The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1440156685' post='12181612']
[quote name='Golfbeat' timestamp='1440156261' post='12181590']
Jim, I purchased Module 2 a few days ago and it has clarified a lot of my thinking about the ASI. One thing that it not completely clear is how the left wrist goes from slightly cupped at address to straight or in your case slightly bowed when doing the push away. Do you actively twist the wrists to get in that position or should it go automatically and I do something wrong?
[/quote]

Very interested to hear this as I am working on this exact thing. When I have watched Jims discription of wrist action it is upward cocking with the right hand hinging backwards something in the region of 20*. I was cupped at p3 and p4 so I have worked on hinging the right hand back and it looks good at p3 . I do think that this right hinging has to occur when the push away starts to happen as starting before p2 will take you off plane which seems easy to happen actually

Interested in JW thoughts on this too
[/quote]

If you hinge too much, and/or too quickly, the clubhead will come inside the plane. You have to hinge and c0ck at the same time. And blend in with arm pushaway. But not waiting till P2, it should start right away or perhaps about 1/3 into the takeaway, which will feel to most golfers like right away.

[starsail85]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1440174579' post='12183236']
[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1440156685' post='12181612']
[quote name='Golfbeat' timestamp='1440156261' post='12181590']
Jim, I purchased Module 2 a few days ago and it has clarified a lot of my thinking about the ASI. One thing that it not completely clear is how the left wrist goes from slightly cupped at address to straight or in your case slightly bowed when doing the push away. Do you actively twist the wrists to get in that position or should it go automatically and I do something wrong?
[/quote]

Very interested to hear this as I am working on this exact thing. When I have watched Jims discription of wrist action it is upward cocking with the right hand hinging backwards something in the region of 20*. I was cupped at p3 and p4 so I have worked on hinging the right hand back and it looks good at p3 . I do think that this right hinging has to occur when the push away starts to happen as starting before p2 will take you off plane which seems easy to happen actually

Interested in JW thoughts on this too
[/quote]

If you hinge too much, and/or too quickly, the clubhead will come inside the plane. You have to hinge and c0ck at the same time. And blend in with arm pushaway. But not waiting till P2, it should start right away or perhaps about 1/3 into the takeaway, which will feel to most golfers like right away.
[/quote]

So is it fair to say there has to be a specific ratio of upward cocking and right wrist bend to achieve on plane in the first part of the takeaway? As in not enough upward cocking early on would make it appear under plane at this stage but when the the cocking does occur the club is back on track . Do these ratios matter in a functional way to the golf swing or is all that really matters is that the wrists eventually get to the correct positions at the end of their range of motion?

In other words if a player had alittle more back hinge of the right wrist than he/she had upward cocking of the wrists in the early stages of the takeaway say p1.5 but the rest of the takeaway up to p3 was a higher amount of upward cocking and a lower amount of right hand hinge to essentially achieve the same position as a perfect motion at p3 ....would there be any need to change it?

It would make sense to me the club was on plane at all
Stages in the backswing , as this in my opinion would allow a player to pitch well from any length of backswing , people who are off plane may struggle to pitch well from certain positions in their backswing without an individual to that swing length compensation , which might explain why some people don't like partial wedge shots

Any sense to my thinking here?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1440179845' post='12183904']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1440174579' post='12183236']
[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1440156685' post='12181612']
[quote name='Golfbeat' timestamp='1440156261' post='12181590']
Jim, I purchased Module 2 a few days ago and it has clarified a lot of my thinking about the ASI. One thing that it not completely clear is how the left wrist goes from slightly cupped at address to straight or in your case slightly bowed when doing the push away. Do you actively twist the wrists to get in that position or should it go automatically and I do something wrong?
[/quote]

Very interested to hear this as I am working on this exact thing. When I have watched Jims discription of wrist action it is upward cocking with the right hand hinging backwards something in the region of 20*. I was cupped at p3 and p4 so I have worked on hinging the right hand back and it looks good at p3 . I do think that this right hinging has to occur when the push away starts to happen as starting before p2 will take you off plane which seems easy to happen actually

Interested in JW thoughts on this too
[/quote]

If you hinge too much, and/or too quickly, the clubhead will come inside the plane. You have to hinge and c0ck at the same time. And blend in with arm pushaway. But not waiting till P2, it should start right away or perhaps about 1/3 into the takeaway, which will feel to most golfers like right away.
[/quote]

So is it fair to say there has to be a specific ratio of upward cocking and right wrist bend to achieve on plane in the first part of the takeaway? As in not enough upward cocking early on would make it appear under plane at this stage but when the the cocking does occur the club is back on track . Do these ratios matter in a functional way to the golf swing or is all that really matters is that the wrists eventually get to the correct positions at the end of their range of motion?

