Snead, Hogan & Nicklaus vs Tiger, Rory Etc.

[DJ Watts]

Henrick Stenson's swing isn't perfect, but this is the swing of the future - tall, erect posture with a relaxe, neutral spine, and he swings on a 3-dimensional plane more than the 2-dimensional aspect of the modern swing, even the older swing.

The swing is 3-dimensional with an inward arc to the top and a swing out through the ball.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZOJRhL_-J8

I was very critical of Stenson's swing a few years ago, but the work he's doing is Pete Cowen is amazing. I don't agree 100% with Pete's visual of the swing angle (and that's why Stenson struggles with driver), but if either Stenson or Cowen figures out the true angle, it's over. Stenson will win everything going away provided he remembers how to chip, putt and manage the course.

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='DJ Watts' timestamp='1392637927' post='8685129']
Henrick Stenson's swing isn't perfect, but this is the swing of the future - tall, erect posture with a relaxe, neutral spine, and he swings on a 3-dimensional plane more than the 2-dimensional aspect of the modern swing, even the older swing.

The swing is 3-dimensional with an inward arc to the top and a swing out through the ball.


[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZOJRhL_-J8[/media]

I was very critical of Stenson's swing a few years ago, but the work he's doing is Pete Cowen is amazing. I don't agree 100% with Pete's visual of the swing angle (and that's why Stenson struggles with driver), but if either Stenson or Cowen figures out the true angle, it's over. Stenson will win everything going away provided he remembers how to chip, putt and manage the course.
[/quote]

Don't really understand what you wrote, but someone should call the police........ he just murdered those balls.

[gabh]

[quote name='DJ Watts' timestamp='1392637927' post='8685129']
Henrick Stenson's swing isn't perfect, but this is the swing of the future - tall, erect posture with a relaxe, neutral spine, and he swings on a 3-dimensional plane more than the 2-dimensional aspect of the modern swing, even the older swing.

The swing is 3-dimensional with an inward arc to the top and a swing out through the ball.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZOJRhL_-J8

I was very critical of Stenson's swing a few years ago, but the work he's doing is Pete Cowen is amazing. I don't agree 100% with Pete's visual of the swing angle (and that's why Stenson struggles with driver), but if either Stenson or Cowen figures out the true angle, it's over. Stenson will win everything going away provided he remembers how to chip, putt and manage the course.
[/quote]

What "true angle"?

[Fort Worth Pro]

[quote name='DJ Watts' timestamp='1392637927' post='8685129']
Henrick Stenson's swing isn't perfect, but this is the swing of the future - tall, erect posture with a relaxe, neutral spine, and he swings on a 3-dimensional plane more than the 2-dimensional aspect of the modern swing, even the older swing.

The swing is 3-dimensional with an inward arc to the top and a swing out through the ball.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZOJRhL_-J8

I was very critical of Stenson's swing a few years ago, but the work he's doing is Pete Cowen is amazing. I don't agree 100% with Pete's visual of the swing angle (and that's why Stenson struggles with driver), but if either Stenson or Cowen figures out the true angle, it's over. Stenson will win everything going away provided he remembers how to chip, putt and manage the course.
[/quote]

Nobody swings in 2 dimensions. Kind of not possible.

[Fort Worth Pro]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392620374' post='8684791']
[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392615660' post='8684627']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392615172' post='8684605']


"The lumbar will laterally flex to the right..."---exactly what I'm saying. The less the thoracic flexion, the more you have to do this in order tote the shoulders to turn steeper or less flat. So more straight vs more flexed thoracic, the former would need more lateral flex to the right in backswing and to the left in downswing to get the shoulders to turn on the same inclined plane. Same thing happens in downswing and even for a greater degree and in other direction if you're the type of golfer that actively turns or laterally moves the hips in transition or downswing.
[/quote]

The lumbar doesn't flex to the right to turn the shoulders steeper. The lumbar flexes to the right as the pelvis drops down thanks to the abduction of the left hip and adduction of the right hip. If the lumbar didn't laterally flex to the right your upper body would tip WAY over.
[/quote]

IMO, it does have to do more with the inclined shoulder turn. We can see this doing two comparative drills. Go to your usual address, the turn your shoulders as level as possible to the ground (like a merry go round). You'll notice that the pelvic tilts less, and the left knee bends less.

