Beginning my try at duplicating Hogan's Swing

[eightiron]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1316371644' post='3572014']
Take 8 video.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyLTu8xqrLc[/media]

3wood. Back focused in the takeaway. I've been wandering around the Nile for the past week. Playing around with lots of drills. Gotta get back on track. The takeaway is improving, but still not where I want it to be.

0:45 Right shoulder still easing itself up. I understand why this is happening now, just gotta work on it.

1:50 Club plane is different. Hogan's is turned down to line more. His wrists have hinged differently than mine. If I get to the top with less of a cupped left wrist, my club is right in the area as his. Gonna stay with the cupped wrist for now, but will learn both versions later.

During the takeaway, the top of my head is moving towards the target. Looks and feels kind of stack-n-tilty. Next phase of the takeaway is to cure these misses.
[/quote]


The practice stuff with the arms is wrong , it's just hurting your pivot .... Shows up why your neck and eye lines get off the grid and can see your face at the top of backswing ..... More look at the ball ... More lateral flex of the left side getting to the topof swing and stand further from the ball so you can look down at it

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1316448499' post='3573915']
[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1316371644' post='3572014']
Take 8 video.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyLTu8xqrLc[/media]

3wood. Back focused in the takeaway. I've been wandering around the Nile for the past week. Playing around with lots of drills. Gotta get back on track. The takeaway is improving, but still not where I want it to be.

0:45 Right shoulder still easing itself up. I understand why this is happening now, just gotta work on it.

1:50 Club plane is different. Hogan's is turned down to line more. His wrists have hinged differently than mine. If I get to the top with less of a cupped left wrist, my club is right in the area as his. Gonna stay with the cupped wrist for now, but will learn both versions later.

During the takeaway, the top of my head is moving towards the target. Looks and feels kind of stack-n-tilty. Next phase of the takeaway is to cure these misses.
[/quote]


The practice stuff with the arms is wrong , it's just hurting your pivot .... Shows up why your neck and eye lines get off the grid and can see your face at the top of backswing ..... More look at the ball ... More lateral flex of the left side getting to the topof swing and stand further from the ball so you can look down at it
[/quote]

What's the main benefits of doing that (lateral flex of left side?)? What's the practical and anatomical reason/s for doing that? Does it relate to the spine not being straight but double-curved (S-shape)?

[dap]

BHSP,your takeaway has too much hip turn compared to Hogan.You have more of a one piece takeaway.Hogan said he moved or felt he moved hands,arms,shoulders and hips in that order.Hogan had more of a hand,arm,shoulder takeaway.He didn't turn his hips much,at least not as much as you.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316491001' post='3576224']
BHSP,your takeaway has too much hip turn compared to Hogan.You have more of a one piece takeaway.Hogan said he moved or felt he moved hands,arms,shoulders and hips in that order.Hogan had more of a hand,arm,shoulder takeaway.He didn't turn his hips much,at least not as much as you.
[/quote]

Yep....I see what you mean. My hips start turning immediately upon taking the club back. Lol, I didn't see the hip thing cause I'm so frustrated with what my head and right shoulder are doing.

The other flaws in my takeaway are:
1. Leaning the upper body towards the target, or either keeping the upper body in place too much.

Tonite, I've experimented with different head and hip movements. All of them look close on video now, but feel ABSOLUTELY wrong. But my "right" has been what I have learned over the past few years. Gotta retrain myself to know that this "absolutely wrong" feeling is the new "right!"

[tembolo1284]

How's it going?

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

One of my friends asked,"If you want to get better at golf, and if you want to learn the Hogan mechanics, why not just hire a swing instructor that teaches the one-plane method, or one that has an in-depth understanding of what Hogan was doing and his secret. Would save you lots of time so you could get out on the course and enjoy the game."

My response: I did think about getting a "one-plane swing" instructor, but realized that I would be missing the critical lessons learned from my infinite failures.

Example: If I had a parachute on my back and were dropped on a large Egyptian island that measured 390,000 sq miles, with a map that showed exactly how to get to the fun-filled golf resort on the other side, I would miss all of the incredible journey in between.

