The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy

[Galanga]

Yes, Jim mentions it in the e-book.

 

I think my existing swing was hard hip thrust to start downswing, blackout at the same time I hammered my arms / hands / wrists at the ball and my pivot stalled. About halfway down i went all-out and mind went blank w "Hit Ball!" Impulse.

 

Working on it.

[Jim Waldron]

I concur - ASI is a light bulb turning on for sure. But, now I have to figure out what I see now that the light bulb is on.

 

Really enjoying your Great Shot e-book and learning a ton.

 

I am familiar with the left tilt in back swing and right tilt in down swing. I had been reading Kelvin Miyahira's articles and he speaks of this. Left tilt in back swing is a little harder for me than right tilt in downswing - tend to get a little reverse in my pivot.

 

Question: You speak of the left tilt in back swing. You also say, "You must arrive at the Top of Backswing with the exact same amount of rightward tilt that you had at Setup - no more and no less." For example, 10 degrees right tilt with driver. I am confused how you get left tilt in back swing but also maintain right tilt all the way to Top. Can sort this out for me?

 

Thank you.

 

Sorry for not being around much lately to respond more timely to these questions and comments, but been travelling and then when I did get home, had computer issues for a few days.

 

This question was answered pretty well by other members in the posts that follow this one, but I would just add that this is one of the most commonly asked questions in our Great Shot! golf swing school. The main issue is the effect of torso tilt toward the rear side of the body, from caddie view point and how that Top of backswing torso angle influences angle of attack and low point. The basic idea is that the more right tilt you have, the more likely your angle of attack will be shallow, and less right tilt, or even tilting leftwards at the top, tends to create a steep angle of attack. Since angle of attack and low point varies radically from wedge to driver, through the bag, you need to make a Setup adjustment to make it more likely that the club itself will automatically have a proper angle of attack. Steeper angles for wedges, shallower angles for woods. Much easier to set up with one of the four Spine Tilts - 0,5,10 or 15 degrees - and then let that automatically create the desired angle/low point.

 

Where this gets tough to understand is when you add the side bend or Tilt and how that influences the forward bend or Spine Angle. All caused by the Tilt Illusion - which is as or nearly as powerful as the arm swing illusion. Most golfers brains are victims of it and there have been plenty of flaming debates on this forum about it. "Left tilt" in the backswing DOES NOT MEAN LEFT FROM CADDIE VIEW! It means that your torso is bending to the left side of itself, just like doing side bends in exercise class, and that this happening AT THE SAME TIME AS THE TORSO, CORE AND HIP ROTATION - AND - AT THE SAME TIME AS YOUR TORSO LIFTING UP OUT OF ITS BEND FORWARD FROM THE HIP SOCKETS.

 

This is a radical concept in golf instruction and one that until very recently only a handful of instructors knew about. The reason why is simple - we "think" visually in two dimensions, and when we look at a tv or computer screen or photos, we are also in 2D mode. Even in 3D real world, in normal consciousness our mind kind of gets lazy and tends to dull the third dimension aspect of what we are seeing, unless for some reason you are really engaged and more focused than normal.

[Jim Waldron]

I concur - ASI is a light bulb turning on for sure. But, now I have to figure out what I see now that the light bulb is on.

 

Really enjoying your Great Shot e-book and learning a ton.

 

I am familiar with the left tilt in back swing and right tilt in down swing. I had been reading Kelvin Miyahira's articles and he speaks of this. Left tilt in back swing is a little harder for me than right tilt in downswing - tend to get a little reverse in my pivot.

 

Question: You speak of the left tilt in back swing. You also say, "You must arrive at the Top of Backswing with the exact same amount of rightward tilt that you had at Setup - no more and no less." For example, 10 degrees right tilt with driver. I am confused how you get left tilt in back swing but also maintain right tilt all the way to Top. Can sort this out for me?

 

Thank you.

 

Yeah, 'tuna is correct. Mirror work, Galanga. Look at your setup, face - on. Rightward spine tilt *at setup* 5 degrees for a 7 iron, for example. In your full backswing, your upper body should be retaining that 5 degree rightward lean. Your chest will *not* be pointing backward downline, or at the sky. It will be pointing 5 degrees *downward* at full backswing position. Very common mistake when learning this. Very weird feeling, too, when you're doing 15 degrees with a driver.

 

Meanwhile. Back to the mirror. Face it standing up. Tllt your upper spine (not the lower lumbar!) to the left. That leftward tilt, when you've moved into a backswing, is how you "retain" the 30-35 degree bent-at-the-hips 'spine angle' you have when addressing the ball.

 

x axis

+ y axis

 

So. The left tilt pertains to 'retaining' the Forward Spine Angle at address, on the X axis. The rightward SETUP tilt pertains to your spine on the Y axis. You MUST retain the correct rightward setup tilt into your backswing for the type of club your playing or wacky swingpath problems ensue, followed quickly by hideous contortions trying to save a lost cause.

 

One of the more hilarious fails in golf is hitting a great drive (with 15 degrees of setup tilt) and then walking up the ball for your wedge into the green -- and setting up with rightward tilt again, when a wedge shot setup is ZERO tilt. Fat city, or goat hump it for a skully. Niiiiiiice.

 

LOTS of mirror work getting used to this, Galanga. Jim recc's marking or taping the angles on the mirror so you can See It while you learn to Feel It.

 

Thanks for a really excellent explanation!

[Jim Waldron]

I concur - ASI is a light bulb turning on for sure. But, now I have to figure out what I see now that the light bulb is on.

 

Really enjoying your Great Shot e-book and learning a ton.

 

I am familiar with the left tilt in back swing and right tilt in down swing. I had been reading Kelvin Miyahira's articles and he speaks of this. Left tilt in back swing is a little harder for me than right tilt in downswing - tend to get a little reverse in my pivot.

 

Question: You speak of the left tilt in back swing. You also say, "You must arrive at the Top of Backswing with the exact same amount of rightward tilt that you had at Setup - no more and no less." For example, 10 degrees right tilt with driver. I am confused how you get left tilt in back swing but also maintain right tilt all the way to Top. Can sort this out for me?

 

Thank you.

 

Yeah, 'tuna is correct. Mirror work, Galanga. Look at your setup, face - on. Rightward spine tilt *at setup* 5 degrees for a 7 iron, for example. In your full backswing, your upper body should be retaining that 5 degree rightward lean. Your chest will *not* be pointing backward downline, or at the sky. It will be pointing 5 degrees *downward* at full backswing position. Very common mistake when learning this. Very weird feeling, too, when you're doing 15 degrees with a driver.

 

Meanwhile. Back to the mirror. Face it standing up. Tllt your upper spine (not the lower lumbar!) to the left. That leftward tilt, when you've moved into a backswing, is how you "retain" the 30-35 degree bent-at-the-hips 'spine angle' you have when addressing the ball.

 

x axis

+ y axis

 

So. The left tilt pertains to 'retaining' the Forward Spine Angle at address, on the X axis. The rightward SETUP tilt pertains to your spine on the Y axis. You MUST retain the correct rightward setup tilt into your backswing for the type of club your playing or wacky swingpath problems ensue, followed quickly by hideous contortions trying to save a lost cause.

 

One of the more hilarious fails in golf is hitting a great drive (with 15 degrees of setup tilt) and then walking up the ball for your wedge into the green -- and setting up with rightward tilt again, when a wedge shot setup is ZERO tilt. Fat city, or goat hump it for a skully. Niiiiiiice.

 

LOTS of mirror work getting used to this, Galanga. Jim recc's marking or taping the angles on the mirror so you can See It while you learn to Feel It.