In other words if a player had alittle more back hinge of the right wrist than he/she had upward cocking of the wrists in the early stages of the takeaway say p1.5 but the rest of the takeaway up to p3 was a higher amount of upward cocking and a lower amount of right hand hinge to essentially achieve the same position as a perfect motion at p3 ....would there be any need to change it?

It would make sense to me the club was on plane at all
Stages in the backswing , as this in my opinion would allow a player to pitch well from any length of backswing , people who are off plane may struggle to pitch well from certain positions in their backswing without an individual to that swing length compensation , which might explain why some people don't like partial wedge shots

Any sense to my thinking here?
[/quote]

To simplify, you want an on plane shaft motion, or at least in the ballpark. A little outside or inside is okay. You dont want a lot out or in though.

So you just have to play around with the main elements to see how they blend to create an on plane motion, ie using a mirror or even better a plane board. Yes - the ratio of hinge and c0ck has to be correct to keep the shaft from being to under or over the plane.

Yes - for shorter backswings as in pitching, the on plane shaft is even more useful and necessary even. Less time to recover from a shorter top of backswing if you are not on plane.

[mc3jack]

[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1440051916' post='12174570']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1440038687' post='12173804']
[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1440010465' post='12170744']
Just to clarify with the correct motion where should the hands be looking Dtl in p3, that's hands in relation to body...centre of chest?


Left arm should be inside the toe line not pointing down it also at p3?
[/quote]

About center of chest, left arm inside toe line. From camera halfway between toe line and target line.

But - that is a 2D view. You can also use the model information - about 75 degrees shoulder girdle rotation, left side bend complete or nearly so, 45-70 degree left arm to chest angle (depends on club).
[/quote]

That's great info thanks, I guess the 2d reference points are important to those who don't have the full perspective like myself

I am guessing that this 75 degree shoulder girdle rotation is the sum of all the parts yes? Knees hips and thoracic movements combined?

The left side right side bends replacing forward bends is a concept I nearly understand but I can't see it in the golf swing clearly, it really does seem like an odyssey to me at the minute , where is the best information source for this movement?
[/quote]

You can actually show it to yourself! I'm sure someone has made a video of this, or its in one of Jim's video modules....but here's how to do it:

Face a mirror. You are now looking away from the target, i.e., as if you're talking to someone standing in your backswing.

Make your arm triangle, push it away from your chest, raise your arms about 4 inches or so and hinge your wrists.

Now, still standing erect with your arms in this position.....tilt your upper thoracic spine to the left. Notice how your shoulder now has moved to where it usually is in relation to your hands when you've made a backswing?

Last step: DO NOT move your arms or change your sideways tilt.....only move your feet underneath you to the left, so your hips knees etc are 'facing the ball'..while your upper body is still facing the mirror, talking to the guy in your backswing What do you see?

You see that your chest is NOT facing the target line, your spine angle is actually created by the leftward thoracic tilt, and you look like you've made a nice deep backswing, with the club in a good position at the top. Amazing!

When Jim talks about the second most important illusion being this leftward tilt, he's absolutely correct. What most golfers do is try to keep their chest pointed at the target line, and TWIST the muscles in their backs and fascia around the spine, and depending on their upper body flexibility, move their arms into all sorts of contortions and then FLING them back across their chests! The ASI and the leftward tilt (or lack thereof) go hand in hand. If anything, not knowing the left tilt helps cause ASI.

Important: The "tilt" is actually a curvature of the upper thoracic spine. The spine has gear-like 'teeth' surrounding it. When you curve it, this engages the "gears" that give freedom to turn. Twist without engaging the gears and your stretching/tearing fascia.

<<<< Mc3jack editing out Miyahara after taking a closer look at his new site. Just too confusing >>>>>

And here's something about J-spine, or google the term for more

[url="http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2015/06/08/412314701/lost-posture-why-indigenous-cultures-dont-have-back-pain"]Lost Posture: Why Some Indigenous Cultures May Not Have Back Pain : Goats and Soda : NPR[/url]

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='mc3jack' timestamp='1440186802' post='12184584']
[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1440051916' post='12174570']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1440038687' post='12173804']
[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1440010465' post='12170744']
Just to clarify with the correct motion where should the hands be looking Dtl in p3, that's hands in relation to body...centre of chest?


