Good and bad reasons to use tour equipment

[GolfWRX]

been looking around the message boards lately and it occurs to me there are 2 primary groups out there. One group loves tour equipment and the other hates tour stuff and the people who invest in tour stuff.

 

That's a broad stroke obviously as there are certainly people all over the spectrum.

 

It's a little disturbing to see hatred either way. Bizarre to me that there are people that bent out of shape over this topic.

 

 

Anyhow, I thought I would start this topic to see what kinds of responses it generates.

 

Good reasons to invest in tour equipment.

 

1) you enjoy buying it and trying it

2) you have the type of game that allows you to benifit from it

3) you want the best quality such as Miura made 300 forged

4) Your driver will be legal(all PGA tour drivers are tested by the manufacturer and must pass the .830 COR to actually get issued to the tour)

 

 

Bad reasons to buy tour equipment.

 

1) somenbody told you to or made you feel inferior because you play off the rack clubs

2) because everyone says it's better than production

3) becuase you have been told every tour driver goes 30 yards past every production driver

4)because you think it will drop you from a 15 handicap to a 0

 

 

Obviously I could list reasons alll day long in both catagories. There is no mysterious magic built into tour clubs. And the tour stuff is certainly not for everyone.

 

Also the chances of getting a tour club that fits you perfectly without any tweaks is like finding a needle in a haystack. It does happen every once in a while but you have to be very lucky or just buy way too much. I fall into the second catagory unfortunately.

 

Bottom line it buying tour suff is supposed to be fun. I've found some unbelievable clubs over the years that have helped me score better that I simply could not have purchased in any store. On the other hand I've tried probably 10 to 1 that really did not work for me. At least in the driver catagory.

 

Whatever you play do yourself a favor and get properly fit. The most awesome set of 300 Lehman grind won't be of any use if the shafts are wrong and the lie angles don't fit your swing. Likewise the most expensive graphite shaft is useless if it is not right for you. You get the point.

 

 

________________________________________________________________________________

 

 

I am adding "Tour Definitions" post to this to consolidate some of the stick posts...

 

Tour Definitions:

 

It seems there is a lot of confusion around the tour equipment market and there are some high profile sellers taking liberties with descriptions and in many cases making completely false statements.

 

So for the record we will try to clarify the terms and definitions.

 

PGA Tour issue- This would be a club that was ACTUALLY issued either through the OEM in house tour department or through the OEM PGA tour van. This is the top of the tour equipment hierarchy.

 

It is incorrect to claim a club is PGA tour issued if in fact it was never issued or released to a tour player. Bulk/surplus goods are never PGA tour issue.

 

Tour Issue- club issued to a player on any professional tour.

 

Tour Department-clubs issued through the OEM in house tour dept.

 

Prototype- the catch all phrase for tour equipment. there are desirable prototypes and undesireable ones. Too many to list so ask questions before you shell out big money on any proto.

 

Bulk/ Surplus tour goods- These clubs are NOT actual tour issued clubs but literally surplus tour goods out of a bin or clubs assembled by the OEM for mass dumping. These goods are typically old stock that is no longer needed by the OEM. In days gone by this surplus product would have simply been destroyed but now they are dumped in bulk on ebay, through retailers and the message board community.

 

Some good examples

Taylor Made 540 xd tp and 580 xd tp

Taylor Made 200 tour fairway woods

Taylor Made Rac oil can wedges

Taylor Made 510 TP

 

These clubs can be a very good value but there are things to watch out for.

 

The wood heads can vary in weight from very heavy to totally unweighted.

 

This has been an ongoing problem. The 200 tours that were bulk dumped were never properly weighted . It was a fiasco particularly when that information was not disclosed up front by the sellers.

 

There are 510 tps all over ebay being represented as tour department that are nothing more than surplus production heads with production serial numbers assembled in most cases with surplus tp graphics aldila NV shafts. Some sellers are disclosing that information but some are not unfortunately.

 

 

The tour equipment marketplace has changed. It is no longer a case of simply "know your seller". It is now FAR more important to "know your product".