 

Mc3jack, very helpful explanation!

 

The tilting of your left shoulder down on the backswing retains your forward spine angle at setup.

 

The aiming of your chest below horizontal in the backswing retains your secondary tilt at setup.

 

I have a tendency to not tilt my left shoulder down enough in the backswing lately (too flat shoulder turn) which by definition, means I am raising out of my forward spine angle on the backswing. May be why I've been having some inconsistent wedges.

 

Another excellent explanation! At the Top, your "new" right tilt of the Torso - again always from caddie viewpoint (not 'reality') - is, to use driver for example, 15 degrees of tilt of the torso toward the "right" direction, but from the bodys first person point of view, it is bending slightly forward from the hip sockets to achieve that 15 degree angle. Your Setup forward bend from the hips with driver was about 25-27 degrees, so you "stand up" by about 12 degrees, while tilting leftward about 25 degrees past the vertical with mid-line (15 degrees of rightward tilt is lost back to a straight midline, then 25 left tilt is added) , so that in effect your leftward torso side tilt has now replaced your Setup's from the hip socket forward tilt

 

Basically you are adding a total leftward tilt - starting from either no right tilt at all (wedges) to up to 15 degrees rightward at Setup - of around 40 degrees, no matter what the club, during the backswing, so that the reart side tilt (if any) you had at Setup is maintained to the Top, and that the forward tilt you had at Setup, is also maintained to the top.

[Jim Waldron]

Discovered another outcome of the ASI if you still have it in the deep brain (I do, but, working to ferret it out). Yanking on the left shoulder up in an effort to pull the left arm forward across the chest early in the down swing. I think my subconscious was trying to get the arms forward (side-to-side) and I was thinking this was shoulder rotation. Did a bit better by considering rotating the core and shoulder girdle without the yank - kind of like turning the shoulder girdle with muscles lower (i.e., closer to the ground) in the core. I have all the ASI and MPH illusion symptoms - Arm pull to left, left shoulder yank, right arm/elbow push and hand throw to left. I definitely get the concept now, but, training the subconscious is another kettle of fish. Was able to hit some good shots at half speed just thinking "no speed". My mind equates speed with arm/wrist/hand throw. Got a lot more rows to hoe.

 

Excellent analysis! There is indeed a "yank" on the left arm as you say - but you can do that either with the arm muscles acting alone (fatal flaw!) and usually alongside a massive pivot stall or you can create a pulling force on the arm just as you said: with connection, "cohesive tension", the connection of the body to the ground, from the feet up through the legs to the core to the shoulder girdle and finally to the lead arm.

 

 

I cover the latter part of this move in depth in my new Module 3 Video on Advanced Arm Mechanics, which will hope to have released sometime later in the week.

[Jim Waldron]

Jim and MC3Jack have both spoken about that some (maybe most) of us see in 2-D. This is surprising to me because of course we see in 3-D. Come on.

 

But, I am beginning to understand that we do think in 2-D. Need to do some of that Zen practice of seeing in 3-D that Jim spoke of.

 

I always enjoy hearing the thots of players who have the 'light bulb' go off re: the arm swing illusion. The realization is just a doorway, though, not a Magic Secret. Now the real work starts, actual effective work that produces lasting results. I'm a year and a half into Waldronology and its been a blast.

 

If the arms and hands don't do much, the quality of the golf 'swing' comes from how well we Setup, stay in Balance, and Pivot. Early-ASI realization got me too interested in 'this new way I don't move my arms.' Because I was so focused on arm and hand movements in the past, I defaulted to the same thinking post-realization. Try to avoid this trap. Go to work on Setup, Balance, Transition and Pivot, because this is a Pivot-controlled and driven golf swing. Drill the heck out of Jim's arm/hand hinge pushway with special attention to Extensor Pressure . . . but focus hard on the body stuff. When golf sages said a great swing is built from the ground up, they weren't kidding.

 

I am new to ASI but now have the e-book and the ASI video. My arms need a lot of work but seeing the ASI for what it is has helped conceptually at least. I already was doing a form of Jim's power grip so that wasn't a big change. Using the pressure points of the pinkies has helped me monitor my hands - I realized I "blackout" (as Jim calls it) about at the midway point in downswing. Takes a lot of concentration for me to keep my mind in my hands at that point to the ball - my mind wants to blackout and arms and hips flash to impact.

 

I am acknowledging that my pivot is a mess. I don't get reconnected in the Get-set position in transition and my hips turn out from under my arms - my right elbow is behind my hip and actually there is a gap between my hip and my elbow. I think this comes from the desire to use the hips first and what I thought Hogan was saying in 5 Lessons - turn the left hip back as if it was being pulled back with a rubber strap. I think fixing that may be an even bigger challenge than my arms and hands because I don't seem to have as much awareness of the hip action.

 

I will being reading the pivot sections in the e-book, but, is there a Jim pivot video that you would recommend?

 

Yes, Module 4 is on Pivot Mechanics, we are working on the editing right now. Target release date will be around May 1. I will post the intro for that Module here soon, it has some great info on proper pivot components.

[Jim Waldron]

Jim and MC3Jack have both spoken about that some (maybe most) of us see in 2-D. This is surprising to me because of course we see in 3-D. Come on.

 

But, I am beginning to understand that we do think in 2-D. Need to do some of that Zen practice of seeing in 3-D that Jim spoke of.

 

I always enjoy hearing the thots of players who have the 'light bulb' go off re: the arm swing illusion. The realization is just a doorway, though, not a Magic Secret. Now the real work starts, actual effective work that produces lasting results. I'm a year and a half into Waldronology and its been a blast.

 

If the arms and hands don't do much, the quality of the golf 'swing' comes from how well we Setup, stay in Balance, and Pivot. Early-ASI realization got me too interested in 'this new way I don't move my arms.' Because I was so focused on arm and hand movements in the past, I defaulted to the same thinking post-realization. Try to avoid this trap. Go to work on Setup, Balance, Transition and Pivot, because this is a Pivot-controlled and driven golf swing. Drill the heck out of Jim's arm/hand hinge pushway with special attention to Extensor Pressure . . . but focus hard on the body stuff. When golf sages said a great swing is built from the ground up, they weren't kidding.

 

Some really good points there. Its always an interesting question that I deal with in teaching, when deciding to work on dynamic motion mechanics (as opposed to say aim, balance, setup, grip, tempo) do I start with training the arms and hands/wrists to behave, or do I start with the Pivot? No easy answers there, its often an intuitive call. Needless to say, a good pivot makes it much easier to train the arms and hands. But sometimes you need to start first with the arms and wrists and right elbow mechanics.

 

In general, with high handicaps, starting with arms, right elbow and wrists tends to create faster improvement, assuming that they have at least a somewhat functional pivot to start with. Mid handicaps its a toss up. The student at some point has to "buy in" to the possibility that they can learn how to deliver the sweetspot of that 100mph clubhead into the back of the ball with a spiral-shaped un-coiling pivot motion as the primary piece controlling the swing motion. And a lot of folks just cant get their head wrapped around that idea, it sounds crazy to them, since they are so bound up in using hand-eye manipulation and still having a lot of failure, they cant imagine a swing motion that is NOT based on hand-eye manipulation and the 'smaller muscles' circuits of the arms and hands.

[Jim Waldron]

Jim and MC3Jack have both spoken about that some (maybe most) of us see in 2-D. This is surprising to me because of course we see in 3-D. Come on.

