Pace of Play - The Courses Reply

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We have spent the last week addressing what may be the number one issue in golf today - the insane amount of time required to play a round of golf. It is all too common to spend five or six hours on a course. That's just way too long. Is it feasible however to have a four-hour round (or even less)? Do pace-of-play policies work and if so, how are they enforced? To answer these questions we thought we would ask the people who have to deal with this on a daily basis.

 

 

Today's quick interview features two guests: Robert Clark, Director of Golf Operations for The Architects Golf Club located in Lopatcong, NJ and Tim Kuebelbeck, Director of Golf for the Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board who oversees seven courses located throughout the city of Minneapolis, MN.

 

 

TST: If you have a pace of play policy, what is it?

 

 

Robert: Architects does have a sign with regards to the pace of play. We suggest a four-hour round. I however do not think that is realistic, I believe a 4½ hour round is much more achievable.

 

 

Tim: Our Pace of Play Policy is two-fold. First, our starters let each group know that time par expectation is 4:25. From there, our rangers monitor the groups and are trained not so much to look for gaps, but time pars.

 

 

TST: How do you enforce your pace of play policy?

Robert: Like most courses we enforce pace of play with a staff of rangers. During our peak season we attempt to have both a front-nine and a back-nine ranger. It is very important for these rangers to be visible. If our golfers see the rangers several times during a round, typically fewer problems arise. Perception is everything.

 

 

Tim: Each group has an expectation based on the hole they are playing as to what time in their round they should be at to finish at our goal of 4 hours and 25 minutes. If they are behind, they are warned. After they are warned, the group is moved into position based on time par. If they continue to fall behind, the group is removed from the golf course.

 

 

TST: How do you see pace of play at your course and nationwide: big problem, non-issue…?

 

 

Robert: In my opinion pace of play is directly related to the number of players on the golf course. Pace of play at the Architects is more of an issue on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday simply because there are more people playing our golf course.

 

 

Tim: It's a problem, but not one that can't be managed. All course operators have days where nothing is going to work. The course is loaded and playing slow. How can you move 25 groups all at once? Simply impossible.

 

 

The key is to enforce and monitor the early groups so the day and course can be managed. If you have a full tee sheet and you lose the pace of play in the morning, good luck with the rest of the day. Effective use of Starter Times and preparing a tee sheet in advance are also management tools that when used effectively can help alleviate some problems.

 

 

TST: In a perfect world, what solutions would you have for curing the problem? What could golfers do to speed up and what could courses do to help them play more quickly?

 

 

Robert: The golfer can begin by playing from the appropriate tee box. Too many times we see a 25 handicapper playing the back tees and that just does not work. Also, playing smart ready golf, meaning limit yourself to one waggle and practice swing, if a course is cart path only, bring a couple of clubs when hitting your next shot instead of having to go back to your cart to get another.

 

 

The golf course superintendent plays a huge roll in effecting pace of play, when the rough in left too long, green speeds running at a 10-11, and keeping carts on the paths instead of letting them scatter all are contributing factors in affecting the pace of play. In my opinion the golf course superintendent plays the largest roll in whether we have a four-hour or a five-hour round of golf.

 

 

Tim: Golf is a game. It should be enjoyed. If that means you hit four shots and are still 200 yards from the green, pick up your ball and go to the putting surface and finish out the hole. Players with an expectation that the hole needs to be played from tee to green is simply unnecessary.

 

 

How much enjoyment can you have on the golf course when taking a 12 on golf holes? Enjoy the game. Enjoy the company. Enjoy nature. But, enjoy the rest of your life as well and get off the golf course in 4 hours and 25 minutes.

 

 

Originally Published at http://thesandtrap.com/columns/throwing_da...e_courses_reply.

[archer]

And here you see one of the sources of the problem in a nutshell: golf course owners and operators actually believe that a time in excess of 4 hours is an acceptable pace of play.

