Snead, Hogan & Nicklaus vs Tiger, Rory Etc.

[Cold_Canadian]

[quote name='DJ Watts' timestamp='1392580178' post='8680501']
[quote name='Aaronpaige' timestamp='1392580063' post='8680483']
DJWatts,


I think your misinterpreting how Tiger and Rory are getting into this position. They are not forcing anything, they are simply hinging from the hips, just like Jack did.

They are getting into a comfortable position. None of the above players manipulated muscles by contorting anything. Thats how their body felt balanced.
[/quote]

Now you're saying that Tiger and Rory swing the same way as Jack?

Have a great day, hopefully we'll speak again.

Best,

DJ Watts
[/quote]

No I'm saying that they got into the most comfortable position over the ball.

[Hoganstriker]

[quote name='DJ Watts' timestamp='1392576711' post='8680217']
Greetings friends,

I have retrieved something I watched a while ago as this discussion sparked the memory.

I'd ask that you pay close attention, in fact I'd even [b][i]pausing[/i][/b] this video at [b]2:25[/b] and comparing the doctor's address position with the modern one. Also, note where he say to incline from - the hips. Note as well the spine position that he calls [b][i]"neutral"[/i][/b] in his stance - he has a visible curve in the upper back region at the shoulders, you see outward curve of the mid-back and then the inward curve of the lower back. This is the [i][b]"S"[/b][/i] curve of a neutral spine position viewed laterally. The doctor addresses [u][b][i]slouching[/i][/b][/u] in this video but the same would be said for an [u][b][i]overly rigid and straight back[/i][/b][/u] - neither are neutral.

Again, I [i]never [/i]said to[i] "slouch,"[/i] I said one should stand with one's back relaxed and neutral, which will show curves, not a straight line.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvDnZlT3UqY[/media]

Again at [b]3:30[/b] and beyond, watch him assume the [i]"leaning over"[/i] stance of the modern swing, and here he's talking about reaching but it doesn't matter why you're leaning over at that angle because when you stand more erect at [b]4:10[/b], you can hear him clearly state [b][i]"you can feel that tension come off of the spine..."[/i][/b]

Have a great Sunday, everyone!

DJ Watts
[/quote]

That was neat I really liked what he had to say about tension.

[pinhigh27]

What? You don't think that Rory is more bent at the waist than the old pictures? The whole point of bending the knees in that situation is to counterbalance the weight of the chest being leaned forward now. Hence why the old guys don't have their legs bent as much, as also don't have as much bend at the hip. Compare the pictures.

[DJ Watts]

[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1392580734' post='8680551']
[quote name='DJ Watts' timestamp='1392576711' post='8680217']
Greetings friends,

I have retrieved something I watched a while ago as this discussion sparked the memory.

I'd ask that you pay close attention, in fact I'd even [b][i]pausing[/i][/b] this video at [b]2:25[/b] and comparing the doctor's address position with the modern one. Also, note where he say to incline from - the hips. Note as well the spine position that he calls [b][i]"neutral"[/i][/b] in his stance - he has a visible curve in the upper back region at the shoulders, you see outward curve of the mid-back and then the inward curve of the lower back. This is the [i][b]"S"[/b][/i] curve of a neutral spine position viewed laterally. The doctor addresses [u][b][i]slouching[/i][/b][/u] in this video but the same would be said for an [u][b][i]overly rigid and straight back[/i][/b][/u] - neither are neutral.

Again, I [i]never [/i]said to[i] "slouch,"[/i] I said one should stand with one's back relaxed and neutral, which will show curves, not a straight line.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvDnZlT3UqY[/media]

Again at [b]3:30[/b] and beyond, watch him assume the [i]"leaning over"[/i] stance of the modern swing, and here he's talking about reaching but it doesn't matter why you're leaning over at that angle because when you stand more erect at [b]4:10[/b], you can hear him clearly state [b][i]"you can feel that tension come off of the spine..."[/i][/b]

Have a great Sunday, everyone!

DJ Watts
[/quote]

That was neat I really liked what he had to say about tension.
[/quote]

Hi Hoganstriker,

Tension is a killer. Part of the reason Hogan swung so smoothly in fact was the relaxed upper back region. When you straighten the back, especially the upper back where the natural curve is - straighten that out and you find your entire upper torso stiffens up, the scapula seizes up, and now you're stuck.

Try this, if you're sitting down in a chair - sitting facing forward, straighten your upper back and then try to lift your right elbow back and behind you keeping that spine straight.

Now, relax your back but don't slouch, just keep the natural [i]"S"[/i] curve in your spine. Now, make the same motion with the right elbow and you tell me which position feels better and goes further.

Have a great Sunday!

