Snead, Hogan & Nicklaus vs Tiger, Rory Etc.

[gabh]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1392712173' post='8692559']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392710251' post='8692527']
Calling lower plane a fault and having less distance is lack of knowledge, IMO. And tell that to Hogan.
[/quote]

I never said lower plane was a fault. Its a sacrifice. Trackman would tell Hogan if he was still here that elbow plane is shorter. You just proved how much you know. lol
[/quote]

Elbow plane is shorter? Why? The left arm and club got shorter?

Mr. Many Know, could you explain why elbow plane causes less distance. Because what I know is it's just a shift from velocity power to rotational power, just change of engine and power source, so to speak. But go ahead, school me.

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392735824' post='8693517']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1392701189' post='8692089']
Hahaha I love that argument. So Lebron could tell us the ideal way to shoot free throws is between your legs and that would be right for sure, because he's one of the best ever right? They clearly are all knowing . I mean the people that are paid to play sports also tend to be the most intelligent(not)

Edit : you did say near the thoracic for cervical so yeah that's acceptable in my opinion .


about lumbar, just twist your upper body . Not really any lumbar rotation.
Check out this study
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2223353/#!po=42.3077

To conclude, for 45 degrees of trunk rotation , there was an average of 1.5 degrees of lumbar rotation in each vertebrae... Not really noteworthy by any stretch of the imagination .
[/quote]

Yes that's my point to FWPro. And it's the hips that contributes to the turn of the lumbar area...look at Snead, Hogan and Nicklaus. This is very clear.
[/quote]

Huh? He was saying that it doesn't turn, which that research shows. 1.5 degrees for 45 degrees of trunk rotation is extremely insignificant .

[gabh]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1392712173' post='8692559']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392710251' post='8692527']
Calling lower plane a fault and having less distance is lack of knowledge, IMO. And tell that to Hogan.
[/quote]

I never said lower plane was a fault. Its a sacrifice. Trackman would tell Hogan if he was still here that elbow plane is shorter. You just proved how much you know. lol
[/quote]

So, how's it that elbow plane is shorter? You really know, or you were just told?

Matt Kuchar ain't short, that's for sure. Hope track an won't tell him that, yeah?

Do you even know why, for people that needs it, TSP gives more distance?

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392777623' post='8698731']
[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1392712173' post='8692559']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392710251' post='8692527']
Calling lower plane a fault and having less distance is lack of knowledge, IMO. And tell that to Hogan.
[/quote]

I never said lower plane was a fault. Its a sacrifice. Trackman would tell Hogan if he was still here that elbow plane is shorter. You just proved how much you know. lol
[/quote]

So, how's it that elbow plane is shorter? You really know, or you were just told?

Matt Kuchar ain't short, that's for sure. Hope track an won't tell him that, yeah?

Do you even know why, for people that needs it, TSP gives more distance?
[/quote]

He's really short. Especially for a guy that is 6' 4" . No pun intended

[pinhigh27]

I mean if you hit it 280-285 consistently as a PGA tour pro being 6' 4" I would definitely call that short.

[gabh]

No. He hits it 300-ish when it matters or needed. Accurate too.

[Fort Worth Pro]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1392740950' post='8694141']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392735824' post='8693517']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1392701189' post='8692089']
Hahaha I love that argument. So Lebron could tell us the ideal way to shoot free throws is between your legs and that would be right for sure, because he's one of the best ever right? They clearly are all knowing . I mean the people that are paid to play sports also tend to be the most intelligent(not)

Edit : you did say near the thoracic for cervical so yeah that's acceptable in my opinion .


about lumbar, just twist your upper body . Not really any lumbar rotation.
Check out this study
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2223353/#!po=42.3077

To conclude, for 45 degrees of trunk rotation , there was an average of 1.5 degrees of lumbar rotation in each vertebrae... Not really noteworthy by any stretch of the imagination .
[/quote]

Yes that's my point to FWPro. And it's the hips that contributes to the turn of the lumbar area...look at Snead, Hogan and Nicklaus. This is very clear.
[/quote]

Huh? He was saying that it doesn't turn, which that research shows. 1.5 degrees for 45 degrees of trunk rotation is extremely insignificant .
[/quote]

Germans?

Forget it, he's rolling.