In my case, I want to jump out of the plane with the map in my hand, then as I am coming in for landing, the map is suddenly torn away from me by a quick wind and taken off into the distant ocean. I land and stand there dumbfounded and lost. I've heard so much about the golf resort; it's absolutely magical there! I fold my parachute, get out a bottle of water, and start the journey. As I walk, I stumble across lots of cool treasures along the way. Lol, who knows, in my case, I may just wander around the 390,000 sq mile land mass forever, never even getting close to the golf resort, but that is ok too, cause along the way, I met lots of new people, made a bunch of cool friends, and even some cool enemies, discover lots of interesting towns, and learned a lot about myself. I can either stand and stare at this Nile River, or dive into it and start swimming upstream lol.

And....there is no Hogan secret.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

I remember someone here telling me that I should focus on Hogans concentraton drills in order to gain a better understanding of his mechanics. They were right. From the address, to takeaway, to "the top", regular swing vs concentration are spot on. This should be all I need to master this part of the swing.

Regular swing is on the left. Concentration drill is on the right.


[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSZo43FwmTk[/media]

[tembolo1284]

So what's up? You hitting rocket online/push fades yet?

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1317147975' post='3594914']
So what's up? You hitting rocket online/push fades yet?
[/quote]

Yes, and the ball is making a sound as it starts it's flight, kinda like the sound a bullet makes when it whizes by your ear. Never had that sound before coming from my ball. And I'm not swinging any harder than I used to.

Ball flight is much better, and I am now confident on the course, but I'm still stuck on the takeaway; nowhere near Hogan's yet. I understand exactly how his takeaway is happening, but have not yet trained my body and saved enough of the feeling into muscle-memory.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

For the past couple of weeks, I've been really frustrated with the takeaway, and my lack of focus was getting me nowhere. I would go to the basement with the mindset of "ok.....gotta focus on the takeaway until I get it. I will be doing nothing else with that stinkin 3wood until the takeaway is acceptable. NO full swings, no ball contact, NOTHING else. Get some Marine Corps focus about yourself!!"

And I would start my usual routine.

1. Set the computer up in DTL view.
2. Turn on the 100 degree spotlight that probably gives the neighbors the impression that I am lighting a nuclear reactor.
3. Press record on the computer.
4. Walk over and get into the address position. Hold it for a few seconds.
5. Go back to the computer. Stop recording. Draw a plane line from the hozel of the club, straight through my back.
6. Press record again.
7. Walk back over and get into address position, but this time, perform the full takeaway/upswing in concentration-drill tempo. Do this movement 5-6 times. Then do same movement in real body speed.
8. Go back to the computer. Stop recording. Run the video back of the concentration drill and watch as the club begins its climb.
9. Is club on the plane line? Yell "YES!!"
10. Is my right forearm in position? Yell "YES!!"
11. Is my right hand/wrist in position? Yell "YES!!"
12. Is my left shoulder nice and flat? Yell "YES!!"
13. Is my left shoulder still flat? Yell "YES!!"
14. When hands get to lower back, is club still on plane line? Yell "YES!!"
15. Is right leg starting to become a giant kickstand? Yell "YES!!"
16. Is left knee tired of playing hide-n-seek....now poking out pointing towards the target line? Yell "YES!!"
17. Watch my wife walk through the basement door, and over to the washer and dryer. As she walks back towards the door with a basket of clean clothes, she says "Ummmmmm, who are you yelling 'yes' to down here?" I say "the takaway concentration drill is getting close!! Couple more weeks!!" She gives me the blank stare again, and walks upstairs, cosing the door behind her. Then she opens the door, sticks her head through, and says "You know, there are medically supervised facilities for people like you," then closes the door again lol.
18. As video frames are forwarded, is club maintaing its glued-to-the-line relationship? Yell "YES!!"
19. Once club gets to the top, is left wrist in correct position, and right leg kickstand loaded? Am I in a position to spring the motherbluffing spit out of the shaft! Yell "YES!!"
20. Say to myself, "ok concentration drill mastered. All positions are acceptable. Looks close to Hogan!"
21. Now fast-forward to the part of the recording where I did the real speed movement.
22. Do same frame-by-frame analysis.
23. Watch as club remains glued to plane line, and wrists do exactly what they are supposed to, and legs/knees cooperate.
24. Then withing a half-a-second, watch as everything gets off plane and all positions get out of whack.
25. Cuss
26. Scratch my head and wonder "I can do it in concentration speed, but WHEN THE HECK WILL I BE ABLE TO DO IT AT REGULAR SPEED!?"
27. Go back to step #7 and repeat everything a few times, then get tired of cussing, and forget about the takeaway all together, and just start hitting balls, like I promised myself I would not do lol.


