Beginning my try at duplicating Hogan's Swing

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  • Ben Hogan Swing ProjectBen Hogan Swing Project Members  970WRX Points: 0Posts: 970
    Joined:  edited Aug 9, 2011 #32


    One of my playing partners asked how the project was going and who I was using as a teacher. Told him I am working on the address right now and that I have no teacher.



    At this point, I only listen to my eyes. That's my secret. If someone gives me a book with a description of how to do a dance move, it will be from their perspective, from what they feel. My perspective may be totally different. I may translate what they are saying as something way off base. Plus they will surely leave out an intricate detail because to them, the detail is so much a part of a common human move, that they will expect everyone to already know of it.



    If they give me a video to duplicate, I can break it down into mini moves, and just get in a mirror till I am spot on.



    So my hypothesis is that I cannot duplicate hogans swing by reading the book or someone telling me how to do it. I just have to break the address onto 1 inch mini moves. Same for all the rest.



    When I was into competitive bodybuilding, most of the guys were always focused on bow much they weighed and what their bodyfat percentage was. Once we stepped on stage in a competition, the judges didn't ask what our weight and bf% was, they only looked at what we had built.



    The hogan videos are my #1 training aid. Without them, this project is impossible.




    An example of how I translate the address position is not quite what Hogan put it. If I had to describe it at this point:

    - My head is turned about 5 degrees to the right of center.

    - I am looking at the ball with my left eye.

    - My chin is down.

    - My upper back is slumped with a curved spine.

    - My right knee is bowed inward.

    - My left foot is turned slightly open to the target, and left knee bowed a bit inward.

    - My shoulders are rounded forward; feels like

    - Feels like someone has jumped out of a horror movie with a Rambo knife, and has jammed it direct into the middle of my shoulder blades and upper back.

    - My right elbow feels like it is bowed out about 5 feet, but video shows it to be only 1 inch.
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  • SwingNVSwingNV Members  96WRX Points: 0Posts: 96
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    One of my playing partners asked how the project was going and who I was using as a teacher. Told him I am working on the address right now and that I have no teacher.



    At this point, I only listen to my eyes. That's my secret. If someone gives me a book with a description of how to do a dance move, it will be from their perspective, from what they feel. My perspective may be totally different. I may translate what they are saying as something way off base. Plus they will surely leave out an intricate detail because to them, the detail is so much a part of a common human move, that they will expect everyone to already know of it.



    If they give me a video to duplicate, I can break it down into mini moves, and just get in a mirror till I am spot on.



    So my hypothesis is that I cannot duplicate hogans swing by reading the book or someone telling me how to do it. I just have to break the address onto 1 inch mini moves. Same for all the rest.



    When I was into competitive bodybuilding, most of the guys were always focused on bow much they weighed and what their bodyfat percentage was. Once we stepped on stage in a competition, the judges didn't ask what our weight and bf% was, they only looked at what we had built.



    The hogan videos are my #1 training aid. Without them, this project is impossible.






    The problem with trying to emulate every position inch by inch is that you are copying Hogan's results instead of his intentions. If you want to do an inch by inch replica, do it of Hogan's slow-motion videos. That way you are copying his INTENT inch by inch.



    To prove my point, watch the Coleman beach video and compare Hogan's slow-motion swings to his real swing. His positions are completely different due to the dynamics imposed by an orbiting club.



    This is also why reading his book is invaluable in my opinion. The entire book was based on intentions because Hogan knew that was the way to better golf, not trying to emulate positions.
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  • Ben Hogan Swing ProjectBen Hogan Swing Project Members  970WRX Points: 0Posts: 970
    Joined:  edited Aug 9, 2011 #34
    SwingNV wrote:
    One of my playing partners asked how the project was going and who I was using as a teacher. Told him I am working on the address right now and that I have no teacher. At this point, I only listen to my eyes. That's my secret. If someone gives me a book with a description of how to do a dance move, it will be from their perspective, from what they feel. My perspective may be totally different. I may translate what they are saying as something way off base. Plus they will surely leave out an intricate detail because to them, the detail is so much a part of a common human move, that they will expect everyone to already know of it. If they give me a video to duplicate, I can break it down into mini moves, and just get in a mirror till I am spot on. So my hypothesis is that I cannot duplicate hogans swing by reading the book or someone telling me how to do it. I just have to break the address onto 1 inch mini moves. Same for all the rest. When I was into competitive bodybuilding, most of the guys were always focused on bow much they weighed and what their bodyfat percentage was. Once we stepped on stage in a competition, the judges didn't ask what our weight and bf% was, they only looked at what we had built. The hogan videos are my #1 training aid. Without them, this project is impossible.
    The problem with trying to emulate every position inch by inch is that you are copying Hogan's results instead of his intentions. If you want to do an inch by inch replica, do it of Hogan's slow-motion videos. That way you are copying his INTENT inch by inch. To prove my point, watch the Coleman beach video and compare Hogan's slow-motion swings to his real swing. His positions are completely different due to the dynamics imposed by an orbiting club. This is also why reading his book is invaluable in my opinion. The entire book was based on intentions because Hogan knew that was the way to better golf, not trying to emulate positions.




