Fix my head problem please! 0 Handicap.

[AlanPartridge]

Hi guys,

 

Here's my swing, I know I should be a lot better, especially distance wise which I lack a bit.

 

One thing I notice is my head moves back a lot just before impact, this causes my head to come up very late and restrict my follow through a bit. Any tips why I might be doing this with my head and how I can fix it would be much appreciated. Any other tips are welcomed as well!

 

Cheers!

 

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[Hstead]

Please take this advice for what it is costing you as I am not a pro and maybe when Monte or Russ or Dan chime in they may have a different and more knowledgeable view. I think maybe you may need to get into a little better setup position, more reverse K with a little more tilt to begin with. I think you are restricting your hip turn quite a bit, and then when coming down, it is hard to tell on the video, but it looks like you are losing your leverage and angle a little early, a touch of a cast which would definitely cost distance.

Again, I am truely an amateur so let's see what the pros have to say.

[AlanPartridge]

Thanks for the advise! Is that a reverse K from the front angle, so I should tilt my hips a little more to the left and lean a little more to the right? I agree 100% on the casting as well, I've noticed this before, do you have any idea why I might be doing this?

[AlanPartridge]

Lol, a bit random. Anyone else that can offer some advise?

[Hstead]

[quote name='AlanPartridge' timestamp='1359577167' post='6331531']
Thanks for the advise! Is that a reverse K from the front angle, so I should tilt my hips a little more to the left and lean a little more to the right? I agree 100% on the casting as well, I've noticed this before, do you have any idea why I might be doing this?
[/quote]

Yes, depends on the club too but that looks like a mid iron so I would bump my left hip towards the target a little which will naturally have your spine titled a little. It will make it easier to turn behind the ball without swaying which you do not do anyway.

As for the casting, that one is tough. Your swing looks pretty good at the top and you pivot well coming down, it is just a little more of holding the angle in your right wrist more which is hard to think of. There are some one armed swing drills that help this as well as starting with the face dead closed so you have to hold the face open coming down. Close the face at address and hit little shots at first to feel what it is like to hold those angles. You will find that you compress the ball better and hit it farther.

[AlanPartridge]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1359581989' post='6332115']
[quote name='AlanPartridge' timestamp='1359577167' post='6331531']
Thanks for the advise! Is that a reverse K from the front angle, so I should tilt my hips a little more to the left and lean a little more to the right? I agree 100% on the casting as well, I've noticed this before, do you have any idea why I might be doing this?
[/quote]

Yes, depends on the club too but that looks like a mid iron so I would bump my left hip towards the target a little which will naturally have your spine titled a little. It will make it easier to turn behind the ball without swaying which you do not do anyway.

As for the casting, that one is tough. Your swing looks pretty good at the top and you pivot well coming down, it is just a little more of holding the angle in your right wrist more which is hard to think of. There are some one armed swing drills that help this as well as starting with the face dead closed so you have to hold the face open coming down. Close the face at address and hit little shots at first to feel what it is like to hold those angles. You will find that you compress the ball better and hit it farther.
[/quote]

Maybe you should think about turning pro because all that stuff makes sense! I will definitely try all your suggestions tomorrow. I'm thinking that the early release maybe causes my head to move back just before impact as well. I used to come over the top and struggle with a slice, I'm thinking that maybe the early release was a way of saving the shot and it has stayed with me. Thanks dude!

[Hstead]

Don't thank me yet, lol wait til you try it. I have been to 5 teachers on the GM Top 100, of which only one I felt like was really good, Todd Sones. I have worked with Mic Potter, Alambam's women's coach for nearly 20 years. He has taught me the most of what I believe. I have also read about every book ever published relating to the golf swing lol. I really like to study the swing etc. I have recently been reading Geoff Jones' stuff and am heading there in a week or so. I like to think I know a little bit about the golf swing, but I can tell you right now that when Dan, Monte, or Russ chime in a lot of times they see things that I don't. I have to have really good video quality to see certain things whereas they do not seem to. They can have a crappy dark non slo-mo video and pick stuff up that I just do not see until after they post it and I go back and look and then say "oh now I see that". So hopefully one or all of them will chime in and either confirm or find fault with my suggestions, and frankly I would listen to them first.