 

Here's one golfer who not only doesn't agree with the assessment of Mr. Clark and Mr. Keulbelbeck, but who will never set foot on a course on which the Director of Golf establishes such a ludicrous pace of play. In case no golfer has ever stood up and clued in that pair, let me take a stab at it: a 4 hour 25 minute plus pace is an unpleasant experience, not a goal worthy of the consideration of a serious golfer.

[Stevers]

And here you see one of the sources of the problem in a nutshell: golf course owners and operators actually believe that a time in excess of 4 hours is an acceptable pace of play.

 

Here's one golfer who not only doesn't agree with the assessment of Mr. Clark and Mr. Keulbelbeck, but who will never set foot on a course on which the Director of Golf establishes such a ludicrous pace of play. In case no golfer has ever stood up and clued in that pair, let me take a stab at it: a 4 hour 25 minute plus pace is an unpleasant experience, not a goal worthy of the consideration of a serious golfer.

 

I guess you can scratch off all the Pebble Beach area courses from your list then... 4 hours and 20 minutes is their goal...

[archer]

Excellent guess. At four hours and twenty minutes, I'd be waiting on every tee shot, and every approach shot, all after having paid the $800 or so it would cost me to tee it up at PB. (Green fees plus the required hotel stay.)

 

Sorry, not interested.

[titleistpro2]

still don't know what all the fuss is about. what's the difference between a four hour round and a five hour round? 60 lousy minutes. chill out and enjoy being outdoors. I've got a full time job, a wife, a daughter, a yard to mow and everything else...and a five hour round doesn't bother me. I'd rather play well and make sure I get the most out of my round than look at my watch every 6 minutes to see what the pace of play is.

[Big Ben]

Five hour rounds suck! I'm a low handicaper and it kills my game. I've noticed a major erosion in ethics and understanding of the game which includes pace of play, playing through etc. over the past 5 to 10 years. The games popularity has exploded and thats great I guess but it really needs to be looked into very closely because it's getting way out of hand. Hitting ten shots in a row while the group in front of you is long gone is unacceptable and needs to stop!

[bassman1308]

Before i retired, i busted my hump to get my work done so i could get to the golf course, wind down, enjoy myself PLUS play good. I don't want a marshall, course owner, or high speed golfer pushing me to speed up so they can get more people on the course or play 18 in record time. In fact it p-sses me of if someone even mentions " you play too slow". I play to a 6 hc but some of my group are 15+ hc's. We play a 7 max on any one hole, play ready golf and usually can finish 18 in under 4 1/2 hrs. On days when the weather is very nice, it would not bother me to play a 5 hr round. Like TITLEPRO, i enjoy being outdoors with my friends. Maybe people who are fast paced should take up jogging. lol. I don't mean to sound grumpy, but good god, relax, slow down and smell the roses. I bet it would help your game.

[archer]

I respect the fact that you enjoy taking your time on the golf course, but there is something you are not considering. If your normal foursome should ever find yourselves behind my normal foursome playing at our customary 3 1/2 hour pace, you have the option to keep up or play at your pace. If however, the situation were reversed and we found ourselves behind your group, we would NOT have an option; you would dictate our pace and that is fundamentally unfair.

 

Playing at your glacial pace would not help my game, and I would respectfully submit that walking up to your ball, quickly assessing the yardage, selecting a club, hitting your shot without 5 or 6 practice swings, and repeating the process throughout the day would help your game.

 

Finally sir, with all due respect, I hope I never find myself behind you waiting on every single shot.

[titleistpro2]

golf is a game of adjustments. sometimes you can play fast, sometimes you have to play slow. sometimes you have a good lie, sometimes you have a bad lie. if you can't make an adjustment and still enjoy yourself and play well, you shouldn't play. 5 hour rounds are a part of golf more often than not, especially if you play tournament golf, so you might as well adjust and enjoy it or you need to build your own course where only you can play...

[KNC47]

The course is responsible for dictating pace of play. No group shall supercede another. If you are being delayed (based upon the pace of play established by the course and not the individuals) you have the right to call the clubhouse (don't get off on a cell phone tangent) or flag down a marshall. If you don't, then you have no right to complain.