Left arm should be inside the toe line not pointing down it also at p3?
[/quote]

About center of chest, left arm inside toe line. From camera halfway between toe line and target line.

But - that is a 2D view. You can also use the model information - about 75 degrees shoulder girdle rotation, left side bend complete or nearly so, 45-70 degree left arm to chest angle (depends on club).
[/quote]

That's great info thanks, I guess the 2d reference points are important to those who don't have the full perspective like myself

I am guessing that this 75 degree shoulder girdle rotation is the sum of all the parts yes? Knees hips and thoracic movements combined?

The left side right side bends replacing forward bends is a concept I nearly understand but I can't see it in the golf swing clearly, it really does seem like an odyssey to me at the minute , where is the best information source for this movement?
[/quote]

You can actually show it to yourself! I'm sure someone has made a video of this, or its in one of Jim's video modules....but here's how to do it:

Face a mirror. You are now looking away from the target, i.e., as if you're talking to someone standing in your backswing.

Make your arm triangle, push it away from your chest, raise your arms about 4 inches or so and hinge your wrists.

Now, still standing erect with your arms in this position.....tilt your upper thoracic spine to the left. Notice how your shoulder now has moved to where it usually is in relation to your hands when you've made a backswing?

Last step: DO NOT move your arms or change your sideways tilt.....only move your feet underneath you to the left, so your hips knees etc are 'facing the ball'..while your upper body is still facing the mirror, talking to the guy in your backswing What do you see?

You see that your chest is NOT facing the target line, your spine angle is actually created by the leftward thoracic tilt, and you look like you've made a nice deep backswing, with the club in a good position at the top. Amazing!

When Jim talks about the second most important illusion being this leftward tilt, he's absolutely correct. What most golfers do is try to keep their chest pointed at the target line, and TWIST the muscles in their backs and fascia around the spine, and depending on their upper body flexibility, move their arms into all sorts of contortions and then FLING them back across their chests! The ASI and the leftward tilt (or lack thereof) go hand in hand. If anything, not knowing the left tilt helps cause ASI.

Important: The "tilt" is actually a curvature of the upper thoracic spine. The spine has gear-like 'teeth' surrounding it. When you curve it, this engages the "gears" that give freedom to turn. Twist without engaging the gears and your stretching/tearing fascia.

You'll need to ignore a lot of his 2D picture silliness, but Kelvin Miyahara has given a good explanation of how thoracic lordosis (that's what the left tilt is) works and why it's good. He also goes into tailbone tilt and shift, another thing related to Jim's teaching. Another caveat: Kelvin also talks about lumbar lordosis in other articles. . . . Jim doesn't advocate as much lordosis and appears to use J-spine methodology in his teaching. J-spine is superior because strengthens inner abs and glutes, is essential to a stable pivot and swing balance, and still has enough lordosis to work well. OK.....here's Kelvin's website.

[url="http://kelvinmiyahira.com/articles/20-2011-articles/59-2011-01-whats-a-shoulder-turn-part-2"]2011-01 : Whats A Shoulder Turn Part 1?[/url]

And here's something about J-spine, or google the term for more

[url="http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2015/06/08/412314701/lost-posture-why-indigenous-cultures-dont-have-back-pain"]Lost Posture: Why Some Indigenous Cultures May Not Have Back Pain : Goats and Soda : NPR[/url]
[/quote]

Great insights! Yes, I cover the basics of left and right tilt in the Module One videos, in Part B and C especially. And will go into the concept in depth in Module 4 which is entirely devoted to the technical details of the Pivot.

I agree with you that most folks try to keep their chest more or less steady, or with just a minimal rotation, and then try to move their fascia and their arms around their spine. It is the essence of the ASI to do that. And great understanding how the left tilt illusion and the arm swing illusion reinforce each other.

Those two illusions, or seeing through them, radically changes ones understanding of the "golf swing", meaning it not remotely close to being a true "swinging" motion, but rather a blend of a tilt/rotation of the torso, and a pushing away or slinging arm motion.