    I do understand your point. But my goal is to come as close as I can to copying the real swing. If I were given a video of the Coleman Beach slow-mo, I could duplicate it, but if someone told me to take what I had duplicated, and speed it up into a regular swing, it probably would not work the same. The slow-mo vs regular speed has different feelings/dynamics/weight shifts/muscles associated.



    And don't get me wrong, Hogans book is definitely the golfers bible, but if I had a choice of using only the book, or only the video, the vid would win. And the Coleman slow-mo would be much easier to do, because of the reduced speed.
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  • SwingNVSwingNV Members  96WRX Points: 0Posts: 96
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    I do understand your point. But my goal is to come as close as I can to copying the real swing. If I were given a video of the Coleman Beach slow-mo, I could duplicate it, but if someone told me to take what I had duplicated, and speed it up into a regular swing, it probably would not work the same. The slow-mo vs regular speed has different feelings/dynamics/weight shifts/muscles associated.



    And don't get me wrong, Hogans book is definitely the golfers bible, but if I had a choice of using only the book, or only the video, the vid would win. And the Coleman slow-mo would be much easier to do, because of the reduced speed.




    No you don't understand my point. My point is that Hogan's slow-motion swing IS his real swing. He is trying to replicate his slow-motion technique in his actual swing, but cannot due to the inertia of a swinging clubhead. You cannot mimic his real swing positions by trying to get into those exact positions. You have to understand how the mass of the swinging clubhead affects your body. Hogan's slow motion swing was his way of counterbalancing that mass. If you try and mimic his slow-motion positions, your real swing positions will be much closer to what you are trying to achieve.
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  • Ben Hogan Swing ProjectBen Hogan Swing Project Members  970WRX Points: 0Posts: 970
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    SwingNV wrote:



    I do understand your point. But my goal is to come as close as I can to copying the real swing. If I were given a video of the Coleman Beach slow-mo, I could duplicate it, but if someone told me to take what I had duplicated, and speed it up into a regular swing, it probably would not work the same. The slow-mo vs regular speed has different feelings/dynamics/weight shifts/muscles associated.



    And don't get me wrong, Hogans book is definitely the golfers bible, but if I had a choice of using only the book, or only the video, the vid would win. And the Coleman slow-mo would be much easier to do, because of the reduced speed.




    No you don't understand my point. My point is that Hogan's slow-motion swing IS his real swing. He is trying to replicate his slow-motion technique in his actual swing, but cannot due to the inertia of a swinging clubhead. You cannot mimic his real swing positions by trying to get into those exact positions. You have to understand how the mass of the swinging clubhead affects your body. Hogan's slow motion swing was his way of counterbalancing that mass. If you try and mimic his slow-motion positions, your real swing positions will be much closer to what you are trying to achieve.




    Understood and well taken.
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  • IH82BOGEYIH82BOGEY Members  548WRX Points: 110Posts: 548 Golden Tee
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    I agree with SwingNV. IMOP, the best evidence of Mr. Hogan's intentions despite what is written or said is his slow motion concentration practice routine. These concentration drill positions obviously dont match his positions at full speed. I considered this idea some time ago and tried to copy his concentration excercise exactly. If you do, you will notice a very low plane on the concentration drill that rises when at speed between the elbow and shaft plane. The intracacies of his pivot though are still elusive. To me, he looks rear anchored in the concentration drill but more left side dominant at speed.
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  • Ben Hogan Swing ProjectBen Hogan Swing Project Members  970WRX Points: 0Posts: 970
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    SwingNV wrote:



    I do understand your point. But my goal is to come as close as I can to copying the real swing. If I were given a video of the Coleman Beach slow-mo, I could duplicate it, but if someone told me to take what I had duplicated, and speed it up into a regular swing, it probably would not work the same. The slow-mo vs regular speed has different feelings/dynamics/weight shifts/muscles associated.



    And don't get me wrong, Hogans book is definitely the golfers bible, but if I had a choice of using only the book, or only the video, the vid would win. And the Coleman slow-mo would be much easier to do, because of the reduced speed.




    No you don't understand my point. My point is that Hogan's slow-motion swing IS his real swing. He is trying to replicate his slow-motion technique in his actual swing, but cannot due to the inertia of a swinging clubhead. You cannot mimic his real swing positions by trying to get into those exact positions. You have to understand how the mass of the swinging clubhead affects your body. Hogan's slow motion swing was his way of counterbalancing that mass. If you try and mimic his slow-motion positions, your real swing positions will be much closer to what you are trying to achieve.




    Understood and well taken.




    SwingNV, you have sparked some of the areas of my basla ganglia! This video on the beach is OUTSTANDING! I notice some vvveeeeeeeeeeeeeery intersting things here that are super-useful!

    [media]
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  • SwingNVSwingNV Members  96WRX Points: 0Posts: 96
    Joined:  edited Aug 9, 2011 #39
    I'm glad I could help.



    I had a recent goal of trying to get my right forearm perpendicular to the ground during transition and keeping it vertical well into the downswing. I wasn't even worried about hitting a ball, I just wanted to see if I could physically do it. Well, I couldn't until I started working on Hogan's slow motion drill. After a few days of practice I videoed a swing where I kept my right forearm perpendicular to the ground for 4 frames into the downswing. So I'm a big fan of Hogans slow-mo drill.
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  • dapdap Members  2618WRX Points: 185Posts: 2,618 Titanium Tees
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    It's not so much doing the swing in slow motion but rather the swing intentions.Very often you need to grossly exaggerate a movement in order just to get a small difference to the actual swing.If you look at Hogan DTL doing his slow motion swing,he is a lot more underplane than he is in his actual swing.