In 2nd grill, turn your shoulders as steep as possible (like a Ferris wheel). You'll notice that you need to tilt the pelvis more and the left knee has to bend more.

So I think the ultimate or grandfather cause is the shoulder turn inclination.

I have lower back pain, and when I do the left shoulder down and parallel shoulder and pelvic tilts on top on DTL view, a more flexed thoracic (I don't force it, I just adopt my normal thoracic flex) removes or doesn't result to any pain on my lower back despite my use of hips actively in transition. If ever I have pains, it's the muscles, but never the nerves or discs. You can play along with hurt muscles, but never with hurt nerves or discs. Trying to straighten my back at address almost instantaneously cause pains sooner or later, the nerve and discs type.

Again, we have to consult doctors here as I'm not one. Just sharing my experiences and thoughts on this. Note also that my opinion comes from someone (me) who actively uses the hips in transition. Hogan and Nicklaus uses hips too. So maybe this is why.
[/quote]

Making an exaggerated incorrect swing proves nothing about how the body moves in a good swing. From what you described about your back I would be willing to bet when you "straighten" your spine you are exaggerating your butt being out and getting your pelvis too down thus actually arching your lower back more than is natural. See it all the time

[DJ Watts]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392640404' post='8685221']
[quote name='DJ Watts' timestamp='1392637927' post='8685129']
Henrick Stenson's swing isn't perfect, but this is the swing of the future - tall, erect posture with a relaxe, neutral spine, and he swings on a 3-dimensional plane more than the 2-dimensional aspect of the modern swing, even the older swing.

The swing is 3-dimensional with an inward arc to the top and a swing out through the ball.


[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZOJRhL_-J8[/media]

I was very critical of Stenson's swing a few years ago, but the work he's doing is Pete Cowen is amazing. I don't agree 100% with Pete's visual of the swing angle (and that's why Stenson struggles with driver), but if either Stenson or Cowen figures out the true angle, it's over. Stenson will win everything going away provided he remembers how to chip, putt and manage the course.
[/quote]

What "true angle"?
[/quote]

Hi gabh - I've just written something on [url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/971917-henrik-stenson-3d-golf-swing-of-the-future/"][b]Stenson here[/b][/url].

Best,

DJ Watts

[gabh]

[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392642518' post='8685327']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392620374' post='8684791']
[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392615660' post='8684627']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392615172' post='8684605']


"The lumbar will laterally flex to the right..."---exactly what I'm saying. The less the thoracic flexion, the more you have to do this in order tote the shoulders to turn steeper or less flat. So more straight vs more flexed thoracic, the former would need more lateral flex to the right in backswing and to the left in downswing to get the shoulders to turn on the same inclined plane. Same thing happens in downswing and even for a greater degree and in other direction if you're the type of golfer that actively turns or laterally moves the hips in transition or downswing.
[/quote]

The lumbar doesn't flex to the right to turn the shoulders steeper. The lumbar flexes to the right as the pelvis drops down thanks to the abduction of the left hip and adduction of the right hip. If the lumbar didn't laterally flex to the right your upper body would tip WAY over.
[/quote]

IMO, it does have to do more with the inclined shoulder turn. We can see this doing two comparative drills. Go to your usual address, the turn your shoulders as level as possible to the ground (like a merry go round). You'll notice that the pelvic tilts less, and the left knee bends less.

In 2nd grill, turn your shoulders as steep as possible (like a Ferris wheel). You'll notice that you need to tilt the pelvis more and the left knee has to bend more.

So I think the ultimate or grandfather cause is the shoulder turn inclination.

I have lower back pain, and when I do the left shoulder down and parallel shoulder and pelvic tilts on top on DTL view, a more flexed thoracic (I don't force it, I just adopt my normal thoracic flex) removes or doesn't result to any pain on my lower back despite my use of hips actively in transition. If ever I have pains, it's the muscles, but never the nerves or discs. You can play along with hurt muscles, but never with hurt nerves or discs. Trying to straighten my back at address almost instantaneously cause pains sooner or later, the nerve and discs type.