DJ Watts

[Hoganstriker]

What I see is this:here's an older time guy at address:

[attachment=2071829:Hogan address.jpg]

Heres around impact:

[attachment=2071831:Hogan impact.png]

Now doesn't that look like a safer position than this?


[attachment=2071833:Tiger 2013.jpg]

DJ, cool thread.

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1392581320' post='8680605']
What I see is this:here's an older time guy at address:

[attachment=2071829:Hogan address.jpg]

Heres around impact:

[attachment=2071831:Hogan impact.png]

Now doesn't that look like a safer position than this?


[attachment=2071833:Tiger 2013.jpg]

DJ, cool thread.
[/quote]

But see here's the thing. You say look. I can show you tons of things that look efficient but really aren't. We can't just say that because it looks un-natural to you, that it is. I'm not saying you are wrong or right, just that how something LOOKS doesn't mean anything in terms of what is safe and isn't. If we go down that road, it's just going to be scaring people with images that aren't understood to get our message across.

[DJ Watts]

[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1392581320' post='8680605']
What I see is this:here's an older time guy at address:

[attachment=2071829:Hogan address.jpg]

Heres around impact:

[attachment=2071831:Hogan impact.png]

Now doesn't that look like a safer position than this?


[attachment=2071833:Tiger 2013.jpg]

DJ, cool thread.
[/quote]

Hoganstriker, that is a picture comparison worth a thousand words. I'd have to say, [b][i]"Yes!"[/i][/b]

You'll note as well that however Tiger starts, he's contorting his body to get into the impact position that does not match his address position. Better to start from that position, no?

Best,

DJ

[DJ Watts]

Don't look now, but who won today's PGA Tour event - another guy who can hit it a mile without ever hurting himself and who stands with a relaxed and neutral spine position?

 

 

Look at Bubba's spine post-impact in the follow-through pictures - the spine flexes and curves during motion, it doesn't stay straight and it shouldn't be straight to begin with.

 

Great address position!

 

Good Sunday night, all.

 

DJ Watts

[pinhigh27]

Don't look now, but who won today's PGA Tour event - another guy who can hit it a mile without ever hurting himself and who stands with a relaxed and neutral spine position?

 

 

Look at Bubba's spine post-impact in the follow-through pictures - the spine flexes and curves during motion, it doesn't stay straight and it shouldn't be straight to begin with.

 

Great address position!

 

Good Sunday night, all.

 

DJ Watts

 

Compare Bubba at impact with Tiger in that impact shot HoganStriker provided that HoganStriker said was unsafe. Look pretty similar to me. A lot more similar than the old. I don't really see the problem with Tiger's position compared to the old impact shot. All Tiger is doing is keeping his upper body back more, and thus extending more. Don't ever really hear anyone complain about too much extension.

[DJ Watts]

Don't look now, but who won today's PGA Tour event - another guy who can hit it a mile without ever hurting himself and who stands with a relaxed and neutral spine position?

 

 

Look at Bubba's spine post-impact in the follow-through pictures - the spine flexes and curves during motion, it doesn't stay straight and it shouldn't be straight to begin with.

 

Great address position!

 

Good Sunday night, all.

 

DJ Watts

 

Compare Bubba at impact with Tiger in that impact shot HoganStriker provided that HoganStriker said was unsafe. Look pretty similar to me. A lot more similar than the old. I don't really see the problem with Tiger's position compared to the old impact shot. All Tiger is doing is keeping his upper body back more, and thus extending more. Don't ever really hear anyone complain about too much extension.

 

hello pinhigh27,

 

Bubba hits it a mile past Tiger effortlessly, that should give you a clue that their impact positions are not the same, and their address positions are night and day. You say "all Tiger is doing" and you then describe the very difference in their impact positions (so how can they be the same?), but you're correct there.

 

Tiger's impact position is unnatural and crunched in the right lower back, and all that violent left-side action to even get to this position (which he wouldn't have to do with a more natural address stance and posture) is why his knee is gone and he keeps hurting himself. Bubba will swing away and not turn a hair. There's really no comparison between distance vs work - Bubba wins that hands down against Tiger.

 

Best,

 

DJ Watts

[pinhigh27]

Don't look now, but who won today's PGA Tour event - another guy who can hit it a mile without ever hurting himself and who stands with a relaxed and neutral spine position?

 

 

Look at Bubba's spine post-impact in the follow-through pictures - the spine flexes and curves during motion, it doesn't stay straight and it shouldn't be straight to begin with.

 

Great address position!

 

Good Sunday night, all.

 

DJ Watts

 

Compare Bubba at impact with Tiger in that impact shot HoganStriker provided that HoganStriker said was unsafe. Look pretty similar to me. A lot more similar than the old. I don't really see the problem with Tiger's position compared to the old impact shot. All Tiger is doing is keeping his upper body back more, and thus extending more. Don't ever really hear anyone complain about too much extension.

