EXPERT ADVICE NEEDED - Shaft Recommendations (Trackman Data)

[RichyFowler]

Hello! I am hoping to share my current specs of clubs and my Trackman data to get some opinions on better shaft options for myself. 
 

I am looking for very experienced opinions only please. 
 

Thank you in advance!!

[Howard_Jones]

1 hour ago, RichyFowler said:

Hello! I am hoping to share my current specs of clubs and my Trackman data to get some opinions on better shaft options for myself. 
 

I am looking for very experienced opinions only please. 
 

Thank you in advance!!

Its no Trackman report in your post, neither any club specs?
Please post both, and tell us what you like to change and why.

[RichyFowler]

Current Specs

 

 

Stealth Plus 10.5 head set 2 degrees lower (1/2 inch short)

• Diamana DF 60X Shaft 

 

Stealth Plus 5-Wood 19 degree (Std. Length)

• Diamana ZF 70X Shaft

 

Taylormade P7MC 4 &5 Irons (1 degree Upright / Hard Step 1)

• Project X LS 6.0 120G

 

Taylormade P7MB 6-PW (1 degree Upright / Hard Step 1)

• Project X LS 6.0 120G

 

Taylormade MG3 Wedges 50, 54, 58 ( Std. Length and Lie)

• KBS Tour Shafts

 

https://mytrackman.com/system/dynamic-report?r=238e2c10-dd6a-4046-9c74-569c62047880&dm=c&nd=true&op=true&sro=false&do=true&to=true&vo=true&cdo=true&ot=c&ov=d&mp%5B%5D=ClubSpeed&mp%5B%5D=BallSpeed&mp%5B%5D=Carry&mp%5B%5D=Total&mp%5B%5D=SpinRate&mp%5B%5D=SmashFactor&mp%5B%5D=ClubPath&mp%5B%5D=SwingDirection&mp%5B%5D=FaceAngle&mp%5B%5D=LaunchAngle&u=Us&v=dispersion&sgos%5B%5D=a7647101-7f14-49b7-b71a-53b3c3f5646c&sgos%5B%5D=c9d1809e-ccc1-44ce-8b6c-008a217822b4&sgos%5B%5D=c38b1b8f-3b14-4352-ae06-da0c5b1d4b67&sgos%5B%5D=2d3614f9-f8a2-40b8-9c77-f3103389290f&sgos%5B%5D=fa05b0a0-cc15-4f91-ae74-5b34cd5c6328&sgos%5B%5D=900239d4-c13f-4ba7-a2be-5d9ef2636851&sgos%5B%5D=479924e8-b25e-48be-8614-7c36db4a0532&sgos%5B%5D=08338df6-7d54-48b6-8f59-85188b196a50&sgos%5B%5D=f4fd90a4-b0cb-46d2-b591-83c4d5874c71&sgos%5B%5D=f5d98a27-930c-4532-8e62-08ff03865780&sgos%5B%5D=1de9dc05-26c7-4cef-b936-ab4d3ae0a87d&sgos%5B%5D=c131cfb4-8951-4c32-9a8b-993a68dc0570

[Howard_Jones]

A few questions

DRIVER
- This is a Trackman session, but do you have a preferred ball flight pattern like fade or draw, and did you intentionally try to achieve that?  (almost all is to the right side of target line) 

Your smashfactor is on average low, and lower than your 5W (and variable), so your impact pattern is not as good or tight as it should be, thats why you see those variable to launch and spin values, and you are also loosing distance compared to your actual potential. From the hip, the shaft is too long, as the major factor.

What is the general impact pattern on the face?

- High and a tad heel side of center? (average spin is not bad, while PTR value is, and that indicate center to slightly above center but heel side vs the centerline, and that can explain the "right side bias", the sligtly open face to path will, not move the ball that far to the left, but a heel side impact combined can explain it)

5W
- The only real issue i can see is side ways dispersion.
Try to close up face angle a little on the hosel settings (more loft) even if your launch seems high now, spin value is to the lower side.