    In any case my opinion is that trying to copy a swing move for move is futile,whether it be Hogan or another player.None of us are built the same and like finger prints,golf swings are all different.Some might be more alike but will still be different studied under the microscope.You might be of similar height to Hogan but your range of flexibility and movement will be different.You might be more flexible in the hip area but Hogan might be more flexible in the wrist and shoulder area and this is going to show up in your full swing.Range of movement is going to be different and this will dictate how your swing will look.You simply may not achieve some of Hogan's positions even if you knew what he did,real or feel because of physical limitations and differences which will show up in the full swing.



    But by all means try.You have six lifetimes to do it.
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  • grahlergrahler Banned  759WRX Points: 0Posts: 759
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    Hogan took a lifetime developing his move and he's more talented than any of us and this was basically his main focus in life.

    I have to say +1000 to above posts about intent and dynamics-the forces involved in his swing are strong and counterintuitive.

    An awful lot of folks have tried-none have succeeded.
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  • drewspindrewspin Charter Members  2996WRX Points: 1Posts: 2,996 Titanium Tees
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    I think its admirable to try this and you'll learn a lot in the process.



    With respect to the transition and the process of laying the club off, I think Schlee has some very good insights about how the hands work, especially the right hand. Whether he got those insights directly from Hogan or not, I don't know.
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  • Ben Hogan Swing ProjectBen Hogan Swing Project Members  970WRX Points: 0Posts: 970
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    drewspin wrote:


    I think its admirable to try this and you'll learn a lot in the process.



    With respect to the transition and the process of laying the club off, I think Schlee has some very good insights about how the hands work, especially the right hand. Whether he got those insights directly from Hogan or not, I don't know.




    Yahhh, thanks for the motivating words drewspin. I've studied/read/watched a lot of Tom Bertrands ideas. They all make sense. I especially like the "laying the club off" video. When i get to this phase of the project, I'll see if my feeling/movement matches his theory.



    And about the "learning a lot": I've learned soooooo much up to this point, and I'm just easing my toe into the shark-infested waters lol.
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  • svsvincenzosvsvincenzo Members  1822WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,822
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    drewspin wrote:


    I think its admirable to try this and you'll learn a lot in the process.



    With respect to the transition and the process of laying the club off, I think Schlee has some very good insights about how the hands work, especially the right hand. Whether he got those insights directly from Hogan or not, I don't know.




    What did Schlee say about the hands?
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  • drewspindrewspin Charter Members  2996WRX Points: 1Posts: 2,996 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Aug 10, 2011 #46

    drewspin wrote:


    I think its admirable to try this and you'll learn a lot in the process.



    With respect to the transition and the process of laying the club off, I think Schlee has some very good insights about how the hands work, especially the right hand. Whether he got those insights directly from Hogan or not, I don't know.




    Yahhh, thanks for the motivating words drewspin. I've studied/read/watched a lot of Tom Bertrands ideas. They all make sense. I especially like the "laying the club off" video. When i get to this phase of the project, I'll see if my feeling/movement matches his theory.



    And about the "learning a lot": I've learned soooooo much up to this point, and I'm just easing my toe into the shark-infested waters lol.




    FYI - John Gustin got pretty darned good with the Hogan Swing:









    What Schlee says in Maximum Golf about how the right hand works vis a vis the left which is what I am talking about. That is NOT in the video you mentioned.



    I've seen some photos that show exactly WHERE Hogan took out the cupped left wrist. It wasn't at the top of the backswing or how he layed off of the club. The supination Ravielli drawings in 5L appear to make it a natural progression or rolling of the wrist, but in reality, it was a fast supinating action at the bottom that he learned.



    Video of the day is generally too slow to show it happening, but in still images, you can see he carried the cupped left wrist down to past waist high, then did his supination move BEFORE the wrist goes into palmar flexion.



    The cupped wrist is carried down to the bottom.



    Good luck.
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  • drewspindrewspin Charter Members  2996WRX Points: 1Posts: 2,996 Titanium Tees
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    drewspin wrote:


    I think its admirable to try this and you'll learn a lot in the process.



    With respect to the transition and the process of laying the club off, I think Schlee has some very good insights about how the hands work, especially the right hand. Whether he got those insights directly from Hogan or not, I don't know.




    What did Schlee say about the hands?




    In the book he says:



    "Leverage magnifies power. In fact, you

    have three magnificent levers with your

    new grip : a compound, third class lever

    in your right wrist; a massive lever in

    your right elbow and a final lever in

    your right shoulder.



    Acorrect grip allows you to harness

    this activated power of the lever system

    then let it release at the right time to

    your target."



    In the video, he is a bit more descriptive about the role of the right hand and fingers and the role of the left hand at the top. I'll post the exact quote from the video tonight.



    The essence of it was that the fingers of the right hand can work back in toward the body, you can see this in Hogan footage as he deepens his wrist angles at the top.
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  • Ben Hogan Swing ProjectBen Hogan Swing Project Members  970WRX Points: 0Posts: 970
    Joined:  edited Aug 10, 2011 #48
    drewspin wrote:


    drewspin wrote:


    I think its admirable to try this and you'll learn a lot in the process.



