Beginning my try at duplicating Hogan's Swing

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='Pinsplitter59' timestamp='1324068888' post='3949375']
glad you liked the pic,
your kids sound kool.
here's an update.
[attachment=952061:bhsproject_ideal3.jpg]
[/quote]

Man.....this is just too stinkin cool! Make sure when you're at that beach that you tee up a ProV1 in the sand and hit it to the sharks!

And Kim says you made it even worse lol. Says she has seen enough Hogan for this lifetime. Reminds me of last month when I told her we were gonna have a movie date-nite while the kids were away with Grandparents. I said I had a special DVD that I had ordered. We sat on the sofa with some Johnny Corinos takeout ready to start the movie. She asked what kind of movie it was. I said it was one that got real high reviews. I handed her the remote and said "just press play." Some 60's background music started playing, then a big orange Shell logo showed. When the 'A Shell Sports Presentation' came onto the bottom of the screen, she said "ummmmm, what the hell is this about??" Then it showed Hogan on the first tee....LOLLOLOL! She tried to hit me in the head with the remote. Should've had a camcorder on her for that one! Of course it was all a joke.

[Pinsplitter59]

i hope your beloved, patient, forebearing, charming delightful wife does not realise you have discovered the other secret.
Golf is better than Sex.
there are many reasons for this.
- Golf lasts 4 hours or more.
- Golf never has headaches.
- Golf is never too tired.
- Golf doesn't need flowers and chocolates.
- Golf is always waiting for you and never complains.

I bet you remember your best golf shots far more vividly than your best other stuff.
that's the sign.

[markponi]

[quote name='Pinsplitter59' timestamp='1324078644' post='3950117']
i hope your beloved, patient, forebearing, charming delightful wife does not realise you have discovered the other secret.
Golf is better than Sex.
there are many reasons for this.
- Golf lasts 4 hours or more.
- Golf never has headaches.
- Golf is never too tired.
- Golf doesn't need flowers and chocolates.
- Golf is always waiting for you and never complains.

I bet you remember your best golf shots far more vividly than your best other stuff.
that's the sign.
[/quote]

You aren't comparing golf to sex friend. That sounds like comparing golf to a woman.

[fats]

Pretty much Mac's swing model here.
[attachment=952553:untitled.png]

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='fats' timestamp='1324103053' post='3951677']
Pretty much Mac's swing model here.
[attachment=952553:untitled.png]
[/quote]

what you mean?

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1324118201' post='3951945']
[quote name='fats' timestamp='1324103053' post='3951677']
Pretty much Mac's swing model here.
[attachment=952553:untitled.png]
[/quote]

what you mean?
[/quote]

Fats,

Is that Hogan in the photo? Doesn't look like Hogan...
Do you mean Hogan is pretty much Mac's swing model?

[fats]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1324138485' post='3952577']
[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1324118201' post='3951945']
[quote name='fats' timestamp='1324103053' post='3951677']
Pretty much Mac's swing model here.
[attachment=952553:untitled.png]
[/quote]

what you mean?
[/quote]

Fats,

Is that Hogan in the photo? Doesn't look like Hogan...
Do you mean Hogan is pretty much Mac's swing model?
[/quote]

I believe that's Snead w/o hat

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Made it to the course on Friday afternoon, but not to play. I watched Bruce and my Dad battle each other for December bragging rights. Too perfect a day for them to pass it up. 69-70 degrees with very little wind. They were a little baffled by my choice not to play. They know about my swing reconstruction goal and only tried to talk me into it about 100 times. But luckily, I didn't even bring my clubs, cause I'm not ready to focus on ball flight/course management yet. But I did need to get out of the solitary basement atmosphere to smell the green grass and listen to some fiendly trash talking.

They only played the front nine. After 8 holes, they were tied. My Dad won on the 9th hole by 1 stroke, after Bruce's 2nd shot pin-balled off a pine tree. Didn't bother me not playing cause I got to do lots of caddying and swing analysis. I've put so much time into looking at swing video the past few months that I'm starting to get an understand of what I am looking at, and how to pick out the things that are fundamentally good and bad. I'm definitely not a swing instructor, but one of my main goals, besides the Hogan duplication attempt, is to help my Dad with his golf game. He is 67 years old, freshly retired, and shoots in the 95-101 range. He has fun playing the game, but what I see now in his swing is absolutely no weight shift. He swings off his back foot, which makes him very armsy. He is working is butt off swinging with all upper body. I don't know how he makes it through 18 holes without being tired and drained.