This is what I've done the past few weeks..........until today!!! I didn't cuss! Takeaway is close now. The lesson I've learned going through all this is "what I feel is not real." Video coming soon.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1317398965' post='3607925']

26. Scratch my head and wonder "I can do it in concentration speed, but WHEN THE HECK WILL I BE ABLE TO DO IT AT REGULAR SPEED!?"
27. Go back to step #7 and repeat everything a few times, then get tired of cussing, and forget about the takeaway all together, and just start hitting balls, like I promised myself I would not do lol.


This is what I've done the past few weeks..........until today!!! I didn't cuss! Takeaway is close now. The lesson I've learned going through all this is "what I feel is not real." Video coming soon.
[/quote]

I hope You've get it right. People quite often forgets the forces. It's backswing, not back move.

Like in every part of the swing, there is forces and You have to create forces to balance them. Quite often it means You have to do many things to opposite directions than they go at the end.

[IH82BOGEY]

BHSP,
Instead of running back and forth to the computer for every recording, try a set up so you can see yourself live. I do this with a long firewire from the camera to the computer. I use V1 software on the live setting with the camera on after drawing in lines, markers etc. I put a monitor out of the laptop on a stand that allows me to see myself without getting out of posture from different angles. I think of it as a live version of the concentration drill. This works for me when I am working on the feel of somehting new or a problem that has come up. I record then at full speed when I know I have it pretty close because a full speed swing will be a little different.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='IH82BOGEY' timestamp='1317424122' post='3609599']
BHSP,
Instead of running back and forth to the computer for every recording, try a set up so you can see yourself live. I do this with a long firewire from the camera to the computer. I use V1 software on the live setting with the camera on after drawing in lines, markers etc. I put a monitor out of the laptop on a stand that allows me to see myself without getting out of posture from different angles. I think of it as a live version of the concentration drill. This works for me when I am working on the feel of somehting new or a problem that has come up. I record then at full speed when I know I have it pretty close because a full speed swing will be a little different.
[/quote]

Yep, thanks for the info. I've looked into this about a month ago. Still working the camcorder/firewire combo into the budget. I also use V1, but I'm recording from my PC's built-in webcam. When I am recording, I do have the option to turn my head and glance over at the monitor, but that glance changes the dynamics. It's gonna be cool and waaay more efficient when I get the same setup you have.

As i type this, I now realize that being able to watch myself [b]as I am swinging[/b] is a MUST. I need to be able to do this WHILE keeping my eyes on the ball. The idea I have is to have a monitor on the floor, right beside the ball. As I look at the ball, I also see the montor. Doing this will keep me looking in the right direction. But this will only be useful while working on the takeaway/upswing, or when I am doing concentration drills.

The camcorder/firewire combo is now moved to the top of the budget list.

[chris_golf]

Isn´t it possible to connect 2 cameras to your V1 version in split mode?
Look here how Sean O´Hair practice with the V1 software...
[url="http://www.pgatour.com/video/r/shows/inside_the_pga_tour/2010/06/28/feat_ohair_indoor_range_08inside19.pgatour/index.html"]Sean O Hair indoor practice...[/url]

Here is the thread:
[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/445549-sean-ohairs-indoor-range"]http://www.golfwrx.c...rs-indoor-range[/url]

After you hit the ball, it plays your last swing in split mode...
I think you can buy this kind of security cameras (60 frames/sec.) second hand.
Would be perfect for your purpose...