[Jarri]

Mate, your swing is very very good... reminded me immediately of Luke Donald.. unless you are facing specific problems (which you haven't shared) besides the distance you mentioned, I'd keep this swing than to have to go through a lot of changes to gain another 20 yards.

 

 

Your head moving backwards is a GOOD thing for YOUR swing as it provides the necessary axis tilt at impact that you are not setting at address. If this was not happening, you'd be a nightmare for fairway keeper as you will plough through every fairway you visited.

 

 

Try this... stand in front of a mirror and then move your hips laterally to left (as we do in golf swing), you will see that your head does not only drop but also moves to the right... That's driven by the spine axis tilting to the right and our heads like to keep alignment to our spines. :)... I wouldn't worry about it too much, even though you can try by setting up with some axis tilt.

 

 

About your distance, that's a product of classic (beautiful though) swing compared to modern (efficient but not as beautiful) swing.

 

 

We all know that speed generated by core is the biggest contributor to a golf swing speed (in sequence)... something closer to 1 mph hip rotation = 25 mph club head speed... with the classic cross-over release, hips HAVE to stall to allow hands to pass through and cross over... The result in lower speed compared to modern pivot driven swings. You can counter this by generating more arms speed but that kills the consistency in the process.

 

 

To substantiate my claim.. look at the 2 pics below... look at your fly... it has barely moved between the 2 pics while your arms/hands covered more than 4 feet of distance.

 

 

 

Now look at the sequence of a pure classic cross-over release (you and luke donald) vs. a fully pivot driven release (hunter mahan).

 

 

All 3 The SAME

Not Too different, though you run out the arms quick as you swing away (your hands farther from the body than either of the other two)

You and Luke have to stall (look at your and luke's hips do not move much from @impact pic compared to hunters that continue to turn) to cross-over (butt end of the club point straight back at the camera)... Hunter releases with pivot (butt end of the club continuing to point at his belt buckle)

[Jarri]

If you want to have a feel for pivot driven release.... do this.

Take your normal stance, go to the top of your back swing.... Now drop your arms (like in normal swing) until the club is parallel to the ground... like in the first set of yours/lukes/hunter's swing...

From there don't do anything EXCEPT TURN down and through with right shoulder working down and under... it sounds impossible that turning of the body alone can take the club from that position to the ball, but you will be surprised that it does SO LONG as you keep your spine angle and your right shoulder works down instead of around.

How your right shoulder works defines how much lag you will carry into impact... we are talking a completely different set of feels...

Monte had a very nice video on this... will try to find it.

[Jarri]

BUT as you are a scratch player, you must have put in years of hard work into this swing...

Think a million time before scraping your current swing to move to pivot driven release... you may never achieve that and may never be able to come back to what you have today either.

[Jarri]

[quote name='AlanPartridge' timestamp='1359577167' post='6331531']
Thanks for the advise! Is that a reverse K from the front angle, so I should tilt my hips a little more to the left and lean a little more to the right? I agree 100% on the casting as well, I've noticed this before, do you have any idea why I might be doing this?
[/quote]

What are your current distances?

It's funny that as soon as someone says they are not getting enough distance, we immediately jump to casting and not maintaining angles.

Look at the coming-into-impact positions for yourself / luke and Hunter... tell me if they have maintained more angle... you are all at the same point with shaft parallel to the ground... Can you get more leverage? YES... will it mean inconsistency... ABSOLUTELY (think Sergio Garcia / Phil Mickelson)...

It's the difference between what happens from this position onwards... with you and luke going down-the-line with cross over release, you HAVE to let go of the angle (from 90° this way to 90° the other way)... with hunter, he can maintain his wrist c0ck and just turn through. A luxury that's the by product of pivot and not the other way around.

Hope this makes sense.

[AlanPartridge]

[quote name='Jarri' timestamp='1360581191' post='6404993']
BUT as you are a scratch player, you must have put in years of hard work into this swing...