Again, we have to consult doctors here as I'm not one. Just sharing my experiences and thoughts on this. Note also that my opinion comes from someone (me) who actively uses the hips in transition. Hogan and Nicklaus uses hips too. So maybe this is why.
[/quote]

Making an exaggerated incorrect swing proves nothing about how the body moves in a good swing. From what you described about your back I would be willing to bet when you "straighten" your spine you are exaggerating your butt being out and getting your pelvis too down thus actually arching your lower back more than is natural. See it all the time
[/quote]

And what does? You can revise the 2nd drill and just make your usual left shoulder down move or rotate the shoulders on your usual plane. The effects are the same, just less obvious.

No, I meant straightened thoracic and cervical. If I do that, and I try to turn my shoulders on my own visual or feel of ball to shoulder plane, my lower back hurts.

Fwiw, I also don't agree on getting the thoracic and cervical more slumped than normal. What I advise is stand straight as how you usually stand, bend forward on hips, and let arms and shoulders relax and fall. Then get the eyes looking at the ball more directly (pupil still more or less in middle of eyes).

You disagree with this? Or you just disagree with straightening the upper spine as a cause of injury?

[Fort Worth Pro]

I agree completely with a neutral spine. Not overly straight. I would argue that the op's examples are just wrong. In those pictures, tiger and kuchar both gave rounded shoulders. Not slumped but a natural round.

[gabh]

[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392647061' post='8685703']
I agree completely with a neutral spine. Not overly straight. I would argue that the op's examples are just wrong. In those pictures, tiger and kuchar both gave rounded shoulders. Not slumped but a natural round.
[/quote]

Tiger and Kuchar has rounded shoulders, yes, but their thoracic is not flexed, or at least no enough flex, which if we relate to the OP's point, he has a point IMO.

[Fort Worth Pro]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392650176' post='8685995']
[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392647061' post='8685703']
I agree completely with a neutral spine. Not overly straight. I would argue that the op's examples are just wrong. In those pictures, tiger and kuchar both gave rounded shoulders. Not slumped but a natural round.
[/quote]

Tiger and Kuchar has rounded shoulders, yes, but their thoracic is not flexed, or at least no enough flex, which if we relate to the OP's point, he has a point IMO.
[/quote]

Sorry but that just is not correct. Any more would be out of neutral. This specific question was posed in my ng360 certification with Gary gray who is the worlds top biomechanics expert. The straightness of the thoracic is an illusion. It is following the natural curve when the mid back appears straight with slightly rounded shoulders. I am going to take the word of the worlds top expert in the field over a guy whose research consists of hitting balls and watching YouTube.

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392650176' post='8685995']
[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392647061' post='8685703']
I agree completely with a neutral spine. Not overly straight. I would argue that the op's examples are just wrong. In those pictures, tiger and kuchar both gave rounded shoulders. Not slumped but a natural round.
[/quote]

Tiger and Kuchar has rounded shoulders, yes, but their thoracic is not flexed, or at least no enough flex, which if we relate to the OP's point, he has a point IMO.
[/quote]

I don't understand why you think it's straight. Like at an anatomical level, to truly straighten ones spine, I'm not sure if that's obtainable. It's going to be very difficult. If it as completely straight the shirt would sit completely flat from their rear all the way to their neck. Not the case.

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1392506873' post='8676129']
Touching back on the squatting issue and somehow being superior for the old guys(which is completely incorrect), this is precisely the reason that a squatter retracts their shoulders when squatting. Again, not as structurally sound(and thus injury proof) when the shoulders are just sitting there, versus when they are retracted. Back is also less rounded when the shoulders are retracted.
[/quote]

You dont retract the shoulders when squatting. You actually apply an upward pressure with the hands to tuck the scapulas under otherwise you wont have enough thoracic extension and getting to parallel is hopeless.

Just retracting is the wrong way to teach it. Do you even lift bro?

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1392673067' post='8688473']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1392506873' post='8676129']
Touching back on the squatting issue and somehow being superior for the old guys(which is completely incorrect), this is precisely the reason that a squatter retracts their shoulders when squatting. Again, not as structurally sound(and thus injury proof) when the shoulders are just sitting there, versus when they are retracted. Back is also less rounded when the shoulders are retracted.
[/quote]

You dont retract the shoulders when squatting. You actually apply an upward pressure with the hands to tuck the scapulas under otherwise you wont have enough thoracic extension and getting to parallel is hopeless.

Just retracting is the wrong way to teach it. Do you even lift bro?
[/quote]

I mean I wasn't trying to teach, the basic pre-set for my "address" position squatting is drawing both of the scapula(shoulder blade, as I'm sure you know) back together.I'd call that retracting. I mean yeah you're right but I wasn't trying to teach him how to squat, just broadly talking about the position, vs you explaining how to get there.