 

But, I am beginning to understand that we do think in 2-D. Need to do some of that Zen practice of seeing in 3-D that Jim spoke of.

 

I always enjoy hearing the thots of players who have the 'light bulb' go off re: the arm swing illusion. The realization is just a doorway, though, not a Magic Secret. Now the real work starts, actual effective work that produces lasting results. I'm a year and a half into Waldronology and its been a blast.

 

If the arms and hands don't do much, the quality of the golf 'swing' comes from how well we Setup, stay in Balance, and Pivot. Early-ASI realization got me too interested in 'this new way I don't move my arms.' Because I was so focused on arm and hand movements in the past, I defaulted to the same thinking post-realization. Try to avoid this trap. Go to work on Setup, Balance, Transition and Pivot, because this is a Pivot-controlled and driven golf swing. Drill the heck out of Jim's arm/hand hinge pushway with special attention to Extensor Pressure . . . but focus hard on the body stuff. When golf sages said a great swing is built from the ground up, they weren't kidding.

 

I am new to ASI but now have the e-book and the ASI video. My arms need a lot of work but seeing the ASI for what it is has helped conceptually at least. I already was doing a form of Jim's power grip so that wasn't a big change. Using the pressure points of the pinkies has helped me monitor my hands - I realized I "blackout" (as Jim calls it) about at the midway point in downswing. Takes a lot of concentration for me to keep my mind in my hands at that point to the ball - my mind wants to blackout and arms and hips flash to impact.

 

I am acknowledging that my pivot is a mess. I don't get reconnected in the Get-set position in transition and my hips turn out from under my arms - my right elbow is behind my hip and actually there is a gap between my hip and my elbow. I think this comes from the desire to use the hips first and what I thought Hogan was saying in 5 Lessons - turn the left hip back as if it was being pulled back with a rubber strap. I think fixing that may be an even bigger challenge than my arms and hands because I don't seem to have as much awareness of the hip action.

 

I will being reading the pivot sections in the e-book, but, is there a Jim pivot video that you would recommend?

 

Great post! I am always amazed on how little discussion there is here on this forum about "blackout", flinching, and the Four Destructive Impulses": Hit, Steering, Scooping and Impact.

 

You need an awake/alert conscious mind in the swing - that never "blacks out" or even "wanders off" - but a mind that is 100% passive, meaning NOT trying to interfere with your golf swing, and I mean trying to "add yourself to your swing" to use Hogan's term. At normal swing speeds and especially with a ball, you need to ONLY focus your mind on just one thing, in the proper channel - either visual, kinesthetic or auditory - and keep that Focal Point all the way to your Finish. If you can do that, you wont flinch badly - or at all - and you want surrender to any of those Four Impulses.

[Jim Waldron]

Just did a range session just working on arm movements and mostly focusing on not throwing or pulling or pushing the club forward. Did as Jim recommended and closed my eyes and purposely throw the club head and sense the muscles that are doing the dirty work. Then, hit a ball and not use those muscles. As soon as you sense a hint of a throw, pull, push, then, go back to eyes closed and start again. Felt like I could get close with SW (really solid strikes and a later hit) but it was more difficult as clubs got longer - driver swing remained afflicted. I think my near-term focus is going to be ASI, the arm movements (e.g., Jug McSpaden drill) and just working on eliminating the throwing. I don't think I can ever improve my pivot, EE, etc. without first getting rid of the throwing motions. Bit of a chicken or egg thing, but, I think that is true. My rotation certainly improved with SW when I reduced or eliminated the throw. I think the folks that know the arm moves and the swinging without hitting feels believe it is easily understood, but, it is an exclusive club if those of us at the range tonight are a fair representation of the general golfing public - everyone was throwing the club and flipping. It almost seems that you won't know until you know. I am hopeful, with persistence, that I will continue to get glimpses, insights, and, slowly whittle away at the affliction. It seemed the more I sensed and continued efforting, the more I realized there probably isn't a joint or muscle in my body that isn't contributing to throwing, pulling and pushing. Journey of a thousand steps.

 

I agree 100% about your insight regarding most golfers on the range having the same issues: arm and wrist throw, etc. It just take time and practice to overcome those impulses and habits, but everyday golfers all over the planet are having those kinds of breakthroughs.

[Jim Waldron]

I realized I "blackout" (as Jim calls it) about at the midway point in downswing.

 

Mind telling me where he talks about "blackouts"? In the book?

Sounds very much like me...

 

Blackout is not really a topic in the Great Shot! ballstriking/golf swing e-book, which is mainly about the physical laws of body and club motion, and the psychology of effective practice routines. Its a part of our mental game training program, and I am currently re-writing the training manual for that program, which will cover blackout and flinching issues in depth.

[Jim Waldron]

Yes, Jim mentions it in the e-book.

 

I think my existing swing was hard hip thrust to start downswing, blackout at the same time I hammered my arms / hands / wrists at the ball and my pivot stalled. About halfway down i went all-out and mind went blank w "Hit Ball!" Impulse.

 

Working on it.

 

Great explanation for how the mind surrenders to the Hit Impulse! Some of my students actually are hearing a voice in their head say "Kill It!" or as you said "Hit the Ball NOW!" and of course the body responds to the voice by flinching in some way.

[mc3jack]

Jim's back! I've hit upon something that I wanted to ask you about.

 

I use a tailbone tilt, rock and rotate the left hip type of pelvic action. Using placement of my left foot in relation to my hip socket and how much its angled targetward, I can use left hip freedom/restriction as a accelerator/governor for timing my release. Because, as you know, in a passive release, the hands trigger when the left hip stalls (bad) or when the left hip nears full rotation, as the right hip swings around it (good).

 

Thinking this way I'm able to Stage at Get Set and Fire without concern, knowing my hands will release in the right place -- if I put my left foot in the correct spot in my set up. A few practice half swings, adjusting my feet and feeling the connection between the left hip turn and release spot does the trick. I'm Firing faster now, too, knowing I really only have to rotate my hip 30 degrees or so after I've transition 'rocked' , but really fast, and my arms/hands automatically do the so-called 'whipsnapping' thing through impact. I've had to add some Active release to keep up.

 

A key element is getting the foot *outside* not beneath the hip socket, so there's room for the joint to 'catch' the small rocking turn in my pelvis during transition, and still have mobility to allow rotation after that. Similar in thinking to Knudsen, if I recall correctly.

 

Not coincidentally, methinks, when I do the hinge pushaway from an address position....the butt of the club points near my left hip socket...if I set up my left leg correctly The upshot from all this is I feel like I control my swing, including how much 'lag' I want for a particular shot, with my left leg and hip. Right foot aversion keeps me solid enough, long enough to make it work.

 

Being a Hogan-head, I had to think this was one of his more important 'secrets.' Am I on to something here?

[Jim Waldron]

Jim's back! I've hit upon something that I wanted to ask you about.

 

I use a tailbone tilt, rock and rotate the left hip type of pelvic action. Using placement of my left foot in relation to my hip socket and how much its angled targetward, I can use left hip freedom/restriction as a accelerator/governor for timing my release. Because, as you know, in a passive release, the hands trigger when the left hip stalls (bad) or when the left hip nears full rotation, as the right hip swings around it (good).

 

Thinking this way I'm able to Stage at Get Set and Fire without concern, knowing my hands will release in the right place -- if I put my left foot in the correct spot in my set up. A few practice half swings, adjusting my feet and feeling the connection between the left hip turn and release spot does the trick. I'm Firing faster now, too, knowing I really only have to rotate my hip 30 degrees or so after I've transition 'rocked' , but really fast, and my arms/hands automatically do the so-called 'whipsnapping' thing through impact. I've had to add some Active release to keep up.