[Fort Worth Pro]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1392708912' post='8692499']
[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392697471' post='8691707']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392695971' post='8691513']
FWPro, mechanics wise (let's disregard injury issues at this moment), what's your main beef with more thoracic and cervical flexion? I mean giving effort to flex them more at address?
[/quote]

If they are slumped they cannot rotate as much without a compensation to become extended. Dj's own video he posted from a PT to try and prove his point said the same thing. If the thoracic gets overly flexed and rounded it cannot rotate properly
[/quote]

Okay so youre saying the same thing I was but nicklaus and snead have shoulders forward which looks like thoracic flexion. And DJ was saying the same? lol. Im confused. I could have sworn he thought tiger and "modern players" are too extended over the ball.

So "modern players" dont roll the shoulders forward? You seem to have more knowledge than every participant here combined so...
[/quote]

Ping10guy...not sure I truly understand your post. Can you clarify. Would be happy to offer my opinion if I knew what you were trying to ask. Not real sure if you were responding to me. I think you and I are in agreement on this stuff

[Fort Worth Pro]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392709218' post='8692505']
FWPro, nice commercial. But you maybe correct. Maybe. But you need to explain the details because the difference in thoracic and cervical flexes between Hogan, Snead, Nicklaus, etc. vs Tiger and Kuchar are too substantial.

So, why do you think all of them flexed more their thoracic and cervical spines than Tiger and Kuchar? What's the biomechanics for that? And why not copy that?
[/quote]

Hogan's isn't significant. Nicklaus and Snead may have just had more rounded shoulders in general. I do know it added an extra move to their backswings as they had to extend the thoracic during the backswing. You can see the extension in Nicklaus at the top of his backswing. Shoulders are no longer rounded.

[gabh]

[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392785228' post='8699725']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1392740950' post='8694141']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392735824' post='8693517']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1392701189' post='8692089']
Hahaha I love that argument. So Lebron could tell us the ideal way to shoot free throws is between your legs and that would be right for sure, because he's one of the best ever right? They clearly are all knowing . I mean the people that are paid to play sports also tend to be the most intelligent(not)

Edit : you did say near the thoracic for cervical so yeah that's acceptable in my opinion .


about lumbar, just twist your upper body . Not really any lumbar rotation.
Check out this study
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2223353/#!po=42.3077

To conclude, for 45 degrees of trunk rotation , there was an average of 1.5 degrees of lumbar rotation in each vertebrae... Not really noteworthy by any stretch of the imagination .
[/quote]

Yes that's my point to FWPro. And it's the hips that contributes to the turn of the lumbar area...look at Snead, Hogan and Nicklaus. This is very clear.
[/quote]

Huh? He was saying that it doesn't turn, which that research shows. 1.5 degrees for 45 degrees of trunk rotation is extremely insignificant .
[/quote]

Germans?

Forget it, he's rolling.
[/quote]

Oh c'mon, how can I be trolling (that what you meant?)?

To out this in perspective, what I mean is all you have to do to rotate or turn the lumbar area (together with hips, pelvis, stomach and waist) is thru right hip back and left hip forward and down IF you need to in response to what you said that "the lumbar CANNOT turn". So I said "yes it can", then you said good grief of you do you'll hurt yourself, then I said that's twisting, I'm talking about turning the hips as well in order to turn get the lumbar rotated.

[gabh]

[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392786217' post='8699821']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392709218' post='8692505']
FWPro, nice commercial. But you maybe correct. Maybe. But you need to explain the details because the difference in thoracic and cervical flexes between Hogan, Snead, Nicklaus, etc. vs Tiger and Kuchar are too substantial.

So, why do you think all of them flexed more their thoracic and cervical spines than Tiger and Kuchar? What's the biomechanics for that? And why not copy that?
[/quote]

Hogan's isn't significant. Nicklaus and Snead may have just had more rounded shoulders in general. I do know it added an extra move to their backswings as they had to extend the thoracic during the backswing. You can see the extension in Nicklaus at the top of his backswing. Shoulders are no longer rounded.
[/quote]

Yes agree on almost all you said, except that Snead and Nicklaus' extension going back is due to their longer and higher hands. Hogan isn't, and Hogan is doing something independently with his right shoulder, which Sam and Jack didn't IMO.