He said he saw my Take 14 video and that my swing looks different, but that I will probably not be able to transition it from the basement to the course. Says he's working on his game too, and that he will be giving us extra strokes to keep things competitive. We'll see.......

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id8_kwyZdkU&feature=youtu.be[/media]

I reluctantly hung out with Kim on Saturday; I don't mind spending quality time with her, but I do mind SHOPPING NONSTOP FOR 8 STINKIN HOURS!

I swallowed the above rant because when she stopped by a goodwill/thrift store, I got a chance to browse the "thrifty" golf area. There were a few used, off-brand clubs and bags that had been abandonded by their owners.

I stumbled across the following:

a Ben Hogan AMF 1-wood (cracked hozel area),
a Ben Hogan AMF 1-wood, (good)
a Ben Hogan AMF 3-wood, (good)
a Ben Hogan AMF 4-wood (missing screw in sole)

All appear to have the original AMF grip, based on the "[i]exclusive Hogan AMF design[/i]" stamped on the end of the grip. I'm not sure if these are men's or women's clubs.

The 4-wood feels just like my TaylorMade 5-metal.

[tembolo1284]

So how's the progress?

[tembolo1284]

Hey man I never asked...which Hogan are you looking at to copy? Before he found out the secret? After the secret, after the crash, after he stopped playing competitively?

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1324313759' post='3960527']
Hey man I never asked...which Hogan are you looking at to copy? Before he found out the secret? After the secret, after the crash, after he stopped playing competitively?
[/quote]

I'm analyzing and experimenting with all of them, but so far, based on my flexibility and muscular boob, I may be working towards these (I have no idea what year they are, and if they are pre or post secret):

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzECwED22UE[/media]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9g7CZGx5WI[/media]

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

I could also work towards this one too:

7:25 thru 8:55
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXYWhqA50w8[/media]


I don't think my swolen upper body will allow my shoulders to do this:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w92wg52nYxU[/media]

Basically, I think I can physically get close to however he was swinging in his 40, 50, and 60 year-old range:
But I'm using something from all the different eras to get an understanding.

[tembolo1284]

watch out...don't let those muscular boobs get too out of control

oh man...that gave me a good hearty chuckle.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1324317636' post='3960879']
watch out...don't let those muscular boobs get too out of control

oh man...that gave me a good hearty chuckle.
[/quote]

Lol! Heck, I havent done a heavy bench press or dumbbell fly in months! I gotta find a fitness class that can get rid of the swoleness, and make me a birdy chest.

And WHERE IS YER stinkin swing video Sir?? You said you were gonna post it!

[tembolo1284]

yap, just got back. Got some footage to post.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1324321083' post='3961115']
yap, just got back. Got some footage to post.
[/quote]

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEHAAWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1324690423' post='3981549']
[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1324675189' post='3980757']
[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1324655938' post='3979823']


So what's up with your stinkin swing? How do you do the takeaway now? Where you at now? How do you think Hogan did it?
[/quote]

What's up with my stinkin swing ?? It stinks! Still over the top, and no angle hinge yet. Heck, I've got another list of 20 issues I'm stuck on. The takeaway is still a mystery for me. I have been breaking it down and have lots of ideas, but, I'm still researching it. I plan to put up a video of my analysis of Hogans takeaway and describe what I see him doing.
[/quote]

I don't think it stinks. I just like the sound of it when i ask.

Hogan is not angle hinging on stock shots. It just looks like that because of his low plane, low hands, hands closer to pelvis, flatter lies, his relatively short height, relatively longer arms, and coming from the elbow plane in the DS. But most of all, his hip action opened it, rather, made it stay square longer at impact zone. In that sense you can say its angle hinging. It's what you'll see, especially with irons where there's divots (club hitting the ground, hence making clubface remain square more, but that's post impact). But it's not angle hinging in the strict sense because his hands, specifically left hand, is not "holding off". It's rolling hard. Horizontal hinge, not angle hinge, INTENT and MUSCLE motion.