[pdaveri]

Hello everybody, this is my very first post here.
I'm a golf instructor from Italy and recently, after reading Jimmy Ballard's book and looked at the presentation of Leadbetter's A Swing (far from revolutionary or new swing, I have to say), I'm working hard on the connection, on my own swing and my students'. Starting from the MOVE AWAY (I love that term), avoiding the hands pulling inside the club, to a backswing position with models like Francesco Molinari or Jordan Spieth (my students find easy to swing it back with repetitiveness keeping the left arm almost bended).

Anyway I didn't know anything about Jim Waldron's theory, but a couple of videos and his very sharp answers enlightned me. At first glance it looks exactly what I was looking for: an easy and consistent way to keep body and arms in sync. I'm pretty sure that most of swing issues come from a misleading use of the arms, expecially at the very beginning of the action.
My father, who's also my lifetime teacher and mentor, always used to say "do not think about lifting the arms, just bend the right arm and the left arm will rise by itself" but never focused on the move away action. The way Jim teaches how to swing the club back appear to me as really far from commercial purposes: innovative but not too cerebral, easily understandable and repeatable.

So I'd like to thank Kiwi for bringing to my attention mr. Waldron's work, which I'm gonna follow with huge attention from now on, in order to get deeper into his philosophy, and maybe have the chance to work with him someday in the future.

[zetazeta]

I was just on the golf subreddit and watched Jim Waldron's video demonstrating this and learned a lot! Can't wait to test it at the range later this afternoon. I just started this sport so I'm glad to have found this early on when I'm still learning the swing.

[Trane5]

Hi Jim, so I performed the Jug McSpadden drill this evening at the range, and WOW!!! I posted my feedback in the topic thread below. But I want to get some of your info and start to learn it.....what would you recommend 1st? (E book that I saw on your Facebook group, or the arm swing illusion module or the first module.) I'm a 7.6 looking to continue to drop my handicap. I play 2-3 times each week and practice about 3-4 times per week. Appreciate your feed back! For what it's worth....I was telling my buddies and the assistant club pro about you and your stuff this evening! Good stuff! Thanks

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='pdaveri' timestamp='1440256271' post='12188884']
Hello everybody, this is my very first post here.
I'm a golf instructor from Italy and recently, after reading Jimmy Ballard's book and looked at the presentation of Leadbetter's A Swing (far from revolutionary or new swing, I have to say), I'm working hard on the connection, on my own swing and my students'. Starting from the MOVE AWAY (I love that term), avoiding the hands pulling inside the club, to a backswing position with models like Francesco Molinari or Jordan Spieth (my students find easy to swing it back with repetitiveness keeping the left arm almost bended).

Anyway I didn't know anything about Jim Waldron's theory, but a couple of videos and his very sharp answers enlightned me. At first glance it looks exactly what I was looking for: an easy and consistent way to keep body and arms in sync. I'm pretty sure that most of swing issues come from a misleading use of the arms, expecially at the very beginning of the action.
My father, who's also my lifetime teacher and mentor, always used to say "do not think about lifting the arms, just bend the right arm and the left arm will rise by itself" but never focused on the move away action. The way Jim teaches how to swing the club back appear to me as really far from commercial purposes: innovative but not too cerebral, easily understandable and repeatable.

So I'd like to thank Kiwi for bringing to my attention mr. Waldron's work, which I'm gonna follow with huge attention from now on, in order to get deeper into his philosophy, and maybe have the chance to work with him someday in the future.
[/quote]

Thanks! Glad you are founding my concepts useful in your teaching.

Your father was correct - if you pushaway and pivot, the momentum from those two moves will cause your right elbow to fold (even though you are resisting that bending with tricep extensor action) and that folding will lift the left arm a little to the Top. That way you can maintain your width of arms to the Top and keep your Triangle intact.

Most golfers actively bend the right elbow with biceps flexion, which causes arm structure to collapse near the Top, and a warped Triangle.

The goal is to reduce the golf swing to only the minimum necessary number of moving parts - and not actively lifting the arms is a huge key to that simpler motion.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Trane5' timestamp='1440381784' post='12196502']
Hi Jim, so I performed the Jug McSpadden drill this evening at the range, and WOW!!! I posted my feedback in the topic thread below. But I want to get some of your info and start to learn it.....what would you recommend 1st? (E book that I saw on your Facebook group, or the arm swing illusion module or the first module.) I'm a 7.6 looking to continue to drop my handicap. I play 2-3 times each week and practice about 3-4 times per week. Appreciate your feed back! For what it's worth....I was telling my buddies and the assistant club pro about you and your stuff this evening! Good stuff! Thanks
[/quote]

Glad you are liking the concepts and are seeing some results.