 

We will continue to provide information to help perspective buyers get through the tour equipment maze.

 

Stay tuned for buyers guides.

[easyyy]

xxxxxx

[Metalhead]

Great topic!

 

I have been reading some interesting things on some other boards lately which caused be to pause and consider if I'm playing the right equiptment... first let me say I am a mad ho and just love to buy and try and see what fits and find out all the favors in the the golf world...

There have been many attempts to clarify the age old battle of tour vs retail... and honestly if it fits play it.. the best thing the PGA guys have going for them is there equiptment fits there swing and they have opportunies to keep trying s*** until it does... gernerally we don't have quite the same access to try.. say 20 drivers w/20 shafts etc...

One thing I did read which made a ton of sense, but made me ask if say a tour driver is my best option(outside of the fact of a sqare clubface and a decent head weight, was the fact that most Tour heads are generally below the .830 cor, to insure not dq's due to equiptment, but what is the cost yardarge wise to a 7 handicapper(not quite a tour swing just yet...) like myself trying to maxiumize any and all advantages not being at the upper regions of the cor value, if this is true?

Or perhaps a customized retail driver would be better... however there is no cor testing available for those either(that I know of).. so maybe these question are all in vain...

Josh

[Metalhead]

Well said JC! Thanks for your perspective!

 

****Nobody was banned before, during or after this thread*******

 

Josh

[Golfchicago]

JC,

 

Thanks for the unbiased and informative post. This needs to be a sticky. It is unfortunate that there is so much misleading information out there.

[Hifade]

Well said, JC.....whether people want to believe it or not, that's up to them but we know the truth, don't we. :( :lol: :beach:

[Golfchicago]

Chitown,

 

Thanks but I'm not saying my perspective is the gospel on tour drivers or anything else for that matter. I just have more experience than most since I have been around it for so long.

JC

1095[/snapback]

JC that is what I like about this site. You may have a report from a tour van guy and someone else may have a different report. i want to hear about both sides without it becoming a bloodbath. Im a big boy. I can figure it out for myself. For example, If I were a tour player, I would want to get the hottest core I could get without exceeding the limit. If the oem would not provide that for me then I would be switching companies. Also if I were caught with an illegal driver, I would be to blame, not the company. I would lose my rep not the company. Now if they wrongfully gave me an illegal driver, I would be done doing business with them as fast as I would be done doing business with them if they wouldnt give me the hottest legal faced driver. I could only assume that the "customer" or tour player would feel the same unless they are breaking the faces due to their swing speed, then they would find a core that is suitable to them. Why would a tour player or any player not want to play with the best equipment possible? Granted some people dont care or know some of the differences.

[easyyy]

I have been buying tour equipment for years now. Not as long as some of you guys but all for a while now.

 

I simply love it, and so does Joe Kwok. :lol:

Tweaking my bag and making small changes to is something I enjoy to do. My new campaign is larger driver heads and more forgiving irons.

 

I am playing retail drivers and retail irons now. Had them all fitted by a reputable pro and had Joe assemble them all. I think that is what is best for me right now.

 

Back when I was confident that Miura forged the Taylor Made Tour irons, I was and still am a big fan of those irons.

 

There is something about a driver or a set of clubs that has been manufactured for a Tour player. There is a feeling you get standing over a ball that is priceless. It has given me a little extra confidence thinking I have something special.

 

Same feeling I have knowing all the clubs set up by Joe. I KNOW they are right.

[joey3108]

I have been buying tour equipment for years now. Not as long as some of you guys but all for a while now.

 

I simply love it, and so does Joe Kwok.  :(

Tweaking my bag and making small changes to is something I enjoy to do. My new campaign is larger driver heads and more forgiving irons.

 

I am playing retail drivers and retail irons now. Had them all fitted by a reputable pro and had Joe assemble them all. I think that is what is best for me right now.

 

Back when I was confident that Miura forged the Taylor Made Tour irons, I was and still am a big fan of those irons.