[iJim]

Listen, if you play public golf, expect it to be slow.

 

If you play privately, expect slow play to be remedied by the pro of the club.

[onkelbenz]

Before i retired, i busted my hump to get my work done so i could get to the golf course, wind down, enjoy myself PLUS play good. I don't want a marshall, course owner, or high speed golfer pushing me to speed up so they can get more people on the course or play 18 in record time. In fact it p-sses me of if someone even mentions " you play too slow". I play to a 6 hc but some of my group are 15+ hc's. We play a 7 max on any one hole, play ready golf and usually can finish 18 in under 4 1/2 hrs. On days when the weather is very nice, it would not bother me to play a 5 hr round. Like TITLEPRO, i enjoy being outdoors with my friends. Maybe people who are fast paced should take up jogging. lol. I don't mean to sound grumpy, but good god, relax, slow down and smell the roses. I bet it would help your game.

 

Have you never been p-ssed for hurrying with your work to squeeze in 9 or even 18 holes before darkness falls and then realize you're falling 3 holes short of that because the freaking group in front of you is making you wait on every single shot? That's not a way to enjoy the game either.

 

One of the main reasons for slow play is (wrong) usage of carts. Driving forth and back with it, walking forth and back to it eats up a lot of time. Walk the round, and enjoy the sport involved (and burn some fat on the way)! That's how golf is meant to be in my eyes!

 

OB

[bassman1308]

Courtesy is indeed the key word. Our group ALWAYS lets faster individuals play through. Why is it so hard to understand that a foursome of " old geezers" that takes over 350 strokes per 18 holes has a hard time playing as fast as a foursome that takes 300 strokes. As i said earlier , i'm a 6 HC, but my friends aren't. i'm 62 and get stiff during long waits between shots. I'm sure this does effect my game. I wish my friends played better and faster. BUT THEY DON"t and never will. So i've come to realize that if i want to enjoy this sport and the time i have left on this earth, i need to RELAX and not worry about things i can not change. I guess i'm rather sensitive about this subject as we have a couble guys at our course who are outspoken about what they consider slow play and have directed this at my friends. Because of this, I use to have "hurry up " thoughts go through my head while lining up shots, but since i've come to realize they're jerks, I take my time on shots that are inportant to me. 4 1/2 hours is not to long for 18 holes of golf. I do think it's the courses responsiblity to enlighten new golfers as to how to be courteous on the course.

[Mapleleaf14]

I agree with Big Ben to a degree. It seems like alot of people don't know the right thing to do on a golf course. The amount of ball marks not fixed on greens and bunkers not raked boggles my mind! It takes a couple of seconds to fix a mark and rake a bunker. I've seen people walk through a bunker just to get to the green!

 

Unfortunately, most public courses are after as much money as they can get so I feel they overbook way too much. 8 carts lined up at the first tee, a group in the fairway, and a group on the green is too much IMO.

 

It's also bad when the 2 carts in a foursome go to each player's ball and everybody waits on each player's shot before going on to their own.

 

Plus, there are some golfers out there who aren't a very good judge at their own game. Just last week me and a couple of buddies were waiting on the first tee (a 412 yard par 4) and there was a single player in front of us. We asked him if he'd like to join up with us, but he declined - which is fine (...I don't neccessarily like playing with strangers either...) but he waited until the group ahead was on the green before teeing off...WITH AN IRON...and proceeded to hit it about 25 yards. His second shot was shanked into the tree line. Next he drops a ball and chunks it about 10 yards, drops another one and slices it into the tree line.

 

I've got nothing against people learning the game...we ALL were there one time. But shouldn't there be some responsibilty on the player to learn the game? I mean when I started playing ice hockey, I didn't suit up and go straight out and play in the elite division. I knew my limitations and went to open skate and learned how to skate and the basics before joining the base division and then subsequently working my way up to the division I'm in now.