Best to buy both the e-book and the ASI vide. The e-book is very comprehensive, about 99% of everything I know about the golf swing, including the ASI stuff.

The ASI video is designed to enable the viewer to really breakthrough the spell of the illusion, so that he or she can start to see some immediate improvement in how their body and club are moving in 3D space.

[Trane5]

Thanks for the quick reply Jim! So, if I need to start out with just one right now because of budget constraints, would it be better to get the ASI video module or the ebook first?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Trane5' timestamp='1440462968' post='12202156']
Thanks for the quick reply Jim! So, if I need to start out with just one right now because of budget constraints, would it be better to get the ASI video module or the ebook first?
[/quote]

That's an easy one. If you think the main issue in your swing in the short term is the Illusion, then get the video.

If you are looking to invest some money for the long term, in a product that "covers all the bases" of how to master the craft of ballstriking, then buy the e-book.

[Trane5]

Great, thanks Jim! Last question.....does either one talk about shorter shots like pitches and chips? Planning on starting to read or watch video tonight!

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Trane5' timestamp='1440464563' post='12202370']
Great, thanks Jim! Last question.....does either one talk about shorter shots like pitches and chips? Planning on starting to read or watch video tonight!
[/quote]

No, we have a separate manual for Short Game, which is on my to do list for this Fall, to re-write/update and turn into an e-book.

[Trane5]

Jim, trying to purchase the e-book. For some reason, I can't change off the PayPal option to credit card. Any ideas? I'm using my laptop with Firefox for browser. Thanks

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Trane5' timestamp='1440469898' post='12202946']
Jim, trying to purchase the e-book. For some reason, I can't change off the PayPal option to credit card. Any ideas? I'm using my laptop with Firefox for browser. Thanks
[/quote]

Probably best to try the order again. If that fails, PM me with details.

[jgood112]

Is everything in module 1 in module 2?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='jgood112' timestamp='1440512339' post='12205018']
Is everything in module 1 in module 2?
[/quote]

No - each Module is a unique set of information. Module one has 4 videos, and total viewing time is around 7.5 hours. Module One is the foundation - swing theory and mechanics, grip, aim, baseline balance, impact, finish, setup, six laws of club motion, swing plane, etc. Module Two is only devoted to the Arm Swing Illusion. Module Three is more technical information on the arm mechanics and more info on the hands role in the golf swing, including clubface angle awareness via hand awareness and some related topics. Module Four is everything you need to know about the Pivot, including rotation, side bend or tilts, spine angle, steady head and swing center, weight transfer, pivot thrust, power, etc.

[rteach1]

Jim,

I was able to download the two videos without a problem. Still prefer DVD, but...

A question about Law 4, Clubface Angle Control: I recall that you teach a passive release to most of your students. However, in this part of the video, you talk about deliberate forearm rotation coming into release, which seems to be a more active release. Have you changed your views on the best release to teach typical amateurs? Will a more automated/passive release be demonstrated in future modules?

If you prefer that I ask questions about your videos in a PM, please let me know.

Finally, you have previously mentioned that a discount would be provided for those purchasing multiple modules. Has this been worked out yet?

Thanks very much.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='rteach1' timestamp='1440518705' post='12205764']
Jim,

I was able to download the two videos without a problem. Still prefer DVD, but...

A question about Law 4, Clubface Angle Control: I recall that you teach a passive release to most of your students. However, in this part of the video, you talk about deliberate forearm rotation coming into release, which seems to be a more active release. Have you changed your views on the best release to teach typical amateurs? Will a more automated/passive release be demonstrated in future modules?

If you prefer that I ask questions about your videos in a PM, please let me know.

Finally, you have previously mentioned that a discount would be provided for those purchasing multiple modules. Has this been worked out yet?

Thanks very much.
[/quote]

[size=4]You are referring to an exaggerated intention drill, for folks who block their release, ie tighten up and reverse roll the forearms or at least stop them from rolling counter-clockwise. I get that question a lot, and about many areas of the swing. The model is what it is - a large set of information about the Ideal, and from an objective viewpoint, ie as an objective description of what the best ballstrikers on tour who are using the Leveraged Spin Swing Style (95% of them) are actually doing with their body and club motion.

