Beginning my try at duplicating Hogan's Swing

[nitefisher111]

double post

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1314320543' post='3519658']
Some may think I am being negative regarding this project but I am just being realistic.Those who are being supportive are probably thinking the same thing I am but are afraid to say it.

I am also sure there are some Hogan fans out there who might even find it an insult to Hogan that an amateur player has the misguided belief that he can clone one of the greatest swings and talent of all time using a video camera and trigonometry but are just biting their tongue at the moment.
[/quote]

Clone is a strong word. I like to use "see how close I can come to matching the Hogan move, dynamic, and swing."

Questions for all non-believers:
1. If Hogan walked into a bunker and set his feet at address, leaving footprints, could you walk in behind him and put your feet in the exact same spot? If there are any "yes" votes, I will keep working at the project.


Dap, this project has nothing to do with insults, or amateur status, or pro status, or great swings.........it's as simple as:
1. Put a video of Hogan on the screen.
2. Press play............once he has moved the club 2 inches, press pause.
3. Put a video of my swing right next to his, press play and once my club moves 2 inches, hit pause.
4. Did my movement match that of Hogan's? Is my club in approximately in the same position? If yes, goto step 9. If no, goto step 5.
5. turn camera back on an make same 2" movement again, making a milimeter-sized adjustment to it to hopefully get my position to match.
6. Load both persons back on screen.
7. Does my movement match Hogans? If yes goto step 9. If no, goto step 1.
8. END
9. yell loudly "YEEEEESSS!!! FINALLY GOT IT", then proceed to next phase of swing.

I have no clue how long this process will take.

And oh yeah, once I get to step 9, do this movement 100 fintillion times until it becomes muscle memory, because as I've learned over the past month, I can think I have somehing figured out, then I go and eat dinner, come back to try the same move, and find out my muscles have alzhiemers.

[dap]

BHSP,really it's not about non-believing.It's about being realistic.It's not directed at you personally as I don't think anyone could do what you are trying to do.Many have tried and failed so you can understand why people are skeptical.

You have not posted this blog on www.Istartedplayinggolflastweek.com

You are not going to dress like Hogan,have a one planeish type of swing and get lots of ooh's and ahh's and wow you look just like Hogan comments.The crowd here is harder to please.

I think you could capture the essence of his swing using his principles but in a swing that is unique to you but I still maintain it is futile to copy his every movement inch for inch.

Even guys like Martinez,Spider and Sevam1 whom many people regard as having very Hogan like swings do not match him inch for inch.

Having said all this,golf should be fun and if pursuing this goal is fun for you,then please proceed.I will provide my humble input from time to time if you will still accept it after everything I have said.LOL

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='nitefisher111' timestamp='1314326572' post='3519976']
[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1314317367' post='3519514']
[quote name='markponi' timestamp='1314307792' post='3519174']
But...having flat lies will cause (or should cause) your body to subconsciously adjust and shallow out the swing.
[/quote]

At some point, I'll definitely get a club bent to 5 degrees flat and 5 degrees open and experiment with it.
[/quote]

I think you are underestimating the importance of the equipment specs.

You will not be able to duplicate Hogan's release if your clubs are too upright. Your individual specs may vary as arm and torso length could affect this but you will 100% certainly need to go flatter than standard, likely 4-5* flat. If it were me, the first thing I would do is get a club (or all of them) bent 4-5* flat)

One thing that is not talked about much is how open Hogan's clubs were. Many people have tried to copy his swing but I don't recall any of them doing so with clubs that were bent 5* (or whatever they were) open. Hogan likely did this to help keep the face open and help tame his hook. To match Hogan's dynamic pivot, rotational speed and impact position, imho you may need to learn to hit the ball with clubs bent wide open.

I don't have any specific thoughts on the weight of the club other than to say his clubs were probably heavy and not just in the head. I know Martinzez has experimented with this and believes it's an important detail.

Keep pluggin' away...I'll plan to follow you progress and hope you do well with this!
[/quote]


BHP, you're still the decision-maker on this, but if it will help (really, I hope it does), +3 on above posts of markponi and nitefisher. Something I hope can convince you... If you've got 5degree flatter lies, you'll be forced to adopt Hogsn's grip (and the accompanying look to it), otherwise you'll have to reach out your hands and arms to make the lie angle match the ground, which is clearly unhogan-looking. So, you'll be forced to adopt Hogan's actual grip and look (butt of grip trapped under the left palm pad). This will increase the angle/bend between clubshaft and left arm, and you can now let your hands get closer to your body with the lie (which is 5deg flat) aligned flat to the ground. You'll surely look like Hogan just in setup.

But this also affects the look/vusual of waggle and takeaway. Why? Because the more flat the lie is, hence the nearer the hands is with your body, hence the more angle between clubshaft and left arm is, the more the clubhead will travel away from ball horizontally (roll/open) and vertically (ccck) for a given turn or roll of the left hand (grip weakness or strongness plays a part as well, needless to say), EDIT: with the clubface opening at a slower rate. Conversely, if your left arm-clubshaft angle is straightish, for a given turn or roll of your left hand, the clubhead will not go as far and as high from the ball, plus the clubface opens at a faster rate so much so that by the time your clubhead is at 9 o'clock (from point of view of onlooker/caddy view), your clubface is so wide open and your left hand is so much turned/rolled/pronated---not Hogan-looking at all.

