Beginning my try at duplicating Hogan's Swing

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1314158691' post='3514742']
[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1314155350' post='3514598']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1314146677' post='3514173']
You don't stand tall enough at address.One peculiarity of Hogan was that he addressed the ball standing very upright then introduced waist bend as soon as he took the club away.He even got more bent over as he started his downswing.

I tried it,doesn't work for me but good luck.These peculiarities was natural to Hogan.He didn't do them because he tried to copy someone else.It's his swing DNA,not yours but don't let that discourage you.You may not succeed but it's fun trying.
[/quote]

I understand what you mean about the address, but from the study guide I've put together, the upright stance is with all the wooden clubs. As the club length shortened, his spine angle decreased. I took all the swings from all the videos I could find and did precalculus and basic trig on all of them.
[/quote]
Relatively speaking of course he stood more erect with the woods because they are longer but you are missing the point.Hogan got more bent over during the backswing and got even lower in the downswing which you aren't doing.

I am not saying one has to do this to play good golf but if you want to copy Hogan exactly,this is an important look.
[/quote]

Ok...got it. When I get to the backswing/downswing phase, I'll be sure to look into the "got more bent over and even lower in downswing" dynamics. Right now, I'm just focusing on the address and takeaway. Trying to get these into a real basic Hoganesque form. I really shouldn't be doing a full swing, but I want to stay in "golf shape." I still try to play with the guys once a week; it's fun talking trash and taking their money.

[Judge440]

Great thread here. Good luck and stay with it.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1314158691' post='3514742']
[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1314155350' post='3514598']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1314146677' post='3514173']
You don't stand tall enough at address.One peculiarity of Hogan was that he addressed the ball standing very upright then introduced waist bend as soon as he took the club away.He even got more bent over as he started his downswing.

I tried it,doesn't work for me but good luck.These peculiarities was natural to Hogan.He didn't do them because he tried to copy someone else.It's his swing DNA,not yours but don't let that discourage you.You may not succeed but it's fun trying.
[/quote]

I understand what you mean about the address, but from the study guide I've put together, the upright stance is with all the wooden clubs. As the club length shortened, his spine angle decreased. I took all the swings from all the videos I could find and did precalculus and basic trig on all of them.
[/quote]
Relatively speaking of course he stood more erect with the woods because they are longer but you are missing the point.Hogan got more bent over during the backswing and got even lower in the downswing which you aren't doing.

I am not saying one has to do this to play good golf but if you want to copy Hogan exactly,this is an important look.
[/quote]

That's right, but that's not the point either IMO. IMO, that's worthless, no offense, what I mean is that that has no practical benefit at all to BHP's project/swing. Instead of stating the obvious (BHP can see that too I'm sure..), Dap why not tell him the why and the ultimate cause of more bend at bs and ds? He can improve that way and get closer. Instead of telling him it can't be done because of different DNA etc...these are things you just have to live with..why not just tell him what's Hogan is "ultimately" doing IYO? That way were gonna help BHP in practical terms.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

I played around with the takeaway last nite for a couple of hours. I tried everything to get the club to travel up the plane line, while keeping right shoulder from rising, while keeping right elbow down, as Hogan's is.......but I just could not get it. I could get one of the three to happen, but if the shaft was on plane, then the shoulder rose. If the shoulder was flat, the club was way under plane. If the elbow was pointing down during takeaway, then all the rest of it went to trash. A dog could have done this move better than what I was coming up with lol. Went to bed looking at Hogan videos, analyzing the stinking takeaway. What is the elbow-shoulder-shaft connection? Kept passing by videos titled "Hogan's Secret," but I'm convinced that none of this is a secret cause it's right there in the video......in [b]all[/b] the videos. I showed Kim the Hogan elbow-shoulder-shaft move just to get her involved in what I was doing and to get her opinion; she was attentive for about 2 minutes, then gave her scientific suggestion, "duuuhhhh, why don't you just do what he is doing in the video???" That's when I stared at her for about 5 seconds, then politely grabbed my laptop, and moved back to my side of the bed. Then she said "well don't get an attitude with me.......I don't really care about any of this Hogan mess; I'm just trying to help cause you asked my opinion..........you're the one trying to copy the guy. Seems to me that all you have to do is whatever he is doing. Just move your elbow and shoulder like his." Lol.....she makes this sound so simple.

Now to the best part.......woke up this morning and had a breakthru. FINALLY GOT IT!! I understand exactly how the takeaway is done. Elbow is down, shoulder is flat, club is right on the plane line. It isn't perfect, but now I have something to work with! And I didn't figure it out with physics or trigonometry. Just fiddling with the takeaway for the quintillionth time. I had both hands on the club, and was taking it back while looking into the puter screen, watching the elbow-shoulder-shaft...............I took my left hand off the club (in disgust and frustration), and there it was!!!!! The stinkin left hand has nothing to do with taking the club back. For all my golf career, I have always primarily used my left hand/arm to take the club away. When I first got into golf a few years ago, a "veteran" guy on the range approaced me and saw that I had no idea what I was doing. He mentioned that he had played for 50 years, and was a scratch golfer, and told me that "during the takeaway, you want have the feeling of 'giving' the club," meaning give it to someone standing on the target line to the right of you. While on the range, he stood in front of me, grabbed my left hand, and pushed it down the line and said "give" "give" "give." I also read about this concept in many golf magazines too. I tried his method and it made my ball striking better. Because he was a scratch golfer with grey hair, that could easily hit draws and fades, and highs, and lows, I trusted his every word, cause I wanted to not embarras myself on the range anymore. Now I realize that his word was for what [b]he[/b] was doing in [b]his[/b] swing.