 

There is something about a driver or a set of clubs that has been manufactured for a Tour player. There is a feeling you get standing over a ball that is priceless. It has given me a little extra confidence thinking I have something special.

 

Same feeling I have knowing all the clubs set up by Joe. I KNOW they are right.

1114[/snapback]

MOI :lol:

 

If i bought it at the right timing, after trying them and don't like it or can't hit them...at least it retain the resale value better than the retail. So i wouldn't loose to much $$$$ when i sold them. I might even make $$$$ if the timing is right.

 

For example T60 tour issue 2-3 months ago worth nothing, but look at it now. :beach:

 

To me tour or retail is just the same as long as the spec fit w/ my swing profile.

 

Best of all, I love to find a way tweaking it. :help:

 

joe :rtfm:

[Crazycal]

I hate to admit this but TOUR eqipment has never really done much for my game ....... unless you count when I bought a tour club with a good upgrade shaft in her then it made a difference but honestly speaking ive had good sucess with buying retail heads and putting a decent shaft in them .......

 

:lol: Cmc :(

[travoakley]

I hate to admit this but TOUR eqipment has never really done much for my game ....... unless you count when I bought a tour club with a good upgrade shaft in her then it made a difference but honestly speaking ive had good sucess with buying  retail heads  and putting a decent shaft in them  .......

 

:lol: Cmc :(

1264[/snapback]

Great point crazy. I have played some of my best golf with all retail. I have always played great with tour gear. Just means when your swinging well, everything is easy to hit. Shafts I think is what has helped me more than anything. At least confidence wise. It is a great hobby and I will probably never stop hoing.

[lohrm1]

I've had all tour stuff and now my bag's mostly retail. (Custom and tweaked, but still retail.) It doesn't seem to matter. I suck with both! :lol:

[joey3108]

I've had all tour stuff and now my bag's mostly retail. (Custom and tweaked, but still retail.) It doesn't seem to matter. I suck with both! :(

1440[/snapback]

You've probably have more fun tweaking it now, isn't it? :lol:

 

Joe :beach:

[Golfchicago]

You've probably have more fun tweaking it now, isn't it? :lol:

 

Joe :(

1444[/snapback]

It is far more important to tweak the club to YOUR specs than play tour clubs. Many higher handicappers I know need offset clubs. Tour clubs would actually hurt them.

[monkey]

 

Well said. I wish i would have found this forum sooner. I have been looking for a tour issued R510 TP for quite some. I'm left handed so it's awfully difficult to find what i want. Sometimes I just take a chance and get something from ebay. I'm not saying I want tour issued equipment

because I think I'm good (13 handicap) or that it will improve my game.

I've had some bad luck with retail woods. I have caved the face in on three different clubs. It is my understanding that the tour issued stuff is of better quality. Hope that is true. I recently won an auction for an R510 TP with a prototype Aldila NV shaft. I may have to get the shaft replaced but oh well. The seller claims to receive these clubs for the tour dept. at Taylormade. He is a power seller and has a great reputation. How would I know if this club really came from the tour dept. or not???

 

Great topic!

[golfcraze]

It is far more important to tweak the club to YOUR specs than play tour clubs. Manyu higher handicappers I know need offset clubs. Tour clubs would actually hurt them.

1470[/snapback]

 

 

I agree, can't hit anything retail( irons) since I tend to miss them left due to the offset. Even retail blades like the MP33,37,33 has a bit more offset than what i'm use to. I guess its really all up 2 the person buying/trying tour equipment. Even more reason why i like the 300 box toes, not because they are tour, but because they fit me.

 

As for the driver... The very first r510 TP tour I GOT last year when I was at the Buick Invitational, Torrey Pines had the TEST paperwork and the cor. was .828. Thats as close to limit if you ask me. Only reason why i got rid of it was the face angle was 5 deg. open.

Damn Vijay.. :lol: As for the 580 xd tp, first one i got... .827 cor.

 

my2cents

[dorfblee]

For me, my interest in Tour equipment has been less of a collector or wanting to try what the pro's use. It was search for a driver with a square or slightly open face. There are many more options nowadays.