 

A key element is getting the foot *outside* not beneath the hip socket, so there's room for the joint to 'catch' the small rocking turn in my pelvis during transition, and still have mobility to allow rotation after that. Similar in thinking to Knudsen, if I recall correctly.

 

Being a Hogan-head, I had to think this was one of his more important 'secrets.' Am I on to something here?

 

I know that Jim Furyk uses that method to time his release: if he wants to hit a draw, he sets up with less flare in his left foot, and opposite for a fade. He clearly talked about how that affected the Left Wall formation/hip pivot decel piece, and thus wrist c0ck release timing.

 

Sounds like you are using a hybrid release, ie mostly passive but with a slight throw blended in, same way I do it.

 

I cant recall Hogan talking about left hip action affecting release timing, but it would not surprise me since he was so left hip oriented in his downswing feels.

[Galanga]

I concur - ASI is a light bulb turning on for sure. But, now I have to figure out what I see now that the light bulb is on.

 

Really enjoying your Great Shot e-book and learning a ton.

 

I am familiar with the left tilt in back swing and right tilt in down swing. I had been reading Kelvin Miyahira's articles and he speaks of this. Left tilt in back swing is a little harder for me than right tilt in downswing - tend to get a little reverse in my pivot.

 

Question: You speak of the left tilt in back swing. You also say, "You must arrive at the Top of Backswing with the exact same amount of rightward tilt that you had at Setup - no more and no less." For example, 10 degrees right tilt with driver. I am confused how you get left tilt in back swing but also maintain right tilt all the way to Top. Can sort this out for me?

 

Thank you.

 

Sorry for not being around much lately to respond more timely to these questions and comments, but been travelling and then when I did get home, had computer issues for a few days.

 

This question was answered pretty well by other members in the posts that follow this one, but I would just add that this is one of the most commonly asked questions in our Great Shot! golf swing school. The main issue is the effect of torso tilt toward the rear side of the body, from caddie view point and how that Top of backswing torso angle influences angle of attack and low point. The basic idea is that the more right tilt you have, the more likely your angle of attack will be shallow, and less right tilt, or even tilting leftwards at the top, tends to create a steep angle of attack. Since angle of attack and low point varies radically from wedge to driver, through the bag, you need to make a Setup adjustment to make it more likely that the club itself will automatically have a proper angle of attack. Steeper angles for wedges, shallower angles for woods. Much easier to set up with one of the four Spine Tilts - 0,5,10 or 15 degrees - and then let that automatically create the desired angle/low point.

 

Where this gets tough to understand is when you add the side bend or Tilt and how that influences the forward bend or Spine Angle. All caused by the Tilt Illusion - which is as or nearly as powerful as the arm swing illusion. Most golfers brains are victims of it and there have been plenty of flaming debates on this forum about it. "Left tilt" in the backswing DOES NOT MEAN LEFT FROM CADDIE VIEW! It means that your torso is bending to the left side of itself, just like doing side bends in exercise class, and that this happening AT THE SAME TIME AS THE TORSO, CORE AND HIP ROTATION - AND - AT THE SAME TIME AS YOUR TORSO LIFTING UP OUT OF ITS BEND FORWARD FROM THE HIP SOCKETS.

 

This is a radical concept in golf instruction and one that until very recently only a handful of instructors knew about. The reason why is simple - we "think" visually in two dimensions, and when we look at a tv or computer screen or photos, we are also in 2D mode. Even in 3D real world, in normal consciousness our mind kind of gets lazy and tends to dull the third dimension aspect of what we are seeing, unless for some reason you are really engaged and more focused than normal.

 

Thanks for this explanation, Jim. Started making much more sense to me now. I had heard this once before in 12 years of golfing but never got it, now I do: "AT THE SAME TIME AS YOUR TORSO LIFTING UP OUT OF ITS BEND FORWARD FROM THE HIP SOCKETS." I think this, plus, your explanation of how the tilts work (right tilt at set-up ends up being forward hip bend (from golfer's POV) has really gotten my backswing pivot working much better. I think this better understanding of the back swing pivot is going to help take the arms/hands/wrists hit from my swing - I will have more pivot to hit it with. Pieces starting to coalesce.

[ofortuna]

I concur - ASI is a light bulb turning on for sure. But, now I have to figure out what I see now that the light bulb is on.

 

Really enjoying your Great Shot e-book and learning a ton.

 

I am familiar with the left tilt in back swing and right tilt in down swing. I had been reading Kelvin Miyahira's articles and he speaks of this. Left tilt in back swing is a little harder for me than right tilt in downswing - tend to get a little reverse in my pivot.

 

Question: You speak of the left tilt in back swing. You also say, "You must arrive at the Top of Backswing with the exact same amount of rightward tilt that you had at Setup - no more and no less." For example, 10 degrees right tilt with driver. I am confused how you get left tilt in back swing but also maintain right tilt all the way to Top. Can sort this out for me?

 

Thank you.

 

Sorry for not being around much lately to respond more timely to these questions and comments, but been travelling and then when I did get home, had computer issues for a few days.

 

This question was answered pretty well by other members in the posts that follow this one, but I would just add that this is one of the most commonly asked questions in our Great Shot! golf swing school. The main issue is the effect of torso tilt toward the rear side of the body, from caddie view point and how that Top of backswing torso angle influences angle of attack and low point. The basic idea is that the more right tilt you have, the more likely your angle of attack will be shallow, and less right tilt, or even tilting leftwards at the top, tends to create a steep angle of attack. Since angle of attack and low point varies radically from wedge to driver, through the bag, you need to make a Setup adjustment to make it more likely that the club itself will automatically have a proper angle of attack. Steeper angles for wedges, shallower angles for woods. Much easier to set up with one of the four Spine Tilts - 0,5,10 or 15 degrees - and then let that automatically create the desired angle/low point.

 

Where this gets tough to understand is when you add the side bend or Tilt and how that influences the forward bend or Spine Angle. All caused by the Tilt Illusion - which is as or nearly as powerful as the arm swing illusion. Most golfers brains are victims of it and there have been plenty of flaming debates on this forum about it. "Left tilt" in the backswing DOES NOT MEAN LEFT FROM CADDIE VIEW! It means that your torso is bending to the left side of itself, just like doing side bends in exercise class, and that this happening AT THE SAME TIME AS THE TORSO, CORE AND HIP ROTATION - AND - AT THE SAME TIME AS YOUR TORSO LIFTING UP OUT OF ITS BEND FORWARD FROM THE HIP SOCKETS.

 

This is a radical concept in golf instruction and one that until very recently only a handful of instructors knew about. The reason why is simple - we "think" visually in two dimensions, and when we look at a tv or computer screen or photos, we are also in 2D mode. Even in 3D real world, in normal consciousness our mind kind of gets lazy and tends to dull the third dimension aspect of what we are seeing, unless for some reason you are really engaged and more focused than normal.

 

Thanks for this explanation, Jim. Started making much more sense to me now. I had heard this once before in 12 years of golfing but never got it, now I do: "AT THE SAME TIME AS YOUR TORSO LIFTING UP OUT OF ITS BEND FORWARD FROM THE HIP SOCKETS." I think this, plus, your explanation of how the tilts work (right tilt at set-up ends up being forward hip bend (from golfer's POV) has really gotten my backswing pivot working much better. I think this better understanding of the back swing pivot is going to help take the arms/hands/wrists hit from my swing - I will have more pivot to hit it with. Pieces starting to coalesce.