[gabh]

[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392650823' post='8686061']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392650176' post='8685995']
[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392647061' post='8685703']
I agree completely with a neutral spine. Not overly straight. I would argue that the op's examples are just wrong. In those pictures, tiger and kuchar both gave rounded shoulders. Not slumped but a natural round.
[/quote]

Tiger and Kuchar has rounded shoulders, yes, but their thoracic is not flexed, or at least no enough flex, which if we relate to the OP's point, he has a point IMO.
[/quote]

Sorry but that just is not correct. Any more would be out of neutral. This specific question was posed in my ng360 certification with Gary gray who is the worlds top biomechanics expert. The straightness of the thoracic is an illusion. It is following the natural curve when the mid back appears straight with slightly rounded shoulders. I am going to take the word of the worlds top expert in the field over a guy whose research consists of hitting balls and watching YouTube.
[/quote]

I said, and I quote: "...but their thoracic is not flexed, or at least no enough flex,...". IMO, Tiger and Kuchar should copy the thoracic a and cervical bends of Snead, Hogan, Nicklaus, Nelson, Palmer, Player and Trevino. That's my opinion and of a few others, including players who have actually won. So get over it, relax, and accept the reality that there are opinions that doesn't necessarily says the others are wrong, even in the absence of certifications. But don't get me wrong, it's perfectly fine with me if you want to just rely on certifications. That's good. If you can win tournaments with it in the big tour, why not.

Having said that, I agree neutral or normal thoracic flexion of a normal person is not straight. I thought that's not the contentious issue. The contentious issue is whether or not we should give effort to straighten it more or relax it more. My opinion is the latter. And if we are to err, IMO opinion is to err on the relax or more flexion side.

Here's Mike Austin's video...can never find any fault in it, except the grip and use of TSP. Note that he uses a more flexed thoracic and cervical too. What do you think FWPro:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqpU2D-yrT8

[gabh]

FWPro, mechanics wise (let's disregard injury issues at this moment), what's your main beef with more thoracic and cervical flexion? I mean giving effort to flex them more at address?

[Fort Worth Pro]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392695971' post='8691513']
FWPro, mechanics wise (let's disregard injury issues at this moment), what's your main beef with more thoracic and cervical flexion? I mean giving effort to flex them more at address?
[/quote]

If they are slumped they cannot rotate as much without a compensation to become extended. Dj's own video he posted from a PT to try and prove his point said the same thing. If the thoracic gets overly flexed and rounded it cannot rotate properly

[gabh]

[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392697471' post='8691707']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392695971' post='8691513']
FWPro, mechanics wise (let's disregard injury issues at this moment), what's your main beef with more thoracic and cervical flexion? I mean giving effort to flex them more at address?
[/quote]

If they are slumped they cannot rotate as much without a compensation to become extended. Dj's own video he posted from a PT to try and prove his point said the same thing. If the thoracic gets overly flexed and rounded it cannot rotate properly
[/quote]

Yes, but the lumbar can...

[Fort Worth Pro]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392697901' post='8691771']
[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392697471' post='8691707']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392695971' post='8691513']
FWPro, mechanics wise (let's disregard injury issues at this moment), what's your main beef with more thoracic and cervical flexion? I mean giving effort to flex them more at address?
[/quote]

If they are slumped they cannot rotate as much without a compensation to become extended. Dj's own video he posted from a PT to try and prove his point said the same thing. If the thoracic gets overly flexed and rounded it cannot rotate properly
[/quote]

Yes, but the lumbar can...
[/quote]

Good grief. The lumbar is not designed to rotate. You ask the lumbar to rotate and you have a bad low back, end of story. Lumbar extends and flexes laterally. Hips and thoracic give you rotation.

[gabh]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392697901' post='8691771']
[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392697471' post='8691707']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392695971' post='8691513']
FWPro, mechanics wise (let's disregard injury issues at this moment), what's your main beef with more thoracic and cervical flexion? I mean giving effort to flex them more at address?
[/quote]

If they are slumped they cannot rotate as much without a compensation to become extended. Dj's own video he posted from a PT to try and prove his point said the same thing. If the thoracic gets overly flexed and rounded it cannot rotate properly
[/quote]

Yes, but the lumbar can...
[/quote]

And the cervical (near the thoracic).

