What did Hogan Feel?

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1370557506' post='7184816']
Not a big TGM fan, but I do like this quote from Homer: "Let mechanics produce, and feel reproduce."

The problem with feel based learning (and more importantly instruction) is that everyone's feels are different and feels change over time (even day to day). As Hogan said in the above quote, they "copy a good player." What are they copying? Mechanics. It's right in 5L - He copied the knee action of the best amateur at Glen Garden. He copied the grip that the head pro taught him. He used feel to ingrain the movements.

For example, I have very active knees to start the the downswing (really too active) but I don't feel this move at all. So I have to think "quiet knees" to swing my best. But if I give that as a tip to some stiff-legged OTT hack it's a disaster. He may need to actively feel his left knee re-rotate toward the target. I also fight getting long and out of sync with my arm swing, so I have to feel as if my armswing is incredibly short (not past 9 O'clock high). Those are personal to me and [i][b]AT THIS TIME[/b][/i] in my swing development. Two years from now I may have my armswing so well synched and compact that I have to discard that feel. If some chop comes up to me at the range and asks me for help, if I told him my feels, it probably wouldn't help him at all, might even hurt, unless he has the same tendencies as me.

The best process is more what Homer was telling us. Check mechanics with the best available tools (video, trackman, ballflight, 3D machines, etc.). Even Hogan was quoted as saying once that if he'd had a video camera he'd have figured his swing out 10 years earlier. Figure out the pieces that need changing. Find a feel that helps create that change. Practice that feel or drill for long enough that the change takes hold and confirm the mechanics with those same tools. Move on to the next piece that needs changing. Repeat the process. In fact, if there are a set of drills that work for you, you can repeat them for the rest of your golfing life. "Cycling through the fundamentals" is what Casey Eberting calls it.
[/quote]

word

[hoganfan924]

WRT learning a golf swing, some people are more visual learners (monkey see, monkey do), some kinesthetic (move my body the correct way so that I can feel the movement), some auditory (describe the correct motions and I'll do it) and some analytic (I need to know the how and why). Most are a combination of all 4 with a strong tendency towards one. The master teacher has all four styles available to him to be able to use them with whatever particular learning style is most effective for the student. I lean visual and analytic but have elements of all four. Many students learning a golf swing can completely dispense with the auditory, and analytic but not me. I want to know the details of the how and why. For me, that's a huge trust and confidence issue.

[BTP]

[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1367336797' post='6944193']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1366554974' post='6887385']
That's what I think too. I find it strange that some people think that mr hogan didn't know what he was doing. The funniest I've heard is that what he's written are decoys so his competitors never figure it out!!

It all gets very silly when we stop being open minded and are too rigid with our beliefs.
[/quote]

I don't think the masses want to know the truth about the golf swing - it forces them to accept that there are no shortcuts and for someone who's spent years tracking down those shortcuts, it can be very disappointing. At best there are forks in the road, and even if avoiding the wrong road can save you a ton of time, you still have to walk the right path and explore the sensations in order to make adjustments that will last/work.

It's easier to say Hogan lied, misled, didn't understand etc. than it is to accept that what he was saying is simply beyond you because you lack the proper context to explore those possibilities. It's the reason he eventually went to his famous phrase, "it's in the dirt," when people asked for the secret. He realized early on that no answer would be sufficient because the concept that hard work and perseverance IS the holy grail to Golf, doesn't sit well with those looking to buy or more often "steal" a so called "secret". Moe Norman said you can't buy or steal a golf swing often, and Sam Snead down played it but over time he too admitted that teaching yourself the golf swing is the most efficient way to reach your own potential.

Most people want to believe that if someone tells them the right Hogan tip or they steal it by analyzing/stalking, they will magically transform into Ben Hogan, which is lunacy. It's the reason I don't safeguard anything I know. If it were as simple as telling someone the right way to swing, we'd have more Hogans by now. He was one of a kind because he approached the golf swing in a one of a kind way. If there is a secret, it's that if you have to think about what you're doing, you haven't "felt it" yet and you certainly can't rely on it on the course.

