogan did. I wish all of you well. My view is modified Hogan with simplicity as an INTENT. IMOP it sure as heck about time this great swing was modified to fit modern day golf and still retain some of Hogan's valued keys.

NO, I am not going to tell this forum what I am doing. I will give hints once in a while and IMPACT is one of them. Hit ball ball go straight! Have a good evening DTS and Moe Hogan. and everyone else.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='fats' timestamp='1327284405' post='4137311']
[quote name='downtoscratch' timestamp='1327280297' post='4136869']
[quote name='fats' timestamp='1327276555' post='4136503']
Are his hands in the same position at address as they are at impact? Answer no.
[/quote]

What's your point here? My contention is his hands are the same [i]relative to the clubface[/i] both at address and at impact with regard to how he set them on the club. We all should already know that
they are not as they were at address in regard to impact dynamics.... shaft lean, shaft droop, wrist arch etc... so what about your comment invalidates mine? Unless of course you are agreeing with
Moehogan's idea that the right hand is somehow twisting ccw while the left is turning clockwise thereby changing the hands relative to how they were to the clubhead at address. To be clear..... did
his hands turn, twist or in any way change from their original hold on the grip of the club or not........... NOT, imo. dts
[/quote]

What I enjoy most about in the Hogan forum are comments regarding what people see Hogan doing. When the slide rules start coming out I vacate LOL People see what they see. DTS you believe what you see and believe Moe Hogan believes what he sees and believes. Why does it get so darned personal?

You both might find my ideas way way to simple and that's OK fellas. I absolutely understand my more simplistic approach can irk those who want and inch by inch degrees of measurement of what Hogan did. I wish all of you well. My view is modified Hogan with simplicity as an INTENT. IMOP it sure as heck about time this great swing was modified to fit modern day golf and still retain some of Hogan's valued keys.

NO, I am not going to tell this forum what I am doing. I will give hints once in a while and IMPACT is one of them. Hit ball ball go straight! Have a good evening DTS and Moe Hogan. and everyone else.
[/quote]

Hogan himself said in 5L that when he explains in clinics that the DS is a SIMPLE one-piece hit-thru action, people react with a kind of skepticism which might be put into words like this: "...Nothing could be that simple...."...lol... How history repeats itself, don't you think?

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1327278273' post='4136665']
[quote name='fats' timestamp='1327276555' post='4136503']
Are his hands in the same position at address as they are at impact? Answer no.
[/quote]

Fats,

Certainly they are further targetwise at impact, but the relationship of his hands to EACH OTHER has appeared to change. Looks like maybe Mr. H's hands have rotated apart from the top of the handle ... left looks weaker and right looks stronger.

Or are my old eyes playing tricks on me (or maybe the single malt ... lol)?

Cheers,

mh
[/quote]

Why don't you just pick up from what Fats said? He's saying they're different, and they are. It appears to change because they are NOT in the same position, exactly as Fats said.

At address the left wrist is bent, right wrist sorta flat/straightened, and hands are mid-body. At impact left wrist is flat, hands more ahead nearer the target instead of mid body. With ball not changing, how do you think it will affect the shaft lean or unlean, and how you think it will affect the right hand position--which directly answers your right hand theory?

As a drill, why don't you mimic Hogan's address position exactly, then without changing the grip at all, move it to impact position. Now you think you twisted your right hand to get to that impact position? No, you just moved the clubhead back a bit, you removed the negative lean on the club, in the process your right hand/wrist bent back a bit so it looks like you twisted it...lol

[fats]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1327290179' post='4137893']
[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1327278273' post='4136665']
[quote name='fats' timestamp='1327276555' post='4136503']
Are his hands in the same position at address as they are at impact? Answer no.
[/quote]

Fats,

Certainly they are further targetwise at impact, but the relationship of his hands to EACH OTHER has appeared to change. Looks like maybe Mr. H's hands have rotated apart from the top of the handle ... left looks weaker and right looks stronger.

Or are my old eyes playing tricks on me (or maybe the single malt ... lol)?

Cheers,

mh
[/quote]

Why don't you just pick up from what Fats said? He's saying they're different, and they are. It appears to change because they are NOT in the same position, exactly as Fats said.