Chris

[Petter Player]

I used to have a couple of VHS videos back in the 90's. Unfortunately for me they were Golf My Way and Perfect Swing. Put some ten years down the drain, but still think it was intresting to go out to the range at one am. and hit some balls under the unforgiving eye of a Sony handycam and the midnight sun.

I adotped a lot of what The Bear and DL told to do. But still all I learned was a stack of positions and a movement that looked like what I had seen on the tapes. As far from a golf swing as can be. The dynamics and power creating sequence was not there. No power transition to the ball and no consistency.

Then I started reading another forum, where people were talking about how to prevent your club getting ahead your hands and how to tilt a triangle... After the vivid threads on that forum there was a live session on what a couple of teaching pros ment in their postings. The pros were presenting all in real live. It was about only then, I got the whole idea of golf swing into my mind. it only took 3 years to figure and another two to get it deployed on the course.

So, in my opinion, there must be a great deal of understanding before you can find and figure out what is ment by printed words.

Another thing is that the mental set up is not correct, if you start with the don'ts.

You'll need stamina and determination to go the way, it is a rocky and bumpy ride, but it will eventually pay off. The swing is something live and seem to have a mind of it's own. If you don't work on the fundamentals after you managed to reach some level it'll just sway and vary from what once was. Never ending project, I'd say.

My improvement in the perspective of handicap: At swing project start hcp 12.6, now 4.8. four years in between and a lot of agony and despair, but also delight. Now, as the swing project is sort of over I can concentrate on becoming a golfer.

PS. Someone was doubtfull of your body and mind coping. FYI I'm now 44 and drive the ball past 300 yds-marker, Sumer average might be something like 275.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='Petter Player' timestamp='1317788002' post='3626877']
I used to have a couple of VHS videos back in the 90's. Unfortunately for me they were Golf My Way and Perfect Swing. Put some ten years down the drain, but still think it was intresting to go out to the range at one am. and hit some balls under the unforgiving eye of a Sony handycam and the midnight sun.

I adotped a lot of what The Bear and DL told to do. But still all I learned was a stack of positions and a movement that looked like what I had seen on the tapes. As far from a golf swing as can be. The dynamics and power creating sequence was not there. No power transition to the ball and no consistency.

Then I started reading another forum, where people were talking about how to prevent your club getting ahead your hands and how to tilt a triangle... After the vivid threads on that forum there was a live session on what a couple of teaching pros ment in their postings. The pros were presenting all in real live. It was about only then, I got the whole idea of golf swing into my mind. it only took 3 years to figure and another two to get it deployed on the course.

So, in my opinion, there must be a great deal of understanding before you can find and figure out what is ment by printed words.

Another thing is that the mental set up is not correct, if you start with the don'ts.

You'll need stamina and determination to go the way, it is a rocky and bumpy ride, but it will eventually pay off. The swing is something live and seem to have a mind of it's own. If you don't work on the fundamentals after you managed to reach some level it'll just sway and vary from what once was. Never ending project, I'd say.

My improvement in the perspective of handicap: At swing project start hcp 12.6, now 4.8. four years in between and a lot of agony and despair, but also delight. Now, as the swing project is sort of over I can concentrate on becoming a golfer.

PS. Someone was doubtfull of your body and mind coping. FYI I'm now 44 and drive the ball past 300 yds-marker, Sumer average might be something like 275.
[/quote]

Petter Player,

thanks for the encouraging words. I look forward to when you can post a video of your swing on this forum or on youtube.

[Petter Player]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1317821813' post='3627867']
Petter Player,

thanks for the encouraging words. I look forward to when you can post a video of your swing on this forum or on youtube.
[/quote]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAuP-ANga3M&NR=1"]Driver shot[/url] in Aug 2008, especially like the sound from impact.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Wt-cdgRpAY"]Iron practise[/url] 2-yrs back during winter

Best drives on course has travelled like 350 yds or even more. But the conditions were optimal, warm weather, tailwind and hard fairways.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Whew......it's been a while since my last video. Been busy with kids, wife, business, and life. I'm still working on the takeaway/upswing in the early morning and late evening.