 

hello pinhigh27,

 

Bubba hits it a mile past Tiger effortlessly, that should give you a clue that their impact positions are not the same, and their address positions are night and day. You say "all Tiger is doing" and you then describe the very difference in their impact positions (so how can they be the same?), but you're correct there.

 

Tiger's impact position is unnatural and crunched in the right lower back, and all that violent left-side action to even get to this position (which he wouldn't have to do with a more natural address stance and posture) is why his knee is gone and he keeps hurting himself. Bubba will swing away and not turn a hair. There's really no comparison between distance vs work - Bubba wins that hands down against Tiger.

 

Best,

 

DJ Watts

 

My bad on that writing. With regards to the all he's doing, I mean in regards to Tiger vs old, not Tiger vs Bubba. However Tiger is also extending a little more than Bubba, which is why you see more of the "crunch." Bubba is definitely closer to Tiger than the old pictures in my opinion.

 

I said efficiency, that doesn't necessarily infer superiority. Bubba still gets better numbers, but all extending is going to do is allow a player to have more distance ideal conditions. I don't understand what is low effort in Bubba's swing. His feet are in the air more than they are on the ground. (Might be a slight exaggeration but could actually be true, haven't actually timed it). However I think you're exaggerating quite a bit to say that Bubba isn't working in his swing. I hate using the word "hard " in a golf context, but I'd say that Bubba swings "harder" than tiger.

[DJ Watts]

Don't look now, but who won today's PGA Tour event - another guy who can hit it a mile without ever hurting himself and who stands with a relaxed and neutral spine position?

 

 

Look at Bubba's spine post-impact in the follow-through pictures - the spine flexes and curves during motion, it doesn't stay straight and it shouldn't be straight to begin with.

 

Great address position!

 

Good Sunday night, all.

 

DJ Watts

 

Compare Bubba at impact with Tiger in that impact shot HoganStriker provided that HoganStriker said was unsafe. Look pretty similar to me. A lot more similar than the old. I don't really see the problem with Tiger's position compared to the old impact shot. All Tiger is doing is keeping his upper body back more, and thus extending more. Don't ever really hear anyone complain about too much extension.

 

hello pinhigh27,

 

Bubba hits it a mile past Tiger effortlessly, that should give you a clue that their impact positions are not the same, and their address positions are night and day. You say "all Tiger is doing" and you then describe the very difference in their impact positions (so how can they be the same?), but you're correct there.

 

Tiger's impact position is unnatural and crunched in the right lower back, and all that violent left-side action to even get to this position (which he wouldn't have to do with a more natural address stance and posture) is why his knee is gone and he keeps hurting himself. Bubba will swing away and not turn a hair. There's really no comparison between distance vs work - Bubba wins that hands down against Tiger.

 

Best,

 

DJ Watts

 

My bad on that writing. With regards to the all he's doing, I mean in regards to Tiger vs old, not Tiger vs Bubba. However Tiger is also extending a little more than Bubba, which is why you see more of the "crunch." Bubba is definitely closer to Tiger than the old pictures in my opinion.

 

I said efficiency, that doesn't necessarily infer superiority. Bubba still gets better numbers, but all extending is going to do is allow a player to have more distance ideal conditions. I don't understand what is low effort in Bubba's swing. His feet are in the air more than they are on the ground. (Might be a slight exaggeration but could actually be true, haven't actually timed it). However I think you're exaggerating quite a bit to say that Bubba isn't working in his swing. I hate using the word "hard " in a golf context, but I'd say that Bubba swings "harder" than tiger.

 

don't get me wrong, pinhigh - Bubba's swing isn't perfect, but the man generates leverage the right way, with his positioning and pivot, not with muscle power. Bubba's no where near as muscular as Tiger but he hits it past him with ease. He doesn't transfer his weight as well as he could on the down swing, but he's in the right place at the top of the back swing from which to kill the ball.

 

How he does it is right there - his stance is more erect and the spine relaxed, the knees aren't deeply bent, so his pivot is unimpeded and he's in the erect position at impact that he doesn't have to get to, which would be the case if he were leaning over the ball and bending his knees.

 

Tiger is a far better golfer than Bubba, but Bubba is the superior swinger in all the right places.

 

Best,

 

DJ Watts

[Guia]

I don't believe that I have met any golfer over 35 who does not have back or shoulder problems. The older you get the more injuries.