And how to do these are ALL in there in that book that you avoid.. So, want me to quote/force-feed/read em again?... Lol

But whatever you decide keep going, I'm genuinely looking forward to your progress and success...and IMO we will also learn a lot...if mechanics will lead you/us to look like Hogan, the converse is true as well--making you/us look like Hogan will as well lead us to his mechanics...

When I have time to go back to 5L I'll force-feed you...lol

[svsvincenzo]

Darn, yeah....for decades, golfer's have been trying to focus on JUST the mechanics of Hogan..so that may be the reason nobody looks Hoganesque for decades..as in nada! Now, if you focus on the LOOKS first priority, with the help of mechanics at 2nd priority, heck you may succeed! Yeah, don't listen to me! Go visual first and tell us how you do it!...lol Your method may very well be the way, the truth and the Hogan! Lol

[dap]

Also some very good points about equipment.I believe Hogan's clubs were not bent 5 degrees flat,they were 8 degrees.

It is very naive to think Hogan messed around with his clubs just for the heck of it and he could just grab any club off Nicklaus and make the same swing and it wouldn't matter a hoot.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1314351030' post='3520401']
Also some very good points about equipment.I believe Hogan's clubs were not bent 5 degrees flat,they were 8 degrees.

It is very naive to think Hogan messed around with his clubs just for the heck of it and he could just grab any club off Nicklaus and make the same swing and it wouldn't matter a hoot.
[/quote]

Agreed that the equipment would have an effect on the trajectory and flight pattern of the ball, as well as the setup/address.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1314341497' post='3520342']
Darn, yeah....for decades, golfer's have been trying to focus on JUST the mechanics of Hogan..so that may be the reason nobody looks Hoganesque for decades..as in nada! Now, if you focus on the LOOKS first priority, with the help of mechanics at 2nd priority, heck you may succeed! Yeah, don't listen to me! Go visual first and tell us how you do it!...lol Your method may very well be the way, the truth and the Hogan! Lol
[/quote]

Lol........we're on the same page! This is what I've been saying for the past few weeks!! For decades, people have been focused on what the book says (although it may have lots of key info there, so I'm not discounting any part of it), or at what Hogan said in a magazine, or what his friends, friends, friends great uncle said he said, or what the latest Hogan guru instructor said. These things, I cannot prove. I can however, press play on his video, and press play on mine, then compare them........If it matches, I yell :Yeeeeeehawwwww!"


Now, where we get off the same page is when you said [i]"Now, if you focus on the LOOKS first priority, with the help of mechanics at 2nd priority"[/i] ........
The LOOKS [b]are[/b] the mechanics!

Regarding the waggle:
Method 1 - I read the book and am able to translate the Hogan words into a successfull waggle movementam. I am able to get the club to move exactly the way Hogan does based on what I have read. Lets say the book gave specific mechanical detail of how to do this move. I would be focused on mechanics and Hogans word.

Method 2 - I watch a video of Hogans waggle. I am focused on the look. I rewind/replay until I match what he is doing.

Then get a video camera and record the results of method 1 and method 2. Play them both back. They will have the same result, but method1 was done based on mechanics, and method2 was done based on the look. Whichever process you pick, they have the same result.

If you want, you can break method 2 down into a written, mechanical document.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1314337272' post='3520290']
BHSP,really it's not about non-believing.It's about being realistic.It's not directed at you personally as I don't think anyone could do what you are trying to do.Many have tried and failed so you can understand why people are skeptical.

You have not posted this blog on www.Istartedplayinggolflastweek.com

You are not going to dress like Hogan,have a one planeish type of swing and get lots of ooh's and ahh's and wow you look just like Hogan comments.The crowd here is harder to please.

I think you could capture the essence of his swing using his principles but in a swing that is unique to you but I still maintain it is futile to copy his every movement inch for inch.

Even guys like Martinez,Spider and Sevam1 whom many people regard as having very Hogan like swings do not match him inch for inch.

Having said all this,golf should be fun and if pursuing this goal is fun for you,then please proceed.I will provide my humble input from time to time if you will still accept it after everything I have said.LOL
[/quote]

As i said in past posts, I trust, respect, and admire everything you have to say. It can only help me.

Based on what you've said on this thread, I think if Hogan stood in front of you and showed you how to do the waggle, you would believe you were doing it, but if you learned to do the waggle yourself, you wouldn't believe it were correct because it's " Hogan's" waggle, and he is a multiple Major champion/extraordinary talent/icon/legend.