At address the left wrist is bent, right wrist sorta flat/straightened, and hands are mid-body. At impact left wrist is flat, hands more ahead nearer the target instead of mid body. With ball not changing, how do you think it will affect the shaft lean or unlean, and how you think it will affect the right hand position--which directly answers your right hand theory?

As a drill, why don't you mimic Hogan's address position exactly, then without changing the grip at all, move it to impact position. Now you think you twisted your right hand to get to that impact position? No, you just moved the clubhead back a bit, you removed the negative lean on the club, in the process your right hand/wrist bent back a bit so it looks like you twisted it...lol
[/quote]


Applause Applause Applause. Great words. Simplicity in it's finest form.

[moehogan]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1327290179' post='4137893']
[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1327278273' post='4136665']
[quote name='fats' timestamp='1327276555' post='4136503']
Are his hands in the same position at address as they are at impact? Answer no.
[/quote]

Fats,

Certainly they are further targetwise at impact, but the relationship of his hands to EACH OTHER has appeared to change. Looks like maybe Mr. H's hands have rotated apart from the top of the handle ... left looks weaker and right looks stronger.

Or are my old eyes playing tricks on me (or maybe the single malt ... lol)?

Cheers,

mh
[/quote]

Why don't you just pick up from what Fats said? He's saying they're different, and they are. It appears to change because they are NOT in the same position, exactly as Fats said.

At address the left wrist is bent, right wrist sorta flat/straightened, and hands are mid-body. At impact left wrist is flat, hands more ahead nearer the target instead of mid body. With ball not changing, how do you think it will affect the shaft lean or unlean, and how you think it will affect the right hand position--which directly answers your right hand theory?

As a drill, why don't you mimic Hogan's address position exactly, then without changing the grip at all, move it to impact position. Now you think you twisted your right hand to get to that impact position? No, you just moved the clubhead back a bit, you removed the negative lean on the club, in the process your right hand/wrist bent back a bit so it looks like you twisted it...lol
[/quote]

Well, HG, tried your suggestion over a year ago when someone offered it. It's actually pretty easy to move your hands from midbody to impact fix without affecting the relationship of the hands to one another. Sorry, but moving to impact fix does not guarantee a strengthened right hand position.

As usual, we will just have to agree to disagree.

[Conrad1953]

Sean, did you ever read Geoff's "encyclopedia texarkana" and watch
his and DFW1500s videos? While all this may be a great debate, it's
essentially TMI for most of us.

Providing all that precedes is done correctly; the downswing is almost
automatic; pressure on left heel, maintain right wrist set and unwind left
and low. The arms are PULLED down by this motion, you don't have to
consciously do it. You get a feeling of really thumping the ball. It's quite
amazing.

Look at what Geoff calls some of his favorite pics of Hogan in the
encyclo.You can clearly see how Hogan thumped the ball in one of
them.

I am not an expert, or a teacher, or a pro. Probably better if I keep my
mouth shut but.....oh well.....can't help myself.
This stuff, while not easy to execute, is not complicated or difficult to
understand when explained in a simplified way; and Geoff does it best,
IMHO.

I immersed myself in all this starting a few years ago. It's been a fun
adventure and I have learned a lot. There is a tendency for many to
put too fine a detail on all this. That's fine for discussion and debate,
and to sharpen one's knowledge. It's not necessary for improved
ball striking.

If you really study Geoff's grip and set up,and learn his 9-3 drill;
the essence of all this will come into a sharper focus when you
can SEE the results in your own swing: but it's not really a swing
when done right.

[fats]

[quote name='Conrad1953' timestamp='1327293987' post='4138177']
Sean, did you ever read Geoff's "encyclopedia texarkana" and watch
his and DFW1500s videos? While all this may be a great debate, it's
essentially TMI for most of us.

Providing all that precedes is done correctly; the downswing is almost
automatic; pressure on left heel, maintain right wrist set and unwind left
and low. The arms are PULLED down by this motion, you don't have to
consciously do it. You get a feeling of really thumping the ball. It's quite
amazing.