IRONS. 
- Your #5 and #8 has very good dispersion compared to the others (datas say your face angle control is way better with those 2 irons vs the others, and the dispersion map confirms it)

Have you measured actual club specs on the set?
- Total weight and SW values specific?
(lie angles seems ok since your spread goes both ways and is most likely face to path related before i look on those datas, but those 2 clubs mentioned seems to work very good compared to the others, so the first to look at is weight and SW on them all to figure out why the others dont deliver the same dispersion on both length and side ways,

In general, you make impact with a face angle a bit too open
What grips do your play? To me it looks like +4, but for a player who should use a sharper taper, but that contradict good sideways dispersion for the #5 and #9 iron, so we are back to basic specs for TW and SW.

Numbers in general is clearly from a mat, (high launch, low spin), so dont pay to much attention to them (new shafts due to that), so i have to ask why you ask for a shaft advice? if thats based on iron numbers, its nothing wrong with them (launch and spin) when we are hitting off a mat, its like expected.

SWING
- i looked a a few swings, and in general, your weight shift (and hips target line) is a little too much, and the way you raise the right foot, MIGHT cause a variable impact (driver) so try to keep the right foot on the ground until the ball has left, it might help to stabilize impact pattern (look at videos from the front) 

So what is your thinking about shafts here?
The issues i can see, is not likely shaft related, since 2 irons works very good, the others have room for improvement, so if it was due to spin and launch values, its not the shaft either, but mats vs gras. 

Edited April 27 by Howard_Jones

[Howard_Jones]

 a strange observation is higher spin on the #7 vs #8 plus a brutal drop in PTR value, and your PW seems "way off" on spin (relative) and thats not related to the mat vs gras but impact, so its something off with the basic specs.

[RichyFowler]

Howard,

 

With the driver my miss is typically a push out to the right off the heel. With my driver being cut down I had someone else tell me I would probably get better smash and should be able to average over 300 yards easy with a standard length shaft and potentially a Ventus Blue/Black TR. My driver is 1/2 inch short compared to standard.

 

I don't mind my 5-wood. I definitely prefer a more square face. Ideally I would like to be consistent shaft wise with the driver and 5W.

 

Driver and 5W fly high and fall out of the sky.

 

My irons just don't feel right. Being hard stepped I feel like I am losing 10+ yards throughout the set. My ball flight is pretty bad. All of them have a very high flight and seem to drop straight out of the sky just like the woods. I was recommended Tour Issue DG S400 or KBS Tour 120's. I am on the border from Stiff to X Stiff so that was the primary reason we decided to go hard step in the irons a couple of years ago to achieve a "stiffer" feel.

 

Grip wise I currently have the Lamkin UTX cord grips in a standard size.

 

I have not measured my specs on the clubs. Not anything I would think to do. I have worked on my swing over the last 2.5 years that I just feel like I am not in the right equipment. I previously had $ taper shafts in my irons from KBS before I went to the Project X LS.

 

 

Thanks for the swing advice! and your advice on the clubs!! I hope I touched on all your points. I am happy to provide any info that might help further.

 

 

[Howard_Jones]

2 minutes ago, RichyFowler said:

Howard,

 

With the driver my miss is typically a push out to the right off the heel. With my driver being cut down I had someone else tell me I would probably get better smash and should be able to average over 300 yards easy with a standard length shaft and potentially a Ventus Blue/Black TR. My driver is 1/2 inch short compared to standard.

 

I don't mind my 5-wood. I definitely prefer a more square face. Ideally I would like to be consistent shaft wise with the driver and 5W.

 

Driver and 5W fly high and fall out of the sky.

 

My irons just don't feel right. Being hard stepped I feel like I am losing 10+ yards throughout the set. My ball flight is pretty bad. All of them have a very high flight and seem to drop straight out of the sky just like the woods. I was recommended Tour Issue DG S400 or KBS Tour 120's. I am on the border from Stiff to X Stiff so that was the primary reason we decided to go hard step in the irons a couple of years ago to achieve a "stiffer" feel.