And, lol this is a project.......there were times when I was in High School that I submitted a project where I got an F on it lol.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1314359252' post='3520467']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1314341497' post='3520342']
Darn, yeah....for decades, golfer's have been trying to focus on JUST the mechanics of Hogan..so that may be the reason nobody looks Hoganesque for decades..as in nada! Now, if you focus on the LOOKS first priority, with the help of mechanics at 2nd priority, heck you may succeed! Yeah, don't listen to me! Go visual first and tell us how you do it!...lol Your method may very well be the way, the truth and the Hogan! Lol
[/quote]

Lol........we're on the same page! This is what I've been saying for the past few weeks!! For decades, people have been focused on what the book says (although it may have lots of key info there, so I'm not discounting any part of it), or at what Hogan said in a magazine, or what his friends, friends, friends great uncle said he said, or what the latest Hogan guru instructor said. These things, I cannot prove. I can however, press play on his video, and press play on mine, then compare them........If it matches, I yell :Yeeeeeehawwwww!"


Now, where we get off the same page is when you said [i]"Now, if you focus on the LOOKS first priority, with the help of mechanics at 2nd priority"[/i] ........
The LOOKS [b]are[/b] the mechanics!

Regarding the waggle:
Method 1 - I read the book and am able to translate the Hogan words into a successfull waggle movementam. I am able to get the club to move exactly the way Hogan does based on what I have read. Lets say the book gave specific mechanical detail of how to do this move. I would be focused on mechanics and Hogans word.

Method 2 - I watch a video of Hogans waggle. I am focused on the look. I rewind/replay until I match what he is doing.

Then get a video camera and record the results of method 1 and method 2. Play them both back. They will have the same result, but method1 was done based on mechanics, and method2 was done based on the look. Whichever process you pick, they have the same result.

If you want, you can break method 2 down into a written, mechanical document.
[/quote]

Yeah. Although your method of looks the 1st priority and mechanics 2nd priority may be the solution to the decades old Hogan puzzle, they shouldn't be exclusive of each other. BOTH must be an ingredient. It may look exactly like roast beef, but if either one ingredient is absent, when you eat it it will tast like as far as fried fish...

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1314369473' post='3520828']
[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1314359252' post='3520467']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1314341497' post='3520342']
Darn, yeah....for decades, golfer's have been trying to focus on JUST the mechanics of Hogan..so that may be the reason nobody looks Hoganesque for decades..as in nada! Now, if you focus on the LOOKS first priority, with the help of mechanics at 2nd priority, heck you may succeed! Yeah, don't listen to me! Go visual first and tell us how you do it!...lol Your method may very well be the way, the truth and the Hogan! Lol
[/quote]

Lol........we're on the same page! This is what I've been saying for the past few weeks!! For decades, people have been focused on what the book says (although it may have lots of key info there, so I'm not discounting any part of it), or at what Hogan said in a magazine, or what his friends, friends, friends great uncle said he said, or what the latest Hogan guru instructor said. These things, I cannot prove. I can however, press play on his video, and press play on mine, then compare them........If it matches, I yell :Yeeeeeehawwwww!"


Now, where we get off the same page is when you said [i]"Now, if you focus on the LOOKS first priority, with the help of mechanics at 2nd priority"[/i] ........
The LOOKS [b]are[/b] the mechanics!

Regarding the waggle:
Method 1 - I read the book and am able to translate the Hogan words into a successfull waggle movementam. I am able to get the club to move exactly the way Hogan does based on what I have read. Lets say the book gave specific mechanical detail of how to do this move. I would be focused on mechanics and Hogans word.

Method 2 - I watch a video of Hogans waggle. I am focused on the look. I rewind/replay until I match what he is doing.

Then get a video camera and record the results of method 1 and method 2. Play them both back. They will have the same result, but method1 was done based on mechanics, and method2 was done based on the look. Whichever process you pick, they have the same result.

If you want, you can break method 2 down into a written, mechanical document.
[/quote]

Yeah. Although your method of looks the 1st priority and mechanics 2nd priority may be the solution to the decades old Hogan puzzle, they shouldn't be exclusive of each other. BOTH must be an ingredient. It may look exactly like roast beef, but if either one ingredient is absent, when you eat it it will tast like as far as fried fish...
[/quote]

Lol..that's pretty good lol. I get your point.

[oldschoolrocker]

Good luck on the Hogan thing. In the process, don't neglect to remember that no two of us are exactly alike, and what Hogan did, worked for Hogan. I try to do as much Hogan as I can, with regards to my own swing, similar body types, but above all I find his best "lesson" being that he found it "in the dirt." Once again, Good luck, and looking forward to following your progress.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Just got back from a weekend vacation to Florida. My iPhone went for a swim in the Gulf of Mexico, so I've been out of commision regarding communications and recording myself. Phone will be repaired or replaced within the week. Luckily, all my swings and journal were backed up. I took my clubs and planned to get to the course, but had a lot of other business related things going on, as well as Kim's itenerary. I did practice the takeaway a lot. In our condo, there was a full wall mirror in the living room area, which was perfect. I was able to see my alignment really good. I noticed that in the majority of Hogans swings, his right foot is 90 degrees to the target, and the left foot appears to be turned out about 22.5 degrees compared to the right foot, and appears to be well in front of the right. In my Take1 thru Take5 videos, this is something I thought I was doing too; setting up the same as he. In review, I was not. I did have my left foot open, but it was not close enough to the target line. My right foot was also not perpendicular enough to the target line. I am now setting my feet as Hogan and notice my right shin breaking down, or bending in towards the left knee, like in the video below. When I set my feet this way, it FEELS as if the ball will go right.......very right, but I don't know, as I have decided to not focus on any more full swings, only on the section of the swing I am working on. Right now, this section is the walk-into-the-ball/waggle/address/alignment.