In this vid, I'm still focusing on the takeaway. It's getting more comfortable, but there are still a few areas of it that need tweeking. I have been out on the course a few times, and I am absolutely amazed at how the ball is flying off the club, and how it is sounding. I can hear the ball as it bullets away from the ground. Has a whir sound.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyXcf1zoHDU[/media]

I'm glad the weather is changing to cold, so I am forced to stay inside and avoid the course. One problem that the course is giving me is that I still get the urge to play in our foursome, which means, as much as I try not to, I end up wanting to compete and win the money/trophy. I've consistently won it every time now. Bruce says "Man, if I was hitting the ball like you are now, I would be happy.....you need to forget all the Hogan stuff!" Just as I have always said, the goal here is not to play better golf and make incredible contact, the goal is to see how close I can come to the Hogan swing.........but I won't complain one bit if my game keeps going in the exciting direction that it is!

Also, I've stumbled across a few things that Hogan was doing. None of them are secrets, because they are right there in his videos.....

[hoganfan924]

Great job, BHSP! Getting very close now. Love the belly button high sans-a-belt's too! hehe

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1319169856' post='3700073']
Great job, BHSP! Getting very close now. Love the belly button high sans-a-belt's too! hehe
[/quote]

Lol...thanks! I should have shown the end of the video when Kim drove in the garage. She pulled in while I was in mid practice mode. I turned around and her eyes went direct to the belt above my navel. I hit one of those model poses out of a golf magazine, where you put the club on your shoulder and turn your head and look into the distance. She rolled the window down, and said, "Why..............................................................why me??????" LOLOL, it was perfect!! Then my 4th grade daughter burst out laughing, so I told her I am taking a vacation day tomorrow to come eat lunch with her, and I'm wearing exactly what I have on now, with the pants up a little higher lololol.


On a serious note, I have always pulled the pants up high around the navel not just to match what Hogan is wearing, but because it makes it easier to analyze and compare. A delicate detail I realized a few weeks ago is that when I pull the pants up like that, there are specific creases in my pants that I am able to use as data during the entire swing, mainly around the right hip/thigh/hamstring area. Same for the shirt.......the creases and tension tell a lot about what is going on. Danm, who would have thought I would have to analyze the dudes clothing lol.

[Lefthook]

This is one of the most fascinating threads at gwrx at the moment!

Btw, I think you need to straighten up your lower back a bit to be more Hogan like at address. He seems to have a bit of natural lordosis in the lumbar region at address.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='Lefthook' timestamp='1319172291' post='3700215']
This is one of the most fascinating threads at gwrx at the moment!

Btw, I think you need to straighten up your lower back a bit to be more Hogan like at address. He seems to have a bit of natural lordosis in the lumbar region at address.
[/quote]

Agree 100%

[Lefty_Lion]

You should post FO as well!

Keep it up man!

Btw anyone noticed that they took "Hogan's Mystique" off YouTube !!!

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='Lefty_Lion' timestamp='1319211854' post='3701261']
You should post FO as well!

Keep it up man!

Btw anyone noticed that they took "Hogan's Mystique" off YouTube !!!
[/quote]


Oh believe me, I will be posting EVERY position. I've put together an extensive study guide and outline. Right now, DTL is it until I get it as close as possible. Then Front-On, Front-Left, Rear, etc.

Eventually, I will be remaking EVERY Hogan video on youtube. I'm gonna go to a course and set the background to look just like his videos. Same angles and everything. Will also be doing the ones where he is in the studio with the grid background, and the even the closeup where the camera is over his right shoulder.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='Lefty_Lion' timestamp='1319211854' post='3701261']
You should post FO as well!

Keep it up man!