[Hoganstriker]

Here's something I notice Snead vs Tiger. Tiger's squat jump deal is similar to Snead to my eye in some ways but look at this.
[attachment=2072749:Tiger 2013 driver.jpg] [attachment=2072753:Sneadthrough.jpg]

[DJ Watts]

[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1392602366' post='8683117']
Here's something I notice Snead vs Tiger. Tiger's squat jump deal is similar to Snead to my eye in some ways but look at this.
[attachment=2072749:Tiger 2013 driver.jpg] [attachment=2072753:Sneadthrough.jpg]
[/quote]

Hi Hoganstriker, good catch - Tiger is like so many golfers who [i]"hang on"[/i] to that left arm angle instead of allowing a full and free release. With a free release, you'll see the left wrist and arm begin to fold out of the way after reaching that straight angle, but Tiger would call that a flip - and Sam Snead smashed the ball, winning Tour events into his 50's...

As for the similar positions at impact - they're all going to be similar for the most part, but the key here is that Tiger is snapping violently upward to get to this position, where Snead was already standing relaxed and more erect at address. Look how Snead looks to be almost sinking into the impact where Tiger is visibly jamming upward - hurts just to look at that...

Sam's swing was made to last. He could drive it over 300 yards with persimmon and balata - not bad for a guy with such a bad [i]"posture"[/i] at address!

The mistake is looking strictly at positions and trying to emulate them - Tiger would say he's got Snead's position, but the action before and after these positions are vastly different between Snead and Woods.


Best,

DJ Watts

[Stampa]

Assuming golfers have more back problems these days...Could it be that today's golfers, in general, simply hit a lot more balls than the old timers did? With some exceptions, I'm pretty sure 8-hour practice sessions were not the norm in Snead's day like they are now.

[Hoganstriker]

DJ, yeah if you put up the whole swing Snead had a beautiful leg action and hip action that allowed him to have that free release.
I don't see Tiger having the room he needs being right on top of the ball then squatting in transition so much. You're right he HAS to jump way up and there's still no room so he can't really free release through the ball like he could when he was younger.

[gabh]

[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1392601912' post='8683069']
I don't believe that I have met any golfer over 35 who does not have back or shoulder problems. The older you get the more injuries.
[/quote]

I'll guess, all of them try to straighten their upper spine at address?..

[gabh]

[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1392604973' post='8683439']
DJ, yeah if you put up the whole swing Snead had a beautiful leg action and hip action that allowed him to have that free release.
I don't see Tiger having the room he needs being right on top of the ball then squatting in transition so much. You're right he HAS to jump way up and there's still no room so he can't really free release through the ball like he could when he was younger.
[/quote]

Tiger's radius too long for his ball position and impact hand location, hence the need to get the left shoulder higher at impact to accommodate that radius. Snead doesn't. Plus Snead uses that right arm hard. Obvious in that picture. And he said it too in his book.

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392608651' post='8683989']
[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1392601912' post='8683069']
I don't believe that I have met any golfer over 35 who does not have back or shoulder problems. The older you get the more injuries.
[/quote]

I'll guess, all of them try to straighten their upper spine at address?..
[/quote]

That's not the problem. The people who probably don't do a ton of exercise outside of golf are swinging a club around at 90 mph about 100 times a round and then 50 times before, along with being bent and hunched over for probably 20 minutes a round(putting). That's like saying if you know how to run properly, you can play basketball when you're 50. Know a few guys with both knees replaced because of trying to do that . It's higher stress than most think. Clubs are longer now, thus forces are higher. People are less active outside of golf than ever. Bags are heavier than before. People probably carry a lot more now than before(caddies- or lack thereof). Honestly just looking at it objectively, whatever you deem ideal and efficient, I highly highly doubt that someone's address position is even among the top 5 contributing factors to golf injuries among people.

[Fort Worth Pro]

[quote name='DJ Watts' timestamp='1392576711' post='8680217']
Greetings friends,

I have retrieved something I watched a while ago as this discussion sparked the memory.

I'd ask that you pay close attention, in fact I'd even [b][i]pausing[/i][/b] this video at [b]2:25[/b] and comparing the doctor's address position with the modern one. Also, note where he say to incline from - the hips. Note as well the spine position that he calls [b][i]"neutral"[/i][/b] in his stance - he has a visible curve in the upper back region at the shoulders, you see outward curve of the mid-back and then the inward curve of the lower back. This is the [i][b]"S"[/b][/i] curve of a neutral spine position viewed laterally. The doctor addresses [u][b][i]slouching[/i][/b][/u] in this video but the same would be said for an [u][b][i]overly rigid and straight back[/i][/b][/u] - neither are neutral.

Again, I [i]never [/i]said to[i] "slouch,"[/i] I said one should stand with one's back relaxed and neutral, which will show curves, not a straight line.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvDnZlT3UqY[/media]

Again at [b]3:30[/b] and beyond, watch him assume the [i]"leaning over"[/i] stance of the modern swing, and here he's talking about reaching but it doesn't matter why you're leaning over at that angle because when you stand more erect at [b]4:10[/b], you can hear him clearly state [b][i]"you can feel that tension come off of the spine..."[/i][/b]

Have a great Sunday, everyone!