Man.....finally! And, the waggle has soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much to do with the takeaway. Now I gotta tweek it till its as Hoganesque as possible.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1314194458' post='3515367']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1314158691' post='3514742']
[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1314155350' post='3514598']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1314146677' post='3514173']
You don't stand tall enough at address.One peculiarity of Hogan was that he addressed the ball standing very upright then introduced waist bend as soon as he took the club away.He even got more bent over as he started his downswing.

I tried it,doesn't work for me but good luck.These peculiarities was natural to Hogan.He didn't do them because he tried to copy someone else.It's his swing DNA,not yours but don't let that discourage you.You may not succeed but it's fun trying.
[/quote]

I understand what you mean about the address, but from the study guide I've put together, the upright stance is with all the wooden clubs. As the club length shortened, his spine angle decreased. I took all the swings from all the videos I could find and did precalculus and basic trig on all of them.
[/quote]
Relatively speaking of course he stood more erect with the woods because they are longer but you are missing the point.Hogan got more bent over during the backswing and got even lower in the downswing which you aren't doing.

I am not saying one has to do this to play good golf but if you want to copy Hogan exactly,this is an important look.
[/quote]

That's right, but that's not the point either IMO. IMO, that's worthless, no offense, what I mean is that that has no practical benefit at all to BHP's project/swing. Instead of stating the obvious (BHP can see that too I'm sure..), Dap why not tell him the why and the ultimate cause of more bend at bs and ds? He can improve that way and get closer. Instead of telling him it can't be done because of different DNA etc...these are things you just have to live with..why not just tell him what's Hogan is "ultimately" doing IYO? That way were gonna help BHP in practical terms.
[/quote]

Thanks for the uplift/support hogangolf101. Dap's comments about what he sees in Hogan's bend/tilt may not appear to be that beneficial, but trust me, it is helping more than you realize. The only disagreement I have with Dap is regarding the [i]"He didn't do them because he tried to copy someone else.It's his swing DNA,not yours". [/i]On a joking note, it has been scientifically proven that DNA is extractable and clonable lol. On a serious note, take the example of language. I am teaching myself Spanish and Italian. I was born in the United States and I have the accent of a person born/raised in the U.S. This is not part of my DNA, it is based on the surrounding I was raised in, based on the observational learning that took place when I was growing up. I developed the accent of the people around me. As I began to learn Spanish , I spoke Spanish words with an "American" accent. Over time, I have been able to observe/listen to Spanish speakers and gain an understanding of the specifics of their accent, and can now speak Spanish that sounds like I am from Spain. I have never been there, I have no Spanish relatives, I have no Spanish "DNA," but I was able to copy and imitate.

In time, I will observe enough of the Hogan moves and practice them enough unitl my swing has a Hogan accent.

I'm all ears for what everyone thinks Hogan is "ultimately" doing. This is gonna help waaaaaaay more that just me...........virtually all the Hogan fans around the globe.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1314196005' post='3515432']
I played around with the takeaway last nite for a couple of hours. I tried everything to get the club to travel up the plane line, while keeping right shoulder from rising, while keeping right elbow down, as Hogan's is.......but I just could not get it. I could get one of the three to happen, but if the shaft was on plane, then the shoulder rose. If the shoulder was flat, the club was way under plane. If the elbow was pointing down during takeaway, then all the rest of it went to trash. A dog could have done this move better than what I was coming up with lol. Went to bed looking at Hogan videos, analyzing the stinking takeaway. What is the elbow-shoulder-shaft connection? Kept passing by videos titled "Hogan's Secret," but I'm convinced that none of this is a secret cause it's right there in the video......in [b]all[/b] the videos. I showed Kim the Hogan elbow-shoulder-shaft move just to get her involved in what I was doing and to get her opinion; she was attentive for about 2 minutes, then gave her scientific suggestion, "duuuhhhh, why don't you just do what he is doing in the video???" That's when I stared at her for about 5 seconds, then politely grabbed my laptop, and moved back to my side of the bed. Then she said "well don't get an attitude with me.......I don't really care about any of this Hogan mess; I'm just trying to help cause you asked my opinion..........you're the one trying to copy the guy. Seems to me that all you have to do is whatever he is doing. Just move your elbow and shoulder like his." Lol.....she makes this sound so simple.

Now to the best part.......woke up this morning and had a breakthru. FINALLY GOT IT!! I understand exactly how the takeaway is done. Elbow is down, shoulder is flat, club is right on the plane line. It isn't perfect, but now I have something to work with! And I didn't figure it out with physics or trigonometry. Just fiddling with the takeaway for the quintillionth time. I had both hands on the club, and was taking it back while looking into the puter screen, watching the elbow-shoulder-shaft...............I took my left hand off the club (in disgust and frustration), and there it was!!!!! The stinkin left hand has nothing to do with taking the club back. For all my golf career, I have always primarily used my left hand/arm to take the club away. When I first got into golf a few years ago, a "veteran" guy on the range approaced me and saw that I had no idea what I was doing. He mentioned that he had played for 50 years, and was a scratch golfer, and told me that "during the takeaway, you want have the feeling of 'giving' the club," meaning give it to someone standing on the target line to the right of you. While on the range, he stood in front of me, grabbed my left hand, and pushed it down the line and said "give" "give" "give." I also read about this concept in many golf magazines too. I tried his method and it made my ball striking better. Because he was a scratch golfer with grey hair, that could easily hit draws and fades, and highs, and lows, I trusted his every word, cause I wanted to not embarras myself on the range anymore. Now I realize that his word was for what [b]he[/b] was doing in [b]his[/b] swing.