Look at what Geoff calls some of his favorite pics of Hogan in the
encyclo.You can clearly see how Hogan thumped the ball in one of
them.

I am not an expert, or a teacher, or a pro. Probably better if I keep my
mouth shut but.....oh well.....can't help myself.
This stuff, while not easy to execute, is not complicated or difficult to
understand when explained in a simplified way; and Geoff does it best,
IMHO.

I immersed myself in all this starting a few years ago. It's been a fun
adventure and I have learned a lot. There is a tendency for many to
put too fine a detail on all this. That's fine for discussion and debate,
and to sharpen one's knowledge. It's not necessary for improved
ball striking.

If you really study Geoff's grip and set up,and learn his 9-3 drill;
the essence of all this will come into a sharper focus when you
can SEE the results in your own swing: but it's not really a swing
when done right.
[/quote]


Geoff's marvelous and a very good friend of mine.

[Sean2]

[quote name='Conrad1953' timestamp='1327293987' post='4138177']
Sean, did you ever read Geoff's "encyclopedia texarkana" and watch
his and DFW1500s videos? While all this may be a great debate, it's
essentially TMI for most of us.

Providing all that precedes is done correctly; the downswing is almost
automatic; pressure on left heel, maintain right wrist set and unwind left
and low. The arms are PULLED down by this motion, you don't have to
consciously do it. You get a feeling of really thumping the ball. It's quite
amazing.

Look at what Geoff calls some of his favorite pics of Hogan in the
encyclo.You can clearly see how Hogan thumped the ball in one of
them.

I am not an expert, or a teacher, or a pro. Probably better if I keep my
mouth shut but.....oh well.....can't help myself.
This stuff, while not easy to execute, is not complicated or difficult to
understand when explained in a simplified way; and Geoff does it best,
IMHO.

I immersed myself in all this starting a few years ago. It's been a fun
adventure and I have learned a lot. There is a tendency for many to
put too fine a detail on all this. That's fine for discussion and debate,
and to sharpen one's knowledge. It's not necessary for improved
ball striking.

If you really study Geoff's grip and set up,and learn his 9-3 drill;
the essence of all this will come into a sharper focus when you
can SEE the results in your own swing: but it's not really a swing
when done right.
[/quote]
Thanks Conrad. I just downloaded his encyclopedia and have been working on his 9-3 drill (probably more like 10-2). I have no problem making solid contact with that drill. I get in trouble when I make a full swing. lol

I'll go through the encyclopedia. :-)

[Conrad1953]

Fats, you're truly blessed to have Geoff as a friend. I've never
met Geoff but read he is a true gentleman, as well as a great
teacher.

Even though I'm sure he knows, please pass along to him that
his original postings continue to be a great help to many of us
that are unable to go meet him.

I have read countless golf books. A paragraph from Geoff has
more value to me; because it's understandable and it works!

No threadjack intended. Geoff gets it when it comes to the
essence of Hogan. Maybe someday he'll get some free time
and toss us a few more nuggets, while we wait for his book!

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='downtoscratch' timestamp='1327267053' post='4135665']
Right hand/ palm matching clubface. Looking at Mr. Hogan in this Life magazine image it certainly appears to me that the right hand/palm does not perfectly match up with the leading edge of the clubface. It is evident from this still shot that the right forearm is wound over CCW and the hand goes the same way...... over and around the grip. His palm would more likely face inwards toward his right thigh. Look closely at the leading edge of the clubface..... is it not shaded open as well? I make this point here not to be contentious or win any debates but merely to share a view from one perspective with others here on this forum. As for the hand matching the face all is not lost by dint of this apparent departure here. IF the hand and clubface bear THE SAME relationship at impact as they do at address then it can be said that they match up perfectly............ just not identically parallel. Make sense? If you look at the sequence of b&w photos that accompanied this one it is only as the hands pass along the front of the right thigh that the right hand of Hogan comes to what might otherwise be called the 'thumb up/shake hands position. Another clue to how far over it was at address. This is but one example of the many curious angles Mr. Hogan took up at address. And every one of them had a certain purpose to be sure. DTS