    With respect to the transition and the process of laying the club off, I think Schlee has some very good insights about how the hands work, especially the right hand. Whether he got those insights directly from Hogan or not, I don't know.




    Yahhh, thanks for the motivating words drewspin. I've studied/read/watched a lot of Tom Bertrands ideas. They all make sense. I especially like the "laying the club off" video. When i get to this phase of the project, I'll see if my feeling/movement matches his theory.



    And about the "learning a lot": I've learned soooooo much up to this point, and I'm just easing my toe into the shark-infested waters lol.




    FYI - John Gustin got pretty darned good with the Hogan Swing:



    [url="





    What Schlee says in Maximum Golf about how the right hand works vis a vis the left which is what I am talking about. That is NOT in the video you mentioned.



    I've seen some photos that show exactly WHERE Hogan took out the cupped left wrist. It wasn't at the top of the backswing or how he layed off of the club. The supination Ravielli drawings in 5L appear to make it a natural progression or rolling of the wrist, but in reality, it was a fast supinating action at the bottom that he learned.



    Video of the day is generally too slow to show it happening, but in still images, you can see he carried the cupped left wrist down to past waist high, then did his supination move BEFORE the wrist goes into palmar flexion.



    The cupped wrist is carried down to the bottom.



    Good luck.




    Yaaah, I understand your point about the left wrist in the slo-mo video; we can both plainly see that Hogan has it cupped till right before impact, but I'm not so sure the uncupping is happening as we see it in the slow version. Your Honor, my supporting evidence is that I played around with something when I went out for my golf last Saturday. I know I'm not supposed to be focusing on anything but the address right now, but I just had to try this one thing. I made up a swing-rythm-saying in my mind of "Left-cup up, uncup, thrust". So during the takeaway, i was "left-cup up". Right BEFORE and DURING the transition, I was "uncup," which is uncupping of the left. And during the impact, I was "thrusting" with my right leg. I reiterate.........I was uncupping before and during the transition. Using my new move, felt like I should be hitting the ball hard left, and in theory, if I am uncupping, or closing the club that early, left field bleachers should be my home. The weird thing about it, ALL shots were direct down the stinkin fairway. The harder I did the Left-cup up, uncup, thrust, the better the shot was. So as a test, I tried uncupping just as the slo-mo Hogan vid shows us, ........., but every ball was sliced like a thick, tart, freshly peeled orange. My theory: because the club wasn't closing fast enough. Solution: Start closing it earlier.



    My playing partners also noticed that I was crushing it off the tee and that I was in the fairway all of the time. I didn't tell them about what I was doing because we had $55 up as a wager, and the trophy, which I won. I wasn't filming that day, so I don't know how it looked, but my guess is that because the left side is moving so fast and gravitational forces are what what keep the club from closing too fast. When I officially get to the transition stage of the project, I'll compare what I tried this past weekend. It could be nowhere related to matching Hogans move, but it sure was fun taking thier money! Can't wait to get out there again and make them mad.