Man.....finally! And, the waggle has soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much to do with the takeaway. Now I gotta tweek it till its as Hoganesque as possible.
[/quote]

Agree 100%. The waggle IS the takeaway. In 5L Hogan said:

"... As the golfer takes the club back on the waggle, he accustoms himself to the path the club will be taking on his actual backswing...."

"... For all general points and purposes, the backswing is simply an extension of the way the golfer takes the club back on the waggle. The club follows that same path and it is swung back at the speed the waggle has regulated. There is, however, one significant difference between the waggle and the backswing which must be made crystal-clear. DURING THE WAGGLE, THE SHOULDERS DO NOT TURN. ON THE ACTUAL SWING, THEY DO, RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE BACKSWING. THE BACKSWING IS, IN FACT, INITIATED BY THE ALMOST SIMULTANEOUS MOVEMENT OF THE HANDS, ARMS AND SHOULDERS. Introducing the shoulders does not alter the pattern you set up in the waggle. By turning your shoulders on your actual backswing, you simply increase the arc of your waggle...."

"... In the waggle, the left hand is the controlling hand. The right works along with the left. EACH TIME YOU WAGGLE THE CLUB BACK, THE RIGHT ELBOW SHOULD HIT THE FRONT PART OF YOUR RIGHT HIP, JUST ABOUT WHERE YOUR WATCH POCKET IS. WHEN THIS TAKES PLACE, THE LEFT ELBOW, AS IT MUST, COMES OUT SLIGHTLY, THE LOWER PART OF THE ARM FROM THE ELBOW DOWN ROTATES A LITTLE, AND THE LEFT HAND MOVES THREE INCHES OR SO PAST THE BALL TOWARD THE TARGET. AS THE HANDS MOVE BACK TO THE BALL ON THE FORWARD WAGGLE, THE LEFT HAND ALSO MOVES AN INCH OR TWO PAST THE BALL TOWARD THE TARGET. During the waggle, the upper part of the arms remain rooted against the sides of the chest...."

It's all there. He said it all. Now if you read this (and the subsequent posts that we will make), i think we've found a way to make you read 5L! Lol... Yeah, force-feeding... Lol

And note the Gardner Dickinson drill (I believe taught by Hogan to him)...the right wrist bends immediately. That's essentially what Hogan means when he said in above-quoted 5L:"... The right works along with the left...." My 2cents...

[svsvincenzo]

Forgot this, IMO this is very important:

"... As the lower part of his left arm rotates on the waggle, the golfer actually gets on backswing plane. "

[svsvincenzo]

In fact, if you carefully read the above-quoted words of Hogan in 5L, you'll realize that the waggle is not only the takeaway, it's the backswing. The only difference is the shoulder turn..read it again.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1314200417' post='3515709']
[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1314196005' post='3515432']
I played around with the takeaway last nite for a couple of hours. I tried everything to get the club to travel up the plane line, while keeping right shoulder from rising, while keeping right elbow down, as Hogan's is.......but I just could not get it. I could get one of the three to happen, but if the shaft was on plane, then the shoulder rose. If the shoulder was flat, the club was way under plane. If the elbow was pointing down during takeaway, then all the rest of it went to trash. A dog could have done this move better than what I was coming up with lol. Went to bed looking at Hogan videos, analyzing the stinking takeaway. What is the elbow-shoulder-shaft connection? Kept passing by videos titled "Hogan's Secret," but I'm convinced that none of this is a secret cause it's right there in the video......in [b]all[/b] the videos. I showed Kim the Hogan elbow-shoulder-shaft move just to get her involved in what I was doing and to get her opinion; she was attentive for about 2 minutes, then gave her scientific suggestion, "duuuhhhh, why don't you just do what he is doing in the video???" That's when I stared at her for about 5 seconds, then politely grabbed my laptop, and moved back to my side of the bed. Then she said "well don't get an attitude with me.......I don't really care about any of this Hogan mess; I'm just trying to help cause you asked my opinion..........you're the one trying to copy the guy. Seems to me that all you have to do is whatever he is doing. Just move your elbow and shoulder like his." Lol.....she makes this sound so simple.

Now to the best part.......woke up this morning and had a breakthru. FINALLY GOT IT!! I understand exactly how the takeaway is done. Elbow is down, shoulder is flat, club is right on the plane line. It isn't perfect, but now I have something to work with! And I didn't figure it out with physics or trigonometry. Just fiddling with the takeaway for the quintillionth time. I had both hands on the club, and was taking it back while looking into the puter screen, watching the elbow-shoulder-shaft...............I took my left hand off the club (in disgust and frustration), and there it was!!!!! The stinkin left hand has nothing to do with taking the club back. For all my golf career, I have always primarily used my left hand/arm to take the club away. When I first got into golf a few years ago, a "veteran" guy on the range approaced me and saw that I had no idea what I was doing. He mentioned that he had played for 50 years, and was a scratch golfer, and told me that "during the takeaway, you want have the feeling of 'giving' the club," meaning give it to someone standing on the target line to the right of you. While on the range, he stood in front of me, grabbed my left hand, and pushed it down the line and said "give" "give" "give." I also read about this concept in many golf magazines too. I tried his method and it made my ball striking better. Because he was a scratch golfer with grey hair, that could easily hit draws and fades, and highs, and lows, I trusted his every word, cause I wanted to not embarras myself on the range anymore. Now I realize that his word was for what [b]he[/b] was doing in [b]his[/b] swing.

Man.....finally! And, the waggle has soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much to do with the takeaway. Now I gotta tweek it till its as Hoganesque as possible.
[/quote]

Agree 100%. The waggle IS the takeaway. In 5L Hogan said:

"... As the golfer takes the club back on the waggle, he accustoms himself to the path the club will be taking on his actual backswing...."