[gabh]

[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392785699' post='8699787']
[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1392708912' post='8692499']
[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392697471' post='8691707']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392695971' post='8691513']
FWPro, mechanics wise (let's disregard injury issues at this moment), what's your main beef with more thoracic and cervical flexion? I mean giving effort to flex them more at address?
[/quote]

If they are slumped they cannot rotate as much without a compensation to become extended. Dj's own video he posted from a PT to try and prove his point said the same thing. If the thoracic gets overly flexed and rounded it cannot rotate properly
[/quote]

Okay so youre saying the same thing I was but nicklaus and snead have shoulders forward which looks like thoracic flexion. And DJ was saying the same? lol. Im confused. I could have sworn he thought tiger and "modern players" are too extended over the ball.

So "modern players" dont roll the shoulders forward? You seem to have more knowledge than every participant here combined so...
[/quote]

Ping10guy...not sure I truly understand your post. Can you clarify. Would be happy to offer my opinion if I knew what you were trying to ask. Not real sure if you were responding to me. I think you and I are in agreement on this stuff
[/quote]

Hey Mr. Many Know, you didn't answer my queries re passing elbow plane in the other thread. Is the attack and retreat your favorite strategy as a lifestyle?

[Fort Worth Pro]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392788893' post='8699971']
[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392785228' post='8699725']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1392740950' post='8694141']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392735824' post='8693517']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1392701189' post='8692089']
Hahaha I love that argument. So Lebron could tell us the ideal way to shoot free throws is between your legs and that would be right for sure, because he's one of the best ever right? They clearly are all knowing . I mean the people that are paid to play sports also tend to be the most intelligent(not)

Edit : you did say near the thoracic for cervical so yeah that's acceptable in my opinion .


about lumbar, just twist your upper body . Not really any lumbar rotation.
Check out this study
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2223353/#!po=42.3077

To conclude, for 45 degrees of trunk rotation , there was an average of 1.5 degrees of lumbar rotation in each vertebrae... Not really noteworthy by any stretch of the imagination .
[/quote]

Yes that's my point to FWPro. And it's the hips that contributes to the turn of the lumbar area...look at Snead, Hogan and Nicklaus. This is very clear.
[/quote]

Huh? He was saying that it doesn't turn, which that research shows. 1.5 degrees for 45 degrees of trunk rotation is extremely insignificant .
[/quote]

Germans?

Forget it, he's rolling.
[/quote]

Oh c'mon, how can I be trolling (that what you meant?)?

To out this in perspective, what I mean is all you have to do to rotate or turn the lumbar area (together with hips, pelvis, stomach and waist) is thru right hip back and left hip forward and down IF you need to in response to what you said that "the lumbar CANNOT turn". So I said "yes it can", then you said good grief of you do you'll hurt yourself, then I said that's twisting, I'm talking about turning the hips as well in order to turn get the lumbar rotated.
[/quote]

I was quoting animal house.

In that case the lumbar would not have rotated. The lumbar is a section of the spine. For the lumbar to rotate that means their must be rotation in those joints. The hip girdle turning is not the same as the rotation in the lumbar.

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392784438' post='8699629']
No. He hits it 300-ish when it matters or needed. Accurate too.
[/quote]

So can everyone else . He's 150+ in driving distance while being that all for a reason. It's incredibly easy to generate speed with that height... So when we have someone that tall hitting it that short, there's a problem. A 6' 4" tour player should be able to crank it up a whole lot more than 300...

[gabh]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1392822912' post='8701405']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392784438' post='8699629']
No. He hits it 300-ish when it matters or needed. Accurate too.
[/quote]

So can everyone else . He's 150+ in driving distance while being that all for a reason. It's incredibly easy to generate speed with that height... So when we have someone that tall hitting it that short, there's a problem. A 6' 4" tour player should be able to crank it up a whole lot more than 300...
[/quote]

Still want an explanation why using elbow plane is shorter. Like Hogan who IMO perfected it.