    Your Honor, the defense requests to approach. In Hogan's slo-mo swing on the beach, what if he had uncupped the left wrist DURING the transition.............? The club would have been closed too early, and by the time it got to the ball, contact would have been made with the back of the club. The defense rests..........for now. (The court gasps and Jurors are now squirming in their seats).
    Posted:
  • Ben Hogan Swing ProjectBen Hogan Swing Project Members  970WRX Points: 0Posts: 970
    Joined:  edited Aug 10, 2011 #49
    drewspin wrote:
    drewspin wrote:
    I think its admirable to try this and you'll learn a lot in the process. With respect to the transition and the process of laying the club off, I think Schlee has some very good insights about how the hands work, especially the right hand. Whether he got those insights directly from Hogan or not, I don't know.
    Yahhh, thanks for the motivating words drewspin. I've studied/read/watched a lot of Tom Bertrands ideas. They all make sense. I especially like the "laying the club off" video. When i get to this phase of the project, I'll see if my feeling/movement matches his theory. And about the "learning a lot": I've learned soooooo much up to this point, and I'm just easing my toe into the shark-infested waters lol.
    FYI - John Gustin got pretty darned good with the Hogan Swing: [url=" What Schlee says in Maximum Golf about how the right hand works vis a vis the left which is what I am talking about. That is NOT in the video you mentioned. I've seen some photos that show exactly WHERE Hogan took out the cupped left wrist. It wasn't at the top of the backswing or how he layed off of the club. The supination Ravielli drawings in 5L appear to make it a natural progression or rolling of the wrist, but in reality, it was a fast supinating action at the bottom that he learned. Video of the day is generally too slow to show it happening, but in still images, you can see he carried the cupped left wrist down to past waist high, then did his supination move BEFORE the wrist goes into palmar flexion. The cupped wrist is carried down to the bottom. Good luck.
    Yaaah, I understand your point about the left wrist in the slo-mo video; we can both plainly see that Hogan has it cupped till right before impact, but I'm not so sure the uncupping is happening as we see it in the slow version. Your Honor, my supporting evidence is that I played around with something when I went out for my golf last Saturday. I know I'm not supposed to be focusing on anything but the address right now, but I just had to try this one thing. I made up a swing-rythm-saying in my mind of "Left-cup up, uncup, thrust". So during the takeaway, i was "left-cup up". Right BEFORE and DURING the transition, I was "uncup," which is uncupping of the left. And during the impact, I was "thrusting" with my right leg. I reiterate.........I was uncupping before and during the transition. Using my new move, felt like I should be hitting the ball hard left, and in theory, if I am uncupping, or closing the club that early, left field bleachers should be my home. The weird thing about it, ALL shots were direct down the stinkin fairway. The harder I did the Left-cup up, uncup, thrust, the better the shot was. So as a test, I tried uncupping just as the slo-mo Hogan vid shows us, ........., but every ball was sliced like a thick, tart, freshly peeled orange. My theory: because the club wasn't closing fast enough. Solution: Start closing it earlier. My playing partners also noticed that I was crushing it off the tee and that I was in the fairway all of the time. I didn't tell them about what I was doing because we had $55 up as a wager, and the trophy, which I won. I wasn't filming that day, so I don't know how it looked, but my guess is that because the left side is moving so fast and gravitational forces are what what keep the club from closing too fast. When I officially get to the transition stage of the project, I'll compare what I tried this past weekend. It could be nowhere related to matching Hogans move, but it sure was fun taking thier money! Can't wait to get out there again and make them mad. Your Honor, the defense requests to approach. In Hogan's slo-mo swing on the beach, what if he had uncupped the left wrist DURING the transition.............? The club would have been closed too early, and by the time it got to the ball, contact would have been made with the back of the club. The defense rests..........for now. (The court gasps and Jurors are now squirming in their seats).
    Also, if you don't have Hogans agressive left hip type of movement, uncupping at the top won't help....you would probably hook everything. And again, uncupping at the top is a FEELING of mine, and that feeling is that I am uncupping as hard as possible, but video would probably show the uncupping happening right before impact. I am afraid to turn the camera on and record it...........I may shock myself and prove exactly what I am theorizing........then I would get all excited and lose sleep! image/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> Note to self: Focus on the stinking address right now......Stop lookin around the corner!!! If you keep driving, getting around the corner is inevitable!
    Posted:
  • dapdap Members  2618WRX Points: 185Posts: 2,618 Titanium Tees
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    A lot of people seem to think Hogan cupped his left wrist at the top for every shot he hit.He only cupped it when he needed to fade the ball or to make sure he took the left side of the fairway out of play.What about if he needed to draw one?There are plenty of examples where Hogan's left wrist was closer to flat at the top.



    Hogan was a shot maker,not a one swing robot like people asssume.Not every swing he made was the same.
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  • Ben Hogan Swing ProjectBen Hogan Swing Project Members  970WRX Points: 0Posts: 970
    Joined:  edited Aug 10, 2011 #51
    dap wrote:


    A lot of people seem to think Hogan cupped his left wrist at the top for every shot he hit.He only cupped it when he needed to fade the ball or to make sure he took the left side of the fairway out of play.What about if he needed to draw one?There are plenty of examples where Hogan's left wrist was closer to flat at the top.



    Hogan was a shot maker,not a one swing robot like people asssume.Not every swing he made was the same.