"... For all general points and purposes, the backswing is simply an extension of the way the golfer takes the club back on the waggle. The club follows that same path and it is swung back at the speed the waggle has regulated. There is, however, one significant difference between the waggle and the backswing which must be made crystal-clear. DURING THE WAGGLE, THE SHOULDERS DO NOT TURN. ON THE ACTUAL SWING, THEY DO, RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE BACKSWING. THE BACKSWING IS, IN FACT, INITIATED BY THE ALMOST SIMULTANEOUS MOVEMENT OF THE HANDS, ARMS AND SHOULDERS. Introducing the shoulders does not alter the pattern you set up in the waggle. By turning your shoulders on your actual backswing, you simply increase the arc of your waggle...."

"... In the waggle, the left hand is the controlling hand. The right works along with the left. EACH TIME YOU WAGGLE THE CLUB BACK, THE RIGHT ELBOW SHOULD HIT THE FRONT PART OF YOUR RIGHT HIP, JUST ABOUT WHERE YOUR WATCH POCKET IS. WHEN THIS TAKES PLACE, THE LEFT ELBOW, AS IT MUST, COMES OUT SLIGHTLY, THE LOWER PART OF THE ARM FROM THE ELBOW DOWN ROTATES A LITTLE, AND THE LEFT HAND MOVES THREE INCHES OR SO PAST THE BALL TOWARD THE TARGET. AS THE HANDS MOVE BACK TO THE BALL ON THE FORWARD WAGGLE, THE LEFT HAND ALSO MOVES AN INCH OR TWO PAST THE BALL TOWARD THE TARGET. During the waggle, the upper part of the arms remain rooted against the sides of the chest...."

It's all there. He said it all. Now if you read this (and the subsequent posts that we will make), i think we've found a way to make you read 5L! Lol... Yeah, force-feeding... Lol

And note the Gardner Dickinson drill (I believe taught by Hogan to him)...the right wrist bends immediately. That's essentially what Hogan means when he said in above-quoted 5L:"... The right works along with the left...." My 2cents...
[/quote]

ROLFFFFFLLLLLL!!!! You just threw the book at me! Lol!! Holy shmoley....let the world know, I just read the book!!!!!! Grrrrrrr! lol! Or maybe I threw my hand over my screen before I saw the book text lol! Thanks for this hogangolf101. Just glad I figured out the takeaway feeling before you threw the book at me. But now confusion sets in.........book says that "... In the waggle, the left hand is the controlling hand. The right works along with the left." For me, the right hand is the controller. Kinda like if I were setting up to hit a baseball, or chop at a tree with an axe, I would purposefully think right hand domination, because it feels more powerful, i'm guessing because i'm right handed. If I had to choose between chopping the tree with only my right, or only my left, the right would definitely win. A "left hand only" chop wouldn't be as powerful to me.

[dap]

Regardimg Hogan's upright setup and then moving to a very bent over posture...who can say for sure why he did it?My guess is that the highly rotary nature of his swing required a bent over posture but he favored an inline right forearm address.You can't have a bent over posture without low hands and Hogan preferred high hands at address.

Sorry,but I don't have a scientific gobbledegook jargon answer to satisfy you technical freaks out there in Hogan land.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1314203069' post='3515830']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1314200417' post='3515709']
[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1314196005' post='3515432']
I played around with the takeaway last nite for a couple of hours. I tried everything to get the club to travel up the plane line, while keeping right shoulder from rising, while keeping right elbow down, as Hogan's is.......but I just could not get it. I could get one of the three to happen, but if the shaft was on plane, then the shoulder rose. If the shoulder was flat, the club was way under plane. If the elbow was pointing down during takeaway, then all the rest of it went to trash. A dog could have done this move better than what I was coming up with lol. Went to bed looking at Hogan videos, analyzing the stinking takeaway. What is the elbow-shoulder-shaft connection? Kept passing by videos titled "Hogan's Secret," but I'm convinced that none of this is a secret cause it's right there in the video......in [b]all[/b] the videos. I showed Kim the Hogan elbow-shoulder-shaft move just to get her involved in what I was doing and to get her opinion; she was attentive for about 2 minutes, then gave her scientific suggestion, "duuuhhhh, why don't you just do what he is doing in the video???" That's when I stared at her for about 5 seconds, then politely grabbed my laptop, and moved back to my side of the bed. Then she said "well don't get an attitude with me.......I don't really care about any of this Hogan mess; I'm just trying to help cause you asked my opinion..........you're the one trying to copy the guy. Seems to me that all you have to do is whatever he is doing. Just move your elbow and shoulder like his." Lol.....she makes this sound so simple.

Now to the best part.......woke up this morning and had a breakthru. FINALLY GOT IT!! I understand exactly how the takeaway is done. Elbow is down, shoulder is flat, club is right on the plane line. It isn't perfect, but now I have something to work with! And I didn't figure it out with physics or trigonometry. Just fiddling with the takeaway for the quintillionth time. I had both hands on the club, and was taking it back while looking into the puter screen, watching the elbow-shoulder-shaft...............I took my left hand off the club (in disgust and frustration), and there it was!!!!! The stinkin left hand has nothing to do with taking the club back. For all my golf career, I have always primarily used my left hand/arm to take the club away. When I first got into golf a few years ago, a "veteran" guy on the range approaced me and saw that I had no idea what I was doing. He mentioned that he had played for 50 years, and was a scratch golfer, and told me that "during the takeaway, you want have the feeling of 'giving' the club," meaning give it to someone standing on the target line to the right of you. While on the range, he stood in front of me, grabbed my left hand, and pushed it down the line and said "give" "give" "give." I also read about this concept in many golf magazines too. I tried his method and it made my ball striking better. Because he was a scratch golfer with grey hair, that could easily hit draws and fades, and highs, and lows, I trusted his every word, cause I wanted to not embarras myself on the range anymore. Now I realize that his word was for what [b]he[/b] was doing in [b]his[/b] swing.