 

I try and politely explain some stuff, but alot of people think you're just being a d***head, but I learned the game from golfers who already knew, so I figure I owe it to the game to try and do the same.

 

OK, rant over!

[littlepingman]

I keep the standing first tee time at my course. I hate slow play. It shouldn't take a foursome any longer than 3 hours 45 minutes to play 18 holes. However, I typically play as a two or threesome so I usually managed to get out of there in under 3 hours and thats walking. But since I know that most of the golfing world doesn't seem to play at an that pace I just avoid the entire situation and start first.

[Golfinnova]

What has not been mentioned is that golf course policies in regards to pace-of-play are set up to accomodate 4 mid/high handicap golfers that walk. Courses here in the DC area have between 4 hour 15 minute policies and 4 1/2 hours, my local course is 4 hours and 23 minutes. Yesterday, someone complained that he made the turn in 2 hours and 5 minutes then proceeded to complain that it was taking 25 minutes per hole. Management was able to show that all groups prior to that were playing the holes at pace of between 12-14 minutes thus within proper pace-of-play.

 

Weekend golf is always a challenge, you have beginners, 36-handicaps playing wrong tee boxes, guys bringing wives, kids. The regular foursomes at our course always take the early tee times so they can get in and out within the 4-hour frame. I played another course yesterday and the round took 4 hours and 45 minutes, I didn't get upset. I took it in stride because that is what happens with weekend golf, I talked to my friend about the weather, and current events. We had a great time.

 

One more point is that golf course managers will not force golfers to speed up pace if they are playing within the guidelines. The rangers have charts showing how long it takes to play a hole and if they are within guidelines, they are not to talk to the group. Those golfers wanting a sub 4-hour round need to either get the first tee time, join a private club or live with the fact that 4.5 rounds are condidered normal and will not be changed.

[jamesduncan]

well i just moved to Spain and man, I thought it was slow in the States...

 

to pipe in, 4 1/2 hours is pretty long..but 5 hours will kill any good golfers tempo.

 

About tournaments, I havent had the problem of a 5 hr round. All the USGA Qualifiers Ive played in have a strict enforcement for 4 hrs for a round and a lot if the mini tours seem to do a great job of enforcing slow play penalties.

 

Granted you tee it up on the weekend and you know what you've gotten yourself into, if not playing at a members course.

 

Its too bad, but it is a reality.

[littlepingman]

Let me start out by saying that if you want to play slow and watch butterflys and pet Bambi, fine. I have no problem with that.

 

BUT, if I'm on your a** and theres a hole and a half gap in front of you and you aren't letting me play through, you better expect to be in the drop zone. End of story.

 

If you play slow, let people play through. You don't care about that extra three minuites anyway, so why not let those of us who want to play go through?

 

You don't go 55 in the fast lane when you don't have a deadline (I hope) so why would you block the normal course of traffic on a golf course?

 

I wouldn't go so far as hitting into someone. But I know the frustration that you feel. If someone is on the third hole when I tee off and I have caught them by the time they putt out on the fourth hole, I am obviously playing faster than they are. Wave me through. Please. Let me be the one to determine if there is anywhere to go.

 

As I mentioned before, I keep the first tee time at my course. However, from time to time I do have to start later for whatever reason. And its amazing to me how slow this game has become. I mean come on, it shouldn't take SO long to mishit a shot.

[DRGJR72]

Pace of Play discussions are pure comedy. It is totally split down the middle. Some people love to play fast and some like to take their time a bit more.

 

I would say though to "drop zone" comment....Be careful who you hit into....you never know if there is someone up there that might be able to handle his business and make you pay for that bit of rage, not to mention that it is uncalled for and dangerous. I can assure you that if someone hit into my group intentionally there would be some golf balls being fired back and it would turn into war on the course.... :friends: Just kidding(I would not hit back at someone).......but it is dangerous.....

 

If there is a hole and a half open in front of the group that is holding you up...play around them...Hop in your cart and drive around them....the one putt or one iron shot that you did not take, will be more than made up for in the enjoyment of playing fast into the group that is in front of them.....and you can avoid the nasty staredowns in the bar after the round....