Exaggeration drills, slow motion drills, training aids, etc are the "means whereby" you are training your subconscious mind and your body to match the model, or a portion of the model.

If your grip and grip pressure are correct, and your pivot and wrist mechanics are correct, your Release will happen passively. So no - I have not changed my view on the passive Release. It's just that many mid to high handicap golfers do in fact have so much tension in the wrists and forearms that they are unable to learn the model Release without first doing that "4 arm roll release" drill and the hit a hook, hit a slice drill.

We are still working out the discount for multiple purchases, although it wont be for buying just two, but several.[/size]

[rteach1]

Got it, Jim. Thanks. The first module is excellent. Waiting until I have the house to myself for several hours to watch the ASI video, so that i can really concentrate on it.

Didn't think that two purchases would qualify. Just looking down the road. Can you update us on how the production schedule is going?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='rteach1' timestamp='1440521352' post='12206014']
Got it, Jim. Thanks. The first module is excellent. Waiting until I have the house to myself for several hours to watch the ASI video, so that i can really concentrate on it.

Didn't think that two purchases would qualify. Just looking down the road. Can you update us on how the production schedule is going?
[/quote]

Glad you are finding it helpful.

Module One Part B needed some last minute editing, should be up by end of this week. And Parts C and D by end of next week.

Module 3 taping is almost done, so that one likely around mid-September or a bit later.

If the weather holds here in Oregon, we should have all of the taping done by mid-October for the entire Great Shot! video series.

Our goal is to have the whole project completed by mid-December at latest.

[GungHoGolf]

Jim, I just wanted to thank you for sharing your Arm Swing Illusion philosophy here, and for being such a gracious and active participant in the discussion. I just found it yesterday, read almost every page in this monster thread, watched all of your YouTube videos, and took it to the range this morning.

After 25 years of having a severely inside takeaway in futile attempts to eliminate my outside-in divots and pulls/slices, I feel like I finally know what the cure will be and that I'm on the right (metaphorical) path now.

After just an hour of working on your ASI takeaway and trying to keep my arms more passive, I made dramatic improvements. Still coming a bit OTT and releasing the lag early, though - I think my arms and wrists have too much history to give up so easily.

I posted a video on a new thread here, I'd appreciate your comments on whether I got the takeaway right and what I might work on next to eliminate the remaining OTT and early release:

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1229378-after-25-years-of-an-inside-takeaway-and-severe-ott-move-heres-my-swing-after-1-hour-of-jim-waldrons-arm-swing-illusion-work-whats-next/"]http://www.golfwrx.c...ork-whats-next/[/url]

Thanks again, and I hope to make it to Portland soon for some f2f time with you.

-Ron

[jimjc]

I'm glad to see people embracing this idea of "the arm swing illusion" because it's correct but not something that's new....I learned how the arms moved 50+ years ago with the exact movements...

There is another isolation movement that works also....bring you hands up just as this movement teaches..when your hands stop at the top relax your wrist and the shaft will be resting on your right shoulder ...now just turn your shoulders and push your arms away and you will find your own top of the swing.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='DeadStick' timestamp='1440528608' post='12206750']
Jim, I just wanted to thank you for sharing your Arm Swing Illusion philosophy here, and for being such a gracious and active participant in the discussion. I just found it yesterday, read almost every page in this monster thread, watched all of your YouTube videos, and took it to the range this morning.

After 25 years of having a severely inside takeaway in futile attempts to eliminate my outside-in divots and pulls/slices, I feel like I finally know what the cure will be and that I'm on the right (metaphorical) path now.

After just an hour of working on your ASI takeaway and trying to keep my arms more passive, I made dramatic improvements. Still coming a bit OTT and releasing the lag early, though - I think my arms and wrists have too much history to give up so easily.

I posted a video on a new thread here, I'd appreciate your comments on whether I got the takeaway right and what I might work on next to eliminate the remaining OTT and early release:

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1229378-after-25-years-of-an-inside-takeaway-and-severe-ott-move-heres-my-swing-after-1-hour-of-jim-waldrons-arm-swing-illusion-work-whats-next/"]http://www.golfwrx.c...ork-whats-next/[/url]

Thanks again, and I hope to make it to Portland soon for some f2f time with you.