Btw anyone noticed that they took "Hogan's Mystique" off YouTube !!!
[/quote]

Who took it off? And why?

[Lefty_Lion]

No idea and I'm f'in pissed as well!

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

My response to the statement [i]"no one could have figured out Hogan or else they would hit it as well as him."[/i] :

Any golf swing can be duplicated, including Hogan's, and even Charles Barkleys. And I know everyone will say "who would want to swing just like Barkley lol??" It's not a question as to who would [i]want [/i]to swing like him, rather if you could train your body to do so.

Actually, any human mechanical movement, as well as language, speaking accent, etc. Anyone in this forum can duplicate Hogan. This is expecially true for those that happen to have the same anatomical build, including height, and flexibility. I think the problem is that they haven't broken the swing down enough and put enough repetitive experimentation into it to understand it. I think Martin Ayers has gotten the closest.

The key to this duplication is to break the swing down on paper as far as you can, do as much research/video analysis as you can, and armchair quarterbacking as you can to get the ideas flowing, then remove yourself from behind the computer screen and get many, many, many corns and calluses upon the hands until the mechanical movements match.

A question for everyone: If Hogan himself walked up to you on the driving range and said, "hey young buck, what the hell are you doing to the golf swing! I will show you exactly how I swing the club." Then he grabs your hand, puts it on the club, and walks you through the entire mechanical movement. The question: If you were able to do exactly as he instructs, and were able to mirror his swing, would you believe you were swinging like Hogan, or would you say "nahhhhhh, I'm not swinging like Hogan cause I'm just a plain ordinary guy, and it's HIS swing and he is the greatest golfer that has ever lived."

Now if the statement would have said, "no one could have figured out Hogan's [b]mental game and thought patterns[/b]........" then I would absolutely agree, because we can't measure them. But we can measure every single mechanical movement.

Now, let's say someone (wink-wink) does happen to duplicate the Hogan swing; does this mean they will go on tour and become #1 in the world? A loud resounding NO, unless they have the mental game to match, and can play every type of shot, from every type of lie, out of every type of condition/surface, in front of thousands of cameras/people, under the pressures of having to win to pay a mortgage, eat, etc. My Hogan swing project has nothing to do with matching his mental game, but merely the simple swing.

Conclusion.............allow your mind to train your body and never tell it what it can't do, because both will believe it. Hmmmm. I may have to patent that one lol!

[tembolo1284]

So how's your ball flight?

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1319474959' post='3711533'] So how's your ball flight? [/quote]

Lol...I think you've asked this question before lol.

I'm not yet at the transition/downswing/impact stage yet, but just from experimenting with with the full swing right now, I can hear the ball as it bullets away from the ground. Has a whir sound. Sounds like one of those model rockets or bullet whizzing by the ear. All are either straight or 5-10yd fades. Only experimenting with 3W, 5W, 4hy, and 3hy. Heck, I'm enjoying going to the range just to listen to the ball as it disappears lol. I've never had that sound before.

And I may be reaching here, but you may be asking this question because you see it a possibility to duplicate the Hogan swing, but not his ball flight. I have no method of measuring his ball flight, only the full swing motion.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1319477357' post='3711683']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1319474959' post='3711533'] So how's your ball flight? [/quote]

Lol...I think you've asked this question before lol.

I'm not yet at the transition/downswing/impact stage yet, but just from experimenting with with the full swing right now, I can hear the ball as it bullets away from the ground. Has a whir sound. Sounds like one of those model rockets or bullet whizzing by the ear. All are either straight or 5-10yd fades. Only experimenting with 3W, 5W, 4hy, and 3hy. Heck, I'm enjoying going to the range just to listen to the ball as it disappears lol. I've never had that sound before.

And I may be reaching here, but you may be asking this question [b]because you see it a possibility to duplicate the Hogan swing, but not his ball flight[/b]. I have no method of measuring his ball flight, only the full swing motion.
[/quote]


I think you can and will do both! Just that if you have his swing down and the ball isn't drifting right, then you dont' have the swing down!

Keep at it and post more vids.