Man.....finally! And, the waggle has soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much to do with the takeaway. Now I gotta tweek it till its as Hoganesque as possible.
[/quote]

Agree 100%. The waggle IS the takeaway. In 5L Hogan said:

"... As the golfer takes the club back on the waggle, he accustoms himself to the path the club will be taking on his actual backswing...."

"... For all general points and purposes, the backswing is simply an extension of the way the golfer takes the club back on the waggle. The club follows that same path and it is swung back at the speed the waggle has regulated. There is, however, one significant difference between the waggle and the backswing which must be made crystal-clear. DURING THE WAGGLE, THE SHOULDERS DO NOT TURN. ON THE ACTUAL SWING, THEY DO, RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE BACKSWING. THE BACKSWING IS, IN FACT, INITIATED BY THE ALMOST SIMULTANEOUS MOVEMENT OF THE HANDS, ARMS AND SHOULDERS. Introducing the shoulders does not alter the pattern you set up in the waggle. By turning your shoulders on your actual backswing, you simply increase the arc of your waggle...."

"... In the waggle, the left hand is the controlling hand. The right works along with the left. EACH TIME YOU WAGGLE THE CLUB BACK, THE RIGHT ELBOW SHOULD HIT THE FRONT PART OF YOUR RIGHT HIP, JUST ABOUT WHERE YOUR WATCH POCKET IS. WHEN THIS TAKES PLACE, THE LEFT ELBOW, AS IT MUST, COMES OUT SLIGHTLY, THE LOWER PART OF THE ARM FROM THE ELBOW DOWN ROTATES A LITTLE, AND THE LEFT HAND MOVES THREE INCHES OR SO PAST THE BALL TOWARD THE TARGET. AS THE HANDS MOVE BACK TO THE BALL ON THE FORWARD WAGGLE, THE LEFT HAND ALSO MOVES AN INCH OR TWO PAST THE BALL TOWARD THE TARGET. During the waggle, the upper part of the arms remain rooted against the sides of the chest...."

It's all there. He said it all. Now if you read this (and the subsequent posts that we will make), i think we've found a way to make you read 5L! Lol... Yeah, force-feeding... Lol

And note the Gardner Dickinson drill (I believe taught by Hogan to him)...the right wrist bends immediately. That's essentially what Hogan means when he said in above-quoted 5L:"... The right works along with the left...." My 2cents...
[/quote]

ROLFFFFFLLLLLL!!!! You just threw the book at me! Lol!! Holy shmoley....let the world know, I just read the book!!!!!! Grrrrrrr! lol! Or maybe I threw my hand over my screen before I saw the book text lol! Thanks for this hogangolf101. Just glad I figured out the takeaway feeling before you threw the book at me. But now confusion sets in.........book says that "... In the waggle, the left hand is the controlling hand. The right works along with the left." For me, the right hand is the controller. Kinda like if I were setting up to hit a baseball, or chop at a tree with an axe, I would purposefully think right hand domination, because it feels more powerful, i'm guessing because i'm right handed. If I had to choose between chopping the tree with only my right, or only my left, the right would definitely win. A "left hand only" chop wouldn't be as powerful to me.
[/quote]

Also, if I were to set up as a right handed pitcher throwing a sidearm fastball to the batter; throwing it with my right would sling the ball on a bullet path to the catcher, lets say in the 80mph range. In the same right hand mechanic and setup, throwing it with my left hand would slow things waaaaayyyy down; ball throwing speed would be reduced down to softball specs, and the batter would likely jack a 400 footer into the stands.

[SwingNV]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1314203675' post='3515857']
[Also, if I were to set up as a right handed pitcher throwing a sidearm fastball to the batter; throwing it with my right would sling the ball on a bullet path to the catcher, lets say in the 80mph range. In the same right hand mechanic and setup, throwing it with my left hand would slow things waaaaayyyy down; ball throwing speed would be reduced down to softball specs, and the batter would likely jack a 400 footer into the stands.
[/quote]

No doubt you are correct that you want a powerful right arm but can you maximize power in the right without it resisting something from the left? I say no. Imagine you are going to arm wrestle with your right arm. Can you create more power just sitting there by yourself or with an opponent?

What if Hogan waggled/started his baskswing with his left as a loading mechanism to max out the inertia he can create initally. That's the way I see. Start it back with the left while resisting the inertia with the right. The faster you waggle, the more potential inital load you are creating, which in turn can create more clubhead speed.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='SwingNV' timestamp='1314209497' post='3516175']
[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1314203675' post='3515857']
[Also, if I were to set up as a right handed pitcher throwing a sidearm fastball to the batter; throwing it with my right would sling the ball on a bullet path to the catcher, lets say in the 80mph range. In the same right hand mechanic and setup, throwing it with my left hand would slow things waaaaayyyy down; ball throwing speed would be reduced down to softball specs, and the batter would likely jack a 400 footer into the stands.
[/quote]

No doubt you are correct that you want a powerful right arm but can you maximize power in the right without it resisting something from the left? I say no. Imagine you are going to arm wrestle with your right arm. Can you create more power just sitting there by yourself or with an opponent?