It's that simple (the idea, not swing itself) but as you guys can see, "feel" threads get very little attention in most forums. It's unfortunate because if we focused on feel more and less on mechanics, the mechanics would reveal themselves and more importantly they would become innate, rather than manufactured.
[/quote]

+1 Very, very well put. There is a lot of great input in this thread. Thanks for starting this.

Wanting to master the golf swing is so much like wanting to lose weight. We all want the quick fix and we want to maintain it forever. Fact of the matter is it won't happen unless you consciously work at it and continue to work at it even when you're at your "best" weight or best swing. If you don't use it, you'll lose it. And, any health specialist can give someone good advice, but everyone is different and even the most conventional advice (eat smaller portions, exercise, etc.) will not work for everyone. It goes along the same lines of another poster mentioning how he has over active knees and comparing it to someone who does not have that issue. He may quiet his knees down and that's his "key," his "feel," whereas another golfer's is completely different because that is not his/her issue or feel.

[BTP]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1370621129' post='7189558']
WRT learning a golf swing, some people are more visual learners (monkey see, monkey do), some kinesthetic (move my body the correct way so that I can feel the movement), some auditory (describe the correct motions and I'll do it) and some analytic (I need to know the how and why). Most are a combination of all 4 with a strong tendency towards one. The master teacher has all four styles available to him to be able to use them with whatever particular learning style is most effective for the student. I lean visual and analytic but have elements of all four. Many students learning a golf swing can completely dispense with the auditory, and analytic but not me. I want to know the details of the how and why. For me, that's a huge trust and confidence issue.
[/quote]

+1. I think this is the best approach. As mentioned prior, Hogan even said he would have figured his swing out 10 years sooner if he were able to see it on video.

[Hogan1975]

No one knows.. All hearsay...he may not have even have known

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1370618786' post='7189184']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1370557506' post='7184816']
Not a big TGM fan, but I do like this quote from Homer: "Let mechanics produce, and feel reproduce."

The problem with feel based learning (and more importantly instruction) is that everyone's feels are different and feels change over time (even day to day). As Hogan said in the above quote, they "copy a good player." What are they copying? Mechanics. It's right in 5L - He copied the knee action of the best amateur at Glen Garden. He copied the grip that the head pro taught him. He used feel to ingrain the movements.

For example, I have very active knees to start the the downswing (really too active) but I don't feel this move at all. So I have to think "quiet knees" to swing my best. But if I give that as a tip to some stiff-legged OTT hack it's a disaster. He may need to actively feel his left knee re-rotate toward the target. I also fight getting long and out of sync with my arm swing, so I have to feel as if my armswing is incredibly short (not past 9 O'clock high). Those are personal to me and [i][b]AT THIS TIME[/b][/i] in my swing development. Two years from now I may have my armswing so well synched and compact that I have to discard that feel. If some chop comes up to me at the range and asks me for help, if I told him my feels, it probably wouldn't help him at all, might even hurt, unless he has the same tendencies as me.

The best process is more what Homer was telling us. Check mechanics with the best available tools (video, trackman, ballflight, 3D machines, etc.). Even Hogan was quoted as saying once that if he'd had a video camera he'd have figured his swing out 10 years earlier. Figure out the pieces that need changing. Find a feel that helps create that change. Practice that feel or drill for long enough that the change takes hold and confirm the mechanics with those same tools. Move on to the next piece that needs changing. Repeat the process. In fact, if there are a set of drills that work for you, you can repeat them for the rest of your golfing life. "Cycling through the fundamentals" is what Casey Eberting calls it.
[/quote]

I'm not against camera work or gaining knowledge of the swing at all, in fact it's been instrumental in my swing - specially the knowledge part. Also, I should mention that this "feel" approach is based on teaching YOURSELF. [b]I personally don't believe that learning from someone else can amount to anything substantial, in particular as it relates to the individual's ceiling.[/b]

What a chop is a matter of perspective. The same gap that exists between you and some hacker could exists between you and someone that knows far more about their own swing than you do, in particular as it relates to feel. Feel can be revealed to you, but you must experience it and understand it for yourself - you can't do this by putting it into words, IMO. That's why Hogan often didn't try or bother explaining his logic. Instead he focused on what he felt, hoping you too would stumble upon the sensation he's describing - if you work at it.