-Ron
[/quote]

Hi Ron - glad to hear the concept has helped you so much. Looks like your takeaway is actually a little outside, so it has certainly cured your formerly way inside move!

Just a slight correction, I dont teach "passive arms" on the takeaway, that is more of a forward swing term. You want an active arm pushaway on the backswing, independent of your Pivot. The term "passive arms" on the forward swing has a specific definition, in my use of that term. it means NOT using your upper arm muscles to actively move the arms in any direction, and especially so in the horizontal dimension. Doing that effectively has a few pre-requisites: a structured Triangle with proper arm pressures, starting from a good Top position, ie on the proper plane with left arm and shaft and in front of the right side of the chest, ie not "stuck", a proper Transition sequence and speed (too fast will leave your arms behind and too slow will tend to make your arms move toward mid-line too much), and arriving in a good P6 position. From there until just after impact is where "passive arms" is key, ie SuperConnected arms, or arms moving at same rpm speed as the shoulder girdle, in sync, with some contact of the triceps to the pecs.

"Passive arms" most certainly does NOT mean arms that lag the body too much or slow moving arms. Far from it!

You want arms that are moving as fast as possible, but from energy supplied from the uncoiling/tilting shoulder girdle, NOT the arms moving themselves independently of the Pivot.

I do Remote Lessons live via Skype webcam, you can PM me for more details on how to deal with your armsy forward swing, OTT and early release issues.

[JIM STEWART]

been fighting an over swing, arm run off, flying right elbow for a while........the idea of the arms work up and the turn puts you in an ideal back swing has clicked, no more flying elbow or arm run off.
Thank you Mr. Waldron

also, this should help in transition of a small OTT move and steep downswing, correct?

[trustyrusty]

Jim,

im currently sifting through from the beginning of the thread so apologies if this has been discussed. When performing the backswing I feel like I can get to the top in a good position and have hit balls where I definitely feel so much more room on the downswing. However, I was hitting the ball very high and to the right. Im so used to trying to swing out and to the left or to right field that I feel like I am coming across the ball and 'wiping' a bit. I also feel this when I am performing the wood chop drill. When I am thumping the ground it feels like i am coming across the target line from out to in and the clubface is open. Do you have any suggestions for this feeling? I am going to video some swings tonight and set up a remote lesson with you as well but wanted to get a jump start on some slow motion movements today before I hit the range. Thanks for your investment on the boards.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='JIM STEWART' timestamp='1440737442' post='12222566']
been fighting an over swing, arm run off, flying right elbow for a while........the idea of the arms work up and the turn puts you in an ideal back swing has clicked, no more flying elbow or arm run off.
Thank you Mr. Waldron

also, this should help in transition of a small OTT move and steep downswing, correct?
[/quote]

Your welcome! Yes on the OTT help, due to not being stuck in the first place at the Top. One very common cause of OTT is that you throw the arms out in front of you, to create space, from your stuck position at the Top. But that creates a steep shaft plane angle, often a spin out of the shoulder girdle with little or no rightward tilt, and an early release of wrist c0ck angles.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='trustyrusty' timestamp='1440774542' post='12224106']
Jim,

im currently sifting through from the beginning of the thread so apologies if this has been discussed. When performing the backswing I feel like I can get to the top in a good position and have hit balls where I definitely feel so much more room on the downswing. However, I was hitting the ball very high and to the right. Im so used to trying to swing out and to the left or to right field that I feel like I am coming across the ball and 'wiping' a bit. I also feel this when I am performing the wood chop drill. When I am thumping the ground it feels like i am coming across the target line from out to in and the clubface is open. Do you have any suggestions for this feeling? I am going to video some swings tonight and set up a remote lesson with you as well but wanted to get a jump start on some slow motion movements today before I hit the range. Thanks for your investment on the boards.
[/quote]

It is all about the blending of the levers - upper arms, wrist c0ck, and right arm angle - moving mainly down and out in front of the chest, with the Pivot. Very easy when first learning this 3D golf swing motion, to move from one extreme to the other. When you get the blend of pivot and lever motion correct, the shaft moves on plane during release and through impact in to followthrough. Good angle of attack/low point and path are the inevitable outcomes.

[flopshot99]

Jim has given enormous amt of info on these forums...how about people buy his vids. I have bought the 2 vids already and informed him to.not give out all this info for free...time to pay up members.