What if Hogan waggled/started his baskswing with his left as a loading mechanism to max out the inertia he can create initally. That's the way I see. Start it back with the left while resisting the inertia with the right. The faster you waggle, the more potential inital load you are creating, which in turn can create more clubhead speed.
[/quote]

I'll try both tonite. Starting the waggle with the right, then with the left. Will see what they look like on video, and what they feel like.

I get what you say in the arm wrestling analogy; in that case, I would definitely want to create some type of leverage. But my thinking is that the golf swing has no relation to the arm wrestling move. I can only relate it to other swing movements, like:

- tennis forehand
- ping pong forehand
- cracking of a whip (side arm style)
- baseball pitch (sidearm)
- skipping a rock into a lake (sidearm style)

All these seem to have one lever in common.......the right side, specifically the right knee.

I could be way wrong on this theory, cause I'm speaking on the subject before I get into the swing lab and try it. So I may be setting myself up for the "i told you so" response from everyone.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Last week, Kim insisted that we stop by a thrift store to browse. She was in a shopping mood. Said you never know what you'll find in those places. I didn't want to stop, but went anyway to keep a smile on her face. I was browsing the mens 34 pants rack when I came across some ok looking khakis. I ended up buying 3 pair. All khaki, but different shades. One costed $2.99, the second $4.99, and the third $6.99. Pretty good deal for some new lookin pants.

I wore the Docker's Premium yesterday and they fit great. Wonder who'se a$$ was in them before me? Were they a golfer? I wore the expensive pair today. Kim and i just exchanged the following texts:

ME: Thanks for turning me on to the thrift store....it was a good used shopping experience! Way to go beautiful wife!!!!

KIM: Happy you like them. I think those you have on today look better on you. The other ones make you look old.........just sayin!

ME: I don't mind old.........Hogan looked old sometimes!! Muahahaaaahaa!

KIM: But Hogan wasn't married to me!!

ME: You will be married to a likeness of him once I get this swing figured out!

KIM: Oooooo......Luck me! My life is now complete. :/

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1314211100' post='3516250']
[quote name='SwingNV' timestamp='1314209497' post='3516175']
[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1314203675' post='3515857']
[Also, if I were to set up as a right handed pitcher throwing a sidearm fastball to the batter; throwing it with my right would sling the ball on a bullet path to the catcher, lets say in the 80mph range. In the same right hand mechanic and setup, throwing it with my left hand would slow things waaaaayyyy down; ball throwing speed would be reduced down to softball specs, and the batter would likely jack a 400 footer into the stands.
[/quote]

No doubt you are correct that you want a powerful right arm but can you maximize power in the right without it resisting something from the left? I say no. Imagine you are going to arm wrestle with your right arm. Can you create more power just sitting there by yourself or with an opponent?

What if Hogan waggled/started his baskswing with his left as a loading mechanism to max out the inertia he can create initally. That's the way I see. Start it back with the left while resisting the inertia with the right. The faster you waggle, the more potential inital load you are creating, which in turn can create more clubhead speed.
[/quote]

I'll try both tonite. Starting the waggle with the right, then with the left. Will see what they look like on video, and what they feel like.

I get what you say in the arm wrestling analogy; in that case, I would definitely want to create some type of leverage. But my thinking is that the golf swing has no relation to the arm wrestling move. I can only relate it to other swing movements, like:

- tennis forehand
- ping pong forehand
- cracking of a whip (side arm style)
- baseball pitch (sidearm)
- skipping a rock into a lake (sidearm style)

All these seem to have one lever in common.......the right side, specifically the right knee.

I could be way wrong on this theory, cause I'm speaking on the subject before I get into the swing lab and try it. So I may be setting myself up for the "i told you so" response from everyone.
[/quote]

Hogan clearly said left hand controls, plus in the Nick Seitz interview (foreword to 85 edition of 5L) that you must do it with your left arm. Maybe your right hand is not working along with the left hand before and does something that's disturbing the left hand. Also, Hogan said you use the inside muscles of arms. A right hand control to me is outside muscles, a left hand control is inside muscle. Why not work within this framework that Hogan himself laid out?

[dap]

I respect other people's opinions so I am always happy to agree to disagree.But I also have my opinions and I believe nobody on this forum has cloned Hogan's swing and nobody ever will.You may get reasonably close and have some similar features but it will never look the same positionally,dynamically and rhythmically.

Just because you have a one planeish type of swing doesn't qualify you as being a Hogan clone.

[svsvincenzo]

Agree to disagree a 100%. Everybody's entitled to their opinions. But IMO the EFFORT to adopt Hogan's mechanics, even if visually un-Hogan, will inevitably result to improved swing mechanics/fundamentals. I really believe what Hogan said. He may not have told all his mechanics, but I believe all of what he said are the fundamentals. So I think BHP won't be detrimentally affected at all by his "cloning" project. He's got nothing to lose.

[dap]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1314255529' post='3517770']
Agree to disagree a 100%. Everybody's entitled to their opinions. But IMO the EFFORT to adopt Hogan's mechanics, even if visually un-Hogan, will inevitably result to improved swing mechanics/fundamentals. I really believe what Hogan said. He may not have told all his mechanics, but I believe all of what he said are the fundamentals. So I think BHP won't be detrimentally affected at all by his "cloning" project. He's got nothing to lose.
[/quote]
I agree with you here but BHP has stated he wants to clone Hogan even down to his mannerisms,not just apply his principles.Big difference.

Even Hogan himself has said other players should not copy everything he does.His weak grip,both left and right hand is a personal modification for him and may not be suitable for players who don't have a hooking tendency.