[gabh]

[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392789223' post='8699993']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392788893' post='8699971']
[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392785228' post='8699725']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1392740950' post='8694141']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392735824' post='8693517']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1392701189' post='8692089']
Hahaha I love that argument. So Lebron could tell us the ideal way to shoot free throws is between your legs and that would be right for sure, because he's one of the best ever right? They clearly are all knowing . I mean the people that are paid to play sports also tend to be the most intelligent(not)

Edit : you did say near the thoracic for cervical so yeah that's acceptable in my opinion .


about lumbar, just twist your upper body . Not really any lumbar rotation.
Check out this study
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2223353/#!po=42.3077

To conclude, for 45 degrees of trunk rotation , there was an average of 1.5 degrees of lumbar rotation in each vertebrae... Not really noteworthy by any stretch of the imagination .
[/quote]

Yes that's my point to FWPro. And it's the hips that contributes to the turn of the lumbar area...look at Snead, Hogan and Nicklaus. This is very clear.
[/quote]

Huh? He was saying that it doesn't turn, which that research shows. 1.5 degrees for 45 degrees of trunk rotation is extremely insignificant .
[/quote]

Germans?

Forget it, he's rolling.
[/quote]

Oh c'mon, how can I be trolling (that what you meant?)?

To out this in perspective, what I mean is all you have to do to rotate or turn the lumbar area (together with hips, pelvis, stomach and waist) is thru right hip back and left hip forward and down IF you need to in response to what you said that "the lumbar CANNOT turn". So I said "yes it can", then you said good grief of you do you'll hurt yourself, then I said that's twisting, I'm talking about turning the hips as well in order to turn get the lumbar rotated.
[/quote]

I was quoting animal house.

In that case the lumbar would not have rotated. The lumbar is a section of the spine. For the lumbar to rotate that means their must be rotation in those joints. The hip girdle turning is not the same as the rotation in the lumbar.
[/quote]

Perspective is from static address position. So that's not what I meant. I thought this clear when I said you're referring to twisting the lumbar spine and I'm not.

Animal house? (Edit: Ok, I get it. Googled it.)

[gabh]

FWPro, you teach the right arm straight and push away move as well?

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392824872' post='8701609']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1392822912' post='8701405']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392784438' post='8699629']
No. He hits it 300-ish when it matters or needed. Accurate too.
[/quote]

So can everyone else . He's 150+ in driving distance while being that all for a reason. It's incredibly easy to generate speed with that height... So when we have someone that tall hitting it that short, there's a problem. A 6' 4" tour player should be able to crank it up a whole lot more than 300...
[/quote]

Still want an explanation why using elbow plane is shorter. Like Hogan who IMO perfected it.
[/quote]

That's not my argument, you said kuchar isn't short, which he definitely is.

[Fort Worth Pro]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392825047' post='8701629']


Perspective is from static address position. So that's not what I meant. I thought this clear when I said you're referring to twisting the lumbar spine and I'm not.

Animal house? (Edit: Ok, I get it. Googled it.)
[/quote]

I am sorry but I thought we were have a discussion about what the real joint motion was. In my opinion that's how you have to discuss in order to remove the ambiguity of terms. The lumbar does not rotate. The hips turn which moves the core. The actual joints aren't rotating.

[Fort Worth Pro]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392825639' post='8701707']
FWPro, you teach the right arm straight and push away move as well?
[/quote]

As well as whom? If I do I don't use those terms to describe it. Want to elaborate as to what it is because that is not my terminology for anything j teach.

[dlygrisse]

[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392785228' post='8699725']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1392740950' post='8694141']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392735824' post='8693517']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1392701189' post='8692089']
Hahaha I love that argument. So Lebron could tell us the ideal way to shoot free throws is between your legs and that would be right for sure, because he's one of the best ever right? They clearly are all knowing . I mean the people that are paid to play sports also tend to be the most intelligent(not)

Edit : you did say near the thoracic for cervical so yeah that's acceptable in my opinion .


about lumbar, just twist your upper body . Not really any lumbar rotation.
Check out this study
[url="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2223353/#!po=42.3077"]http://www.ncbi.nlm....53/#!po=42.3077[/url]

To conclude, for 45 degrees of trunk rotation , there was an average of 1.5 degrees of lumbar rotation in each vertebrae... Not really noteworthy by any stretch of the imagination .
[/quote]

Yes that's my point to FWPro. And it's the hips that contributes to the turn of the lumbar area...look at Snead, Hogan and Nicklaus. This is very clear.
[/quote]

Huh? He was saying that it doesn't turn, which that research shows. 1.5 degrees for 45 degrees of trunk rotation is extremely insignificant .
[/quote]

Germans?

Forget it, he's rolling.
[/quote]Did they bomb Pearl Harbor again?