DJ Watts
[/quote]

Did you even watch this? Starting at 1:25 he completely contradicts everything you have argued for in this entire thread. When he says erect spine this guy is talking about the upper back needing to be straighter because a flexed spine doesn't turn. At 3:30 he is talking about being too far from the ball and reaching for it. I have a serious question...how much success have you had in tournament golf? Do you play tournaments or just do research and hit drivers?

[gabh]

[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392610085' post='8684181']
[quote name='DJ Watts' timestamp='1392576711' post='8680217']
Greetings friends,

I have retrieved something I watched a while ago as this discussion sparked the memory.

I'd ask that you pay close attention, in fact I'd even [b][i]pausing[/i][/b] this video at [b]2:25[/b] and comparing the doctor's address position with the modern one. Also, note where he say to incline from - the hips. Note as well the spine position that he calls [b][i]"neutral"[/i][/b] in his stance - he has a visible curve in the upper back region at the shoulders, you see outward curve of the mid-back and then the inward curve of the lower back. This is the [i][b]"S"[/b][/i] curve of a neutral spine position viewed laterally. The doctor addresses [u][b][i]slouching[/i][/b][/u] in this video but the same would be said for an [u][b][i]overly rigid and straight back[/i][/b][/u] - neither are neutral.

Again, I [i]never [/i]said to[i] "slouch,"[/i] I said one should stand with one's back relaxed and neutral, which will show curves, not a straight line.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvDnZlT3UqY[/media]

Again at [b]3:30[/b] and beyond, watch him assume the [i]"leaning over"[/i] stance of the modern swing, and here he's talking about reaching but it doesn't matter why you're leaning over at that angle because when you stand more erect at [b]4:10[/b], you can hear him clearly state [b][i]"you can feel that tension come off of the spine..."[/i][/b]

Have a great Sunday, everyone!

DJ Watts
[/quote]

Did you even watch this? Starting at 1:25 he completely contradicts everything you have argued for in this entire thread. When he says erect spine this guy is talking about the upper back needing to be straighter because a flexed spine doesn't turn. At 3:30 he is talking about being too far from the ball and reaching for it. I have a serious question...how much success have you had in tournament golf? Do you play tournaments or just do research and hit drivers?
[/quote]

FWPro, maybe that's the problem. Many would like is to turn the whole spine, when what we just need,mid we come to think of it,is get the left shoulder down under the chin. That's just what's needed--for the left shoulder to get as far as possible from the target while going around the center/axle. In this case, straighter spine would be a problem. A flexed thoracic means it's easier to get the left shoulder down and under the chin.

Maybe the deductions to arrive at DJ's conclusions are wrong. Just maybe. But I think he's more right about the conclusions.

[golfdude300]

Thanks for the thread DJ! I don't want to move the thread in a different direction. Perhaps in your next research project you could analyze Pro golfers swings vs. Total Driving Efficiency.

The ratio of a player's average total distance and his average swing speed when measured by the radar device (Average Total Distance / Average Swing Speed). This creates a ratio of yards per miles per hour.

This fairly new statistic shows who is getting the most power from their engine. Bubba averages 323 off the tee with a SS of about 124 is ranked 40th. That means 39 other players are actually more efficient off the tee.

[url="http://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.02411.html#2014"]http://www.pgatour.c...02411.html#2014[/url]

David Toms lead the Tour in this stat in 2012 with a SS of 104 and a driving distance of 290. Thanks again!

[Fort Worth Pro]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392610499' post='8684227']
[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392610085' post='8684181']
[quote name='DJ Watts' timestamp='1392576711' post='8680217']
Greetings friends,

I have retrieved something I watched a while ago as this discussion sparked the memory.

I'd ask that you pay close attention, in fact I'd even [b][i]pausing[/i][/b] this video at [b]2:25[/b] and comparing the doctor's address position with the modern one. Also, note where he say to incline from - the hips. Note as well the spine position that he calls [b][i]"neutral"[/i][/b] in his stance - he has a visible curve in the upper back region at the shoulders, you see outward curve of the mid-back and then the inward curve of the lower back. This is the [i][b]"S"[/b][/i] curve of a neutral spine position viewed laterally. The doctor addresses [u][b][i]slouching[/i][/b][/u] in this video but the same would be said for an [u][b][i]overly rigid and straight back[/i][/b][/u] - neither are neutral.

Again, I [i]never [/i]said to[i] "slouch,"[/i] I said one should stand with one's back relaxed and neutral, which will show curves, not a straight line.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvDnZlT3UqY[/media]

Again at [b]3:30[/b] and beyond, watch him assume the [i]"leaning over"[/i] stance of the modern swing, and here he's talking about reaching but it doesn't matter why you're leaning over at that angle because when you stand more erect at [b]4:10[/b], you can hear him clearly state [b][i]"you can feel that tension come off of the spine..."[/i][/b]

Have a great Sunday, everyone!