 

Being a golf pro for the past 15 years I have seen both sides of the coin when it comes to pace of play....Heck I have seen older, super succesful businessmen get in fights in the parking lot over it(at a private club).....there is a problem, but the answer is not racing around the golf course and forcing everyone to play in 3 hours....I am sorry but it is just not going to happen. I think that 345-4 hours is acceptable dependant on the time of and day and the day of the week.

 

You know what makes me laugh though...is the guy that stands in the fairway with his legs crossed, leaning on the club, staring you down like that is going to make you play faster or the 10 groups that are in front of my group play faster. Just relax and enjoy the fact that you are able to enjoy the benefit of being able to play this great game.

 

And just so you know...I am a fast player, I just understand both sides of the coin.

 

Dan

[archer]

I've long maintained that there are two kinds of slow players: those who don't realize they are slow, and those who don't care, otherwise known as the "I paid my fees and I'll take as long as I want and you can't do anything about it" crowd. Until I read some of the replies on this board, I always believed the latter, those who don't care, were in the majority. Clearly, I was wrong.

 

We have replies here from a number of people who consider a 4 1/2 hour pace to be normal and rather than accept some of the constructive ideas about how to pick up the pace from the folks from sandtrap.com, they instead choose to suggest that everyone else has a problem, that those of us who prefer to play in under four hours should perhaps "take up jogging" or that we "live with the fact that 4.5 hour rounds are considered normal and will not be changed" or that we "might as well adjust".

 

I could start a whole other thread on the arrogance of people who presume to dictate what is "normal" to others, but what would be the point? Instead, let me submit that, regardless of what these people think, I believe a golfer who wishes to play a sub-4 hour round is as "normal" as anyone else, that I will never "live with" 4 1/2 hour rounds, and that I refuse to adjust to the pace of "stop and smell the roses" gang.

 

I enjoyed reading the articles on sandtrap, but as I posted when they first appeared, they are a waste of time. The people who don't know they're slow will assume those suggestions on speeding up play will apply to other people, and the people who don't care will continue to proclaim that they are normal and that we should deal with it. There is, however, one remedy that the average golfer can employ that can have an effect on slow play: boycott courses that don't deal with it.

 

If you've played a round that took longer than 4 1/2 hours without attempting to remedy the problem, put it on your "do not play list".

 

If they throw foursomes out every 7 minutes, they don't care about your experience and can do without your hard-earned money.

 

If the course double tees, avoid it like the plague.

 

If the course manager considers 4 1/2 hours a worthy goal, they don't need your business.

 

If you run into a bottleneck on the course and they can't be bothered to come out and deal with the problem, why put money in their pockets?

 

Given the declining number of rounds played these days, golf is as much of a buyer's market as it's been in decades. If enough of you start holding courses accountable with your wallets, you might just make a difference.

[iJim]

You make alot of very admirable points. You really do.

 

Golf needs a concerted effort from its governing bodies to trigger a change in this slow play pattern. If this had a whole marketing campaign it could be very successful.

 

Plus, if the tour somehow manged to adopt a policy - it'll never happen - it would trickle down as they say.

 

 

 

I've long maintained that there are two kinds of slow players: those who don't realize they are slow, and those who don't care, otherwise known as the "I paid my fees and I'll take as long as I want and you can't do anything about it" crowd. Until I read some of the replies on this board, I always believed the latter, those who don't care, were in the majority. Clearly, I was wrong.

 

We have replies here from a number of people who consider a 4 1/2 hour pace to be normal and rather than accept some of the constructive ideas about how to pick up the pace from the folks from sandtrap.com, they instead choose to suggest that everyone else has a problem, that those of us who prefer to play in under four hours should perhaps "take up jogging" or that we "live with the fact that 4.5 hour rounds are considered normal and will not be changed" or that we "might as well adjust".