 

As for Tour equipment, most of it is pretty sweet, but I'm happy with my ots Mizuno MP 33's, etc.

[gjones77]

I know that I haven't been around as most of you, but I do work with a guy who is a golf pro and as sponsored by Titleist, and I asked him some questions on this subject, here was his basic run down.

 

Tour equipment on average is really not much if not really different from retail. Now, some of the faces on the drivers and fairway woods are more square at address, but other than that they really aren't that different other than prototype equipment that hasn't been put on the market.

 

Now as for tour equipment that was put into play by an actual player, that's a whole new ball game, that's equipment that was customized for that player's preferences, swing, and various other factors, meaning that it won't work for 99% of us.

 

He actually gave me the run down on what happens at the Titleist Performance Institute, basically everything they get for clubs there are the same as retail, they're just adjusted and different shafts are put in based on the tests that are run. They're not really all that different.

 

Now I can't say the same for other OEM's, some times higher named players (Tiger, Phil, Ernie, etc) will get prototypes and other clubs that you may not see on the market for awhile if ever.

 

Now I'm not saying you're an idiot for buying tour gear, if that's what you like go for it, and honestly, I wouldn't turn down a Scotty from the tour van either ;)

 

I just don't really see all the fuss about it I guess.

 

Play what makes you happy, if throwing down $1000 for a tour model driver makes you feel more confident about your game, then yes, tour will make your game better, but it wasn't the club, it was always you :busted_cop:

[easyyy]

It isn’t the arrow it is the Indian. I just preference a review of a recent purchase (x-tours). I was saying that I have been scoring better than ever this year, and I said it during a review of the x-tours. It could lead the reader to think it was X-tour related. I don’t believe that. It is 90% if not more as a result of the practice and discipline of my game more than equipment.

 

That being said, I LOVE to tinker with my equipment. I love to work with it and think that I might be getting a tad bit of an advantage at times using the right shaft and or the special ????? That comes with some of the equipment we talk about.

 

Special forgings

Special grinds

Unique heads with open faces for the hooker that would love to swing harder

etc...

 

Perception that you have something that COULD be special could give a player some perceived confidence. Confidence? I will take as much as I can get. Where do I sign up?

 

Richard

[dolleris]

It isn’t the arrow it is the Indian. I just preference a review of a recent purchase (x-tours). I was saying that I have been scoring better than ever this year, and I said it during a review of the x-tours. It could lead the reader to think it was X-tour related. I don’t believe that. It is 90% if not more as a result of the practice and discipline of my game more than equipment.

 

That being said, I LOVE to tinker with my equipment. I love to work with it and think that I might be getting a tad bit of an advantage at times using the right shaft and or the special ????? That comes with some of the equipment we talk about.

 

Special forgings

Special grinds

Unique heads with open faces for the hooker that would love to swing harder

etc...

 

Perception that you have something that COULD be special could give a player some perceived confidence. Confidence? I will take as much as I can get. Where do I sign up?

 

Richard

6656[/snapback]

 

Good post ;)

I've come to similar conclusions having 'tasted' / tested and spend a few bucks on tourgear the last couple of years.

I have finished the 'process' now - I think :busted_cop: - settling finally on retail drivers and woods, which gives me more spin, carry and more fairways hit.

(I AM a golfing legend in my own lunchbreaks - but NOT on the course :vava: )

 

The exotic shafts will remain my ho'ing grounds - retail or tour :D

 

Tour irons have this 'special' bouquet to them and it is nice to know that they are weighted evenly in increments. I'll play tourirons in the future for sure.

 

Tourwedges with special grooves? I have both a retail RAC and a boxgrooved in the bag and honestly I spin them equally as good. I think todays top retail wedges provide plenty of groove - it is all down to the proper technique used in the shot.

 

Again - nice to follow a calm and sensible angle to this subject!