DJ Watts
[/quote]

Did you even watch this? Starting at 1:25 he completely contradicts everything you have argued for in this entire thread. When he says erect spine this guy is talking about the upper back needing to be straighter because a flexed spine doesn't turn. At 3:30 he is talking about being too far from the ball and reaching for it. I have a serious question...how much success have you had in tournament golf? Do you play tournaments or just do research and hit drivers?
[/quote]

FWPro, maybe that's the problem. Many would like is to turn the whole spine, when what we just need,mid we come to think of it,is get the left shoulder down under the chin. That's just what's needed--for the left shoulder to get as far as possible from the target while going around the center/axle. In this case, straighter spine would be a problem. A flexed thoracic means it's easier to get the left shoulder down and under the chin.

Maybe the deductions to arrive at DJ's conclusions are wrong. Just maybe. But I think he's more right about the conclusions.
[/quote]

A flexed thoracic is not what gets the left shoulder under the chin. Left side bend in the thoracic is what gets the shoulders turning down. It was true of hogan, Snead and jack and it is true of tiger rory and anyone else that swings a golf club.

[gabh]

[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392610990' post='8684291']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392610499' post='8684227']
[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392610085' post='8684181']
[quote name='DJ Watts' timestamp='1392576711' post='8680217']
Greetings friends,

I have retrieved something I watched a while ago as this discussion sparked the memory.

I'd ask that you pay close attention, in fact I'd even [b][i]pausing[/i][/b] this video at [b]2:25[/b] and comparing the doctor's address position with the modern one. Also, note where he say to incline from - the hips. Note as well the spine position that he calls [b][i]"neutral"[/i][/b] in his stance - he has a visible curve in the upper back region at the shoulders, you see outward curve of the mid-back and then the inward curve of the lower back. This is the [i][b]"S"[/b][/i] curve of a neutral spine position viewed laterally. The doctor addresses [u][b][i]slouching[/i][/b][/u] in this video but the same would be said for an [u][b][i]overly rigid and straight back[/i][/b][/u] - neither are neutral.

Again, I [i]never [/i]said to[i] "slouch,"[/i] I said one should stand with one's back relaxed and neutral, which will show curves, not a straight line.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvDnZlT3UqY[/media]

Again at [b]3:30[/b] and beyond, watch him assume the [i]"leaning over"[/i] stance of the modern swing, and here he's talking about reaching but it doesn't matter why you're leaning over at that angle because when you stand more erect at [b]4:10[/b], you can hear him clearly state [b][i]"you can feel that tension come off of the spine..."[/i][/b]

Have a great Sunday, everyone!

DJ Watts
[/quote]

Did you even watch this? Starting at 1:25 he completely contradicts everything you have argued for in this entire thread. When he says erect spine this guy is talking about the upper back needing to be straighter because a flexed spine doesn't turn. At 3:30 he is talking about being too far from the ball and reaching for it. I have a serious question...how much success have you had in tournament golf? Do you play tournaments or just do research and hit drivers?
[/quote]

FWPro, maybe that's the problem. Many would like is to turn the whole spine, when what we just need,mid we come to think of it,is get the left shoulder down under the chin. That's just what's needed--for the left shoulder to get as far as possible from the target while going around the center/axle. In this case, straighter spine would be a problem. A flexed thoracic means it's easier to get the left shoulder down and under the chin.

Maybe the deductions to arrive at DJ's conclusions are wrong. Just maybe. But I think he's more right about the conclusions.
[/quote]

A flexed thoracic is not what gets the left shoulder under the chin. Left side bend in the thoracic is what gets the shoulders turning down. It was true of hogan, Snead and jack and it is true of tiger rory and anyone else that swings a golf club.
[/quote]

I agree. But left shoulder down will be a lot easier and needs less compression of the lower back if the thoracic is flexed more rather than straightened up. We can do this and actually compare by drills even without a club. With a straightened up thoracic, we would have to "crunch" the left side more, which includes "crunch" or compression of the left side of the lumbar spine. That would mean more compression of the spinal discs.

[Fort Worth Pro]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392613758' post='8684513']
[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392610990' post='8684291']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392610499' post='8684227']
[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392610085' post='8684181']
[quote name='DJ Watts' timestamp='1392576711' post='8680217']
Greetings friends,

I have retrieved something I watched a while ago as this discussion sparked the memory.