 

I could start a whole other thread on the arrogance of people who presume to dictate what is "normal" to others, but what would be the point? Instead, let me submit that, regardless of what these people think, I believe a golfer who wishes to play a sub-4 hour round is as "normal" as anyone else, that I will never "live with" 4 1/2 hour rounds, and that I refuse to adjust to the pace of "stop and smell the roses" gang.

 

I enjoyed reading the articles on sandtrap, but as I posted when they first appeared, they are a waste of time. The people who don't know they're slow will assume those suggestions on speeding up play will apply to other people, and the people who don't care will continue to proclaim that they are normal and that we should deal with it. There is, however, one remedy that the average golfer can employ that can have an effect on slow play: boycott courses that don't deal with it.

 

If you've played a round that took longer than 4 1/2 hours without attempting to remedy the problem, put it on your "do not play list".

 

If they throw foursomes out every 7 minutes, they don't care about your experience and can do without your hard-earned money.

 

If the course double tees, avoid it like the plague.

 

If the course manager considers 4 1/2 hours a worthy goal, they don't need your business.

 

If you run into a bottleneck on the course and they can't be bothered to come out and deal with the problem, why put money in their pockets?

 

Given the declining number of rounds played these days, golf is as much of a buyer's market as it's been in decades. If enough of you start holding courses accountable with your wallets, you might just make a difference.

[bethpage16]

Courtesy is indeed the key word. Our group ALWAYS lets faster individuals play through. Why is it so hard to understand that a foursome of " old geezers" that takes over 350 strokes per 18 holes has a hard time playing as fast as a foursome that takes 300 strokes. As i said earlier , i'm a 6 HC, but my friends aren't. i'm 62 and get stiff during long waits between shots. I'm sure this does effect my game. I wish my friends played better and faster. BUT THEY DON"t and never will. So i've come to realize that if i want to enjoy this sport and the time i have left on this earth, i need to RELAX and not worry about things i can not change. I guess i'm rather sensitive about this subject as we have a couble guys at our course who are outspoken about what they consider slow play and have directed this at my friends. Because of this, I use to have "hurry up " thoughts go through my head while lining up shots, but since i've come to realize they're jerks, I take my time on shots that are inportant to me. 4 1/2 hours is not to long for 18 holes of golf. I do think it's the courses responsiblity to enlighten new golfers as to how to be courteous on the course.

 

 

I think your freinds are doing a disservice to the great game of golf. they are being very selfish. pace of play is usually a result of attitude and courtesy (or lack of ) to others, not just strokes. we have a 80 year old at our club who probably takes an extra shot per hole than others, but still finishes in way under 4 hours. then there are others much younger........

[cdesana]

It is sort of funny to see how people defend slow play.

 

The facts are that there are a combination of things that have caused the average round to go from about 4 hours to the now almost certain weekend round of 5 hours.

 

The golf boom for one. There are tons of players on courses today that were not raised in the game. I know when I first started to play as a kid with my grandfather, the most important part of deal to take me out was to play fast and have proper golf etiquette. Which he showed me on the par 3 courses or pitch and putts.

 

Also, due to the influx of new players on courses today. They think what they see on TV is the norm.. You know, the whole 10 practice swings, looking at a putt from all angles, picturing the shot in their heads, plum bobbing and throwin grass in the air. Only to address the ball and be distracted, and have to start the whole process over again.

 

I may have mentioned this in a previous thread, but when I joined my first club years ago in Michigan. It was standard procedure for the club to have seminar for new members, explaining to them what was expected of them on and off the course. (Some HIGH END public courses I have played will have the starter do the same). Also at my club in Michigan, the pro would do all he could to play a round with new members to make sure they were on the right track.

 

All this being said, if the occasional slow round stops you from enjoying the day. Maybe just maybe it was not the pace of play that was the problem.