What made you convinced Hogan is angle hinging? Didn't he say you supinate? Any hold-off move will make you flip. To prevent the flip, you have to bow the wrist. To avoid skulling the ball, you have to intentionally fully unc0ck the ball. If you fully unc0ck, the unc0cking motion is very very fast. So, you have to time that very fast unc0cking motion exactly in order for you to hit the sweet spot. For a forged club, moreso with a blade, the sweet spot is very small. Hogan used "double blades". Also, if you fully unc0ck, your stock divots will be humongous. Hogan's divots on stock shots are very shallow. To avoid the huge divots, you'll have to intentionally "lift" your hands to "lift" the clubhead and avoid the huge divots, which incidentally can hurt your wrist. And you also have to time that exactly. Mistiming means either skulked shots (too early), or fat shots (too soon). And that's for the "lifting". For the "fully unc0cking" timing part, too soon also will result to fats, too late to skulls. So you're timing two things, that makes it double difficult.

Now tell me, would you like all of those things going on that you have to time exactly, instead of just turning and rolling?
[/quote]

My apology, but I really have no idea what the actual definition of "angle hinging" is. I just heard some other guys using this term as they discussed Hogan at impact. So, for me, a better description would be to not even use golf "terms," but to describe what I see.

I associate the angle hinge position as in the images below. I am no instructor, so I don't know what it should officially be called, but I want to get into this position. Right elbow glued to the right hip at impact. In my Take 1 video, my right elbow was waaaaaay far from my right hip. It's gotten closer to what I want, but not there yet, and I'm not focusing on it yet. Right now, the wrist movement in the takeaway is top priority.

[attachment=959157:angled elbows.jpg]

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1324697393' post='3982087']
[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1324690423' post='3981549']
[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1324675189' post='3980757']
[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1324655938' post='3979823']


So what's up with your stinkin swing? How do you do the takeaway now? Where you at now? How do you think Hogan did it?
[/quote]

What's up with my stinkin swing ?? It stinks! Still over the top, and no angle hinge yet. Heck, I've got another list of 20 issues I'm stuck on. The takeaway is still a mystery for me. I have been breaking it down and have lots of ideas, but, I'm still researching it. I plan to put up a video of my analysis of Hogans takeaway and describe what I see him doing.
[/quote]

I don't think it stinks. I just like the sound of it when i ask.

Hogan is not angle hinging on stock shots. It just looks like that because of his low plane, low hands, hands closer to pelvis, flatter lies, his relatively short height, relatively longer arms, and coming from the elbow plane in the DS. But most of all, his hip action opened it, rather, made it stay square longer at impact zone. In that sense you can say its angle hinging. It's what you'll see, especially with irons where there's divots (club hitting the ground, hence making clubface remain square more, but that's post impact). But it's not angle hinging in the strict sense because his hands, specifically left hand, is not "holding off". It's rolling hard. Horizontal hinge, not angle hinge, INTENT and MUSCLE motion.

What made you convinced Hogan is angle hinging? Didn't he say you supinate? Any hold-off move will make you flip. To prevent the flip, you have to bow the wrist. To avoid skulling the ball, you have to intentionally fully unc0ck the ball. If you fully unc0ck, the unc0cking motion is very very fast. So, you have to time that very fast unc0cking motion exactly in order for you to hit the sweet spot. For a forged club, moreso with a blade, the sweet spot is very small. Hogan used "double blades". Also, if you fully unc0ck, your stock divots will be humongous. Hogan's divots on stock shots are very shallow. To avoid the huge divots, you'll have to intentionally "lift" your hands to "lift" the clubhead and avoid the huge divots, which incidentally can hurt your wrist. And you also have to time that exactly. Mistiming means either skulked shots (too early), or fat shots (too soon). And that's for the "lifting". For the "fully unc0cking" timing part, too soon also will result to fats, too late to skulls. So you're timing two things, that makes it double difficult.

Now tell me, would you like all of those things going on that you have to time exactly, instead of just turning and rolling?
[/quote]

My apology, but I really have no idea what the actual definition of "angle hinging" is. I just heard some other guys using this term as they discussed Hogan at impact. So, for me, a better description would be to not even use golf "terms," but to describe what I see.