 

I've always had this strange move backward of my head during the last 1/4 of my backswing. When I focus on removing more of my forward tilt resulting in the feel of my chest facing more horizontally at the top, this sway of my head seems to have been eliminated. Looks good on video but initially feels very odd.

 

Now during transition, I am supposed to start putting this forward bend back. It looks like I'm squatting.

 

So my question is, since impact occurs with my shoulders and hips open, at what point am I starting to remove this forward bend again and replace with rightward tilt? Does this happen before impact? Can this move, done at the correct time, help me with my forward head sway as it did with my backswing? Eliminating the forward bending going into the follow through really seems to help keep my head back.

 

I think I understand the general idea of what is supposed to happen but I always hit a speed bump when I try to sync it with my arms.

[mc3jack]

I concur - ASI is a light bulb turning on for sure. But, now I have to figure out what I see now that the light bulb is on.

 

Really enjoying your Great Shot e-book and learning a ton.

 

I am familiar with the left tilt in back swing and right tilt in down swing. I had been reading Kelvin Miyahira's articles and he speaks of this. Left tilt in back swing is a little harder for me than right tilt in downswing - tend to get a little reverse in my pivot.

 

Question: You speak of the left tilt in back swing. You also say, "You must arrive at the Top of Backswing with the exact same amount of rightward tilt that you had at Setup - no more and no less." For example, 10 degrees right tilt with driver. I am confused how you get left tilt in back swing but also maintain right tilt all the way to Top. Can sort this out for me?

 

Thank you.

 

Sorry for not being around much lately to respond more timely to these questions and comments, but been travelling and then when I did get home, had computer issues for a few days.

 

This question was answered pretty well by other members in the posts that follow this one, but I would just add that this is one of the most commonly asked questions in our Great Shot! golf swing school. The main issue is the effect of torso tilt toward the rear side of the body, from caddie view point and how that Top of backswing torso angle influences angle of attack and low point. The basic idea is that the more right tilt you have, the more likely your angle of attack will be shallow, and less right tilt, or even tilting leftwards at the top, tends to create a steep angle of attack. Since angle of attack and low point varies radically from wedge to driver, through the bag, you need to make a Setup adjustment to make it more likely that the club itself will automatically have a proper angle of attack. Steeper angles for wedges, shallower angles for woods. Much easier to set up with one of the four Spine Tilts - 0,5,10 or 15 degrees - and then let that automatically create the desired angle/low point.

 

Where this gets tough to understand is when you add the side bend or Tilt and how that influences the forward bend or Spine Angle. All caused by the Tilt Illusion - which is as or nearly as powerful as the arm swing illusion. Most golfers brains are victims of it and there have been plenty of flaming debates on this forum about it. "Left tilt" in the backswing DOES NOT MEAN LEFT FROM CADDIE VIEW! It means that your torso is bending to the left side of itself, just like doing side bends in exercise class, and that this happening AT THE SAME TIME AS THE TORSO, CORE AND HIP ROTATION - AND - AT THE SAME TIME AS YOUR TORSO LIFTING UP OUT OF ITS BEND FORWARD FROM THE HIP SOCKETS.

 

This is a radical concept in golf instruction and one that until very recently only a handful of instructors knew about. The reason why is simple - we "think" visually in two dimensions, and when we look at a tv or computer screen or photos, we are also in 2D mode. Even in 3D real world, in normal consciousness our mind kind of gets lazy and tends to dull the third dimension aspect of what we are seeing, unless for some reason you are really engaged and more focused than normal.

 

Thanks for this explanation, Jim. Started making much more sense to me now. I had heard this once before in 12 years of golfing but never got it, now I do: "AT THE SAME TIME AS YOUR TORSO LIFTING UP OUT OF ITS BEND FORWARD FROM THE HIP SOCKETS." I think this, plus, your explanation of how the tilts work (right tilt at set-up ends up being forward hip bend (from golfer's POV) has really gotten my backswing pivot working much better. I think this better understanding of the back swing pivot is going to help take the arms/hands/wrists hit from my swing - I will have more pivot to hit it with. Pieces starting to coalesce.

 

I've always had this strange move backward of my head during the last 1/4 of my backswing. When I focus on removing more of my forward tilt resulting in the feel of my chest facing more horizontally at the top, this sway of my head seems to have been eliminated. Looks good on video but initially feels very odd.

 

Now during transition, I am supposed to start putting this forward bend back. It looks like I'm squatting.

 

So my question is, since impact occurs with my shoulders and hips open, at what point am I starting to remove this forward bend again and replace with rightward tilt? Does this happen before impact? Can this move, done at the correct time, help me with my forward head sway as it did with my backswing? Eliminating the forward bending going into the follow through really seems to help keep my head back.

 

I think I understand the general idea of what is supposed to happen but I always hit a speed bump when I try to sync it with my arms.

 

'tuna what worked for me was imagining my upper obliques were doing little sideways 'ab crunches' as I rotated. Instead of thinking 'tilt the shoulder' this way or that, I just combined an oblique crunch with my rotation move each direction.

 

Jim doesn't advocate 'shoulder ducking' or 'scapular release' ... he likes a very stable shoulder girdle in his model, so using the obliques works great for avoiding shoulder manipulation. For me. And it keeps my shoulder tilt action in one-dimension (sideways only) so it's easier/more consistent to blend with rotation. If you look in the mirror on the downswing you'll see *bowed* opposing left oblique extension -- a familiar sight in famous golf swings.

 

It's a small move. Don't overdo the crunching or you get too deep into your lumbar. Mirror work first, slo-mo, etc. The first time guys try the right-side oblique crunch they invariably do it too early, hip slide . . . and then fear the move. Blennnnnnd it into your rotation.

 

One of my favorite 'feels' is the relationship between right triceps extension and how it 'causes' the sideways tilt to happen, based on the musculoskeletal relationship fostered by Jim's Three Postural Braces. Check it out at P2, parallel to ground: Really push with the right arm, don't let your left shoulder disconnect, and watch how right arm pressure fosters side bend. The angular change as the arm moves in front of chest rotation increases the pressure that fosters bend...until your right arm has to start folding...and you're about done tilting. Do this on the shaft plane and you'll have the right amount of bend automatic

 

The right side is trickier...and why it's the move only good ballstrikers have. The pressure of the right triceps extensor does nothing for the right side tilt until the chest has rotated past the ball. This is why you see guys who swing deeeep through the shot seem to have massive spine tilt. Their right arm extensor action moving IN FRONT of their shoulder socket, never laterally, when the chest is rotating past and beyond the ball, helps *cause* the right side tilt.

 

And now you know why Extensor Pressure in early armwork while unlearning the ASI pays off. And why arm flingers' shoulders won't work the right way. There's a relationship.

 

Right handed golfers are typically more muscular/less flexible in their right side, so beginners struggle with 'getting down through the strike.' And every Ammie's obliques are weak. Notice those weird exercises you see the pro's doing?

 

Now the caveat I always say about learning the tilt - turn.... you MUST have competency at the Three Postural Braces before you mess with this, or you're wasting time/risking injury!

[Jim Waldron]

I concur - ASI is a light bulb turning on for sure. But, now I have to figure out what I see now that the light bulb is on.

 

Really enjoying your Great Shot e-book and learning a ton.

 

I am familiar with the left tilt in back swing and right tilt in down swing. I had been reading Kelvin Miyahira's articles and he speaks of this. Left tilt in back swing is a little harder for me than right tilt in downswing - tend to get a little reverse in my pivot.