    Yahhh, I've also noticed the "sometimes flat, sometimes cupped" in his videos. I'm working on the cupped version. I also have thoughts on if Hogans cupped swing could compete in todays game, but that's probably for another thread; I don't think he would have done too well as far as winning. (Please don't throw too many rocks at me). My assumption is based on data of the top 10 money earners on all the tours, and the top 10 winners on all the tours..............they all appear to have a flat left wrist at the top.
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  • Ben Hogan Swing ProjectBen Hogan Swing Project Members  970WRX Points: 0Posts: 970
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    Just got off the phone with my playing partner. He says "what if you do happen to figure this thing out and actually match the Hogan swing, but can't get the ball off the tee??" I told him that I would call the Ben Hogan Swing Project a success and then start the Make Contact Like Ben Hogan Project lolololol!!!
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  • Ben Hogan Swing ProjectBen Hogan Swing Project Members  970WRX Points: 0Posts: 970
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    drewspin wrote:
    drewspin wrote:
    I think its admirable to try this and you'll learn a lot in the process. With respect to the transition and the process of laying the club off, I think Schlee has some very good insights about how the hands work, especially the right hand. Whether he got those insights directly from Hogan or not, I don't know.
    Yahhh, thanks for the motivating words drewspin. I've studied/read/watched a lot of Tom Bertrands ideas. They all make sense. I especially like the "laying the club off" video. When i get to this phase of the project, I'll see if my feeling/movement matches his theory. And about the "learning a lot": I've learned soooooo much up to this point, and I'm just easing my toe into the shark-infested waters lol.
    FYI - John Gustin got pretty darned good with the Hogan Swing: [url=" What Schlee says in Maximum Golf about how the right hand works vis a vis the left which is what I am talking about. That is NOT in the video you mentioned. I've seen some photos that show exactly WHERE Hogan took out the cupped left wrist. It wasn't at the top of the backswing or how he layed off of the club. The supination Ravielli drawings in 5L appear to make it a natural progression or rolling of the wrist, but in reality, it was a fast supinating action at the bottom that he learned. Video of the day is generally too slow to show it happening, but in still images, you can see he carried the cupped left wrist down to past waist high, then did his supination move BEFORE the wrist goes into palmar flexion. The cupped wrist is carried down to the bottom. Good luck.
    Yaaah, I understand your point about the left wrist in the slo-mo video; we can both plainly see that Hogan has it cupped till right before impact, but I'm not so sure the uncupping is happening as we see it in the slow version. Your Honor, my supporting evidence is that I played around with something when I went out for my golf last Saturday. I know I'm not supposed to be focusing on anything but the address right now, but I just had to try this one thing. I made up a swing-rythm-saying in my mind of "Left-cup up, uncup, thrust". So during the takeaway, i was "left-cup up". Right BEFORE and DURING the transition, I was "uncup," which is uncupping of the left. And during the impact, I was "thrusting" with my right leg. I reiterate.........I was uncupping before and during the transition. Using my new move, felt like I should be hitting the ball hard left, and in theory, if I am uncupping, or closing the club that early, left field bleachers should be my home. The weird thing about it, ALL shots were direct down the stinkin fairway. The harder I did the Left-cup up, uncup, thrust, the better the shot was. So as a test, I tried uncupping just as the slo-mo Hogan vid shows us, ........., but every ball was sliced like a thick, tart, freshly peeled orange. My theory: because the club wasn't closing fast enough. Solution: Start closing it earlier. My playing partners also noticed that I was crushing it off the tee and that I was in the fairway all of the time. I didn't tell them about what I was doing because we had $55 up as a wager, and the trophy, which I won. I wasn't filming that day, so I don't know how it looked, but my guess is that because the left side is moving so fast and gravitational forces are what what keep the club from closing too fast. When I officially get to the transition stage of the project, I'll compare what I tried this past weekend. It could be nowhere related to matching Hogans move, but it sure was fun taking thier money! Can't wait to get out there again and make them mad. Your Honor, the defense requests to approach. In Hogan's slo-mo swing on the beach, what if he had uncupped the left wrist DURING the transition.............? The club would have been closed too early, and by the time it got to the ball, contact would have been made with the back of the club. The defense rests..........for now. (The court gasps and Jurors are now squirming in their seats).
    Also, if you don't have Hogans agressive left hip type of movement, uncupping at the top won't help....you would probably hook everything. And again, uncupping at the top is a FEELING of mine, and that feeling is that I am uncupping as hard as possible, but video would probably show the uncupping happening right before impact. I am afraid to turn the camera on and record it...........I may shock myself and prove exactly what I am theorizing........then I would get all excited and lose sleep! image/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> Note to self: Focus on the stinking address right now......Stop lookin around the corner!!! If you keep driving, getting around the corner is inevitable!




    Your Honor, the defense needs to approach again......I have possible evidence that may bring some clarity to the case, or it could confuse the **** out of the jury and get me thrown out of here with a mistrial. Ok.....so...........refer to my "uncup during transition" move. One of Hogans signature moves is when the club is at the top during transition, and it shifts backward/downward; how is this shift happening? It can't just shift/drop on its own. There are no mini Hogan people pulling on it. Could it be dropping because of the "uncup during transition" move?



    If there is doubt let the driver out! If it doesn't fit, tee it up and let it rip!
    Posted:
  • markponimarkponi Members  580WRX Points: 0Posts: 580
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    Hogan's laid off move is not a result of his wrist motion. I think it's a combination of 800 things that were unique to him. It has never, ever, ever been duplicated. Heaviest clubs in history. Fast backswing. weak right hand grip, massive change in direction. I personally think this laid off move is a result of him getting the weight of the massive clubhead against his index finger pressure point and his extreme pulling (or swinging) motion out and down toward the ball (TGM). Only Hogan was athletic enough, fast enough, strong enough, flexible enough, used heaviest clubs. No one has matched him in IN THE HISTORY OF GOLF in all these respects. Everyone who kinda maybe looks like Hogan is putting the club into those positions with no dynamics or float loading (sergio, fowler).



    The cupping and uncupping to me is an unnatural movement that should occur dynamically.



    Posted:
  • ej002ej002 Unregistered  5129WRX Points: 3Posts: 5,129 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #55
    drewspin wrote:


    What Schlee says in Maximum Golf about how the right hand works vis a vis the left which is what I am talking about. That is NOT in the video you mentioned.



    I've seen some photos that show exactly WHERE Hogan took out the cupped left wrist. It wasn't at the top of the backswing or how he layed off of the club. The supination Ravielli drawings in 5L appear to make it a natural progression or rolling of the wrist, but in reality, it was a fast supinating action at the bottom that he learned.



    Video of the day is generally too slow to show it happening, but in still images, you can see he carried the cupped left wrist down to past waist high, then did his supination move BEFORE the wrist goes into palmar flexion.



    The cupped wrist is carried down to the bottom.



    Good luck.






    Those Bertrand videos get me riled up. I think they are total B.S. especially about the "uncupping" move at the top to lay the cup off. When Hogan did cup (not all the time), he held it. Physics allows the clubhead to drop and the face to square. When the wrists drop and toe catches up, the cup has to release. It is not rocket science.



    As to Bertrand's supination move of the left forearm - I think that was also a reaction to Hogan's pivot, and not a conscious move on his part. He hit hard with his pivot, the arm has to move (again) when the club comes out.



    To the OP. Don't get all caught up in the wrist supination nonsense. Hogan said that himself. Worry about the pivot for now, deal with that minutia later, or not at all.