As well as the shoulders scapulas or joints or whatever can also move up and down.

The main or middle thoracic actually doesn't have to twist very much.

[gabh]

[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392698104' post='8691799']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392697901' post='8691771']
[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392697471' post='8691707']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392695971' post='8691513']
FWPro, mechanics wise (let's disregard injury issues at this moment), what's your main beef with more thoracic and cervical flexion? I mean giving effort to flex them more at address?
[/quote]

If they are slumped they cannot rotate as much without a compensation to become extended. Dj's own video he posted from a PT to try and prove his point said the same thing. If the thoracic gets overly flexed and rounded it cannot rotate properly
[/quote]

Yes, but the lumbar can...
[/quote]

Good grief. The lumbar is not designed to rotate. You ask the lumbar to rotate and you have a bad low back, end of story. Lumbar extends and flexes laterally. Hips and thoracic give you rotation.
[/quote]

Geez, it can. You're talking about twisting it. You just move the right hip back and left hip forward and down, and you got a turned or rotated lumbar area.

[gabh]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392698239' post='8691817']
[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392698104' post='8691799']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392697901' post='8691771']
[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392697471' post='8691707']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392695971' post='8691513']
FWPro, mechanics wise (let's disregard injury issues at this moment), what's your main beef with more thoracic and cervical flexion? I mean giving effort to flex them more at address?
[/quote]

If they are slumped they cannot rotate as much without a compensation to become extended. Dj's own video he posted from a PT to try and prove his point said the same thing. If the thoracic gets overly flexed and rounded it cannot rotate properly
[/quote]

Yes, but the lumbar can...
[/quote]

Good grief. The lumbar is not designed to rotate. You ask the lumbar to rotate and you have a bad low back, end of story. Lumbar extends and flexes laterally. Hips and thoracic give you rotation.
[/quote]

Geez, it can. You're talking about twisting it. You just move the right hip back and left hip forward and down, and you got a turned or rotated lumbar area.
[/quote]

Just like what all those legends do, btw...so you think you know better than them?

[Fort Worth Pro]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392698239' post='8691817']
[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392698104' post='8691799']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392697901' post='8691771']
[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392697471' post='8691707']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392695971' post='8691513']
FWPro, mechanics wise (let's disregard injury issues at this moment), what's your main beef with more thoracic and cervical flexion? I mean giving effort to flex them more at address?
[/quote]

If they are slumped they cannot rotate as much without a compensation to become extended. Dj's own video he posted from a PT to try and prove his point said the same thing. If the thoracic gets overly flexed and rounded it cannot rotate properly
[/quote]

Yes, but the lumbar can...
[/quote]

Good grief. The lumbar is not designed to rotate. You ask the lumbar to rotate and you have a bad low back, end of story. Lumbar extends and flexes laterally. Hips and thoracic give you rotation.
[/quote]

Geez, it can. You're talking about twisting it. You just move the right hip back and left hip forward and down, and you got a turned or rotated lumbar area.
[/quote]

No...then you have hips that have moved. Not lumbar rotating

[Fort Worth Pro]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392698310' post='8691821']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392698239' post='8691817']
[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392698104' post='8691799']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392697901' post='8691771']
[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392697471' post='8691707']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392695971' post='8691513']
FWPro, mechanics wise (let's disregard injury issues at this moment), what's your main beef with more thoracic and cervical flexion? I mean giving effort to flex them more at address?
[/quote]

If they are slumped they cannot rotate as much without a compensation to become extended. Dj's own video he posted from a PT to try and prove his point said the same thing. If the thoracic gets overly flexed and rounded it cannot rotate properly
[/quote]

Yes, but the lumbar can...
[/quote]

Good grief. The lumbar is not designed to rotate. You ask the lumbar to rotate and you have a bad low back, end of story. Lumbar extends and flexes laterally. Hips and thoracic give you rotation.
[/quote]

Geez, it can. You're talking about twisting it. You just move the right hip back and left hip forward and down, and you got a turned or rotated lumbar area.
[/quote]

Just like what all those legends do, btw...so you think you know better than them?
[/quote]

Not saying I know better than them. Saying I know better than you what they are actually doing biomechanically

[pinhigh27]

Hahaha I love that argument. So Lebron could tell us the ideal way to shoot free throws is between your legs and that would be right for sure, because he's one of the best ever right? They clearly are all knowing . I mean the people that are paid to play sports also tend to be the most intelligent(not)

Edit : you did say near the thoracic for cervical so yeah that's acceptable in my opinion .


about lumbar, just twist your upper body . Not really any lumbar rotation.
Check out this study
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2223353/#!po=42.3077

To conclude, for 45 degrees of trunk rotation , there was an average of 1.5 degrees of lumbar rotation in each vertebrae... Not really noteworthy by any stretch of the imagination .