This combined with his laying off the club in transition and slightly cupped left wrist opens up the face tremendously and without Hogan's athletic ability to rotate his pivot fast and hard enough,you will never square the clubface in time.

[nitefisher111]

I rolled my eyes when this thread first came out but after following along for a while I admire the OP's drive, attitude and indifference to any of the negative stuff that's been thrown at him. It's been a fun and funny thread.

I have one piece of input that I'm not sure I've seen taken into account in your quest, forgive me if it has.....if you want to swing like Hogan, your equipment needs to be set up like him. This means flat, open and heavy.

Good luck Mr BHSP!!

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1314255529' post='3517770']
Agree to disagree a 100%. Everybody's entitled to their opinions. But IMO the EFFORT to adopt Hogan's mechanics, even if visually un-Hogan, will inevitably result to improved swing mechanics/fundamentals. I really believe what Hogan said. He may not have told all his mechanics, but I believe all of what he said are the fundamentals. So I think BHP won't be detrimentally affected at all by his "cloning" project. He's got nothing to lose.
[/quote]

I agree that taking on this project gives me nothing to lose, but my goal is not to play better golf or improve my overall ballstriking ability, although these things just indirectly started happening on their own. My only goal is to see how close I can come to matching the Hogan swing. If I go out and shoot a 71, but the swing is nowhere Hogan, just as it is nowhere near him right now, I have failed.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1314260216' post='3517799']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1314255529' post='3517770']
Agree to disagree a 100%. Everybody's entitled to their opinions. But IMO the EFFORT to adopt Hogan's mechanics, even if visually un-Hogan, will inevitably result to improved swing mechanics/fundamentals. I really believe what Hogan said. He may not have told all his mechanics, but I believe all of what he said are the fundamentals. So I think BHP won't be detrimentally affected at all by his "cloning" project. He's got nothing to lose.
[/quote]
I agree with you here but BHP has stated he wants to clone Hogan even down to his mannerisms,not just apply his principles.Big difference.

Even Hogan himself has said other players should not copy everything he does.His weak grip,both left and right hand is a personal modification for him and may not be suitable for players who don't have a hooking tendency.

This combined with his laying off the club in transition and slightly cupped left wrist opens up the face tremendously and without Hogan's athletic ability to rotate his pivot fast and hard enough,you will never square the clubface in time.
[/quote]

Dap, I have nothing but respect for your opinions. They are all valid. But the only ones I focus on are comparison of my movement to Hogans. When you said I don't stand upright enough or I'm missing the bend during downswing, I can put these on my list. But I can't put on the list what Hogan said, or what his intentions were, or what the book says. My measure of success will be to play the Hogan video from all angles, then play my video from all angles, then compare what I see. If it matches, Im done, if it doesn't, I keep working on it.

[svsvincenzo]

Good point by nitefisher. Is your equipment Hogan? That one you can clone 100% in 1 lifetime. 5degrees flat, clubface open by 5degrees (?), heavy, D1sw, all woods heavy (as in with steel shafts), and the heads of irons are blades (double blades=opposite of cavity back=less mass on perimeter, more mass on sweetspot; not sure about exact term on this Hgan design, I've heard head of a needle is slightly bigger than sweet spot...lol)... And finally....drum roll........... The woods' heads are "wood"! Persimmon wood! Lol oh men, I really wish you luck...and god bless... Lol

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='nitefisher111' timestamp='1314285551' post='3518354']
I rolled my eyes when this thread first came out but after following along for a while I admire the OP's drive, attitude and indifference to any of the negative stuff that's been thrown at him. It's been a fun and funny thread.

I have one piece of input that I'm not sure I've seen taken into account in your quest, forgive me if it has.....if you want to swing like Hogan, your equipment needs to be set up like him. This means flat, open and heavy.

Good luck Mr BHSP!!
[/quote]

Thanks for the honesty! I don't feel any negativity, because my wife, entire family, friends, and coworkers have been unknowingly preparing me lol. From the wife rolling her eyes, blankly staring at me, and shaking her head, to people slapping me on the forehead with the book, to my 4th grade daughter being on the phone with a classmate telling her "that's just my dad practicing to be Hulk Hogan". I've been through it all ! As long as there is negativity, it means I am active and working towards succeeding at this project.

When the negativity ends, either means ive given up or quit , or succeeded. Ughhh, those words are hard to type; note to self: use language like give up quit, or cant, at a minimum!

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1314288414' post='3518490']
Good point by nitefisher. Is your equipment Hogan? That one you can clone 100% in 1 lifetime. 5degrees flat, clubface open by 5degrees (?), heavy, D1sw, all woods heavy (as in with steel shafts), and the heads of irons are blades (double blades=opposite of cavity back=less mass on perimeter, more mass on sweetspot; not sure about exact term on this Hgan design, I've heard head of a needle is slightly bigger than sweet spot...lol)... And finally....drum roll........... The woods' heads are "wood"! Persimmon wood! Lol oh men, I really wish you luck...and god bless... Lol
[/quote]

Lol....my irons are the standard face angle, standard shaft, standard weight. I do have "real" 3 and 5 woods. I do understand that equipment is a major part of Hogans swing, but IMO, I think anyone can pick up a broomstick, or a copper pipe, or tree branch, and still have the same basic mechanic as if they were using their "regular" equipment.