[Golfinnova]

archer,

 

Let me start by saying that I'm with you that pace-of-play is the top issue on why people quit playing golf today. However, you're missing the point of my last post. Golf course managers allow times to let those higher handicap players to play the course in a certain time. They paid their green fees just like you did and they are entitled to play the course in the alloted time frame, if they go over that then they can and should be warned to pick up the pace or get a raincheck. If a hole is designed to be at 14 minutes and a group plays it in 13 minutes, should they be punished?

 

This is an excerpt from the yardage book from Timbers of Troy in Elkridge, MD. "A round of golf should not exceed 4 1/2 hours. Play ready golf." Wolf Creek in Mesquite, Nevada is a guaranteed 5-hour minimum round and pace-of-play is not even a consideration, it's due to the elevation changes and distance between holes. At a 12-minute per hole pace, a group finishes a round in 216 minutes which is 3.6 hours that doesn't include any stops for bathroom, or food. If you add a 10-minute time frame then the group finishes at over 3.75 hours. In 25 years of playing the game, I have never seen people upset over 14-25 minutes of playing. Golf course managers realize that higher handicap golfers don't play at the same pace as single digit golfers thus give a buffer on pace. I'm currently a 21-handicap and can play within 4 hours; however, there needs to be a realistic expectation of a golf course especially when it comes to weekend play.

 

I agree that new golfers should learn to play on a par-3 course first, there should also be lessons on course etiquette including fixing ball marks correctly (I fixed way too many on Sunday). Then as the golfer becomes more proficient in playing ability, he or she can start playing from the forward tees then move back. 3 weeks ago, a group of hacks were playing from the tips and proceeded to spray the ball all over the place, they got warned to pick up the pace to which one golfer quit playing the round.

 

If you want to boycott courses that don't push sub 4-hour rounds, that's fine it's your choice (I think it'll prove futile), but I would strongly suggest that you contact a course before playing and ask the manager on what their pace-of-play policy is currently. That will help make things easier in choosing a course to play. Good Luck.

[greencarlito]

I think I speak for the majority when I say that, within reason, the problem isn't with how long people spend over the ball, but how slow they are in between shots. This includes going through the bag before every tee, driving the cart sideways between players shots, etc... I'm a slowish player in the sense that I take my time to get comfortable over the ball, but when its my turn I'm ready to hit. Thats why 18 hole matchplay seldom takes over 3 1/2 hours for me. If everyone could just be more efficient away from the shot, the state of the game would vastly improve.

 

Just my 2 cents

[archer]

Physicist Stephen Hawking is quoted as saying, “When one's expectations are reduced to zero, one really appreciates everything one does have.” I think that statement is true when it comes to this issue. We've come to the point where essentially well-meaning folks believe that a 4 1/2 hour round is "normal." I realize that I'm in the minority, but I can't bring myself to reduce my own expectations, and as I write this, I'm reminded that literally millions of Irish and Scots golfers, most of whom have never seen a golf cart, would be mortified to take more than 3 1/2 hours to play a round of golf. They too have a different perception of "normal."

 

Let me start by saying that I'm with you that pace-of-play is the top issue on why people quit playing golf today. However, you're missing the point of my last post. Golf course managers allow times to let those higher handicap players to play the course in a certain time.

 

Actually, I think you're being far too generous to course managers. I think it's more than reasonable to surmise that they set their respective paces of play so high so that they can stuff their tee sheets with foursomes every 6, 7, or 8 minutes and then wring their hands in helpless frustration over the resulting 5 hour rounds, pointing out that they are only trying to accommodate the higher handicappers. Call me a pessimist, but that's how I see it.

 

If you want to boycott courses that don't push sub 4-hour rounds, that's fine it's your choice (I think it'll prove futile), but I would strongly suggest that you contact a course before playing and ask the manager on what their pace-of-play policy is currently. That will help make things easier in choosing a course to play. Good Luck.

