The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy

[vandyfan]

Also, while on the subject, I am pretty excited about this revelation if you can't tell. I had to get on Trackman today and see if what I saw out on the course this past Sunday was truly as big a launch/spin change as it seemed. It was...

 

Old/flat/ugly swing:

 

 

New arm swing illusion backswing added in:

 

 

Pretty much everything is better. I can swing faster without even thinking about it, spin is getting right where I want it for a 34* 7 iron. Land angle is well up over 45*, height is up 10 feet, and carry is still pretty much in the same spot. Also, I am a lot more neutral on my path than I was when I was almost 6 degrees in to out. Hard to ignore these changes. 

 

I went out on the range to see full ball flight and same thing. High, stable ball flight. Just beautiful. Made me want to quit my job and abandon my family and just hit balls for the rest of my days. 

[Tanner25]

Here's another illusion as it relates to hip tilt and being on plane. As a person who struggles with a good backswing turn, I like the feeling of pushing into the lead foot and ground to get the trail side (knees, hips) higher in the backswing. It feels powerful and easier to turn. Thoughts?

 

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by Tanner25

[Jim Waldron]

On 12/5/2023 at 11:53 AM, Tanner25 said:

 

What's your downswing thought with ASI? It seems to be less discussed compared to the backswing. There's an AMG video floating around here recently about, dropping the arms first in the downswing and then pivot/shift - that maybe applicable.

 

 

I agree the downswing aspect of the ASI discovery is seldom talked about, but in many ways is more radical, mind-blowing and important than the backswing aspect.

 

There is a subset of the ASI  I call the Wrist Illusion (or ASI for how the wrists work in the swing), which is that from the standpoint of the wrists at P6, the un-cocking happens literally in the vertical dimension downwards, but that when you add in the Pivot and forearm roll during Release, those two things shallow the angle of attack, or you would hit the ground three feet behind the ball, ie super fat.

 

The other is "super-connector", a Hogan discovery, which is that the upper arms do not move laterally in the shoulder sockets from P6 till just after impact. (There a few tour pros who do actively swing their arms from the sockets, so yes you can certainly do it that way, but I do not recommend it.)

 

Inertia acts on the upper arms from Pivot rotation and trail side tilting/bend, along with clubhead moving away from the body when the wrist c0ck angles open up. No lateral movement during Release of the arms in the sockets means much more control over the club: path, angle of attack and low point especially are much more predictable and precise.

 

Having said that, the impulse to use the upper arms laterally as a power source is incredibly strong for most golfers, ie a form of the Hit Impulse. It takes a fair amount of practice for most to learn how to inhibit that impulse.

[Carlito]

9 hours ago, Jim Waldron said:

The other is "super-connector", a Hogan discovery, which is that the upper arms do not move laterally in the shoulder sockets from P6 till just after impact.

Thank you, nobody talks about the upper arm rotation in combination with the pivot for stabilizing the club face.

[Nard_S]

A key that I've had success with is upper arms move down fast and re-connect to torso but also their rotation is freed up. Lead arm supinating earlier has helped an awful lot especially with longer clubs. It's a very simple intent to apply. Found a lot more fairways with it.

[KD1]

On 12/5/2023 at 3:53 PM, Tanner25 said:

There's an AMG video floating around

Check these out (linked to specific times in vids)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfvVnWwhQFc?si=1QkBOFUM2VWDwyxu&t=933
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v700yk6jeaA?si=1C-rcWYZ_4Oqngim&t=313

Edited December 8, 2023 by KD1

[Jim Waldron]

Yes, AMG guys are correct - hands on trail side means same thing as "super - connection "  The Pivot moves the hands forward from P6 to P9, and the hands do not cross mid-line of torso till around p8.5ish.  This is the true meaning of "passive arms" - arms are moving fast through impact, but ONLY from the Pivot, NOT independent arm motion ie arms moving themselves from upper arm muscle activation.

 

In my experience, this is THE most mind-blowing aspect of the ASI.

[skim4]

Working on set up and sequencing. Came across this. 7 iron chs went from 85 to 92 on the first swing with the intent of up and down instead of around with my arms. It also helped with my back extension ( atleast on 2d video). Body movements look improved with this intent. 

[Tanner25]

AMG guys have a video about ASI. Rather than doing the push out at 45 degrees, it clicks with me better with the right arm bending towards the trail shoulder on the backswing. Probably the same, just a different thought/focus.