 

Grip wise I currently have the Lamkin UTX cord grips in a standard size.

 

I have not measured my specs on the clubs. Not anything I would think to do. I have worked on my swing over the last 2.5 years that I just feel like I am not in the right equipment. I previously had $ taper shafts in my irons from KBS before I went to the Project X LS.

 

 

Thanks for the swing advice! and your advice on the clubs!! I hope I touched on all your points. I am happy to provide any info that might help further.

 

 

its late in Europe now (21.50), so im not that sharp, but when i look at your 50*, its terrible compared to the others. If thats the feel of the shaft (flex and EI profile) or basic specs, i cant tell, so you should compare TW and SW (make a spread sheet), to see if it can be explained with specs thats simply far off. You made ONE good impact with that club, the rest has huge variables and in general a very low PTR value, and way to much dispersion in all directions, so actual specs on that club, what ever they might be, is NOT a good fit for you.

FEEL is very important, if the feel the shaft delivers is wrong for you, you will try to manipulate one way or the other, but then its strange that 2 clubs seems to work as good as they do, where most return values is good.

Like always with shafts, we have to find the right weight range first, then look at flex and profiles to find the shaft that works the best for your timing.

Its nothing with the numbers you have here who indicate a ball that falls out of the sky (driver and #5), but it might look like that if apex is high and descent is steep,. but those numbers is missing

[RichyFowler]

I can certainly build out a sheet for you. I’m assuming SW is swing weight. What is the TW?

 

my driver and 5 wood definitely have that higher flight with a steep descent. I know I’m losing yardage. Irons as well. 
 

FYI. That particular session on Trackman is probably one of the best practice sessions I’ve had. The data shows the shots I hit the best with those clubs. 
 

I greatly appreciate your help. I’ve been playing golf for almost 14 years. I just don’t feel my specs are correct. Intuitively. 

[Howard_Jones]

26 minutes ago, RichyFowler said:

I can certainly build out a sheet for you. I’m assuming SW is swing weight. What is the TW?

 

my driver and 5 wood definitely have that higher flight with a steep descent. I know I’m losing yardage. Irons as well. 
 

FYI. That particular session on Trackman is probably one of the best practice sessions I’ve had. The data shows the shots I hit the best with those clubs. 
 

I greatly appreciate your help. I’ve been playing golf for almost 14 years. I just don’t feel my specs are correct. Intuitively. 

TW = Total weight

We should have a "decent slope" (irons average 7 grams per club), but the summary of tolerances might send those numbers all over the place, where a club that should be plus 7 grams (one club shorter) ends up 2 or 3 grams lower than the former club) 

SW = Swing weight

Again, tighter specs the better, so if a club is 1 SWP off, we should do something about it, its more than enough to influence om delivery and impact

BUT...if shafts dont feel right, even tight specs dont help, your timing will be variable, so will delivery and impact, but until you got to try some shaft options, i would check those 2 specs for the piece of mind. IF they turn out to be "ok", then blame the feel of the shafts, but then we can only wonder why 2 irons works good, and clearly better than the others

Stuff like FLO and shaft aligning is still controversial, and steel shafts is most often "tight enough" of flex specs, but it happens that they are off, but i cant imagine a set of shafts here 5 out of 7 is way off, and 2 is good. i never seen that, when shafts is off (on specs), it would most likely be 5 good, and 1 maybe or 2 that was way off. 

Edited April 27 by Howard_Jones

[RichyFowler]

I will work on that sheet and upload it here once completed. Thanks for your help!!

[Pnwpingi210]

I’m no expert like Howard or some others on here.

 

That being said iron spin 7-4 looks a little on the high side on average.  Peak high doesn’t look all that high for a player of your speed.  You probably have 5 yards to pick up of carry if you optimize but those distance and flight don’t look terrible at least from a data standpoint.