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392697471' post='8691707']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392695971' post='8691513']
FWPro, mechanics wise (let's disregard injury issues at this moment), what's your main beef with more thoracic and cervical flexion? I mean giving effort to flex them more at address?
[/quote]

If they are slumped they cannot rotate as much without a compensation to become extended. Dj's own video he posted from a PT to try and prove his point said the same thing. If the thoracic gets overly flexed and rounded it cannot rotate properly
[/quote]

Okay so youre saying the same thing I was but nicklaus and snead have shoulders forward which looks like thoracic flexion. And DJ was saying the same? lol. Im confused. I could have sworn he thought tiger and "modern players" are too extended over the ball.

So "modern players" dont roll the shoulders forward? You seem to have more knowledge than every participant here combined so...

[gabh]

FWPro, nice commercial. But you maybe correct. Maybe. But you need to explain the details because the difference in thoracic and cervical flexes between Hogan, Snead, Nicklaus, etc. vs Tiger and Kuchar are too substantial.

So, why do you think all of them flexed more their thoracic and cervical spines than Tiger and Kuchar? What's the biomechanics for that? And why not copy that?

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392695851' post='8691495']
Here's Mike Austin's video...can never find any fault in it, except the grip and use of TSP.
[/quote]

TSP will allow more distance. Calling that a fault=lack of knowledge imo. Get on a trackman and makes some swings. TSP vs elbow plane. Distance vs accuracy. If you can make the tsp swing easier then the accuracy debate is nil.

The grip issue is how he changes his lead wrist position early in the backswing which requires a compensation of the pivot in the transition/downswing. If his arms do anything early in the downswing then he is cooked.

[gabh]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1392709512' post='8692513']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392695851' post='8691495']
Here's Mike Austin's video...can never find any fault in it, except the grip and use of TSP.
[/quote]

TSP will allow more distance. Calling that a fault=lack of knowledge imo. Get on a trackman and makes some swings. TSP vs elbow plane. Distance vs accuracy. If you can make the tsp swing easier then the accuracy debate is nil.

The grip issue is how he changes his lead wrist position early in the backswing which requires a compensation of the pivot in the transition/downswing. If his arms do anything early in the downswing then he is cooked.
[/quote]

Calling lower plane a fault and having less distance is lack of knowledge, IMO. And tell that to Hogan.

The only thing that contributes to power when you use TSP is the longer radius due to the grip needed to make it work. But that can be fixed. It's like gaining distance in exchange for accuracy, when distance can be attained without sacrificing accuracy.

And that's not the grip issue I'm talking about, Sir.

Actually, Austin's grip is perfect for his higher plane. That's why I lumped the grip with the plane. But you wouldn't understand that.

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392710251' post='8692527']
Calling lower plane a fault and having less distance is lack of knowledge, IMO. And tell that to Hogan.
[/quote]

I never said lower plane was a fault. Its a sacrifice. Trackman would tell Hogan if he was still here that elbow plane is shorter. You just proved how much you know. lol

[gabh]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1392701189' post='8692089']
Hahaha I love that argument. So Lebron could tell us the ideal way to shoot free throws is between your legs and that would be right for sure, because he's one of the best ever right? They clearly are all knowing . I mean the people that are paid to play sports also tend to be the most intelligent(not)

Edit : you did say near the thoracic for cervical so yeah that's acceptable in my opinion .


about lumbar, just twist your upper body . Not really any lumbar rotation.
Check out this study
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2223353/#!po=42.3077

To conclude, for 45 degrees of trunk rotation , there was an average of 1.5 degrees of lumbar rotation in each vertebrae... Not really noteworthy by any stretch of the imagination .
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Yes that's my point to FWPro. And it's the hips that contributes to the turn of the lumbar area...look at Snead, Hogan and Nicklaus. This is very clear.