    Read the Mark's post above. I think he is correct. 800 things contributed to those positions. It cannot be forcefully replicated. I just happened as a result. I have seen guys with somwhat similar actions (unforced), but still nobody is ever really close to Hogan IMO.
    Posted:
  • Ben Hogan Swing ProjectBen Hogan Swing Project Members  970WRX Points: 0Posts: 970
    Joined:  edited Aug 10, 2011 #56
    markponi wrote:


    Hogan's laid off move is not a result of his wrist motion. I think it's a combination of 800 things that were unique to him. It has never, ever, ever been duplicated. Heaviest clubs in history. Fast backswing. weak right hand grip, massive change in direction. I personally think this laid off move is a result of him getting the weight of the massive clubhead against his index finger pressure point and his extreme pulling (or swinging) motion out and down toward the ball (TGM). Only Hogan was athletic enough, fast enough, strong enough, flexible enough, used heaviest clubs. No one has matched him in IN THE HISTORY OF GOLF in all these respects. Everyone who kinda maybe looks like Hogan is putting the club into those positions with no dynamics or float loading (sergio, fowler).



    The cupping and uncupping to me is an unnatural movement that should occur dynamically.








    I submit into evidence [url="

    [media]



    When everyone gets home tonight, get a club up to the top of your swing. Cup your wrist as much as humanly possible. Make sure the face is at 45 degree angle in relation to the ball. Now have someone stand behind you and ROTATE THE CLUB CLOSED (the face should point to the sky).



    What do your hands and wrists do when the assistant rotates the club closed???? As I am sitting here at my desk visualizing, i think the left wrist would have to uncup, and the right wrist would cup some more, or kinda rotate clockwise in relation to the ball.



    Now do this same rotation as you are transitioning.



    Also, I have not validated this video. Not sure the club is really doing this or if someone has edited it to look this way.



    I will have to get one of my sons or daughters to help me, as my wife is on strike. She is tired of being my golf prop.



    In response to "It has never, ever, ever been duplicated": Hogan had 2 legs, 2 arms, 2 feet, 10 fingers, etc.........(.I'm not sure about the toes though). But any person that has those same items can duplicate the swing. Now, If Hogan had 3 arms and everyone else had only 2, duplication would definitely be impossible, until I started a project called How To Grow a Third Arm Like Hogan.
    Posted:
  • MizunoJoeMizunoJoe Members  1000WRX Points: 1Posts: 1,000 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #57
    drewspin wrote:




    FYI - John Gustin got pretty darned good with the Hogan Swing:








    For starters, the backswing is WAY too short, which makes everything after that wrong. Hogan went past parallel with the shaft entirely behind him as he transitioned in both the Power Golf and 5L swings. Watch and learn from the greatest golf video of all time.



    Posted:
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  • markponimarkponi Members  580WRX Points: 0Posts: 580
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    I'm not even saying it doesn't happen and these guys are right, Hogan had a lot of different shots. I'm saying that hogan didn't do anything to make this happen. His hands were clamps. Could be the club weight and transition force uncups them. By no means did he uncup them using the top most muscles of the forearm. The video is probably accurate, but I can assure you that he didn't do that using those muscles in the upper forearm. If it uncups its because his core is changing directions, his pitchy elbow acts as a wall that the wrists, shaft and clubhead respond to. I've tried to replicate this but I can't control the club, not strong enough. His springs the mothereffing shi*t out of the shaft during transition. Bertrand puts approximately 0 spring into the shaft. Slicefixers students spring the shaft in a similar way but they just aren't as powerful as Ben...Martinez throws the club head behind him as his intent is toward the target but it isn't the same thing as hogan...but as we said before, who is...(by the way, I highly admire both methods!!!)



    There is a great thread on here that talks about the arms coming over the top and the club. It's called the purpose of the downloop. I think it may have some merit and contributes to Hogan's unique transition.



    Your swing in the first video you posted looks like Jerry Kelly's, not Hogan's. I am not saying this to discourage you, just to inform you. The shaft is steep on the takeaway and only shallows during transition. Hogan's pulling of the grip seems to do this. If you consciously close the club face with your hands/wrists/forearms at transition, you'll just close the clubhead and it probably won't look like hogan from a visual and a dynamic perspective. But...keep at it, I'm not a hater...hope you continue to post comments and video and improve.
    Posted:
  • Ben Hogan Swing ProjectBen Hogan Swing Project Members  970WRX Points: 0Posts: 970
    Joined:  edited Aug 10, 2011 #59
    markponi wrote:


    I'm not even saying it doesn't happen and these guys are right, Hogan had a lot of different shots. I'm saying that hogan didn't do anything to make this happen. His hands were clamps. Could be the club weight and transition force uncups them. By no means did he uncup them using the top most muscles of the forearm. The video is probably accurate, but I can assure you that he didn't do that using those muscles in the upper forearm. If it uncups its because his core is changing directions, his pitchy elbow acts as a wall that the wrists, shaft and clubhead respond to. I've tried to replicate this but I can't control the club, not strong enough. His springs the mothereffing shi*t out of the shaft during transition. Bertrand puts approximately 0 spring into the shaft. Slicefixers students spring the shaft in a similar way but they just aren't as powerful as Ben...Martinez throws the club head behind him as his intent is toward the target but it isn't the same thing as hogan...but as we said before, who is...(by the way, I highly admire both methods!!!)