 

At 12:41 there's a shout out to @jimwaldron

 

 

Edited February 13 by Tanner25

[Shilgy]

On 12/8/2023 at 10:17 PM, Jim Waldron said:

Yes, AMG guys are correct - hands on trail side means same thing as "super - connection "  The Pivot moves the hands forward from P6 to P9, and the hands do not cross mid-line of torso till around p8.5ish.  This is the true meaning of "passive arms" - arms are moving fast through impact, but ONLY from the Pivot, NOT independent arm motion ie arms moving themselves from upper arm muscle activation.

 

In my experience, this is THE most mind-blowing aspect of the ASI.

Can you elaborate? I don’t understand how you would get your arms in front of you and not be behind your trail leg if the arms were just being carried by the pivot….as in truly passive.

[iacas]

6 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Can you elaborate? I don’t understand how you would get your arms in front of you and not be behind your trail leg if the arms were just being carried by the pivot….as in truly passive.

 

Jim's post was from early December, so I don't know that he'll reply… but yeah, the arms aren't passive during the downswing, even if their only "activity" was to not let the arms trail WAY behind the pivot. Truly passive arms would be lagging way behind.

[betarhoalphadelta]

9 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Can you elaborate? I don’t understand how you would get your arms in front of you and not be behind your trail leg if the arms were just being carried by the pivot….as in truly passive.

 

Yeah as iacas mentions could be a while before Jim logs back in... 

 

A big part of the ASI as I understand it is that most ams think of the arms as working "across" the body both in the backswing and the downswing, which is not really correct.

 

On the backswing the arms are moving from mostly center to slightly right of center, and "up" from their initial position. I.e. the lateral movement of your hands are from basically body centerline to even with the right shoulder, and vertically up. If you try it--take your address position, c0ck the wrists, lift your hands 6-12" (depending on your body), and move the hands slightly to the right in line with your right shoulder (which bends the right arm but shouldn't be more than 90*). Now pivot to your backswing position w/o moving your arms. If you look at that on video, you should be in an almost perfectly textbook "at the top" position". Visibly it might *look* like the left arm is pinned across your chest, but that's a visual illusion because you KNOW you pivoted without pinning it. The people who actually ARE pinning that left arm have way more than 90* bend in the right elbow.

 

Then on the downswing, your arms move back down vertically but they don't move across the body much. This is similar to the AMG video where they talk about impact being a trail side thing--your arms/hands are still on your trail side but they appear to be ahead of center in a face-on view because of the pivot. Again, a visual illusion. You're actually not trying to get your arms "in front" of you. They may be closer to the centerline than they were at the top, but they shouldn't have returned to centerline. 

 

Again, that's my understanding... If I'm incorrect I'm sure someone will point that out lol...

[Djmc25]

1 hour ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Yeah as iacas mentions could be a while before Jim logs back in... 

 

A big part of the ASI as I understand it is that most ams think of the arms as working "across" the body both in the backswing and the downswing, which is not really correct.

 

On the backswing the arms are moving from mostly center to slightly right of center, and "up" from their initial position. I.e. the lateral movement of your hands are from basically body centerline to even with the right shoulder, and vertically up. If you try it--take your address position, c0ck the wrists, lift your hands 6-12" (depending on your body), and move the hands slightly to the right in line with your right shoulder (which bends the right arm but shouldn't be more than 90*). Now pivot to your backswing position w/o moving your arms. If you look at that on video, you should be in an almost perfectly textbook "at the top" position". Visibly it might *look* like the left arm is pinned across your chest, but that's a visual illusion because you KNOW you pivoted without pinning it. The people who actually ARE pinning that left arm have way more than 90* bend in the right elbow.

 

Then on the downswing, your arms move back down vertically but they don't move across the body much. This is similar to the AMG video where they talk about impact being a trail side thing--your arms/hands are still on your trail side but they appear to be ahead of center in a face-on view because of the pivot. Again, a visual illusion. You're actually not trying to get your arms "in front" of you. They may be closer to the centerline than they were at the top, but they shouldn't have returned to centerline. 

 

Again, that's my understanding... If I'm incorrect I'm sure someone will point that out lol...

I think you’re a Monte guy. Cast A is the arms down portion, pivot then takes that unit out to Cast B. 
 

trouble arises when you get it out of order, or try to use the arms instead of the pivot for the back and then through portion. 
 

That’s the best way I’ve understood the golf swing. Not dissimilar to Pete Cowens theories on the Spiral Staircase arms just work up as the body coils. Then you spin the arms down. 

[Jeselnik]

 IMO, these illustrations are the most helpful way to communicate these ideas to novices.   