I associate the angle hinge position as in the images below. I am no instructor, so I don't know what it should officially be called, but I want to get into this position. Right elbow glued to the right hip at impact. In my Take 1 video, my right elbow was waaaaaay far from my right hip. It's gotten closer to what I want, but not there yet, and I'm not focusing on it yet. Right now, the wrist movement in the takeaway is top priority.

[attachment=959157:angled elbows.jpg]
[/quote]

That right elbow appearance/position is a result of all I said in my above post, plus NOT making it hinder what the left arm and pivot is doing. In other words, it is just joyriding. But ideal to practice is to not let the right elbow and wrist to release/unbend/straighten. Yeah, let it just go along for the ride. It will always be like that at impact zone because the pivot is pulling, the left arm is pulling-rolling, the hands are low, hands are close to pelvis (Byron Nelson, who is closest of them all, you will note, also has the biggest bend in the right elbow).

You gotta NOT LET the left wrist to unc0ck too much because doing so will make you lose the natural flat or slightly bowed left wrist. Do everything you can to maintain the left wrist c0ck. It will unc0ck, you can't prevent that. But don't allow it to unc0ck more than when you're left wrist/hand is clenched like a fist with back of left hand and wrist flat. Then supinate it hard. You'll get close to the Hogan finish, naturally, not forced.

As to takeaway, just do the waggle with armpits connected, right elbow not going away or pulling back relative to right hip, and do this WHILE turning the shoulders. Effort is flattening the left wrist, but it's cupped a little due to your weak grip and weaker right hand grip.

Whew! Gave you my lifetime's research!

[Pinsplitter59]

how's the basement going my poor devoted fellow?
its so like a medieval christian saint self-flagellating and doing penance.
so i thought i would share my new practice regime with you.
tried out my new macgregor VIP's the other night and they were looking good.
[attachment=959817:CIMG0864-2.JPG]

[Pinsplitter59]

its Soi Cowboy, Bangkok BTW in case u wanna look it up.

[svsvincenzo]

BHSP, what's your height? Reason is asked is IMO only someone with same height or smaller can get close to same "look" as Hogan. Why?

Because his planes are defined by his overall heights (he's 5'7"), his hands' height when dropped down (his is relatively long) and length of his clubs. So, your height and arms length should relatively be the same as his clubs. If you're taller by 5 inches for example, your clubs must be longer by the same. If your arms are longer by 2 inches, your clubs must be shorter by the same.

So, if your clubs are of same length, and you're taller, your planes should be relatively flatter or lower relative to your height. Your plane must match the clubs, not your height. Hence, your planes will "look" flatter or lower than Hogan. If Hogan's planes pass thru his shoulders, yours will pass thru below your shoulder even if you're taller. This exactly the opposite of what has been taught out there.

Just my 2 cents.

[svsvincenzo]

And to add--Hogan's planes "look" not so much low/flat on top because his arms are longer relative to his body/height. So, even if he's not lifting the right elbow, he's still gonna look less flat/low.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='Pinsplitter59' timestamp='1324801779' post='3985439']
its Soi Cowboy, Bangkok BTW in case u wanna look it up.
[/quote]


Looks like the red light district!

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1324963781' post='3991271']
BHSP, what's your height? Reason is asked is IMO only someone with same height or smaller can get close to same "look" as Hogan. Why?

Because his planes are defined by his overall heights (he's 5'7"), his hands' height when dropped down (his is relatively long) and length of his clubs. So, your height and arms length should relatively be the same as his clubs. If you're taller by 5 inches for example, your clubs must be longer by the same. If your arms are longer by 2 inches, your clubs must be shorter by the same.

So, if your clubs are of same length, and you're taller, your planes should be relatively flatter or lower relative to your height. Your plane must match the clubs, not your height. Hence, your planes will "look" flatter or lower than Hogan. If Hogan's planes pass thru his shoulders, yours will pass thru below your shoulder even if you're taller. This exactly the opposite of what has been taught out there.

Just my 2 cents.
[/quote]

I'm 5' 7-1/2" (I always just say 5'8"), 175lbs, Muscular build. The muscular part is a problem. My chest and biceps are getting in the way when I get to the top of the swing.

Everything you said about height and arm length and club length make sense.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

I've been reviewing my share of Hogan videos and have yet to see a full swing of him with his left heel planted.