 

how did you get on with the $ tapers?     Where you recommend the px ls hardstepped at some point?  I agree with Howard that if something feels off with the shaft, specifically fit is too light, too heavy, or too stiff it can make our release of the club inconsistent 
 

 

[RichyFowler]

I was fit into the $ taper originally with a hard step and then switched into the project x as experiment. At the end of the day five yards is five yards. 
 

I don’t recall performance with the $ taper however. It’s been awhile since then 

[RichyFowler]

I personally do not like flight with irons or woods. They seem way too high and drop quickly. I don’t mind high. But I want it to carry further. 

[Pnwpingi210]

36 minutes ago, RichyFowler said:

I personally do not like flight with irons or woods. They seem way too high and drop quickly. I don’t mind high. But I want it to carry further. 

Got it.  90- 100 feet peak height with short to mid irons isn’t really high for somebody swinging in the low 90s and playing traditionally lofted irons.  The distances are pretty close to what one would expect for a player of your speed and playing those heads. 

 

 Your land or descent  angles are maybe a couple of degrees high for 8-9 iron.  But 7-4 are good.  Curious to see if shafts are going to help with this.  Normally the solution strengthen the iron loft or move to a different iron head style if you want lower flight and more distance.    A ball change could help as well.

To put into perspective what’s realistic from a ball flight and distance perspective, here is a chart from trackman on pga tour averages.  Granted it’s a few years old now and tour average swing speed has ticked up a bit, but this is a good example of how far pga tour professionals hit it at a speed similar to yours with clubs similar to your.

 

 

Edited April 27 by Pnwpingi210

[BombinJim]

Everything 8i and above has way too low of spin.

[RichyFowler]

Bomb that is exactly how I feel. My ball indicates it. They drop right out of the sky. 

[Shilgy]

15 minutes ago, BombinJim said:

Everything 8i and above has way too low of spin.

And all over the place(very high variance) imo.

[RichyFowler]

Shilgy,

 

If you look at my dispersion I was pretty much dialed in on my session. One of the better sessions I have had. I just feel the performance even on my best shots isn't the same across the board. Intuitively I feel I am missing out.

[RichyFowler]

48 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Got it.  90- 100 feet peak height with short to mid irons isn’t really high for somebody swinging in the low 90s and playing traditionally lofted irons.  The distances are pretty close to what one would expect for a player of your speed and playing those heads. 

 

 Your land or descent  angles are maybe a couple of degrees high for 8-9 iron.  But 7-4 are good.  Curious to see if shafts are going to help with this.  Normally the solution strengthen the iron loft or move to a different iron head style if you want lower flight and more distance.    A ball change could help as well.

To put into perspective what’s realistic from a ball flight and distance perspective, here is a chart from trackman on pga tour averages.  Granted it’s a few years old now and tour average swing speed has ticked up a bit, but this is a good example of how far pga tour professionals hit it at a speed similar to yours with clubs similar to your.

 

 

I honestly am not so much worried about distance as I am I know my ball flight isn't optimal.

[Pnwpingi210]

Understood.

 

 We can’t see the flight, we are just going off what you posted.  Your numbers from a launch, spin, peak height, descent, carry aren’t that far off from pga tour averages from what is relatively comparatively swing speed and combination of equipment.   They have pretty optimized numbers and yours are similar.  It’s going to be tough to find a shaft that significantly lowers your peak height in irons at your speed.  You might find something that alters the tractory in how it gets to that peak height, but not reduce the peak.
 

As bombinjim pointed out your 8, 9, pw and specialty wedges are all low spin.   8-pw and 50 - lw have different shafts, so it might not be shaft related.  Not all mats are created equal and I find that spin number can drop significantly off certain mats with wedges and range balls.