 

 

 

JNIK

[Jim Waldron]

On 2/14/2024 at 4:30 AM, Shilgy said:

Can you elaborate? I don’t understand how you would get your arms in front of you and not be behind your trail leg if the arms were just being carried by the pivot….as in truly passive.

 

Then I guess we have totally different definitions of the word "passive"....not uncommon in golf instruction debates.

 

I can only tell you what I mean by the term. It starts with the premise that for a lot of amateurs, mainly mid to high caps especially, their golf swings are dominated by excessive upper arms to shoulder joint movement, with an under-activated and improper Pivot. Both back swing and forward swing.

 

It means on the forward swing, to not actively swing your arms across torso mid-line with your arm muscles, ie during the Release segment. As AMG described in their video and as Hogan instructed a few of his tour pro students.  

 

It does NOT mean zero independent arm motion during Transition. You do need some amount of upper arms moving down, out and forward  in the shoulder sockets to strike a golf ball well during transition segment of the golf swing. How much depends on how flexible your body is and how strong your Core is - weak inflexible golfers will need more independent arm motion to achieve a neutral clubhead path compared to stronger more flexible golfers. The stronger golfers can be more open to the target line with hips and chest, so the their lead arm to shoulder girdle will be narrower, ie hands further away from torso midl-line, Hogan being the extreme example.

 

The primary reason why so many golfers have too much active arm muscle patterns is the arm swing illusion itself, because the eyes/mind under the influence of the illusion, whilst looking at pro golfers, forms a belief  that what is really mostly pivot-dependent arm motion in 3D space looks like independent arm motion (and the mind of the golfer sees that mainly in 2D). So that golfer's brain forms a Swing Map based on the ASI and other related illusions, causing not only too much independent arm motion, but the wrong motion, ie motion that creates poor club motion in multiple ways. 

 

If you can drop all or nothing binary thinking that dominates discussions in this and other golf forums, you may be able to grasp what I am saying here. Meaning I am advocating for a blend of upper arms moving in the shoulder sockets to get the arms to move in synch with the pivot, NOT how most debates on this issue are framed as "its arms do nothing but stay up there and pivot moves them down" vs "swing your arms down and out forward to keep pace with the pivot".

 

t's a blend of pivot moving the arms directly and arms themselves being moved in the sockets from forces originating from the pivot, and the weight of the arms causing them to fall down with an assist from gravity, although that last part is a tiny portion of the forces. Most of what moves the arms in the forward swing is because of forces acting on the arms, in the shoulder socket, from the pivot.

 

You do not need to use the arm muscles themselves to pull the arms down, UNLESS you are "stuck" at the Top. Then the answer is to NOT be stuck at the Top in the first place. No need to "move the arms back out in front" if you are in the proper Top of backswing slot in the first place. 

 

Pivot momentum with a tiny assist from gravity will cause the arms to drop down and out and forward in the shoulder sockets, UNLESS you have too much tension in that joint, which is very common for most ams. 

 

 

[Jim Waldron]

On 2/14/2024 at 2:18 PM, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Yeah as iacas mentions could be a while before Jim logs back in... 

 

A big part of the ASI as I understand it is that most ams think of the arms as working "across" the body both in the backswing and the downswing, which is not really correct.

 

On the backswing the arms are moving from mostly center to slightly right of center, and "up" from their initial position. I.e. the lateral movement of your hands are from basically body centerline to even with the right shoulder, and vertically up. If you try it--take your address position, c0ck the wrists, lift your hands 6-12" (depending on your body), and move the hands slightly to the right in line with your right shoulder (which bends the right arm but shouldn't be more than 90*). Now pivot to your backswing position w/o moving your arms. If you look at that on video, you should be in an almost perfectly textbook "at the top" position". Visibly it might *look* like the left arm is pinned across your chest, but that's a visual illusion because you KNOW you pivoted without pinning it. The people who actually ARE pinning that left arm have way more than 90* bend in the right elbow.

 

Then on the downswing, your arms move back down vertically but they don't move across the body much. This is similar to the AMG video where they talk about impact being a trail side thing--your arms/hands are still on your trail side but they appear to be ahead of center in a face-on view because of the pivot. Again, a visual illusion. You're actually not trying to get your arms "in front" of you. They may be closer to the centerline than they were at the top, but they shouldn't have returned to centerline. 

 

Again, that's my understanding... If I'm incorrect I'm sure someone will point that out lol...

Yes - 100% accurate explanation, very well stated.