See feet at 0:03, 0:20, 1:26, 2:08

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lge9y8BIBtk&feature=related[/media]

[MJBGOLFPRO]

[color=#1C2837][size=2][b][i]"Questions for all non-believers:
1. If Hogan walked into a bunker and set his feet at address, leaving footprints, could you walk in behind him and put your feet in the exact same spot? If there are any "yes" votes, I will keep working at the project."[/i][/b][/size][/color]
[color=#1C2837][size=2][b][i]
[/i][/b][/size][/color]
[size="2"][color="#1c2837"]This is a great attitude to have! yes, Best of luck. [/color][/size]

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

My stinking iPhone parts arrived, but still no LCD backlight, so I haven't been excited about recording any of my swing practice. New iPhone isn't in the budget till late this month, so I will grit my teeth and use the V1 Home on my laptop. I really don't like it cause my webcamera is such low resolution, and it takes a lot of time to convert the video and get it up on youtube.

Got tired of working on the takeaway for the past 2 weeks. Wanted to play around with the full swing. I apologize to everyone following me, as I am not supposed to be thinking about impact till sometimes next year! Couldn't help it...........It has rained for the past week and I can't get to the course. Had to get some swings out of me. Also experimenting with a new camera angle.

I saw a still photograph of Hogan at impact and had an "aaaahhhhhaaaaHHHHHAaaaaa" moment. His supinated left wrist got me veeeeery curious, and I began experimenting with a few things.

My swing has changed dramatically in the past few weeks. I am absolutely smashing the ball into my homemade range. The ball sounds different when hit by the club, and the canvas "pops" when the ball pounds into it. When swinging in my basement, I now cannot complete a full swing because of the club wanting to fly up into the air during the follow-thru. Tearing a nice hole right into my HVAC ducts. I've GOTTA get to the course!!!

Swing is still nowhere near Hogan's, but I am understinding a LOT about his mechanics now!

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S4fOp1NId0[/media]

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1315452967' post='3549988']
My stinking iPhone parts arrived, but still no LCD backlight, so I haven't been excited about recording any of my swing practice. New iPhone isn't in the budget till late this month, so I will grit my teeth and use the V1 Home on my laptop. I really don't like it cause my webcamera is such low resolution, and it takes a lot of time to convert the video and get it up on youtube.

Got tired of working on the takeaway for the past 2 weeks. Wanted to play around with the full swing. I apologize to everyone following me, as I am not supposed to be thinking about impact till sometimes next year! Couldn't help it...........It has rained for the past week and I can't get to the course. Had to get some swings out of me. Also experimenting with a new camera angle.

I saw a still photograph of Hogan at impact and had an "aaaahhhhhaaaaHHHHHAaaaaa" moment. His supinated left wrist got me veeeeery curious, and I began experimenting with a few things.

My swing has changed dramatically in the past few weeks. I am absolutely smashing the ball into my homemade range. The ball sounds different when hit by the club, and the canvas "pops" when the ball pounds into it. When swinging in my basement, I now cannot complete a full swing because of the club wanting to fly up into the air during the follow-thru. Tearing a nice hole right into my HVAC ducts. I've GOTTA get to the course!!!

Swing is still nowhere near Hogan's, but I am understinding a LOT about his mechanics now!

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S4fOp1NId0[/media]
[/quote]

What are the mechanics in there? Cmon, share them with us..

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1315454898' post='3550055']
[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1315452967' post='3549988']
My stinking iPhone parts arrived, but still no LCD backlight, so I haven't been excited about recording any of my swing practice. New iPhone isn't in the budget till late this month, so I will grit my teeth and use the V1 Home on my laptop. I really don't like it cause my webcamera is such low resolution, and it takes a lot of time to convert the video and get it up on youtube.

Got tired of working on the takeaway for the past 2 weeks. Wanted to play around with the full swing. I apologize to everyone following me, as I am not supposed to be thinking about impact till sometimes next year! Couldn't help it...........It has rained for the past week and I can't get to the course. Had to get some swings out of me. Also experimenting with a new camera angle.

I saw a still photograph of Hogan at impact and had an "aaaahhhhhaaaaHHHHHAaaaaa" moment. His supinated left wrist got me veeeeery curious, and I began experimenting with a few things.

My swing has changed dramatically in the past few weeks. I am absolutely smashing the ball into my homemade range. The ball sounds different when hit by the club, and the canvas "pops" when the ball pounds into it. When swinging in my basement, I now cannot complete a full swing because of the club wanting to fly up into the air during the follow-thru. Tearing a nice hole right into my HVAC ducts. I've GOTTA get to the course!!!

Swing is still nowhere near Hogan's, but I am understinding a LOT about his mechanics now!