    There is a great thread on here that talks about the arms coming over the top and the club. It's called the purpose of the downloop. I think it may have some merit and contributes to Hogan's unique transition.



    Your swing in the first video you posted looks like Jerry Kelly's, not Hogan's. I am not saying this to discourage you, just to inform you. The shaft is steep on the takeaway and only shallows during transition. Hogan's pulling of the grip seems to do this. If you consciously close the club face with your hands/wrists/forearms at transition, you'll just close the clubhead and it probably won't look like hogan from a visual and a dynamic perspective. But...keep at it, I'm not a hater...hope you continue to post comments and video and improve.




    I'll search for the downloop thread. No discouragement taken. I need as many trained eyes picking as many missed details as possible in order to get this swing right. Regarding my Take 1 swing, I know it's nowhere near Hogan. My goal is to get it super close by Take 100. Its been almost 2 weeks since the Take 1 post. I have no idea when Take 2 will be done. Jerry Kelly has a cooooool looking swing, but mine is also nowhere near him. i also like the Jerry Barber one too.



    [media]





    And my favorite part of your post is "springs the mothereffing shi*t out of the shaft" !!!!!!!LOLOLOL This outa be a permanent quote somewhere!!!! I may need your permission to make this part of my signature lol! Hey....one of my sub-goals could be for someone to see my swing and say "MAN...Did you see that guy!!!! He sprung the mothereffing shi*t out of the shaft!!" (boy, I hope my kids never read this.....I would never be able to explain the rough language)
    Posted:
  • StafferStaffer Members  325WRX Points: 0Posts: 325
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    Yahhh, I've also noticed the "sometimes flat, sometimes cupped" in his videos. I'm working on the cupped version. I also have thoughts on if Hogans cupped swing could compete in todays game, but that's probably for another thread; I don't think he would have done too well as far as winning. (Please don't throw too many rocks at me). My assumption is based on data of the top 10 money earners on all the tours, and the top 10 winners on all the tours..............they all appear to have a flat left wrist at the top.




    Kind of funny is it not. The 3 greatest golfers of modern times, Hogan, Nicklaus, Woods. Not exactly card-board copies of each others swings. All with features that could be considered "errors" when found in a beginner.



    In one year, Ben Hogan won every single tournament he played in. Including 3 majors.





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  • markponimarkponi Members  580WRX Points: 0Posts: 580
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    markponi wrote:


    I'm not even saying it doesn't happen and these guys are right, Hogan had a lot of different shots. I'm saying that hogan didn't do anything to make this happen. His hands were clamps. Could be the club weight and transition force uncups them. By no means did he uncup them using the top most muscles of the forearm. The video is probably accurate, but I can assure you that he didn't do that using those muscles in the upper forearm. If it uncups its because his core is changing directions, his pitchy elbow acts as a wall that the wrists, shaft and clubhead respond to. I've tried to replicate this but I can't control the club, not strong enough. His springs the mothereffing shi*t out of the shaft during transition. Bertrand puts approximately 0 spring into the shaft. Slicefixers students spring the shaft in a similar way but they just aren't as powerful as Ben...Martinez throws the club head behind him as his intent is toward the target but it isn't the same thing as hogan...but as we said before, who is...(by the way, I highly admire both methods!!!)



    There is a great thread on here that talks about the arms coming over the top and the club. It's called the purpose of the downloop. I think it may have some merit and contributes to Hogan's unique transition.



    Your swing in the first video you posted looks like Jerry Kelly's, not Hogan's. I am not saying this to discourage you, just to inform you. The shaft is steep on the takeaway and only shallows during transition. Hogan's pulling of the grip seems to do this. If you consciously close the club face with your hands/wrists/forearms at transition, you'll just close the clubhead and it probably won't look like hogan from a visual and a dynamic perspective. But...keep at it, I'm not a hater...hope you continue to post comments and video and improve.




    I'll search for the downloop thread. No discouragement taken. I need as many trained eyes picking as many missed details as possible in order to get this swing right. Regarding my Take 1 swing, I know it's nowhere near Hogan. My goal is to get it super close by Take 100. Its been almost 2 weeks since the Take 1 post. I have no idea when Take 2 will be done. Jerry Kelly has a cooooool looking swing, but mine is also nowhere near him. i also like the Jerry Barber one too.



    [media]





    And my favorite part of your post is "springs the mothereffing shi*t out of the shaft" !!!!!!!LOLOLOL This outa be a permanent quote somewhere!!!! I may need your permission to make this part of my signature lol! Hey....one of my sub-goals could be for someone to see my swing and say "MAN...Did you see that guy!!!! He sprung the mothereffing shi*t out of the shaft!!" (boy, I hope my kids never read this.....I would never be able to explain the rough language)






    Feel free to use it any time you want...just cite some dude named markponi who posts too much on the golfwrx hogan forum and acts like he's an expert. I only play one on TV



    Springing the shaft is a critical component to all solid ball strikers. Hogan flexed the shaft so much, the ball didn't have a chance vs. the club shaft with that much mass/acceleration driving the arm/shaft/club unit.



    Oh, and I hate Jerry Kelly's swing...but he's also a multimillionaire and I recently got a multi dollar raise.
    Posted:
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