[gabh]

[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392826580' post='8701841']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392825639' post='8701707']
FWPro, you teach the right arm straight and push away move as well?
[/quote]

As well as whom? If I do I don't use those terms to describe it. Want to elaborate as to what it is because that is not my terminology for anything j teach.
[/quote]

The ASI teachers. Right from the get go they want the right arm straight and pushing away the left arm.

Any idea why you're upper center is standing up thru impact? That intentional?

[Fort Worth Pro]

[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392828473' post='8702073']
[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392826580' post='8701841']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392825639' post='8701707']
FWPro, you teach the right arm straight and push away move as well?
[/quote]

As well as whom? If I do I don't use those terms to describe it. Want to elaborate as to what it is because that is not my terminology for anything j teach.
[/quote]

The ASI teachers. Right from the get go they want the right arm straight and pushing away the left arm.

Any idea why you're upper center is standing up thru impact? That intentional?
[/quote] gotta be tough for the right arm to be pushing the left from the get go. No that isn't what I teach. Upper center stands up because of where the pressure in my feet gets to and the ground forces cause that up otherwise I would stick it in the ground. Get the pressures fixed and that will disappear.

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392785699' post='8699787']
Ping10guy...not sure I truly understand your post. Can you clarify. Would be happy to offer my opinion if I knew what you were trying to ask. Not real sure if you were responding to me. I think you and I are in agreement on this stuff
[/quote]

Yeah, from your other post it seemed you were saying that nicklaus/snead, and the modern guys posted in the OP's first post both had neutral thoracic. Is that true?

How does shoulders rolled forward change the backswing? And why did they do it?

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1392826030' post='8701761']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392824872' post='8701609']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1392822912' post='8701405']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392784438' post='8699629']
No. He hits it 300-ish when it matters or needed. Accurate too.
[/quote]

So can everyone else . He's 150+ in driving distance while being that all for a reason. It's incredibly easy to generate speed with that height... So when we have someone that tall hitting it that short, there's a problem. A 6' 4" tour player should be able to crank it up a whole lot more than 300...
[/quote]

Still want an explanation why using elbow plane is shorter. Like Hogan who IMO perfected it.
[/quote]

That's not my argument, you said kuchar isn't short, which he definitely is.
[/quote]

Guys...use the search function. It was either iteachgolf, Lake, or Dana Dhalquist. I was told along with the rest of the internet that all things being equal on the same player TSP will allow for more distance vs elbow plane. When one of those guys says something like that then you kinda take their word for it. It was posted around 2009-2010 I believe.

I never said elbow plane is short in general. gabh called TSP on Mike Austin a fault. I stated that TSP allows for more distance. If Hogan played with todays equipment he would need to be steeper to hit the ball far especially if he tried to hit "power fades" as most of the internet thinks he did. Do some reading. Right now you just seem like some early EP Hogan fanboys. CP cuts in the modern game=not optimal with modern equipment in terms of distance.

[Fort Worth Pro]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1392854254' post='8704811']
[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1392785699' post='8699787']
Ping10guy...not sure I truly understand your post. Can you clarify. Would be happy to offer my opinion if I knew what you were trying to ask. Not real sure if you were responding to me. I think you and I are in agreement on this stuff
[/quote]

Yeah, from your other post it seemed you were saying that nicklaus/snead, and the modern guys posted in the OP's first post both had neutral thoracic. Is that true?

How does shoulders rolled forward change the backswing? And why did they do it?
[/quote]

I personally don't think Nicklaus and Snead were neutral in those videos. I thknk they are overflexed. Hogan I think is. Much less rounded. My point was that you can't say for sure because we don't know what their neutral posture is. A member at my club has a huge round in his back from years of shoulders pulling forward. He could never set up with what I would consider neutral but for him that's his posture.

As for why they would do it? No idea. Nicklaus and Snead both come out of that thoracic flexion in the backswing and are both fully extended. I posted some pictures ( I think in this thread). I would venture a guess that it is one reason they both swung the club more upright than most.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='DJ Watts' timestamp='1392233408' post='8653561']
One of the things I see most often in today's or the modern swing is something you never saw in the [i]"old"[/i] days.

If you want just one example of why the modern conventional golf swing is so hard on the lower back, you just have to compare stances of the greatest swingers against the best golfers today.