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S4fOp1NId0[/media]
[/quote]

What are the mechanics in there? Cmon, share them with us..
[/quote]

Well, I was in the living room on the laptop analyzing my collection of Hogan vids. My method of analysis involves taking a sheet of paper, cutting a hole or square or rectangle in it and watching only one part of the body during the swing. Say I'm wanting to understand his left ankle....well, I cover everything else up, so only the ankle is visible. I watch every possible video with every possible angle of just his left ankle through my paper hole. I was playing around last night watching lots of different parts of his swing, when I got to the left wrist as club came down, right in front of the right thigh and right through impact. It appeared to be bent, or supinated. I looked at a few of my stinky swings and noticed that mine was still kinda cocked at this point. So I decided to play around with the concept of backslapping the ball with my left hand. I stood up and did this a few times.........felt stupid and weak, so I stopped doing it. Kim was on the adjacent sofa playing solitare and my oldest daughter was beside me doing her homework. Kept lookin at Hogan videos and focused on how his right elbow moves. Did my same "hole in the paper" trick. Thought about the post I made in another thread about going to a lake and slinging branches into the water. I did this in my mind a few times and it made sense, so I stood up, grabbed one of Kim's house slippers, and slung it across the living room over the kitchen table into the kitchen door. As I slung it, I kept the feeling of my right elbow jamming into my side, and I kept my head down, watching it sail away from me. Kim gave me "the look" and my daughter burst out into laughter and said "that's [i]your[/i] husband." I didn't have a camera on me so I couldn't see what I was doing, but it felt good, so I grabbed the other shoe and did the same. At that point, many light bulbs were going off in my head; I rushed downstairs and tried this with a 5 iron and was shocked at what I saw myself doing when I played it back. Looked nothing like Hogan, but felt good and was different from what I had been doing the past weeks. Then I combined the "house-shoe slinging" with the "early left wrist supination" and this is what you see in the 'Take 6' vid.

You know, I was so danm excited and ran downstairs so fast that I don't think I put her shoes back. Maybe that's why she had a "silent" attitude this morning. Gotta cook her breakfast tomorrow morn to apologize.

I'm glad I experimented with the full swing cause i learned some new stuff, but the frustrating thing about all this is that I still don't like where I am with the takeaway. Back to takeaway study tonite.

[markponi]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1315495714' post='3550917']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1315454898' post='3550055']
[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1315452967' post='3549988']
My stinking iPhone parts arrived, but still no LCD backlight, so I haven't been excited about recording any of my swing practice. New iPhone isn't in the budget till late this month, so I will grit my teeth and use the V1 Home on my laptop. I really don't like it cause my webcamera is such low resolution, and it takes a lot of time to convert the video and get it up on youtube.

Got tired of working on the takeaway for the past 2 weeks. Wanted to play around with the full swing. I apologize to everyone following me, as I am not supposed to be thinking about impact till sometimes next year! Couldn't help it...........It has rained for the past week and I can't get to the course. Had to get some swings out of me. Also experimenting with a new camera angle.

I saw a still photograph of Hogan at impact and had an "aaaahhhhhaaaaHHHHHAaaaaa" moment. His supinated left wrist got me veeeeery curious, and I began experimenting with a few things.

My swing has changed dramatically in the past few weeks. I am absolutely smashing the ball into my homemade range. The ball sounds different when hit by the club, and the canvas "pops" when the ball pounds into it. When swinging in my basement, I now cannot complete a full swing because of the club wanting to fly up into the air during the follow-thru. Tearing a nice hole right into my HVAC ducts. I've GOTTA get to the course!!!

Swing is still nowhere near Hogan's, but I am understinding a LOT about his mechanics now!

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S4fOp1NId0[/media]
[/quote]

What are the mechanics in there? Cmon, share them with us..
[/quote]

Well, I was in the living room on the laptop analyzing my collection of Hogan vids. My method of analysis involves taking a sheet of paper, cutting a hole or square or rectangle in it and watching only one part of the body during the swing. Say I'm wanting to understand his left ankle....well, I cover everything else up, so only the ankle is visible. I watch every possible video with every possible angle of just his left ankle through my paper hole. I was playing around last night watching lots of different parts of his swing, when I got to the left wrist as club came down, right in front of the right thigh and right through impact. It appeared to be bent, or supinated. I looked at a few of my stinky swings and noticed that mine was still kinda cocked at this point. So I decided to play around with the concept of backslapping the ball with my left hand. I stood up and did this a few times.........felt stupid and weak, so I stopped doing it. Kim was on the adjacent sofa playing solitare and my oldest daughter was beside me doing her homework. Kept lookin at Hogan videos and focused on how his right elbow moves. Did my same "hole in the paper" trick. Thought about the post I made in another thread about going to a lake and slinging branches into the water. I did this in my mind a few times and it made sense, so I stood up, grabbed one of Kim's house slippers, and slung it across the living room over the kitchen table into the kitchen door. As I slung it, I kept the feeling of my right elbow jamming into my side, and I kept my head down, watching it sail away from me. Kim gave me "the look" and my daughter burst out into laughter and said "that's [i]your[/i] husband." I didn't have a camera on me so I couldn't see what I was doing, but it felt good, so I grabbed the other shoe and did the same. At that point, many light bulbs were going off in my head; I rushed downstairs and tried this with a 5 iron and was shocked at what I saw myself doing when I played it back. Looked nothing like Hogan, but felt good and was different from what I had been doing the past weeks. Then I combined the "house-shoe slinging" with the "early left wrist supination" and this is what you see in the 'Take 6' vid.