Sam Snead, Ben Hogan, among others - all felt that best way to reach your potential is to teach* yourself, and in that context I don't believe anything is more important than learning by feel. Just an opinion, and not a popular one. I argue about it for sport mostly
[/quote]

I don't really agree with the bold. Good teachers have helped me tremendously. They don't just teach it either, they kind of lay things out so you can learn it yourself too. Granted they have to be really good teachers.

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='Chris Peterich' timestamp='1370626305' post='7190242']
No one knows.. All hearsay...he may not have even have known
[/quote]

He knew.

[BTP]

Thanks. And to add to it, all these golf gimmicks..."tour angle 144!" "The Perfect Club!"...they're all the equivalent of "Hydroxycut," any diet fad, you name it. They all address the problem, and may work, but they do not address the underlying cause. In fact, many times they make losing weight or finding a repeatable swing worse because they cause --> health issues or make you adjust to the equipment throwing off your whole body mechanics. Gimmicks will never address fundamentals in Health (exercise, proper diet, good rest, low stress) or Golf (posture, proper body sequencing).

No one ever got good for completely emulating one particular person or relying on a few gimmicks. They may have incorporated bits and pieces from a number of things and made them their own. I like how Hogan said he'd incorporate things from others, even like with that amateur player. I think this is an important concept in learning your "own" swing. You must take ownership of your swing. How you go about learning these "mechanics" or "feels" is entirely up to you and then trust it.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='BTP' timestamp='1370627901' post='7190480']
Thanks. And to add to it, all these golf gimmicks..."tour angle 144!" "The Perfect Club!"...they're all the equivalent of "Hydroxycut," any diet fad, you name it. They all address the problem, and may work, but they do not address the underlying cause. In fact, many times they make losing weight or finding a repeatable swing worse because they cause --> health issues or make you adjust to the equipment throwing off your whole body mechanics. Gimmicks will never address fundamentals in Health (exercise, proper diet, good rest, low stress) or Golf (posture, proper body sequencing).

No one ever got good for completely emulating one particular person or relying on a few gimmicks. They may have incorporated bits and pieces from a number of things and made them their own. [b]I like how Hogan said he'd incorporate things from others, even like with that amateur player. [/b]I think this is an important concept in learning your "own" swing. You must take ownership of your swing. How you go about learning these "mechanics" or "feels" is entirely up to you and then trust it.
[/quote]

Good post. I find this one of the most interesting parts of 5L:



[quote]
[size=3]I must have been about 13 when I started to work on my game conscientiously. I was caddying then at the Glen Garden club in Fort Worth, and I took a member named Ed Stewart as my model. A very fine amateur, Stewart was a workingman who couldn’t afford to play too often, and none of the other boys wanted to become his regular caddy. That suited me fine. I caddied for him whenever he played and studied his swing and his shotmaking technique closely. Then I’d go and compare my swing with his and try to improve mine by copying certain of Stewart’s movements that were obviously correct and desirable.[/size]
[size=2][size=3] The first really important change I effected was the action of my left knee. Mine used to shoot straight out when I took the club back. Ed Stewart’s knee, I noticed, broke in nicely to the right. I practiced correcting my knee action on the lawn at home until there was no lawn left[/size].[/size][/quote]

Considering that Hogan's Dad was dead and he had to help support the family, this passage tells me a lot of about Hogan the person. The Glen Garden club was several miles from his house and he would also sleep in bunkers overnight at times to make sure he was there early the next day for a sure caddy assignment. Interesting times for sure. Some kid does that today, and they put out an amber alert! lol

[tembolo1284]

This is good stuff.