Soeren

[J_Tizzle]

i also have tried the tour clubs, and the latest one i've purchased was a TM r510 TP and the biggest difference i've seen is that it is quite a bit shorter than my current G2 driver. But the one reason i've decided to keep the 510 is the simple fact that it has an obviously open club face so when the hooks come around i always have the backup that stops the lefts. So my 2cents on the tour equipment is that they are made for what the pros want and we cannot get them built that way for us (outside of buying on ebay) if VJ doesn't want to hit it left then he as every driver built with a wide open face and we don't have that luxury.

 

Its also good to make fun of your friends because you have a tour issue driver and they don't, lol. :busted_cop:

[joey3108]

It isn’t the arrow it is the Indian.

Richard

6656[/snapback]

 

Yea! But it makes the Indian better if the arrow are straight. :vava:

[Extreme Firepower]

Thanks Champ and Joey,

 

a lot of guys getting stung due to lack of knowledge and unscrupulous sellers.

 

I myself got stung once buying a fairway wood from Ebay, I thought I was buying a retail wood but unknowingly got a tour issue head with a prototype shaft , I was chuffed to bits as it was new and I got the thing for next to nothing, it was a old skool club so the chances of it being tour and new were slim, or so I thought.

 

Bottom line was the shaft was dead on this thing, I hit the ball a looong way but this baby was a daisy cutter, it's not that often something like that happens.

 

Maybe worth a lot of money or collectable but certainly not useable.

 

There was a lesson to be learned there, I haven't figured out what it was yet :vava:

[Debit]

Yea! But it makes the Indian better if the arrow are straight.

15097[/snapback]

 

Now that's funny -- and strangely profound. I don't hate them, but envy is real apparent, when I hear/see folk continually dropping big bucks in an attempt to buy a game. I've lost count of the number of sets of irons this one guy has purchased -- this year! He jumps on every "trend" or bit of hype that comes down the road, but is totally clueless about the physics and deaf/blind to any contrary explanation. As for me, as long my pro hasn't commented on the fit of my clubs -- I'm cool with my ancient frequency-matched, steel-shafted beauties.

[slicefixer]

I know that I haven't been around as most of you, but I do work with a guy who is a golf pro and as sponsored by Titleist, and I asked him some questions on this subject, here was his basic run down.

 

Tour equipment on average is really not much if not really different from retail. Now, some of the faces on the drivers and fairway woods are more square at address, but other than that they really aren't that different other than prototype equipment that hasn't been put on the market.

 

Now as for tour equipment that was put into play by an actual player, that's a whole new ball game, that's equipment that was customized for that player's preferences, swing, and various other factors, meaning that it won't work for 99% of us.

 

He actually gave me the run down on what happens at the Titleist Performance Institute, basically everything they get for clubs there are the same as retail, they're just adjusted and different shafts are put in based on the tests that are run. They're not really all that different.

 

Now I can't say the same for other OEM's, some times higher named players (Tiger, Phil, Ernie, etc) will get prototypes and other clubs that you may not see on the market for awhile if ever.

 

Now I'm not saying you're an idiot for buying tour gear, if that's what you like go for it, and honestly, I wouldn't turn down a Scotty from the tour van either  (cool)

 

I just don't really see all the fuss about it I guess.

 

Play what makes you happy, if throwing down $1000 for a tour model driver makes you feel more confident about your game, then yes, tour will make your game better, but it wasn't the club, it was always you  :vava:

6649[/snapback]

 

 

I hate to dispute your buddy, but, I'm also a golf professional AND a former tour player and your buddy could NOT be more wrong. I've personally visited 3 different tour dept.s for fitting, etc. and the equipment I've seen/owned is VERY different from off the shelf/retail. For example, the heads that are used are the cream.....very tight tolerances......many times the shape of the head (both in woods and irons) is completely different.......same for the amount of offset or the lack thereof......I have a set of Nike blades that I was given last October in Ft. Worth.....the shafts are proto-type steel from True Temper that at that time were ONLY tour issued......and the heads are quite different than off the shelf Nike blades......Same for the Hogan Tour Dept. when it was in Ft. Worth or Richmond......Same for Taylor Made......IF a club is TRULY from the tour dept. of basically any major manufacture it will be different than off the rack........I've yet to pound any lead powder out of a tour issued iron......;)