You know, I was so danm excited and ran downstairs so fast that I don't think I put her shoes back. Maybe that's why she had a "silent" attitude this morning. Gotta cook her breakfast tomorrow morn to apologize.

I'm glad I experimented with the full swing cause i learned some new stuff, but the frustrating thing about all this is that I still don't like where I am with the takeaway. Back to takeaway study tonite.
[/quote]


The takeaway: Lots of width...shaft plane points slightly inside the ball target line. Hand path is very shallow and the club stays outside the hands. The width thing is confusing because Hogan's emphasized the waggle so much. But the waggle is not similar to his takeway...it's similar to his impact feeling.

Hope this helps! Love your posts.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Felt like experimenting with the impact area. Here, I am playing around with one of my custom-designed hip n elbow drills.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3-9FlsQjoQ[/media]

Tomorrow, one of my golf buddies is coming to town for the day. I FINALLY GET TO GO TO THE COURSE....YEEEEEEEEHAAAAWWWW!!!!!!!!!! I get to see what the ball does coming out of the grass instead of from my basement floor. The downside..........I still don't have an iPhone to take to the course to do any recording. Hmmmmmm, I wonder how I would look setting up a laptop on the first tee box??

[svs]

Great post BHSP! I have been following you along your journey and think you are on the right track.

You clearly know this isn't an overnight project and you have the understanding that this will take some time, so my hats off to you.

I can tell you one hogan "esque" quality you have nailed down. The " will and determination" of not giving up!
I can tell that any negative posts directed towards your journey only gives you fire to keep at. That my friend is "Ben Hogan". Never give up!

I wish you well with your journey and will be following along.

I like this vid with the "Rocky" music. Heart of a champ!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSAAvhukTiE&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[size="3"]Well, I finally got to the course on this past Saturday morning and it was outstanding! However it didn't start out that way. I left home an hour early to get plenty of time on the driving range and chipping green. As I drove up, there was the usual Saturday morning line at the 1[sup]st[/sup] tee. I parked, and then walked to the pro shop to pay for 9 holes and a large bucket. I propped my bag against a wall outside the pro shop door, and walked inside to another long line of Nike and Taylor Made capped Men ready to whap at a few balls. As I walked in, there was a grey-haired elderly man sitting at one of the tables. You know, whenever I play at a municipal course, there's ALWAYS one of these dudes somewhere around the place lol!! I stood in the line for about 10 minutes; the elderly dude walked out and stood outside smoking a cigarette. He came back in….and that's where it all started…He said "Hey young buck, that your bag out there?" I said "YES SIR!!"with a LOT of enthusiasm, cause I was excited about getting out of the basement to the outdoors. He responded with "what chu know bout persimmon woods? You don't know nuthin bout that old school stuff." I laughed it off and said "they're just clubs…nothin special………..I'm tryin to learn a little something with them." He chuckled back and said "yeah, don't nobody round here know nuthin bout real wood clubs." That comment got the middle-aged guy behind the counter started. "He he he he…….yep, if you got persimmon in your bag, that means you know something bout the game." These types of comments are what I don't like to hear; people labeling me as some type of "good" player just because I have some wooden clubs in my bag. I paid for my 9 holes and large bucket, and quickly laughed myself right out of there; too much pressure lol. I need to get a special shirt made that I wear to the course that says [i]"I am not a good golfer. I am working towards the swing mechanics of Ben Hogan. I wear these Khaki pants, white shirt, and Hogan hat to help make it easier to analyze and compare my swing to his. I swing with wooden clubs to keep a certain swing feeling, and cause I like how they look. I really have no idea what I am doing. Please do not watch me right now because you will be very disappointed. But you should see me in about a year……..I may surprise you!"[/i][/size]

[size="3"]I immediately went to the range and started with my impact-elbow-hip drill. I'm still trying to get Kim to come up with a snazzy name for it; my hope is that it will allow her to become a part of the project. There was one guy on the range with blue shorts and a white shirt. As I walked towards the hitting area, I saw him swatting at balls. From a far-away distance, looked like he was only moving his arms and shoulders, but the ball was flying off the ground like bullets! As I got closer, I noticed all the intricacies of his swing compared to what I am trying to accomplish. Veeeeeeery different; his hips didn't move at all, but he had a consistent strike and the ball was going long……much longer than me. I dropped my bag on the ground and………it started again. He asked how I was doing, then said "whoa, you got real wood clubs lol??" I said, "Yep, just tryin something different today." I always use these clubs, but this is my common response so nobody is waiting to see anything spectacular from me. I worked on the impact-elbow-hip drill for about 15 minutes without a ball, then eased a few balls into the mix. Took some 60% effort swings; the first few went straight, but right, because I forgot to supinate the left wrist and pull the left shoulder back. When I did remember the left wrist/shoulder, flight was in the middle and acceptable.[/size]

[size="3"]I then went to the chipping area to do what I enjoy the most: to see how many I can chip in. Today it was 2 out of 20 minutes worth. I made it a point to over-exaggerate the impact-elbow-hip drill while chipping each ball. Looked just like what I am doing in the 'Take 7' video, except it's a small chipping movement, but same head down/hip thrust/left foot stomp/left knee snap/left shoulder roll-around. I probably looked ridiculous out there lol. My right side began to pain a little, because I am getting so crunched, and because it is a movement I have never done before a couple of days ago. As a bead of sweat began to drop from my nose, I wiped it on my sleeve and looked up towards the clubhouse back door. There was the old guy still puffing on the cigarette with one hand in his pocket staring at me. He yelled out "yah, I see ya down there…….you know what you're doin young buck lol……. I yelled back "nah, not really……I'm still tryin to figure it out!" That's when I picked up all the range balls and headed over to the upper putting green to check the green speed, but mainly to get out of his view lol. [/size]

[size="3"]Greens were medium speed. I waited for Bruce and Larry to arrive. While I waited, I sat at a bench on a hill above/behind the 1[sup]st[/sup] tee box and watched the crowd of 5 carts and lots of walkers. I took note of everyone's practice swing and real swing, pointing out what they are doing that is in line with my goal. I noticed the younger guys (18-30ish) seemed to swing as hard as they could, and most of their balls curved right. Most of the older veterans (50-60ish) swung smooth and easy; most balls went down the middle or drew left. Note to self: get the mindset of an old veteran![/size]

[size="3"]Bruce and Larry finally arrived and we met at the first tee. The crowd that was initially there had teed off and were well into the 2nd hole. It was surprising that it was not busy at 10:22am on a Saturday morn. First thing Larry says when he walks up is "MAN! You got real wood clubs. LOLOLOL! I gotta see this! You might make me get mine out of the closet!" Bruce says, "uhhhh, it will surprise you….I wish he would get rid of 'em….he's taken my money for the past month lol!" Bruce was right, but my improvement had nothing to do with the club, just the mechanics I am working on. We toss up a tee to select hitting order; it's Bruce, Larry, then me. Bruce hits a driver that pushes right, but is in-bounds. As we laugh aloud and comment on how lucky he is to be in bounds, 4 carts pull up and 3 more walkers with push carts. A minute ago, there was no one around, now the whole world. But I didn't mind because I had been on the range practicing my drill, and on the chipping area doing the same, so I had an idea of what the new swing feeling was. Almost my turn up at the plate! Larry is doing a bunch of practice swings and getting ready to hit his driver; his ball went towards where Bruce's was. Then it started again. One of the older lookin dudes standing behind his push cart said "you swingin real woods my man?"[/size]

[size="3"]I said "yah, just figured I would try somethin different today." He asked what it was and if he could see it. I handed him the 3wood and he swung it a few times. His buddy laughed and said "you can barely swing that $300 nike in ya bag. What you gonna do wit real wood!?" Then of course he told his friend, who started commenting about the clubs, then the guy next to him, then a wildfire lol. Everybody was talking about wooden clubs and how the game has changed. Then the worst part: the dude in the hawaiian looking shirt said "come on, give my man his club and let him do his thing. He didn't bring real wood out here for nuthin. Trust me, I saw him on the chipping green swingin it just like Ben Hogan. I ain't lying….."[/size]

[size="3"]I tried to offset the comment by saying "lol nooooooo, it's just the hat. My swing is nowhere near Hogan lol." This is when I wanted to be at home in the basement with just me and the crickets and spiders. If you've seen my post about the Taylor Made Tour bag, you will know what I am talking about. I seem to have issues with people expecting me to do a certain thing or perform a certain way based on the type of equipment or clothing I have on. When I finish the Hogan swing project, I'm gonna start a Ben Hogan Golf Mindset Project lol…..how to cancel out the gallery on the first tee box! I walked up to the white blocks and tried my best to stay focused on the elbow/hip/impact drill. Dropped a ball on the ground and did a few practice drills. I didn't swing all the way around my body; just enough to keep the elbow/hip/thrust feeling. I don't tee balls up if I'm swinging 3wood or smaller, cause when I'm on the fairway, no tees are allowed. I treat the tee box as just another fairway; gives me more fairway practice that way. I walked into the ball just as I've practiced the past few weeks. I did the waggle a few times, then set my left foot forward of my right about 1" closer to the target line, then right foot perpendicular to target line. The right knee was bent in a little, just as I had practiced. With my head down, I took the club back, and loaded my right side, and swung through with the elbow/hip thrust feeling I had practiced on the chipping green. I don't remember seeing the club make contact with the ball/ground (I gotta look into this…….as I think about it, I don't think I have ever seen the club make contact with the ball….what the heck am I looking at when I swing???? Maybe my eyes just roll around in my head or something lol!!!! Gonna get one of those high speed cameras and put it on my eyes !). Well, surprisingly, the ball went straight right with a nice high trajectory and landed just a little farther than Bruce and Larry. It was on a side-hill about 10 yards from OOB. I think it went right because I forgot to supinate during the downswing / impact area. One thing I do distinctly remember is the feeling of the drill movement during the swing, and that as I saw the ball heading on an ok path, I did the Hogan finish, where he falls back on the right heel, then steps forward on the left foot towards the target; kind of an out of balance adjustment he makes. [/size]