I'd ask that you pay close attention, in fact I'd even [b][i]pausing[/i][/b] this video at [b]2:25[/b] and comparing the doctor's address position with the modern one. Also, note where he say to incline from - the hips. Note as well the spine position that he calls [b][i]"neutral"[/i][/b] in his stance - he has a visible curve in the upper back region at the shoulders, you see outward curve of the mid-back and then the inward curve of the lower back. This is the [i][b]"S"[/b][/i] curve of a neutral spine position viewed laterally. The doctor addresses [u][b][i]slouching[/i][/b][/u] in this video but the same would be said for an [u][b][i]overly rigid and straight back[/i][/b][/u] - neither are neutral.

Again, I [i]never [/i]said to[i] "slouch,"[/i] I said one should stand with one's back relaxed and neutral, which will show curves, not a straight line.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvDnZlT3UqY[/media]

Again at [b]3:30[/b] and beyond, watch him assume the [i]"leaning over"[/i] stance of the modern swing, and here he's talking about reaching but it doesn't matter why you're leaning over at that angle because when you stand more erect at [b]4:10[/b], you can hear him clearly state [b][i]"you can feel that tension come off of the spine..."[/i][/b]

Have a great Sunday, everyone!

DJ Watts
[/quote]

Did you even watch this? Starting at 1:25 he completely contradicts everything you have argued for in this entire thread. When he says erect spine this guy is talking about the upper back needing to be straighter because a flexed spine doesn't turn. At 3:30 he is talking about being too far from the ball and reaching for it. I have a serious question...how much success have you had in tournament golf? Do you play tournaments or just do research and hit drivers?
[/quote]

FWPro, maybe that's the problem. Many would like is to turn the whole spine, when what we just need,mid we come to think of it,is get the left shoulder down under the chin. That's just what's needed--for the left shoulder to get as far as possible from the target while going around the center/axle. In this case, straighter spine would be a problem. A flexed thoracic means it's easier to get the left shoulder down and under the chin.

Maybe the deductions to arrive at DJ's conclusions are wrong. Just maybe. But I think he's more right about the conclusions.
[/quote]

A flexed thoracic is not what gets the left shoulder under the chin. Left side bend in the thoracic is what gets the shoulders turning down. It was true of hogan, Snead and jack and it is true of tiger rory and anyone else that swings a golf club.
[/quote]

I agree. But left shoulder down will be a lot easier and needs less compression of the lower back if the thoracic is flexed more rather than straightened up. We can do this and actually compare by drills even without a club. With a straightened up thoracic, we would have to "crunch" the left side more, which includes "crunch" or compression of the left side of the lumbar spine. That would mean more compression of the spinal discs.
[/quote]

If the hips do what they should and the lumbar does what it should you don't get "compression" on the lower back. The lumbar will laterally flex to the right as the left hip extends, externally rotates and abducts. There is no "crunch" in a biomechaniclly sound swing

[gabh]

[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392614438' post='8684563']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392613758' post='8684513']
[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392610990' post='8684291']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392610499' post='8684227']
[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392610085' post='8684181']
[quote name='DJ Watts' timestamp='1392576711' post='8680217']
Greetings friends,

I have retrieved something I watched a while ago as this discussion sparked the memory.

I'd ask that you pay close attention, in fact I'd even [b][i]pausing[/i][/b] this video at [b]2:25[/b] and comparing the doctor's address position with the modern one. Also, note where he say to incline from - the hips. Note as well the spine position that he calls [b][i]"neutral"[/i][/b] in his stance - he has a visible curve in the upper back region at the shoulders, you see outward curve of the mid-back and then the inward curve of the lower back. This is the [i][b]"S"[/b][/i] curve of a neutral spine position viewed laterally. The doctor addresses [u][b][i]slouching[/i][/b][/u] in this video but the same would be said for an [u][b][i]overly rigid and straight back[/i][/b][/u] - neither are neutral.

Again, I [i]never [/i]said to[i] "slouch,"[/i] I said one should stand with one's back relaxed and neutral, which will show curves, not a straight line.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvDnZlT3UqY[/media]

Again at [b]3:30[/b] and beyond, watch him assume the [i]"leaning over"[/i] stance of the modern swing, and here he's talking about reaching but it doesn't matter why you're leaning over at that angle because when you stand more erect at [b]4:10[/b], you can hear him clearly state [b][i]"you can feel that tension come off of the spine..."[/i][/b]

Have a great Sunday, everyone!

DJ Watts
[/quote]

Did you even watch this? Starting at 1:25 he completely contradicts everything you have argued for in this entire thread. When he says erect spine this guy is talking about the upper back needing to be straighter because a flexed spine doesn't turn. At 3:30 he is talking about being too far from the ball and reaching for it. I have a serious question...how much success have you had in tournament golf? Do you play tournaments or just do research and hit drivers?
[/quote]

FWPro, maybe that's the problem. Many would like is to turn the whole spine, when what we just need,mid we come to think of it,is get the left shoulder down under the chin. That's just what's needed--for the left shoulder to get as far as possible from the target while going around the center/axle. In this case, straighter spine would be a problem. A flexed thoracic means it's easier to get the left shoulder down and under the chin.