Has anyone seen any full-swing vid of Hogan where his left heel DOESN'T raise as he gets to the top?

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1325015866' post='3993263']
I've been reviewing my share of Hogan videos and have yet to see a full swing of him with his left heel planted.

Has anyone seen any full-swing vid of Hogan where his left heel DOESN'T raise as he gets to the top?
[/quote]

Even in his 3/4 swings, left heel is coming up, then slamming back down like he's stomping a bug. Veeeeeewy intwesting. Then next question is, why don't today's players stomp the bug?

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1325020130' post='3993547']
[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1325015866' post='3993263']
I've been reviewing my share of Hogan videos and have yet to see a full swing of him with his left heel planted.

Has anyone seen any full-swing vid of Hogan where his left heel DOESN'T raise as he gets to the top?
[/quote]

Even in his 3/4 swings, left heel is coming up, then slamming back down like he's stomping a bug. Veeeeeewy intwesting. Then next question is, why don't today's players stomp the bug?
[/quote]

Modern technology nowadays makes much better pesticides..

To me that means there are COG shifts, weight-pressure transfer to right foot. Then he really turned the hips left rotary-laterally. Normally, this is undesirable because moving the COGs will make you inconsistent because that means you're also moving the low point, swing path and the arc. But Hogan? Doesn't matter. He has a straighter swing path, shallower arc which means longer low point. You can't do these if you rely on the c0cking and unc0cking power of the left wrist and club. No way.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1325049309' post='3995511']
[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1325020130' post='3993547']
[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1325015866' post='3993263']
I've been reviewing my share of Hogan videos and have yet to see a full swing of him with his left heel planted.

Has anyone seen any full-swing vid of Hogan where his left heel DOESN'T raise as he gets to the top?
[/quote]

Even in his 3/4 swings, left heel is coming up, then slamming back down like he's stomping a bug. Veeeeeewy intwesting. Then next question is, why don't today's players stomp the bug?
[/quote]

Modern technology nowadays makes much better pesticides..

To me that means there are COG shifts, weight-pressure transfer to right foot. Then he really turned the hips left rotary-laterally. Normally, this is undesirable because moving the COGs will make you inconsistent because that means you're also moving the low point, swing path and the arc. But Hogan? Doesn't matter. He has a straighter swing path, shallower arc which means longer low point. You can't do these if you rely on the c0cking and unc0cking power of the left wrist and club. No way.
[/quote]

The COG shifts and weight-pressure transfer yo u speak of.......not just Hogan.................the MAJORITY of old-schoolers from the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, and some 90's. Did golfers all-of-a-sudden get flexible or something?? Well, then I don't want to be flexible lol1

Anthony

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1325050811' post='3995587']
[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1325049309' post='3995511']
[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1325020130' post='3993547']
[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1325015866' post='3993263']
I've been reviewing my share of Hogan videos and have yet to see a full swing of him with his left heel planted.

Has anyone seen any full-swing vid of Hogan where his left heel DOESN'T raise as he gets to the top?
[/quote]

Even in his 3/4 swings, left heel is coming up, then slamming back down like he's stomping a bug. Veeeeeewy intwesting. Then next question is, why don't today's players stomp the bug?
[/quote]

Modern technology nowadays makes much better pesticides..

To me that means there are COG shifts, weight-pressure transfer to right foot. Then he really turned the hips left rotary-laterally. Normally, this is undesirable because moving the COGs will make you inconsistent because that means you're also moving the low point, swing path and the arc. But Hogan? Doesn't matter. He has a straighter swing path, shallower arc which means longer low point. You can't do these if you rely on the c0cking and unc0cking power of the left wrist and club. No way.
[/quote]

The COG shifts and weight-pressure transfer yo u speak of.......not just Hogan.................the MAJORITY of old-schoolers from the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, and some 90's. Did golfers all-of-a-sudden get flexible or something?? Well, then I don't want to be flexible lol1

Anthony
[/quote]

I think it was the shift from roll power to c0ck-unc0ck power, which was encouraged IMO by the lighter clubs and taller players. You know, with lighter clubs, supination makes it easier and faster to close the face because now the hands can participate. With heavy clubs, you'll have to rely on rotation and rolling. With taller players, the hands has to be higher, making the planes higher, making c0ck-unc0ck power source as the main generator instead of rotation.