 

Edited April 27 by Pnwpingi210

[RichyFowler]

3 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

TW = Total weight

We should have a "decent slope" (irons average 7 grams per club), but the summary of tolerances might send those numbers all over the place, where a club that should be plus 7 grams (one club shorter) ends up 2 or 3 grams lower than the former club) 

SW = Swing weight

Again, tighter specs the better, so if a club is 1 SWP off, we should do something about it, its more than enough to influence om delivery and impact

BUT...if shafts dont feel right, even tight specs dont help, your timing will be variable, so will delivery and impact, but until you got to try some shaft options, i would check those 2 specs for the piece of mind. IF they turn out to be "ok", then blame the feel of the shafts, but then we can only wonder why 2 irons works good, and clearly better than the others

Stuff like FLO and shaft aligning is still controversial, and steel shafts is most often "tight enough" of flex specs, but it happens that they are off, but i cant imagine a set of shafts here 5 out of 7 is way off, and 2 is good. i never seen that, when shafts is off (on specs), it would most likely be 5 good, and 1 maybe or 2 that was way off. 

 

[RichyFowler]

49 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Understood.

 

 We can’t see the flight, we are just going off what you posted.  Your numbers from a launch, spin, peak height, descent, carry aren’t that far off from pga tour averages from what is relatively comparatively swing speed and combination of equipment.   They have pretty optimized numbers and yours are similar.  It’s going to be tough to find a shaft that significantly lowers your peak height in irons at your speed.  You might find something that alters the tractory in how it gets to that peak height, but not reduce the peak.
 

As bombinjim pointed out your 8, 9, pw and specialty wedges are all low spin.   8-pw and 50 - lw have different shafts, so it might not be shaft related.  Not all mats are created equal and I find that spin number can drop significantly off certain mats with wedges and range balls.

 

4-PW have the Project X LS and the 50,54,58 have KBS Tour Wedge Shaft. I just feel like the golf ball isn't staying in the air long enough.

[RichyFowler]

[Shilgy]

37 minutes ago, RichyFowler said:

I will let the expert make the suggestions 

@Howard_Jones ?

[phizzy30]

2 hours ago, RichyFowler said:

 

Your swing weights are all over the place with irons in general which may explain why some of the numbers for certain clubs don't quite align with others.  There shouldn't be such a large variance in your irons swing weight wise, IMO or it can affect feel to the point where it screws with your delivery into the ball.  There should only be 1-3 points difference between your irons and wedges for any sorta consistency.  For example, I'm very swing weight sensitive therefore my irons are D3.  PW is D4.  Wedges are D5.  Going from D3 down to C8 in your irons and wedges will in a lot of cases mess with feel big time.  

Edited April 28 by phizzy30

[Pnwpingi210]

25 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

Your swing weights are all over the place with irons in general which may explain why some of the numbers for certain clubs don't quite align with others.  There shouldn't be such a large variance in your irons swing weight wise, IMO or it can affect feel to the point where it screws with your delivery into the ball.  There should only be 1-3 points difference between your irons and wedges for any sorta consistency.  For example, I'm very swing weight sensitive therefore my irons are D3.  PW is D4.  Wedges are D5.  Going from D3 down to C8 in your irons and wedges will in a lot of cases mess with feel big time.  

Well said.

[Rob_X]

3 hours ago, RichyFowler said:

 

Are you sure that you recorded the total weights correctly?  These are not one-length irons, right?  5-6-7 at the same weight and 9-P-G at the same weight is quite odd (maybe the GW isn't too odd if it is from a different brand/set, but P an 9 from the same set shouldn't weight the same).  There should be a 10-15g different in weight as you move across 3 clubs.  Most of that difference is head weight, which is what (should) lets the SW stay similar as the shafts get shorter.

 

Also, there is almost no reason why the swingweight of the 7i should be more than the 6i if they are the same total weight.  A longer club at the same weight would almost always have higher SW unless someone purposely put a extra weight in the grip area.

 

If those numbers are right, then there has been a lot of messing with head or total weight.