Maybe the deductions to arrive at DJ's conclusions are wrong. Just maybe. But I think he's more right about the conclusions.
[/quote]

A flexed thoracic is not what gets the left shoulder under the chin. Left side bend in the thoracic is what gets the shoulders turning down. It was true of hogan, Snead and jack and it is true of tiger rory and anyone else that swings a golf club.
[/quote]

I agree. But left shoulder down will be a lot easier and needs less compression of the lower back if the thoracic is flexed more rather than straightened up. We can do this and actually compare by drills even without a club. With a straightened up thoracic, we would have to "crunch" the left side more, which includes "crunch" or compression of the left side of the lumbar spine. That would mean more compression of the spinal discs.
[/quote]

If the hips do what they should and the lumbar does what it should you don't get "compression" on the lower back. The lumbar will laterally flex to the right as the left hip extends, externally rotates and abducts. There is no "crunch" in a biomechaniclly sound swing
[/quote]

"The lumbar will laterally flex to the right..."---exactly what I'm saying. The less the thoracic flexion, the more you have to do this in order tote the shoulders to turn steeper or less flat. So more straight vs more flexed thoracic, the former would need more lateral flex to the right in backswing and to the left in downswing to get the shoulders to turn on the same inclined plane. Same thing happens in downswing and even for a greater degree and in other direction if you're the type of golfer that actively turns or laterally moves the hips in transition or downswing.

[Fort Worth Pro]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392615172' post='8684605']


"The lumbar will laterally flex to the right..."---exactly what I'm saying. The less the thoracic flexion, the more you have to do this in order tote the shoulders to turn steeper or less flat. So more straight vs more flexed thoracic, the former would need more lateral flex to the right in backswing and to the left in downswing to get the shoulders to turn on the same inclined plane. Same thing happens in downswing and even for a greater degree and in other direction if you're the type of golfer that actively turns or laterally moves the hips in transition or downswing.
[/quote]

The lumbar doesn't flex to the right to turn the shoulders steeper. The lumbar flexes to the right as the pelvis drops down thanks to the abduction of the left hip and adduction of the right hip. If the lumbar didn't laterally flex to the right your upper body would tip WAY over.

[gabh]

[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392615660' post='8684627']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392615172' post='8684605']


"The lumbar will laterally flex to the right..."---exactly what I'm saying. The less the thoracic flexion, the more you have to do this in order tote the shoulders to turn steeper or less flat. So more straight vs more flexed thoracic, the former would need more lateral flex to the right in backswing and to the left in downswing to get the shoulders to turn on the same inclined plane. Same thing happens in downswing and even for a greater degree and in other direction if you're the type of golfer that actively turns or laterally moves the hips in transition or downswing.
[/quote]

The lumbar doesn't flex to the right to turn the shoulders steeper. The lumbar flexes to the right as the pelvis drops down thanks to the abduction of the left hip and adduction of the right hip. If the lumbar didn't laterally flex to the right your upper body would tip WAY over.
[/quote]

IMO, it does have to do more with the inclined shoulder turn. We can see this doing two comparative drills. Go to your usual address, the turn your shoulders as level as possible to the ground (like a merry go round). You'll notice that the pelvic tilts less, and the left knee bends less.

In 2nd grill, turn your shoulders as steep as possible (like a Ferris wheel). You'll notice that you need to tilt the pelvis more and the left knee has to bend more.

So I think the ultimate or grandfather cause is the shoulder turn inclination.

I have lower back pain, and when I do the left shoulder down and parallel shoulder and pelvic tilts on top on DTL view, a more flexed thoracic (I don't force it, I just adopt my normal thoracic flex) removes or doesn't result to any pain on my lower back despite my use of hips actively in transition. If ever I have pains, it's the muscles, but never the nerves or discs. You can play along with hurt muscles, but never with hurt nerves or discs. Trying to straighten my back at address almost instantaneously cause pains sooner or later, the nerve and discs type.

Again, we have to consult doctors here as I'm not one. Just sharing my experiences and thoughts on this. Note also that my opinion comes from someone (me) who actively uses the hips in transition. Hogan and Nicklaus uses hips too. So maybe this is why.

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1392506873' post='8676129']
Touching back on the squatting issue and somehow being superior for the old guys(which is completely incorrect), this is precisely the reason that a squatter retracts their shoulders when squatting. Again, not as structurally sound(and thus injury proof) when the shoulders are just sitting there, versus when they are retracted. Back is also less rounded when the shoulders are retracted.
[/quote]

You dont retract the shoulders when squating. You actually apply an upward pressure with the hands to tuck the scapulas under otherwise you wont have enough thoracic extension and ggetting to parallel is hopeless