Sam Snead and Jack Nicklaus were the longest players on Tour in their particular day, or very close to the longest for a long time, and yet they didn't break down.

[attachment=2066269:classic address stances dtl.jpg]


Now, you look at the modern players, breaking down all the time, even when they're supposed to be fitter and stronger. And it isn't that they're swinging harder - who swung harder and hit it further than Nicklaus and Snead? Greg Norman as well - long hitter, who swung harder than Norman?

Here is the address position of the modern conventional golf swing below:

[attachment=2066267:modern address stances.jpg]

Rory looks as if he's trying to strangle a cobra.


I bet I don't even have to say what it is. But it's the leaning over and rigid-backed posture of the modern set-up.

People aren't meant to swing that way.

Peace,

DJ Watts
[/quote]
Many humans get some back trouble after age 40, golfer or not. If you do play golf and you try to bend forward from the hip sockets and keep a straight back you have just moved your center of gravity forward (rather than having it "centered" for lack of a better term) which definitely strains the back. Why are we always told to lift with our legs? It's so our center of gravity doesn't move too far forward and we strain the lower back.
Old timers simply took a comfortable athletic posture with their weight mostly over their legs. Ironically they were more efficient and accurate as a result because bending over disconnects the arms from the rest of the body and causes too much independent arm action.
Hogan is rumored to have said that he felt like he could squeeze a dime between his buttocks. Try that bending over. Your proctologist knows you can't!

[eightiron]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1392854916' post='8704893']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1392826030' post='8701761']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392824872' post='8701609']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1392822912' post='8701405']
[quote name='gabh' timestamp='1392784438' post='8699629']
No. He hits it 300-ish when it matters or needed. Accurate too.
[/quote]

So can everyone else . He's 150+ in driving distance while being that all for a reason. It's incredibly easy to generate speed with that height... So when we have someone that tall hitting it that short, there's a problem. A 6' 4" tour player should be able to crank it up a whole lot more than 300...
[/quote]

Still want an explanation why using elbow plane is shorter. Like Hogan who IMO perfected it.
[/quote]

That's not my argument, you said kuchar isn't short, which he definitely is.
[/quote]

Guys...use the search function. It was either iteachgolf, Lake, or Dana Dhalquist. I was told along with the rest of the internet that all things being equal on the same player TSP will allow for more distance vs elbow plane. When one of those guys says something like that then you kinda take their word for it. It was posted around 2009-2010 I believe.

I never said elbow plane is short in general. gabh called TSP on Mike Austin a fault. I stated that TSP allows for more distance. If Hogan played with todays equipment he would need to be steeper to hit the ball far especially if he tried to hit "power fades" as most of the internet thinks he did. Do some reading. Right now you just seem like some early EP Hogan fanboys. CP cuts in the modern game=not optimal with modern equipment in terms of distance.
[/quote]

2 things wrong , 1st is hogan wasn't a co model esp with longer clubs , and 2nd you can hit cp draws , guys like dahlquist can't even hit elbow plane and whine about cp being too crashy because they can't get on the elbow plane quick / early enough , you have need to go higher up the food chain

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1392873548' post='8707057']
2 things wrong , 1st is hogan wasn't a co model esp with longer clubs , and 2nd you can hit cp draws , guys like dahlquist can't even hit elbow plane and whine about cp being too crashy because they can't get on the elbow plane quick / early enough , you have need to go higher up the food chain
[/quote]
1 thing wrong. I never commented on hogans model. Just said hed hit it further on tsp vs an eep fade with modern stuff.

Higher up the food chain? Lol did dana steal your sweater?

[eightiron]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1392876336' post='8707195']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1392873548' post='8707057']
2 things wrong , 1st is hogan wasn't a co model esp with longer clubs , and 2nd you can hit cp draws , guys like dahlquist can't even hit elbow plane and whine about cp being too crashy because they can't get on the elbow plane quick / early enough , you have need to go higher up the food chain
[/quote]
1 thing wrong. I never commented on hogans model. Just said hed hit it further on tsp vs an eep fade with modern stuff.

Higher up the food chain? Lol did dana steal your sweater?
[/quote]

Says who? What scientific basis are you claiming this as fact? Hogan jacked his clubs to fade it with a draw swing . Tsp requires less #3 which is less roll , more roll of 3 on the elbow adds speed to the wrists uncocking ( that was from the bazanzella scientists)