 

Question: You speak of the left tilt in back swing. You also say, "You must arrive at the Top of Backswing with the exact same amount of rightward tilt that you had at Setup - no more and no less." For example, 10 degrees right tilt with driver. I am confused how you get left tilt in back swing but also maintain right tilt all the way to Top. Can sort this out for me?

 

Thank you.

 

Sorry for not being around much lately to respond more timely to these questions and comments, but been travelling and then when I did get home, had computer issues for a few days.

 

This question was answered pretty well by other members in the posts that follow this one, but I would just add that this is one of the most commonly asked questions in our Great Shot! golf swing school. The main issue is the effect of torso tilt toward the rear side of the body, from caddie view point and how that Top of backswing torso angle influences angle of attack and low point. The basic idea is that the more right tilt you have, the more likely your angle of attack will be shallow, and less right tilt, or even tilting leftwards at the top, tends to create a steep angle of attack. Since angle of attack and low point varies radically from wedge to driver, through the bag, you need to make a Setup adjustment to make it more likely that the club itself will automatically have a proper angle of attack. Steeper angles for wedges, shallower angles for woods. Much easier to set up with one of the four Spine Tilts - 0,5,10 or 15 degrees - and then let that automatically create the desired angle/low point.

 

Where this gets tough to understand is when you add the side bend or Tilt and how that influences the forward bend or Spine Angle. All caused by the Tilt Illusion - which is as or nearly as powerful as the arm swing illusion. Most golfers brains are victims of it and there have been plenty of flaming debates on this forum about it. "Left tilt" in the backswing DOES NOT MEAN LEFT FROM CADDIE VIEW! It means that your torso is bending to the left side of itself, just like doing side bends in exercise class, and that this happening AT THE SAME TIME AS THE TORSO, CORE AND HIP ROTATION - AND - AT THE SAME TIME AS YOUR TORSO LIFTING UP OUT OF ITS BEND FORWARD FROM THE HIP SOCKETS.

 

This is a radical concept in golf instruction and one that until very recently only a handful of instructors knew about. The reason why is simple - we "think" visually in two dimensions, and when we look at a tv or computer screen or photos, we are also in 2D mode. Even in 3D real world, in normal consciousness our mind kind of gets lazy and tends to dull the third dimension aspect of what we are seeing, unless for some reason you are really engaged and more focused than normal.

 

Thanks for this explanation, Jim. Started making much more sense to me now. I had heard this once before in 12 years of golfing but never got it, now I do: "AT THE SAME TIME AS YOUR TORSO LIFTING UP OUT OF ITS BEND FORWARD FROM THE HIP SOCKETS." I think this, plus, your explanation of how the tilts work (right tilt at set-up ends up being forward hip bend (from golfer's POV) has really gotten my backswing pivot working much better. I think this better understanding of the back swing pivot is going to help take the arms/hands/wrists hit from my swing - I will have more pivot to hit it with. Pieces starting to coalesce.

 

I've always had this strange move backward of my head during the last 1/4 of my backswing. When I focus on removing more of my forward tilt resulting in the feel of my chest facing more horizontally at the top, this sway of my head seems to have been eliminated. Looks good on video but initially feels very odd.

 

Now during transition, I am supposed to start putting this forward bend back. It looks like I'm squatting.

 

So my question is, since impact occurs with my shoulders and hips open, at what point am I starting to remove this forward bend again and replace with rightward tilt? Does this happen before impact? Can this move, done at the correct time, help me with my forward head sway as it did with my backswing? Eliminating the forward bending going into the follow through really seems to help keep my head back.

 

I think I understand the general idea of what is supposed to happen but I always hit a speed bump when I try to sync it with my arms.

 

You need to synchonize the 1. un-coiling of the hips, core and torso with the 2. restoring hip flexion or forward torso tilt plus one inch or so with the 3. Tilt Switch, ie change over from tilting left side of the body to tilting to the right side. Only way to know if you are doing this correctly is to do it first in slow mo in front of a mirror. Your hips will be on the tush line and your torso spine angle in the toward the target line/ground dimension will stay the same, and your hips will be about 10-20 degrees open at Get Set position, and shoulder girdle/chest about 15 degrees closed.

 

You start to restore hip flexion or forward bend as soon as you start your Transition. And then you stand up again during Release and replace that "lost" forward bend my right tilting.

 

I know this sounds nuts to probably most folks who are reading it - unfortunately it is what good players do, even though when you analyze it and de-construct it, almost sounds impossible to execute.

[Jim Waldron]

I concur - ASI is a light bulb turning on for sure. But, now I have to figure out what I see now that the light bulb is on.

 

Really enjoying your Great Shot e-book and learning a ton.

 

I am familiar with the left tilt in back swing and right tilt in down swing. I had been reading Kelvin Miyahira's articles and he speaks of this. Left tilt in back swing is a little harder for me than right tilt in downswing - tend to get a little reverse in my pivot.

 

Question: You speak of the left tilt in back swing. You also say, "You must arrive at the Top of Backswing with the exact same amount of rightward tilt that you had at Setup - no more and no less." For example, 10 degrees right tilt with driver. I am confused how you get left tilt in back swing but also maintain right tilt all the way to Top. Can sort this out for me?

 

Thank you.

 

Sorry for not being around much lately to respond more timely to these questions and comments, but been travelling and then when I did get home, had computer issues for a few days.

 

This question was answered pretty well by other members in the posts that follow this one, but I would just add that this is one of the most commonly asked questions in our Great Shot! golf swing school. The main issue is the effect of torso tilt toward the rear side of the body, from caddie view point and how that Top of backswing torso angle influences angle of attack and low point. The basic idea is that the more right tilt you have, the more likely your angle of attack will be shallow, and less right tilt, or even tilting leftwards at the top, tends to create a steep angle of attack. Since angle of attack and low point varies radically from wedge to driver, through the bag, you need to make a Setup adjustment to make it more likely that the club itself will automatically have a proper angle of attack. Steeper angles for wedges, shallower angles for woods. Much easier to set up with one of the four Spine Tilts - 0,5,10 or 15 degrees - and then let that automatically create the desired angle/low point.

 

Where this gets tough to understand is when you add the side bend or Tilt and how that influences the forward bend or Spine Angle. All caused by the Tilt Illusion - which is as or nearly as powerful as the arm swing illusion. Most golfers brains are victims of it and there have been plenty of flaming debates on this forum about it. "Left tilt" in the backswing DOES NOT MEAN LEFT FROM CADDIE VIEW! It means that your torso is bending to the left side of itself, just like doing side bends in exercise class, and that this happening AT THE SAME TIME AS THE TORSO, CORE AND HIP ROTATION - AND - AT THE SAME TIME AS YOUR TORSO LIFTING UP OUT OF ITS BEND FORWARD FROM THE HIP SOCKETS.

 

This is a radical concept in golf instruction and one that until very recently only a handful of instructors knew about. The reason why is simple - we "think" visually in two dimensions, and when we look at a tv or computer screen or photos, we are also in 2D mode. Even in 3D real world, in normal consciousness our mind kind of gets lazy and tends to dull the third dimension aspect of what we are seeing, unless for some reason you are really engaged and more focused than normal.

 

Thanks for this explanation, Jim. Started making much more sense to me now. I had heard this once before in 12 years of golfing but never got it, now I do: "AT THE SAME TIME AS YOUR TORSO LIFTING UP OUT OF ITS BEND FORWARD FROM THE HIP SOCKETS." I think this, plus, your explanation of how the tilts work (right tilt at set-up ends up being forward hip bend (from golfer's POV) has really gotten my backswing pivot working much better. I think this better understanding of the back swing pivot is going to help take the arms/hands/wrists hit from my swing - I will have more pivot to hit it with. Pieces starting to coalesce.