Think a million time before scraping your current swing to move to pivot driven release... you may never achieve that and may never be able to come back to what you have today either.
[/quote]

Jarri,

Thanks a million for taking the time to post such a detailed response for me! I eventually want to reach a +5 handicap and I don't think my short game is good enough to allow me to get there with my length. I think I am willing to sacrifice even a year of bad play to get more distance which is for the majority of people what you need to compete at the highest level. Would you say people like Adam Scott and Charl Schwartzel have a pivot driven release as well? To get a feeling for the release should I force my body to keep turning through impact and sort of face the target earlier than I am at the moment, or is that incorrect for the pivot driven release? Or would it be better to feel that everything swings to the left after impact? Again thank you so much for your input. Are you a coaching pro? Because I would seriously consider employing you if you are!

Russell

[Jarri]

Charl is more down the line (not as much as Luke though) and Adam is more pivot release left... the easiest way to tell is look at the butt end of the club and see if it keeps pointing at the belt buckle or starts pointing backwards towards the camera...

However, people fall on the spectrum... it's not either or...

Tiger is a curious case of pivot release with short and mid iron and more down the line release with woods and long irons.

Pivot release by itself does not give you power... and arms release does not rob of you either...In fact, by the very nature of it, slinging motion of arm release can infact add to distance.

The KEY difference is that arm driven swing is DELIBERATE and depends on timing. there is a limit to how fast you can move all the pieces before disrupting the sync... you can still hit it miles (think Fred Couples, Phil Mickelson, Vijay Singh) but you'll need IMMACULATE timing... these guys hit 100s of balls every day and can still have timing issues... what hope is there for us?

Pivot release on the other hand does not depend on timing (but on sequence)... so you can go after the ball hard without having to time your release as you DO NOT release at all... your pivot turning down and through releases it FOR YOU. (Think Dustin Johnson)

If you are really really dedicated (and realize you are going to venture into a haystack to find the needle without professional help), I am willing to help through this forum and videos as much as I can. But I would strongly advice getting someone who can work with you in person. It's very difficult to work through words and pictures.

How tall are you and what are your current distances... let's go from there.

[Jarri]

[quote name='AlanPartridge' timestamp='1360585922' post='6405117']
[quote name='Jarri' timestamp='1360581191' post='6404993']
BUT as you are a scratch player, you must have put in years of hard work into this swing...

Think a million time before scraping your current swing to move to pivot driven release... you may never achieve that and may never be able to come back to what you have today either.
[/quote]

Jarri,

Thanks a million for taking the time to post such a detailed response for me! I eventually want to reach a +5 handicap and I don't think my short game is good enough to allow me to get there with my length. [b]I think I am willing to sacrifice even a year of bad play[/b] to get more distance which is for the majority of people what you need to compete at the highest level. Would you say people like Adam Scott and Charl Schwartzel have a pivot driven release as well? To get a feeling for the release [b]should I force my body to keep turning through impact and sort of face the target earlier than I am at the moment[/b], or is that incorrect for the pivot driven release? Or would it be better to feel that everything swings to the left after impact? Again thank you so much for your input. Are you a coaching pro? Because I would seriously consider employing you if you are!

Russell
[/quote]

That's the danger of internet forums... you can jump to trying new things and before you know it everything you had working for you is also gone.

FORCING is never a good idea... things work in chain... the only way to incorporate a change is to start from first link which in your case would be how the arms / club and body works in pivot driven release.

I will do a small video tonight when I get back home to help you with understanding how the pivot release REALLY works.

PS: It will take more than a year with applied practice to automate the new swing to an extent that you can really GO AFTER it knowing everything will automatically follow the course. As I normally say 'Practice doesn't make perfect, it only makes permanent'.

[Dpavs]

One thing I immediately saw in Jarri's pictures was that Alan's legs do not look as relaxed (less knee flex) as any of the pro's.
I'm probably not sage enough to comment on this but maybe someone can if there is even anything there to comment on.

[Jarri]

[quote name='Dpavs' timestamp='1360590000' post='6405355']
One thing I immediately saw in Jarri's pictures was that Alan's legs do not look as relaxed (less knee flex) as any of the pro's.
I'm probably not sage enough to comment on this but maybe someone can if there is even anything there to comment on.
[/quote]

Good observation... wanted to comment on that but didn't as didn't want to introduce too many elements...

That's a product of his arms working away (farther) from the body (guess in an attempt to swing out as is preached so strongly in the golfing world).. the result is that the left wrist need to unhinge (Ulnar Deviation = unhinging the left wrist towards the pinky) otherwise you will fly the club over the ball without even touching it. This increases the radius of the arc club is traveling on so his body senses it has to straighten the knees to compensate for the additional length of the arc... that's all cause and effect.