[size="3"]The Hawaiian shirt guy then says "I TOLD YA! My man can swing that wood!" That's about all I did was swing it. Really all I did was get lucky under pressure lol. Wish I had that on camera to analyze. Want to know what my left wrist/hand was doing at impact, as well as the overall areas I have been working on night and day.[/size]

[size="3"]I got better with the supination as we played along. A quick note on this supination attempt; I'm not sure if I should be trying to do this or if I should be doing something else to make it happen on its own. I'll know when I officially get to that part of the project. After a while, the swing started to feel "natural". Now it definitely wasn't perfect. I had my fair share of mis-hits and flubs, but overall, it was gooooooood because based on "feeling", I was doing what I had been drilling all week. My 9-hole score of 44 was nothing to be writing home about, but I did beat Bruce by 13 strokes…..again lol.[/size]

[size="3"]WOW! Can't believe I've rambled so much! Sorry for throwing so much at ya in one post. [/size]

[size="3"]More good news….THE IPHONE HAS BEEN ORDERED AND IS ON ITS WAY!!!!!!!!![/size]

[dap]

BHSP,well done but you might want to get a high speed Casio like the FH100 or FC150 to film your swing on the course.An Iphone will not have the frame rate or the shutter speed high enough for the analysis you require in a project like this.They are inexpensive and affordable.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1315971693' post='3562973']
BHSP,well done but you might want to get a high speed Casio like the FH100 or FC150 to film your swing on the course.An Iphone will not have the frame rate or the shutter speed high enough for the analysis you require in a project like this.They are inexpensive and affordable.
[/quote]

Thanks Dap. One of my playing partners has the Casio FC150. I'll see if I can borrow it for a weekend for some of that slo mo action. I did play around with it one day when we were on the range, but at that time, I was just interested in seeing exactly where club was making contact with the ball. Man...if only Hogan had one of these in his day!

[spooky]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1314716342' post='3529828']
... the left foot appears to be turned out about 22.5 degrees compared to the right foot
[/quote]

Seriously?

[dap]

[quote name='spooky' timestamp='1316302704' post='3570896']
[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1314716342' post='3529828']
... the left foot appears to be turned out about 22.5 degrees compared to the right foot
[/quote]

Seriously?
[/quote]
Serious mistake.It should be precicely 22.00,not 22.50.

BHSP,did you measure it wrong or was your protractor out of calibration?

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316318820' post='3571303']
[quote name='spooky' timestamp='1316302704' post='3570896']
[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1314716342' post='3529828']
... the left foot appears to be turned out about 22.5 degrees compared to the right foot
[/quote]

Seriously?
[/quote]
Serious mistake.It should be precicely 22.00,not 22.50.

BHSP,did you measure it wrong or was your protractor out of calibration?
[/quote]

lol Good idea. I rechecked the measurement. It is 22.5......and I don't use a protractor....I use a homemade sundial. I stand in one spot in my basement at approx 7:00pm and watch when the sun rays bounce off the garage window onto the brick wall. A shadow is cast right above my left foot. I've marked on the floor 22.5 degrees.

[spooky]

Oh dear... you were serious. I hope that you have it marked out differently for each club.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Take 8 video.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyLTu8xqrLc[/media]

3wood. Back focused in the takeaway. I've been wandering around the Nile for the past week. Playing around with lots of drills. Gotta get back on track. The takeaway is improving, but still not where I want it to be.

0:45 Right shoulder still easing itself up. I understand why this is happening now, just gotta work on it.

1:50 Club plane is different. Hogan's is turned down to line more. His wrists have hinged differently than mine. If I get to the top with less of a cupped left wrist, my club is right in the area as his. Gonna stay with the cupped wrist for now, but will learn both versions later.

During the takeaway, the top of my head is moving towards the target. Looks and feels kind of stack-n-tilty. Next phase of the takeaway is to cure these misses.

[grahler]

If you continue the egregious error of 22.5 degrees of front foot flare you will never be able to pronate left arm 22 degrees on backswing while cupping the wrist this will throw off your whole third plane shift in transition and lead to clubhead throwaway and loss of pressure point 22 setting you up to be underplane at P22 leading to forced ulnar deviation of the supinated left hand prior to lowpoint-the result will be 22 degrees of potential variance in your d-plane alignments so if you want to go down that road be my guest trust me its no picnic.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1316409137' post='3573181']
If you continue the egregious error of 22.5 degrees of front foot flare you will never be able to pronate left arm 22 degrees on backswing while cupping the wrist this will throw off your whole third plane shift in transition and lead to clubhead throwaway and loss of pressure point 22 setting you up to be underplane at P22 leading to forced ulnar deviation of the supinated left hand prior to lowpoint-the result will be 22 degrees of potential variance in your d-plane alignments so if you want to go down that road be my guest trust me its no picnic.
[/quote]


LOLOLOL! Holy shmoley Batman........


I read this a couple of times and felt my left brain begin to smolder.