 

I've always had this strange move backward of my head during the last 1/4 of my backswing. When I focus on removing more of my forward tilt resulting in the feel of my chest facing more horizontally at the top, this sway of my head seems to have been eliminated. Looks good on video but initially feels very odd.

 

Now during transition, I am supposed to start putting this forward bend back. It looks like I'm squatting.

 

So my question is, since impact occurs with my shoulders and hips open, at what point am I starting to remove this forward bend again and replace with rightward tilt? Does this happen before impact? Can this move, done at the correct time, help me with my forward head sway as it did with my backswing? Eliminating the forward bending going into the follow through really seems to help keep my head back.

 

I think I understand the general idea of what is supposed to happen but I always hit a speed bump when I try to sync it with my arms.

 

'tuna what worked for me was imagining my upper obliques were doing little sideways 'ab crunches' as I rotated. Instead of thinking 'tilt the shoulder' this way or that, I just combined an oblique crunch with my rotation move each direction.

 

Jim doesn't advocate 'shoulder ducking' or 'scapular release' ... he likes a very stable shoulder girdle in his model, so using the obliques works great for avoiding shoulder manipulation. For me. And it keeps my shoulder tilt action in one-dimension (sideways only) so it's easier/more consistent to blend with rotation. If you look in the mirror on the downswing you'll see *bowed* opposing left oblique extension -- a familiar sight in famous golf swings.

 

It's a small move. Don't overdo the crunching or you get too deep into your lumbar. Mirror work first, slo-mo, etc. The first time guys try the right-side oblique crunch they invariably do it too early, hip slide . . . and then fear the move. Blennnnnnd it into your rotation.

 

One of my favorite 'feels' is the relationship between right triceps extension and how it 'causes' the sideways tilt to happen, based on the musculoskeletal relationship fostered by Jim's Three Postural Braces. Check it out at P2, parallel to ground: Really push with the right arm, don't let your left shoulder disconnect, and watch how right arm pressure fosters side bend. The angular change as the arm moves in front of chest rotation increases the pressure that fosters bend...until your right arm has to start folding...and you're about done tilting. Do this on the shaft plane and you'll have the right amount of bend automatic

 

The right side is trickier...and why it's the move only good ballstrikers have. The pressure of the right triceps extensor does nothing for the right side tilt until the chest has rotated past the ball. This is why you see guys who swing deeeep through the shot seem to have massive spine tilt. Their right arm extensor action moving IN FRONT of their shoulder socket, never laterally, when the chest is rotating past and beyond the ball, helps *cause* the right side tilt.

 

And now you know why Extensor Pressure in early armwork while unlearning the ASI pays off. And why arm flingers' shoulders won't work the right way. There's a relationship.

 

Right handed golfers are typically more muscular/less flexible in their right side, so beginners struggle with 'getting down through the strike.' And every Ammie's obliques are weak. Notice those weird exercises you see the pro's doing?

 

Now the caveat I always say about learning the tilt - turn.... you MUST have competency at the Three Postural Braces before you mess with this, or you're wasting time/risking injury!

 

Great post, Mc - and very insightful!

 

Obliques along with QL muscles are the primary causes of the side bending/tilting.

 

And the Postural Braces are indeed essential - one reason they are covered in Module One.

[ofortuna]

I concur - ASI is a light bulb turning on for sure. But, now I have to figure out what I see now that the light bulb is on.

 

Really enjoying your Great Shot e-book and learning a ton.

 

I am familiar with the left tilt in back swing and right tilt in down swing. I had been reading Kelvin Miyahira's articles and he speaks of this. Left tilt in back swing is a little harder for me than right tilt in downswing - tend to get a little reverse in my pivot.

 

Question: You speak of the left tilt in back swing. You also say, "You must arrive at the Top of Backswing with the exact same amount of rightward tilt that you had at Setup - no more and no less." For example, 10 degrees right tilt with driver. I am confused how you get left tilt in back swing but also maintain right tilt all the way to Top. Can sort this out for me?

 

Thank you.

 

Sorry for not being around much lately to respond more timely to these questions and comments, but been travelling and then when I did get home, had computer issues for a few days.

 

This question was answered pretty well by other members in the posts that follow this one, but I would just add that this is one of the most commonly asked questions in our Great Shot! golf swing school. The main issue is the effect of torso tilt toward the rear side of the body, from caddie view point and how that Top of backswing torso angle influences angle of attack and low point. The basic idea is that the more right tilt you have, the more likely your angle of attack will be shallow, and less right tilt, or even tilting leftwards at the top, tends to create a steep angle of attack. Since angle of attack and low point varies radically from wedge to driver, through the bag, you need to make a Setup adjustment to make it more likely that the club itself will automatically have a proper angle of attack. Steeper angles for wedges, shallower angles for woods. Much easier to set up with one of the four Spine Tilts - 0,5,10 or 15 degrees - and then let that automatically create the desired angle/low point.

 

Where this gets tough to understand is when you add the side bend or Tilt and how that influences the forward bend or Spine Angle. All caused by the Tilt Illusion - which is as or nearly as powerful as the arm swing illusion. Most golfers brains are victims of it and there have been plenty of flaming debates on this forum about it. "Left tilt" in the backswing DOES NOT MEAN LEFT FROM CADDIE VIEW! It means that your torso is bending to the left side of itself, just like doing side bends in exercise class, and that this happening AT THE SAME TIME AS THE TORSO, CORE AND HIP ROTATION - AND - AT THE SAME TIME AS YOUR TORSO LIFTING UP OUT OF ITS BEND FORWARD FROM THE HIP SOCKETS.

 

This is a radical concept in golf instruction and one that until very recently only a handful of instructors knew about. The reason why is simple - we "think" visually in two dimensions, and when we look at a tv or computer screen or photos, we are also in 2D mode. Even in 3D real world, in normal consciousness our mind kind of gets lazy and tends to dull the third dimension aspect of what we are seeing, unless for some reason you are really engaged and more focused than normal.

 

Thanks for this explanation, Jim. Started making much more sense to me now. I had heard this once before in 12 years of golfing but never got it, now I do: "AT THE SAME TIME AS YOUR TORSO LIFTING UP OUT OF ITS BEND FORWARD FROM THE HIP SOCKETS." I think this, plus, your explanation of how the tilts work (right tilt at set-up ends up being forward hip bend (from golfer's POV) has really gotten my backswing pivot working much better. I think this better understanding of the back swing pivot is going to help take the arms/hands/wrists hit from my swing - I will have more pivot to hit it with. Pieces starting to coalesce.

 

I've always had this strange move backward of my head during the last 1/4 of my backswing. When I focus on removing more of my forward tilt resulting in the feel of my chest facing more horizontally at the top, this sway of my head seems to have been eliminated. Looks good on video but initially feels very odd.

 

Now during transition, I am supposed to start putting this forward bend back. It looks like I'm squatting.

 

So my question is, since impact occurs with my shoulders and hips open, at what point am I starting to remove this forward bend again and replace with rightward tilt? Does this happen before impact? Can this move, done at the correct time, help me with my forward head sway as it did with my backswing? Eliminating the forward bending going into the follow through really seems to help keep my head back.

 

I think I understand the general idea of what is supposed to happen but I always hit a speed bump when I try to sync it with my arms.