<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/A3meWsEeZi0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> [url="http://youtu.be/A3meWsEeZi0"]http://youtu.be/A3meWsEeZi0[/url]
[/quote]

The right hand will look like its turned ccw and weaker relative to the clubface at face-on camera view ecause the hands are mid-body positioned. Period.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1327293820' post='4138165']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1327290179' post='4137893']
[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1327278273' post='4136665']
[quote name='fats' timestamp='1327276555' post='4136503']
Are his hands in the same position at address as they are at impact? Answer no.
[/quote]

Fats,

Certainly they are further targetwise at impact, but the relationship of his hands to EACH OTHER has appeared to change. Looks like maybe Mr. H's hands have rotated apart from the top of the handle ... left looks weaker and right looks stronger.

Or are my old eyes playing tricks on me (or maybe the single malt ... lol)?

Cheers,

mh
[/quote]

Why don't you just pick up from what Fats said? He's saying they're different, and they are. It appears to change because they are NOT in the same position, exactly as Fats said.

At address the left wrist is bent, right wrist sorta flat/straightened, and hands are mid-body. At impact left wrist is flat, hands more ahead nearer the target instead of mid body. With ball not changing, how do you think it will affect the shaft lean or unlean, and how you think it will affect the right hand position--which directly answers your right hand theory?

As a drill, why don't you mimic Hogan's address position exactly, then without changing the grip at all, move it to impact position. Now you think you twisted your right hand to get to that impact position? No, you just moved the clubhead back a bit, you removed the negative lean on the club, in the process your right hand/wrist bent back a bit so it looks like you twisted it...lol
[/quote]

Well, HG, tried your suggestion over a year ago when someone offered it. It's actually pretty easy to move your hands from midbody to impact fix without affecting the relationship of the hands to one another. Sorry, but moving to impact fix does not guarantee a strengthened right hand position.

As usual, we will just have to agree to disagree.
[/quote]

Yes it does. The left wrist is PFed, so it's strengthened. The right wrist is bent, so it's strengthened structurally. Doing both, the clubface opens relative to the ball and target, or in other words the face closure is delayed. That's why you feel a twisting of the right hand/wrist is necessary because it delays the face closure. How would you use the 3 right hands for power if you're just gonna twist it cw, which sometimes you call right hand/wrist supination?

[moehogan]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1327306173' post='4138517']
[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1327293820' post='4138165']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1327290179' post='4137893']
[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1327278273' post='4136665']
[quote name='fats' timestamp='1327276555' post='4136503']
Are his hands in the same position at address as they are at impact? Answer no.
[/quote]

Fats,

Certainly they are further targetwise at impact, but the relationship of his hands to EACH OTHER has appeared to change. Looks like maybe Mr. H's hands have rotated apart from the top of the handle ... left looks weaker and right looks stronger.

Or are my old eyes playing tricks on me (or maybe the single malt ... lol)?

Cheers,

mh
[/quote]

Why don't you just pick up from what Fats said? He's saying they're different, and they are. It appears to change because they are NOT in the same position, exactly as Fats said.

At address the left wrist is bent, right wrist sorta flat/straightened, and hands are mid-body. At impact left wrist is flat, hands more ahead nearer the target instead of mid body. With ball not changing, how do you think it will affect the shaft lean or unlean, and how you think it will affect the right hand position--which directly answers your right hand theory?

As a drill, why don't you mimic Hogan's address position exactly, then without changing the grip at all, move it to impact position. Now you think you twisted your right hand to get to that impact position? No, you just moved the clubhead back a bit, you removed the negative lean on the club, in the process your right hand/wrist bent back a bit so it looks like you twisted it...lol
[/quote]

Well, HG, tried your suggestion over a year ago when someone offered it. It's actually pretty easy to move your hands from midbody to impact fix without affecting the relationship of the hands to one another. Sorry, but moving to impact fix does not guarantee a strengthened right hand position.

