The straightening of the left leg

[MonteScheinblum]

The front knee should not be snapped on purpose. It does not create power. The front knee is a function of secondary tilt and where the left hip is going.

The higher the front hip works and the more the left hip works around, the earlier the front knee straightens. The more laterally the front hip is working and the lower it is, the later the front knee straightens.

Like lag, it's not something you direct. It's a diagnostic.

[tembolo1284]

So then it kinda has to do with cf vs cp then eh?

[playa]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1388294014' post='8361773']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1388293917' post='8361767']
Gary Player 165 Professional wins, 9 majors
Ben Hogan 68 Professional wins, 9 majors
[/quote]

And Gary did that with Jack, Watson, and Palmer right there in his face!
[/quote]
But Player had a shot that none of the others had, he was allegedly a skilled exponent of the old trouser ball.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='playa' timestamp='1388355922' post='8364291']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1388294014' post='8361773']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1388293917' post='8361767']
Gary Player 165 Professional wins, 9 majors
Ben Hogan 68 Professional wins, 9 majors
[/quote]

And Gary did that with Jack, Watson, and Palmer right there in his face!
[/quote]
But Player had a shot that none of the others had, he was allegedly a skilled exponent of the old trouser ball.
[/quote]

He was way ahead of his time then...laughing at the folks trying to perfect the foot wedge.

[ej002]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1388167373' post='8355147']
And here's Mac. Still a bit of bend at impact, and straight by the time that all of his levers are spent.

[/quote]

I think that changed over time and lessened some.


I don't think knee bend has anything to do with power.... Monte should know, but I still bet you see alot of long driver guys jumping/snapping through impact. I would bet bent knees go along with a lot of #3 (all things being equal), b/c you are going to be lower to the ground. So that should in theory lead to accuracy. I don't agree with Monte on the hip stuff, there are guys with tons of secondary axis tilt and bent knees.

[dairic]

Thanks Monte for your comments, and thanks ej for your comments and bumping that Knudson thread. Now I have to go and think about all of this!

Did Jack have a lot of #3?

[dairic]

[quote name='Pinsplitter59' timestamp='1388262722' post='8359959']
Not that I know but just because I am secretly in love with Tembolo.
In the old days when I was handsome, on the backswing having the left knee pop straight out was considered wrong, but this seems to be the norm nowadays. Back then the left knee was supposed to come in along the target line (still has to go out a bit).
When you do this, it much easier to keep it bent through impact.
See Johnny Miller (sorry to mention that name) even with very vertical arms he kept a bent left knee at impact I think because his knee comes "in" a lot in the back swing.
If it pops straight out it on the back swing seems to naturally want to pop straight back on down swing. It is working perpendicular to the target line rather than along the target line.
The plane angle the arms swing on also have an effect I think, the more vertical the arms the more the body wants to straighten up to counter-balance the weight. if the arms travel more around the body is not pulled up so much.
[/quote]

Hey Pin,

I just quickly had a look at left knee working down the target line in the backswing and it's effect on bent knee at impact, and it seems once again to be all over the place. Here's a few examples.

Jack's knee works along target line and is bent through impact
[attachment=2001783:jackfrontview.jpg]

Byron's knee doesn't work along target line and is bent through impact
[attachment=2001787:nelsonswings.jpg]

Sam's knee works along target line and is not bent through impact. Notice left hip going up at impact due to his thigh squeezing move. Is this what you were talking about Monte?
[attachment=2001789:sneadswings.jpg]

[dairic]

and heeeeeeere's Johnny
Very much like Jack.

[attachment=2001797:jm1.jpg]
[attachment=2001799:jm2.jpg]
[attachment=2001801:jm3.jpg]

[dairic]

Tom just like Jack and johnny,

[attachment=2001803:tom_watson_1.jpg]
[attachment=2001805:tom_watson_2.jpg]

[dairic]

You may have a point Pin if you have an upright golf swing like the revers C guy in the 70s 80s. They all seem work their left knee down target line and keep it bent through impact and beyond.

[tembolo1284]

This is awesome stuff.

I'm trying to draw a connection and still draw a blank.

[rok78]

I agree with Monte, from face on, lateral hip slide and bent left knee have a lot in common. More someone rotates versus slides, the more it straightens. I think it also has to do with extension of the lower spine as that can raise the level of the hips.

[tembolo1284]

Very interesting. I have to think about that!

[Pinsplitter59]

What I have found feeling wise in my ancient decrepit body is...
Well starting with my 'normal' swing, the left knee just pops out and the right leg straightens,
now this always seems to block any downswing unless you pull ur left knee/hip back under you, which helps but it sems to cause a steep downswing.
When i get the left knee coming in the upper body feels a lot more on top of the ball and the move down is very open with nothing to block it.
I don't even have to move it forward, it just seems to get out of the way, and i even see my right knee come really in to almost touch my left knee without trying.
Also i find that when i manage to set my arms in a pitch position i can actually use them easily whereas before with the knee popping out i could not really get them through.
The most different and nice feeling is that the hips come back underneath you, and your upper body is balanced above ready for action.
I am starting to think that most 'blocking' or 'getting stuck' is caused by wrong hips and kees not where the hands and shaft is.
I've been 'blocked' most of my life and always looked to arms/club/takeaway as the problem, i think that's the wrong place to look for the problem.
Have a look at Francis Ouimet if you want to see extreme left knee in.
The obvious thing is that if the left knee just pops out it can't then go forward in the downswing, it has to back where it came from, so the soft knees keeping low move into the ball is simply not possible. I really prefer the low liquid swish through the ball, this is not possible if your body is forced to extend upwards because the right leg has to straighten. Ahhh well today's thoughts........
Everything old is new again in golf.

[tembolo1284]

Happy new year everyone!!!

[dairic]

[quote name='Pinsplitter59' timestamp='1388490819' post='8372899']
What I have found feeling wise in my ancient decrepit body is...
Well starting with my 'normal' swing, the left knee just pops out and the right leg straightens,
now this always seems to block any downswing unless you pull ur left knee/hip back under you, which helps but it sems to cause a steep downswing.
When i get the left knee coming in the upper body feels a lot more on top of the ball and the move down is very open with nothing to block it.
I don't even have to move it forward, it just seems to get out of the way, and i even see my right knee come really in to almost touch my left knee without trying.
Also i find that when i manage to set my arms in a pitch position i can actually use them easily whereas before with the knee popping out i could not really get them through.
The most different and nice feeling is that the hips come back underneath you, and your upper body is balanced above ready for action.
I am starting to think that most 'blocking' or 'getting stuck' is caused by wrong hips and kees not where the hands and shaft is.
I've been 'blocked' most of my life and always looked to arms/club/takeaway as the problem, i think that's the wrong place to look for the problem.
Have a look at Francis Ouimet if you want to see extreme left knee in.
The obvious thing is that if the left knee just pops out it can't then go forward in the downswing, it has to back where it came from, so the soft knees keeping low move into the ball is simply not possible. I really prefer the low liquid swish through the ball, this is not possible if your body is forced to extend upwards because the right leg has to straighten. Ahhh well today's thoughts........
Everything old is new again in golf.
[/quote]

Do you change your setup to make your knee work along the target line?

You're right about Ouimet and his extreme left knee in.

[attachment=2002385:FrancisOuimet.jpg]

[Pinsplitter59]