Same reason why he has no bend in his right arm at impact while both pros do...

One Cause Two effects.

Do this simple test... take the club back and swing your arms outwards, you'll immediately sense your knees straightening.... Now take the club back and this time drop your hands closer to the body... Knees keep their flex.

Simple fix... DON'T swing outwards... LET the hands fall... they will automatically fall straight down unless you guide them out.

if his hands were lower (closer and lower like Luke), his hips will not outrace his arms (see the very first face-on picture where his belt is pointing to the target while the hands are still at the right leg) he'd maintain the knee flex automatically.

[AlanPartridge]

[quote name='Jarri' timestamp='1360590992' post='6405445']
[quote name='Dpavs' timestamp='1360590000' post='6405355']
One thing I immediately saw in Jarri's pictures was that Alan's legs do not look as relaxed (less knee flex) as any of the pro's.
I'm probably not sage enough to comment on this but maybe someone can if there is even anything there to comment on.
[/quote]

Good observation... wanted to comment on that but didn't as didn't want to introduce too many elements...

That's a product of his arms working away (farther) from the body (guess in an attempt to swing out as is preached so strongly in the golfing world).. the result is that the left wrist need to unhinge (Ulnar Deviation = unhinging the left wrist towards the pinky) otherwise you will fly the club over the ball without even touching it. This increases the radius of the arc club is traveling on so his body senses it has to straighten the knees to compensate for the additional length of the arc... that's all cause and effect.

Same reason why he has no bend in his right arm at impact while both pros do...

One Cause Two effects.

Do this simple test... take the club back and swing your arms outwards, you'll immediately sense your knees straightening.... Now take the club back and this time drop your hands closer to the body... Knees keep their flex.

Simple fix... DON'T swing outwards... LET the hands fall... they will automatically fall straight down unless you guide them out.

if his hands were lower (closer and lower like Luke), his hips will not outrace his arms (see the very first face-on picture where his belt is pointing to the target while the hands are still at the right leg) he'd maintain the knee flex automatically.
[/quote]

I am 6 foot 1 and my 8 iron carry is about 150, total driver distance is about 275. I am hoping that moving towards a pivot release and having body more connected to arms might stop my arms swinging outwards as you mentioned and cure both problems. To simplify at the range I will try setting up with a touch more tilt and turn my right shoulder under and through impact, keeping my arms more in front of my body rather than swinging past my left side. Doing practice swings with that feeling it definitely feels as though my arms and body are a lot more connected! Thanks Jarri!

[Dpavs]

[quote name='AlanPartridge' timestamp='1360593880' post='6405757']
[quote name='Jarri' timestamp='1360590992' post='6405445']
[quote name='Dpavs' timestamp='1360590000' post='6405355']
One thing I immediately saw in Jarri's pictures was that Alan's legs do not look as relaxed (less knee flex) as any of the pro's.
I'm probably not sage enough to comment on this but maybe someone can if there is even anything there to comment on.
[/quote]

Good observation... wanted to comment on that but didn't as didn't want to introduce too many elements...

That's a product of his arms working away (farther) from the body (guess in an attempt to swing out as is preached so strongly in the golfing world).. the result is that the left wrist need to unhinge (Ulnar Deviation = unhinging the left wrist towards the pinky) otherwise you will fly the club over the ball without even touching it. This increases the radius of the arc club is traveling on so his body senses it has to straighten the knees to compensate for the additional length of the arc... that's all cause and effect.

Same reason why he has no bend in his right arm at impact while both pros do...

One Cause Two effects.

Do this simple test... take the club back and swing your arms outwards, you'll immediately sense your knees straightening.... Now take the club back and this time drop your hands closer to the body... Knees keep their flex.