As usual, we will just have to agree to disagree.
[/quote]

Yes it does. The left wrist is PFed, so it's strengthened. The right wrist is bent, so it's strengthened structurally. Doing both, the clubface opens relative to the ball and target, or in other words the face closure is delayed. That's why you feel a twisting of the right hand/wrist is necessary because it delays the face closure. How would you use the 3 right hands for power if you're just gonna twist it cw, which sometimes you call right hand/wrist supination?
[/quote]
Thanks, HG ... the last two sentences of your last post are exactly what I'm talking about. I think you might have me confused with another site member ... lol.

Left hand PF actually makes the left hand appear to weaken not strengthen. I said that the both hands twist APART from the top of the handle ... left hand trying to turn CCW and right hand trying to turn CW. That's what makes their relationship to EACH OTHER change. The left hand is trying to supinate but the right hand is opposing and won't let it ... that's what gives the appearance of left wrist PF. The PF is the result of these opposing forces, not a conscious move.

Lead hand trying to turn OVER while trail hand tries to work UNDER ... the result is an incredibly stable club face that allows you to hit hard with both hands. NOT saying that this is exactly what Mr. H did ... how would I know for sure. Just trying to offer a logical, reasoned explanation of what the pictures show.

mh

[Staffer]

[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1327324868' post='4138775']
Lead hand trying to turn OVER while trail hand tries to work UNDER ... the result is an incredibly stable club face that allows you to hit hard with both hands. NOT saying that this is exactly what Mr. H did ... how would I know for sure. Just trying to offer a logical, reasoned explanation of what the pictures show.

mh
[/quote]

No offense meant, but isnt that just chicken winging it? Hogan certainly knew how to do that, being the shotmaker he was, but....

Its a perfectly good way to hit the ball, but it costs you distance. Hogan was quite specific in that he would never give away distance. So, there is footage of him doing it, but it certainly wasnt the norm. In addition, it is impossible to draw the ball using that action, and Hogan was as good a drawer as anyone.

My 5 cents...

[drewspin]

[quote name='fats' timestamp='1327258236' post='4134977']
Lots of fabulous teachers out there.
[/quote]

None better than you, my friend!

[drewspin]

[ADDRESS hands v. IMPACT hands ... How DOES he do that? ;)

 

 

MH -

 

Schedule yourself into the ATL and find out how simple it is.

 

Seriously.

 

Best,

Drew

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1327324868' post='4138775']
]
Thanks, HG ... the last two sentences of your last post are exactly what I'm talking about. I think you might have me confused with another site member ... lol.

Left hand PF actually makes the left hand appear to weaken not strengthen. I said that the both hands twist APART from the top of the handle ... left hand trying to turn CCW and right hand trying to turn CW. That's what makes their relationship to EACH OTHER change. The left hand is trying to supinate but the right hand is opposing and won't let it ... that's what gives the appearance of left wrist PF. The PF is the result of these opposing forces, not a conscious move.

Lead hand trying to turn OVER while trail hand tries to work UNDER ... the result is an incredibly stable club face that allows you to hit hard with both hands. NOT saying that this is exactly what Mr. H did ... how would I know for sure. Just trying to offer a logical, reasoned explanation of what the pictures show.

mh
[/quote]

Lol..yeah, I think I got confused..can't believe no posts from him at all...lol

By strengthened I thought you're referring to "strength" of left wrist vis-a-vis "strong-ness" of grip.

But MH, isn't the twisting apart, which is very minimal in my eye btw, just a natural consequence of the left wris flat and right hand hitting as hard as it can? I think Hogan is really hitting hard with that 3 right hands thru the left side of right index finger between the big and second knuckles (whew...PP3 in TGM-speak...teacher that's much simpler..to type that is...lol).

The only possible way IMO to not make them apart even a bit is to hit hard with the wrist itself and base of the palm of the right hand. But then, that alone would be inconsistent with what Hogan said in the Coleman video re PP3 going "forward" towards the target, ain't it?

So I'd say...he just hit hard with the 3 right hands with an additional simple thought of relating or matching the right hand with the clubface as Fats said. Doesn't matter whether or not the wrists/hands are torn apart as long as the clubface is square and left wrist is not flipping (remains flat), correct?

I'm still wondering up to this day what's Hogan's secret though...if there's somebody here who knows, I'd say it's Mr. Fats...so I'm all ears...