Its certainly curious how letting the left foot roll in and the left heel come up, along with the left knee coming in, has fallen out of fashion especially since so many of the old good golfers did it.
Bobby Jones describing his own swing in a video "If i just watch the action of the left knee and foot during the backswing, then look at the position of the left foot which makes this possible , you can go from the ground up and see how the position of the left foot affects the movement of the knee and that in turn the action of the hips".
It was probably in the '80's when golfers like Appleby were considered to have an ideal swing with left foot flat on the ground at the top of his swing, though Greg Norman had a reasonable amount of roll onto the inside of his left foot and at impact his left knee was still a bit bent and a bit outside his left foot. Now of course this has led the theorists all the way to S&T. When you read these forums there is almost no discussion of footwork (though Brad Hughes is keen on it) when in the 'old days' footwork was considered really vital.
Who knows, it might even be some innate thing in a golfer's body that allows them to keep the left foot flat and knee out and still be able to make a good move down.
I am starting to think that , for the average golfer, if they went back to getting footwork like those old guys it would help them a lot. The biggest problem the average golfer has is getting back to the ball, I am now almost convinced that the problem has little to do with the upper body and most downswing problems are caused by the feet and knees not working properly. You know you see guys practicing the 'pump' drill and dropping, dipping etc. all that stuff because they can't get back to the ball properly, if the feet and knees work properly I believe all that nonsense is not necessary.
Dairic - I haven't changed any set up things in my practice. There was a swing I experimented with ages ago which i called my 'sway' swing, this was to try to turn my shoulders and hips back parallel to the target line (horror shock!) and it actually worked quite well, I experienced a few impact positions which were fabulous and i had never had before, thinking of it now I think a large part of that working was because it caused the knees to work along the target line and removed my usual left knee pop-out, it was like my hips and knees were swaying under me, weird coz its a bit like floating above the ball.
The biggest problem about all this might just be mental/conceptual, looking at the old guys (and the '70's guys) its like so old-school, they didn't really know the modern way, it looks scary how can you hit the ball with all that movement going on underneath you. Mentally to make this change you need to give up a lot of your desire to 'control' and 'own' your swing, give up seeking those perfect top of swing positions, free yourself up.
All I would say to anyone is 'try it and see what happens', the proof is in the pudding.
I think Mike Austin still has the Guiness record for longest drive in a PGA tournament and look at his left leg at the top!

[dairic]

Here's some Canadian bacon modern instruction not afraid of moving that left knee around and freeing yourself of control.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7ul7bfyL9NU

[tembolo1284]

Wow! Ouimet has a wild action!

[dairic]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1388601955' post='8379537']
Wow! Ouimet has a wild action!
[/quote]

Unrestricted hip turn and right knee external rotation pulls left knee along target line.

[dairic]

Elk's leg never gets straight. Hip turn seems level-ish with ground in downswing.

http://youtu.be/eoXrEgAKbwA

[bhughesgolf]

With correct pressures in the feet and legs where the pressures are still down the right leg and thru down and into the right ankle in transition and downswing (which allows the right leg to drive through the strike) of which also helps increase the chance of a delivery path that engages the pivot- will allow the left leg to then be pulled straight well after impact and into the finish by the pivot turn and not by snapping.

[dairic]

[quote name='bhughesgolf' timestamp='1388645507' post='8383289']
With correct pressures in the feet and legs where the pressures are still down the right leg and thru down and into the right ankle in transition and downswing (which allows the right leg to drive through the strike) of which also helps increase the chance of a delivery path that engages the pivot- will allow the left leg to then be pulled straight well after impact and into the finish by the pivot turn and not by snapping.
[/quote]

There's at least two camps related to foot pressures in transition. Like you describe, keep pressure in the right foot, and the other, imagine crushing a cigaret box with the heal of your left foot.

I found that the second is a recipe for losing any cohesive tension in the body or fire from the top. The first maintains tension and allows for a later firing.

[tembolo1284]

The crushing of the box with the heel of the left foot is more SnT idea right?

[dairic]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1388784188' post='8392623']
The crushing of the box with the heel of the left foot is more SnT idea right?
[/quote]

Is it? I didn't know that. I just remember russc going on about it. Where is that bum anyway?

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1388808686' post='8394997']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1388784188' post='8392623']
The crushing of the box with the heel of the left foot is more SnT idea right?
[/quote]

Is it? I didn't know that. I just remember russc going on about it. Where is that bum anyway?
[/quote]

I have no idea!

Where is he! Good question. Something to ask him for sure.

[tembolo1284]

D those frames of the swings of the greats give me goose bumps. Just love them!

[ej002]

Slice is big on having most of the weight on the left side, as is Waite Mayo and I think Morad. And our man Hogan was on his left foot in transition.

Also I think the weight would be in the left ball in transition not the heel. Diagonal stance helps line the balls up - we talked about this in the other forum a while ago.

[tembolo1284]

So what happened here?

[Jobu]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1388293917' post='8361767']
Gary Player 165 Professional wins, 9 majors
Ben Hogan 68 Professional wins, 9 majors
[/quote]

slow down there, Player includes his Senior Majors and wins. What's neat about Player is he won the Derby Open at Seneca GC in Louisville where i hit most my balls.