 

Actually I don't boycott course that don't push sub 4-hour rounds. In a nutshell, I boycott courses that take my green fees and stuff me onto crowded courses without regard to the quality of my experience. I do however, appreciate you wishing me luck, and I'm happy to report that my little boycott works well. Within a fifty-mile radius of my home, there are about 200 golf courses. In the last decade, I've played somewhere north of 70 of those, and about a dozen and a half have earned conspicuous placement on my "do not play" list. I've played about 40 rounds of golf thus far this year. Thanks to scrupulous adherence to the "list" and a judicious selection of tee times most likely to produce a favorable result (the dewsweeper times), all but a handful of those rounds have been played in less than 4 hours, and the overwhelming majority of them, in less than 3 1/2 hours. Scramble tournaments and late weekend tee times in order to accommodate friends account for the lengthier rounds. This morning, I played a rounds with 2 friends, one of whom recently celebrated his 93rd birthday, in 3 hours and 20 minutes.

 

For those of you slow play defenders who insist on equating "fast play" with Type A personalities rushing around hurrying their shots and constantly checking their watches, let me say nothing could be further from the truth. My playing partners and I play at a relaxed pace; we don't hurry and we don't rush our shots. We hit our tee shots, walk to the ball, select a club, hit the next shot, and repeat the process for 18 holes. Before you know it, the round is over, and only 3 hours and change have elapsed. The only time we ever dig our watches out of our bags is during the winter when the crack of dawn comes well after 7 AM and a round of just over 3 hours is essential to making it to the grillroom before they close the breakfast menu and start putting out those ubiquitous hot dogs.

 

Finally, I really don't begrudge any of the slow players their preferred pace of play; I just don't want to end up behind them if I can help it.

[bassman1308]

Some people want to play fast for what ever reason. Some people play slower. The later, i think, because they are new to golf and and do not know golf etiquitte or are not very good. As it's in the best interest of the golf courses to keep play moving and everyone happy , they should also do more to educate new golfers. Golfs a hard game to learn. Besides all the swing thoughts they are trying to remember, there's also the etiquitte part. Thinking of all these things needs to become automatic, but that takes time. I've dealt with the public for several years and i know most people want to do the right thing. IMO, course managers need to do more, hand out printed rules and tips regarding golf etiquitte, engage in friendly, lighthearted discussions about speeding up play, while pointing out the numerous benefits to the new/slow player. This is a service that course managers need to provide more of. After all, its to their benefit to improve playing conditions at their course. I still think 4.5 hrs is not to long for a foursomes 18 holes and i respectfully resent someone trying to speed up our game to fit their 3.5 hr standards. but I do sincerly hope those that want faster play can find a course that fits their needs or learn to enjoy the game that i know.

[bogeyk]

I think a major problem is players not getting to there ball in due time. If walking, I feel it is not rude to walk ahead of other players as long as it is not in their line of site or play. You don't need to stand behind the player hitting the ball. You can go to your ball and choose your club while the other player is preparing to hit a shot. If riding, after someone chooses a club take the cart to your ball. The other guy can walk to the cart. Also, you don't have to walk down the middle of the fairway as if you're in a gang. If you go left and your buddy goes right you can separate at the tee. You will find each other on the green.

[Joe Schmoe]

Here is a new concept... The pace of play goal should be dependant on your starting time.

 

First hour of teetimes groups should be expected to play in 3:15 (this may mean twosomes or threesomes, especially if the course doesn't pair people up)

Next hour 3:30

Next hour 3:45

Next hour 4:00

Next hour 4:15

After that 4:30.

 

The other alternative at places with more than 18 holes is to have different pace of play expectations for each course. And this should rotate so that one week course A is the fast course, and the next week course B is the fast course.

[IndyIN]

Finally, I really don't begrudge any of the slow players their preferred pace of play; I just don't want to end up behind them if I can help it.

 

LOL… I’m sure they don’t want you behind them, too.

 

What I absolutely can’t stand is some guy behind me pushing. My 4some typically plays around 3:45 and from time to time we’ll get someone behind us who wants to set a record for the least amount of time spent on a golf course. What’s not easy to see (sometimes) is the group in front just around the dogleg or the people that just walked off the green on a par 3… all that is seen is a group standing on the tee box and no one in front of them.