Simple fix... DON'T swing outwards... LET the hands fall... they will automatically fall straight down unless you guide them out.

if his hands were lower (closer and lower like Luke), his hips will not outrace his arms (see the very first face-on picture where his belt is pointing to the target while the hands are still at the right leg) he'd maintain the knee flex automatically.
[/quote]

I am 6 foot 1 and my 8 iron carry is about 150, total driver distance is about 275. I am hoping that moving towards a pivot release and having body more connected to arms might stop my arms swinging outwards as you mentioned and cure both problems. To simplify at the range I will try setting up with a touch more tilt and turn my right shoulder under and through impact, keeping my arms more in front of my body rather than swinging past my left side. Doing practice swings with that feeling it definitely feels as though my arms and body are a lot more connected! Thanks Jarri!
[/quote]


That makes total sense! Very nicely articulated posts Jarri, Do you give golf instruction as part of your work?

[Jarri]

[quote name='AlanPartridge' timestamp='1360593880' post='6405757']

I am 6 foot 1 and my 8 iron carry is about 150, total driver distance is about 275. I am hoping that moving towards a pivot release and having body more connected to arms might stop my arms swinging outwards as you mentioned and cure both problems. To simplify at the range I will try setting up with a touch more tilt and turn my right shoulder under and through impact, keeping my arms more in front of my body rather than swinging past my left side. Doing practice swings with that feeling it definitely feels as though my arms and body are a lot more connected! Thanks Jarri!
[/quote]

Mate, I wouldn't want you to start trying new ideas on the range with full swings... that's a recipe for frustration and rejection of new things you are trying...

Your body is used to working in a certain way. It's not going to like the new ways of moving and will reject it and will want to go back.

As I said, practice makes permanent. New moves will require tons of repetition... i'll get to this in a min, but before we go there one more word of caution.

Expectation... the muscles your body will need for pivot release are different from the ones you are using today... so even if you catch one perfectly with the new release perfectly executed, the ball will not fly even as far as it does with you current release.... why? Because the muscles that are driving the new release are not strong YET.

Let's start with baby steps... I went home for lunch and quickly put this video on youtube.

What I will suggest you do (and you don't need driving range for this) do this

1. Without a ball first to just get a feeling... I'd say 10 repetitions and then stop and then 10 repetitions and so on. What you are looking for is a feeling that that your right wrist does not uncock... whatever set it has 2 feet before the ball continues way through into the followthrough.

2. Once you feel you have a hang of it... put a ball and then hit the ball the same way... don't go full backswing... not even half... just to where the club is parallel to the ground to where you see me finishing in the follow through... Start with lower lofted club (as against intuition, they will be easier to hit)... move your way into 8 and 9 irons and eventually your sw.

It will take at least a week to master this...

CHANGE: Your ball position will need to change as you will be entering the ground (carpet) earlier than your normal release... swing does not follow ball position... ball position follows swing arc.

Now to the video...

Self explanatory so I didn't speak during the video. the first part is cross over release that you have today... see the back of my left hand taking a full 180 degree turn to get the arms to cross over... it's not the right hand, it's the left that drives the release. (don't mind me not being able to hit the ground.. this one is very unnatural for me)

The second set is the release you are after... your aim is to deliver the club to the ball from just-past-parallel-on-downswing position to the ball WITHOUT involving your arm / wrist / hand or anything that's part of the hands/arms unit.... you will notice that you need to keep your hands closer to the body to do so, otherwise you will not hit the ground at all.

THE MAIN ADVANTAGE of this release is that it's not dependent on timing while the first one you can imagine needs precise timely to square the face.

Hit at least a 100 balls with this every day (at your home) and then post a video of you hitting the ball this way... then we'll continue with building it up to 9 to 3...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOBJlNiy6LA

[Jarri]

 

 

That makes total sense! Very nicely articulated posts Jarri, Do you give golf instruction as part of your work?

 

Thanks Dpavs.

 

No I do not give golf instructions... but I have a craze for understanding the golf swings... Most of the teachings you will find from very qualified teachers is do this, hold that angle, get in this position etc... I grew dislike for this very quickly and moved on to understand what causes what... the conclusion I have come to is.

 

It's all in the SET UP and BACKSWING... there is absolutely nothing you need to do in the downswing other than maintain your posture and balance.

 

As an example, and omitted this as this was yet another element... the reason Alan's arms move outwards is that on the backswing his arms move inwards.

 

Look at below pic... if you arms make an angle inwards going back, which direction do you think they would go on the downswing? It's all in the backswing. Look at Adam Scott... which way do you feel his will go on the through swing...