 

For example, here are the weights of two sets that I have, with either $-taper 130x or MMT 125tx shafts:

 

4i			423.5							D-1.8
5i			426.5							D-1.6
6i			435.5							D-2
7i			443.5							D-2.1
8i			449							D-2.5
9i			456							D-2.1
pw			466							D-3.7
gw			470.5							D-3.7

 

 

(Below is a different set without grips)

4i		377
5i		382
6i		392
7i		396.5
8i		410.5
9i		416.5
pw		420

(in this set, I think the 7i head must have been a bit on the low-weight side, probably should have been 4g heavier.  It also swingweighted half to one point lower than the others)

 

 

 

Edited April 28 by Rob_X

[Howard_Jones]

6 hours ago, RichyFowler said:

Really? Are you sure about those values?
Who made those clubs for you? (OEM Custom order?)

KBS TOUR used for your wedges does have a higher BP, so they do return lower SW values than PX will, but this looks like a bad "cut and clue job", where heads is simply added without any kind of target or measurements done.

If what we see here is actual specs, then you will struggle

During fitting, was head wgt/SW values subject at all?
- D1 as return value with PX is also rather low for a player at your speed level (#5 and #9), and that can explain why they dont feel good, since shafts becomes even stiffer with those numbers, so to me it looks like the reason for why the #9 and #5 works good for you, is because they have the least misfit of them all, not because they fit, since no matter what end i start from, one of them becomes off too.

[RichyFowler]

7 hours ago, Rob_X said:

 

Are you sure that you recorded the total weights correctly?  These are not one-length irons, right?  5-6-7 at the same weight and 9-P-G at the same weight is quite odd (maybe the GW isn't too odd if it is from a different brand/set, but P an 9 from the same set shouldn't weight the same).  There should be a 10-15g different in weight as you move across 3 clubs.  Most of that difference is head weight, which is what (should) lets the SW stay similar as the shafts get shorter.

 

Also, there is almost no reason why the swingweight of the 7i should be more than the 6i if they are the same total weight.  A longer club at the same weight would almost always have higher SW unless someone purposely put a extra weight in the grip area.

 

If those numbers are right, then there has been a lot of messing with head or total weight.

 

For example, here are the weights of two sets that I have, with either $-taper 130x or MMT 125tx shafts:

 

4i			423.5							D-1.8
5i			426.5							D-1.6
6i			435.5							D-2
7i			443.5							D-2.1
8i			449							D-2.5
9i			456							D-2.1
pw			466							D-3.7
gw			470.5							D-3.7

 

 

(Below is a different set without grips)

4i		377
5i		382
6i		392
7i		396.5
8i		410.5
9i		416.5
pw		420

(in this set, I think the 7i head must have been a bit on the low-weight side, probably should have been 4g heavier.  It also swingweighted half to one point lower than the others)

 

 

 

If anything some might be .5 off as I rounded up or down based on how close the line was to the individual ticks. But yes. All of the clubs are pretty much within 1 gram of the numbers listed. 

[RichyFowler]

3 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

Really? Are you sure about those values?
Who made those clubs for you? (OEM Custom order?)

KBS TOUR used for your wedges does have a higher BP, so they do return lower SW values than PX will, but this looks like a bad "cut and clue job", where heads is simply added without any kind of target or measurements done.

If what we see here is actual specs, then you will struggle

During fitting, was head wgt/SW values subject at all?
- D1 as return value with PX is also rather low for a player at your speed level (#5 and #9), and that can explain why they dont feel good, since shafts becomes even stiffer with those numbers, so to me it looks like the reason for why the #9 and #5 works good for you, is because they have the least misfit of them all, not because they fit, since no matter what end i start from, one of them becomes off too.

My irons were originally ordered with the KBS $ taper a couple of years ago from Taylormade. I am an assistant golf pro so they were ordered on discount for me directly from factory. 
 

I took the project x out of a friends irons and changed the heads myself taking out the $ taper. 
 

I am confident in the values I put in the spreadsheet. So. At this point I just want to get it dialed. I still just don’t feel these shafts are the best for me. But also. These values are producing a lot of variability as well