 

You need to synchonize the 1. un-coiling of the hips, core and torso with the 2. restoring hip flexion or forward torso tilt plus one inch or so with the 3. Tilt Switch, ie change over from tilting left side of the body to tilting to the right side. Only way to know if you are doing this correctly is to do it first in slow mo in front of a mirror. Your hips will be on the tush line and your torso spine angle in the toward the target line/ground dimension will stay the same, and your hips will be about 10-20 degrees open at Get Set position, and shoulder girdle/chest about 15 degrees closed.

 

You start to restore hip flexion or forward bend as soon as you start your Transition. And then you stand up again during Release and replace that "lost" forward bend my right tilting.

 

I know this sounds nuts to probably most folks who are reading it - unfortunately it is what good players do, even though when you analyze it and de-construct it, almost sounds impossible to execute.

 

I can hardly believe it but I think I understood this! Just don't use it as a swing thought when playing.

 

Just messing around, I tried to do this without any turn to get a feel for what is going on.

1. I stand at setup
   
2. I stand straight up while doing a left crunch.
   
3. I bend forward to setup position again removing my left crunch.
   
4. I stand up while doing a right crunch.
   

 

Now I repeat while turning back and forth while keeping my head in the same spot.

 

Is this right? Will it give me a feel for the change of forward bend mixed with side crunches?

[Jim Waldron]

Yes, it is right in a basic way. Head steady is a big part of it, and also lateral lower body weight shift to the left in Transition is an important puzzle piece.

[Jim Waldron]

Module Three is almost done, we ended up adding about 25 minutes of drills. Almost three hours long - two hours and 55 minutes total viewing time, so a ton of good info on arm mechanics. I really like this video, I think it is going to be our second most popular video right after Module 2 on the ASI. It will really help clear up a lot of the questions and mis-perceptions folks have about arms in the swing.

 

Hope to have it up by Monday.

[mc3jack]

Great post, Mc - and very insightful!

 

Obliques along with QL muscles are the primary causes of the side bending/tilting.

 

And the Postural Braces are indeed essential - one reason they are covered in Module One.

 

 

Thanks Jim. The deeper I get into Waldronology, the deeper the insights. Especially in the mental game. I barely notice the ball now, just stare at where I want the ball to fly. It's nuts. In an awesome way.

[Galanga]

One thing I have noticed is with eyes closed doing slo-mo swings, there is no illusion - I sense the club being dead in front of me off the right side of my chest and I can map the pivot to finish - feels plain as day. With eyes open, that is a different story. That's when the illusion still tricks me. I can, at times feel my arms pulling to my right (right handed) and I also will, at times, roll the club clockwise to the right (instructors have told me I "warp" my plane) - all part of the illusion. My goal is to do more eyes closed slo-mo swings wherein the illusion is gone and groove that move and wait, patiently, for it to show up consistently when my eyes are open.

[Galanga]

Move Away part 3

 

[media=]

[/media]

 

May have been answered far earlier, but, again, I am new to ASI. If with driver, the left arm angle is more like 30 degrees, then when we turn the shoulders 45 degrees, I shouldn't expect my left arm to be at 90 degrees at end of takeaway, I should expect it to be at 105 degrees relative to my sternum. A little deeper. Correct?

[4pillars]

One thing I have noticed is with eyes closed doing slo-mo swings, there is no illusion - I sense the club being dead in front of me off the right side of my chest and I can map the pivot to finish - feels plain as day. With eyes open, that is a different story. That's when the illusion still tricks me. I can, at times feel my arms pulling to my right (right handed) and I also will, at times, roll the club clockwise to the right (instructors have told me I "warp" my plane) - all part of the illusion. My goal is to do more eyes closed slo-mo swings wherein the illusion is gone and groove that move and wait, patiently, for it to show up consistently when my eyes are open.

 

You should play blindfolded golf.

 

You just need someone to set the ball up for you.

[Jim Waldron]

Move Away part 3

 

[media=]

[/media]

 

May have been answered far earlier, but, again, I am new to ASI. If with driver, the left arm angle is more like 30 degrees, then when we turn the shoulders 45 degrees, I shouldn't expect my left arm to be at 90 degrees at end of takeaway, I should expect it to be at 105 degrees relative to my sternum. A little deeper. Correct?

 

That video is from 19 years ago, and my own understanding of the Illusion and it's ramifications is much better now than back then. For anyone wishing to learn more about the ASI I strongly recommend buying and then studying Module Two video on the ASI, it has all the most current information.

 

The current model is that you attain a 45 degree left arm to chest angle for ALL clubs during takeaway. Then during second half of backswing the angle of the arm will become closer to the chest, ie further from mid-line of torso, with all clubs except the wedges (or at least with wedges only very slight change) due to Pivot momentum leaking into the arm/shoulder socket joint. The longer the club, the more Pivot momentum will cause this to happen, so with driver, you have the most "across the chest" angle. This is covered in depth in our e-book and in Module 4 on the Pivot and in Module 6 second half of backswing Swing Segment.

[Galanga]

One thing I have noticed is with eyes closed doing slo-mo swings, there is no illusion - I sense the club being dead in front of me off the right side of my chest and I can map the pivot to finish - feels plain as day. With eyes open, that is a different story. That's when the illusion still tricks me. I can, at times feel my arms pulling to my right (right handed) and I also will, at times, roll the club clockwise to the right (instructors have told me I "warp" my plane) - all part of the illusion. My goal is to do more eyes closed slo-mo swings wherein the illusion is gone and groove that move and wait, patiently, for it to show up consistently when my eyes are open.

 

You should play blindfolded golf.

 

You just need someone to set the ball up for you.

 

I thought of that too. Darn vision.

[Galanga]

Move Away part 3

 

[media=]

[/media]

 

May have been answered far earlier, but, again, I am new to ASI. If with driver, the left arm angle is more like 30 degrees, then when we turn the shoulders 45 degrees, I shouldn't expect my left arm to be at 90 degrees at end of takeaway, I should expect it to be at 105 degrees relative to my sternum. A little deeper. Correct?

 

That video is from 19 years ago, and my own understanding of the Illusion and it's ramifications is much better now than back then. For anyone wishing to learn more about the ASI I strongly recommend buying and then studying Module Two video on the ASI, it has all the most current information.

 

The current model is that you attain a 45 degree left arm to chest angle for ALL clubs during takeaway. Then during second half of backswing the angle of the arm will become closer to the chest, ie further from mid-line of torso, with all clubs except the wedges (or at least with wedges only very slight change) due to Pivot momentum leaking into the arm/shoulder socket joint. The longer the club, the more Pivot momentum will cause this to happen, so with driver, you have the most "across the chest" angle. This is covered in depth in our e-book and in Module 4 on the Pivot and in Module 6 second half of backswing Swing Segment.

 

Ok, thanks, Jim. That's actually easier to figure. I do have the e-book and ASI video, so, I need to study more. And, I may get the Pivot video as I find the motion you describe with tilts, hip flexion changes and turn enlightening. Never heard it put that way, but, makes total sense.

[Galanga]

I am not seeing "Module 4 on the Pivot and in Module 6 second half of backswing Swing Segment" on Balancepointgolf.com. Are these modules pending?

[Galanga]

Another sense I get is that I actually have to slow my pivot on the down swing compared to my recent, "normal" swing. I used to pivot hard with the hips from the get-go and likely had my triangle lagging too much from which I recovered via arm and hand muscle movement. The steady accelerating pivot thrust seems to work best at present. I think of it as my "diesel" auto transmission swing as compared to my more normal fast-revving 4-cylinder swing with a clutch pop at transition.