Ask Elvis to get dressed in his personal stage outfit, including his personal shoes. Ask him to dance to one of his hit songs. Then ask him to remove his shoes and put yours on. Now he's dancing wearing your shoes, but he's hitting the same moves.......he just looks weird wearing your buster browns.
.
Imagine Hogan on the range working with his 5 iron. Tiger and Sean Foley are right next to him also hitting 5 iron, and arguing about what needs to be changed in his swing to win on the PGA tour again. Hogan asks if he can try the shiny, clean Nike 5 iron Tiger is hitting all over the place. TIger hands the 5i to Hogan. Do you think Hogan's swing mechanic will break? Do you think he will no longer swing it like Hogan? Do you think his signature moves will disappear? The outcome would be that Hogan whallops one about 180 yards, and says "Wow, this is cool buddy! It's kind of light, and the face angle is kind of different, but I could work with this!" Then Tiger would say, "Whoa! How the heck did you do that?!!!? If I could hit it like that, I could win again!" Hogan would say, ""Well the most important...uhhh...thing in the golf swing to me is the movement of the.....lower body......from the top of the swing. And if you don't mind, I'll demonstrate."

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1314299639' post='3518751']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1314288414' post='3518490']
Good point by nitefisher. Is your equipment Hogan? That one you can clone 100% in 1 lifetime. 5degrees flat, clubface open by 5degrees (?), heavy, D1sw, all woods heavy (as in with steel shafts), and the heads of irons are blades (double blades=opposite of cavity back=less mass on perimeter, more mass on sweetspot; not sure about exact term on this Hgan design, I've heard head of a needle is slightly bigger than sweet spot...lol)... And finally....drum roll........... The woods' heads are "wood"! Persimmon wood! Lol oh men, I really wish you luck...and god bless... Lol
[/quote]

Lol....my irons are the standard face angle, standard shaft, standard weight. I do have "real" 3 and 5 woods. I do understand that equipment is a major part of Hogans swing, but IMO, I think anyone can pick up a broomstick, or a copper pipe, or tree branch, and still have the same basic mechanic as if they were using their "regular" equipment.

Ask Elvis to get dressed in his personal stage outfit, including his personal shoes. Ask him to dance to one of his hit songs. Then ask him to remove his shoes and put yours on. Now he's dancing wearing your shoes, but he's hitting the same moves.......he just looks weird wearing your buster browns.
.
Imagine Hogan on the range working with his 5 iron. Tiger and Sean Foley are right next to him also hitting 5 iron, and arguing about what needs to be changed in his swing to win on the PGA tour again. Hogan asks if he can try the shiny, clean Nike 5 iron Tiger is hitting all over the place. TIger hands the 5i to Hogan. Do you think Hogan's swing mechanic will break? Do you think he will no longer swing it like Hogan? Do you think his signature moves will disappear? The outcome would be that Hogan whallops one about 180 yards, and says "Wow, this is cool buddy! It's kind of light, and the face angle is kind of different, but I could work with this!" Then Tiger would say, "Whoa! How the heck did you do that?!!!? If I could hit it like that, I could win again!" Hogan would say, ""Well the most important...uhhh...thing in the golf swing to me is the movement of the.....lower body......from the top of the swing. And if you don't mind, I'll demonstrate."
[/quote]

On that same note, when I was at the Players Championship few weeks ago watching Rory on the range hitting his custom-made $xxxx.xx driver, if he had yelled out to me, "hey plain ordinary guy in the stands, come over here and hit my expensive driver." If I went over and swung it, no matter what the weight and shaft and lie angle, I would still be using my sucky-looking swing and would probably get laughed at. Point is.....my sucky-swing wouldn't change because of the club.

[markponi]

But...having flat lies will cause (or should cause) your body to subconsciously adjust and shallow out the swing.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='markponi' timestamp='1314307792' post='3519174']
But...having flat lies will cause (or should cause) your body to subconsciously adjust and shallow out the swing.
[/quote]

At some point, I'll definitely get a club bent to 5 degrees flat and 5 degrees open and experiment with it.

[dap]

Some may think I am being negative regarding this project but I am just being realistic.Those who are being supportive are probably thinking the same thing I am but are afraid to say it.

I am also sure there are some Hogan fans out there who might even find it an insult to Hogan that an amateur player has the misguided belief that he can clone one of the greatest swings and talent of all time using a video camera and trigonometry but are just biting their tongue at the moment.

[grahler]

Can't say I disagree but my constructive criticism to the BHSP guy is to maybe look at things differently-instead of trying to for the full swing from the get go why not move backwards from impact. If you get into Hogan's impact and move backwards to his downswing position when hands are about waist high and work from there you will better be able to avoid pivot stalling and flipping. Going for full swing right from the get go is silly.

[nitefisher111]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1314317367' post='3519514']
[quote name='markponi' timestamp='1314307792' post='3519174']
But...having flat lies will cause (or should cause) your body to subconsciously adjust and shallow out the swing.
[/quote]

At some point, I'll definitely get a club bent to 5 degrees flat and 5 degrees open and experiment with it.
[/quote]

I think you are underestimating the importance of the equipment specs.

You will not be able to duplicate Hogan's release if your clubs are too upright. Your individual specs may vary as arm and torso length could affect this but you will 100% certainly need to go flatter than standard, likely 4-5* flat. If it were me, the first thing I would do is get a club (or all of them) bent 4-5* flat)

One thing that is not talked about much is how open Hogan's clubs were. Many people have tried to copy his swing but I don't recall any of them doing so with clubs that were bent 5* (or whatever they were) open. Hogan likely did this to help keep the face open and help tame his hook. To match Hogan's dynamic pivot, rotational speed and impact position, imho you may need to learn to hit the ball with clubs bent wide open.

I don't have any specific thoughts on the weight of the club other than to say his clubs were probably heavy and not just in the head. I know Martinzez has experimented with this and believes it's an important detail.

Keep pluggin' away...I'll plan to follow you progress and hope you do well with this!