[golf9596]

I've had all tour stuff and now my bag's mostly retail. (Custom and tweaked, but still retail.) It doesn't seem to matter. I suck with both! ;)

1440[/snapback]

Working in the business, your tour equipment is the same as retail, except it has been fitted for a specific player, hence tour equipment (cool) If you are a good fitter and know how to tweak equipment( like Joe K) then you can have tour equipment. PLEASE REMEMBER THAT THE EQUIPMENT WE USE NEEDS TO BE FITTED TO EACH PLAYER TO ALLOW THEM TO PLAY THEIR BEST. If it says tour then it was fitted for another player not YOU. :vava:

[klpra]

Hi. I'm new to this forum but this is the most sensible discussion I've seen on this subject. Other forums scratch and claw at each other over Tour vs Retail. One forum in particular (most here know which forum I'm talking about) promotes Tour over Retail which is probably due to financial gain. As for my opinion, I believe most buy Tour Issue because of the hype and ego associated with tour equipment. I would bet most don't play better with it and some play even worse. The Retail equipment is so good these days for all levels of players. Fitting is the key. I'm not saying Tour Issue isn't good...I just don't think its not the right equipment for the vast majority of golfers. Just my 2 cents worth and by the way. I LOVE this Forum!

[easyyy]

Hi. I'm new to this forum but this is the most sensible discussion I've seen on this subject. Other forums scratch and claw at each other over Tour vs Retail.  One forum in particular (most here know which forum I'm talking about) promotes Tour over Retail which is probably due to financial gain. As for my opinion, I believe most buy Tour Issue because of the hype and ego associated with tour equipment. I would bet most don't play better with it and some play even worse. The Retail equipment is so good these days for all levels of players. Fitting is the key. I'm not saying Tour Issue isn't good...I just don't think its not the right equipment for the vast majority of golfers. Just my 2 cents worth and by the way. I LOVE this Forum!

26375[/snapback]

 

I love the fact you love this forum. I played mostly retail till about 2 weeks ago. Then I found a set of satin irons I thought had a rare factor and they look sweet. Retail driver, retail wedge and putter for me and it really doesnt matter to much either. It isnt tour vs retail for me. I doubt there is a lick of differene between the tour and retail nike pro combos. As a matter of fact I have been told there isnt anything different. We will see. I have another set coming that is said to have less offset. Same head, forging, and general design. Fitting is the key. I agree. I am a freak though, and I get my thrills from getting something rare and hard to find with equipment. Not your everyday off the shelf stuff. I enjoy it. I enjoy playing golf with that stuff.

 

Hell, I just love golf and this is another way for me to mess around with it.

 

Somebody asked me what the difference was between an R5 TP from a store and a tour van R5, one of the ones with a Txxxxx serial number.  I answered that if the Txxxxx head had been set up for a tour player, it likely would have been bent, and maybe some hot melt inserted for weighting.

 

He then asked what else is different.  I said that I didn't know.  Does anybody know for sure?

35300[/snapback]

 

I have allways thought reguardless of what many have said the Taylor Made TP lines are equal to Tour issue. I have hit them both and could tell you they were the same to me. Sure there will be a club that has been modified for a pro (bent, foamed, weighted, etc) but in general I say they are the same heads for the TP lines. IMHO

[longball300]

It isn’t the arrow it is the Indian.

Richard

6656[/snapback]

 

Yea! But it makes the Indian better if the arrow are straight. :clapping:

15097[/snapback]

 

 

Well all golfers aspire to play as good as the PGA tour players, so using the Tour equipment makes us feel closer, and you know golf is 80% mental so if you feel you can play well with an R7 TP or Tour scotty cameron so be it. I like tour stuff as well, but I restrict it to drivers and fairway metals and putters.

[baimo]

It does not matter if it is tour or not, just as long as it is Certified. :clapping: