BENT LEFT ARMS

[birdie_man]

I think there was a misunderstanding.

 

Mostly, I really have nothing against bent left arms in general. I think it was assumed that I did. This is understandable.

 

(though I MAY have been, at least for the most part, talking about something else.....)

 

In fact, I WOULD say I have a problem with a left arm that is TOO straight and too rigid. If it is impeding your ability to be loose and swing your arms and stress the shaft and create speed......and/or if it is shortening your swing too much...............................................you are probably overdoing it.

 

So- if a person has to bend their left arm or hits it better that way then I don't see what the big deal is. IMO.

 

Heck, I will even give you a list:

 

-Bobby Jones

-Calvin Peete (very straight hitting)

-Fred Couples

-Hale Irwin

-John Daly?

-Goosen?

-Brian Manzella (a teacher I've learned a lot from and who has flexibility issues)

 

I am sure there are many more and I welcome any additions to the list.

 

...

 

I am not trying to start an argument or get a reaction. But I do feel the need to be able to respond. I really do not want things to get out of control and will put forth an effort on my part so that they do not. You have to understand though that I really dislike not being able to have my say. I don't think I am alone. I think this is fair.

 

I have no problem with being civil and fair and I think I have demonstrated this thoroughly. Heated debate is another issue. I think it is perfectly fine.

 

In fact- PLEASE criticize anything that I say that you think is wrong. I welcome this.

 

Mods- please PM me if you have an issue with this and we will figure it out. I don't want to be a problem.

[hoganfan924]

No problem birdie man!

I don't have an "issue" with bent left arms (to each his own) but, I believe that the vast majority of golfers who do bend their left arms do so unnecessarily. If you can achieve a 90 deg. shoulder turn with a driver, bending the left arm is unnecessary IMO. What I find with many players who do this move is that they instinctively feel that their backswing is too short and once the shoulder turn stops, they allow the arms to keep going, often by bending the left arm. They often then have to start the downswing with their arms first in order to get them to catch up with the body, [b]or[/b] they have to slow their downswing pivot before impact to allow the arms to catch up (lateral move to square the hips to the target line then a stall out). Either of those two moves IMO, are power leaks. Why?

Starting down with the arms almost always leads to casting (not 100% of the time as demonstrated by very, very good players)
Slowing the downswing pivot reduces the tension in the core muscles, reducing the force that they can transfer to the upper torso and will then require arm power to generate clubhead speed.

Working on a shorter armswing that is synched up with my shoulder turn is the biggest thing that I've been working on in my own swing for the last year. While it defys my instincts, I hit the ball much more consistently and longer when I do this right.

BTW,

While the increased level of Vitriol on this site in recent weeks has been a real turn off and is no help to golfers coming here for swing advice, being hyper sensitive about legitimate debates (not you Birdie Man) is no fun either. I have no problem if someone here thinks I'm FOS as long as they have a well thought out argument and can present it in an intelligent manner. I came to this site 11 months ago both to learn and to help other golfers and it's not going to be any fun at all if people like you feel intimidated by overly sensitive members & moderators to participate in the debate. It's just golf!!!

[JeffMann]

Hoganfan924

I can easily achieve a 90 degree shoulder turn during the backswing, but my left arm always bends against my will when it moves across my chest. You state that it is "unnecessary" and that statement automatically implies that I have the conscious ability/choice to control that phenomenon. On what basis can you make that claim? Why on earth would I choose to bend my left arm in the later backswing, which causes my hands and clubshaft to go off plane? Why would I deliberately make that choice when I know that it has such deleterious consequences?

Jeff.

[Points]

I think that shutting down the last post regarding spine movements is an absolute and utter joke. No poor language or anything to be ashamed of. It is a completely arbitrary decision because someone did not like the tone. I think that people who belittle others on the internet show their true colors. When certain people are challenged, they cower into personal attacks on others which I believe only shows how weak their point actually is. I do find it comical that many of the "experts" on this and others sites are nothing more than Sunday afternoon quarterbacks. Are they entitled to their opinion? Absolutely. Does it mean they have any field knowledge as to what is going on with the game and how to teach the game? NO
You see golf is not played with words, still photos, quotes, or second hand information. Instead, it is an athletic endeavor played by people. Are their great players with bent left arms? Yes. Are their great players whose hands come off the club? Yes. In fact, if you really study video you will come to the conclusion that there are far fewer truths or absolutes than many on this site believe. I can't think of a day going by where I have not seen a move that was not different. In my opinion, different is ok. There are 6.6 billion people on the planet so their has to be lots of room for uniqueness. Now, I say that because it certainly matters at what level they are playing the game. I let lots of things go with my juniors because I don't want to stifle or stunt their growth as players. I would hate to be the guy that changed a Furyk, Nicklaus, Miller Barber, Jimenez, or Cabrera. As a teacher, I would love to have five juniors all with unique swings who hit it great. Then I know that I am doing my job. Using my knowledge and creativity to help players play great golf.
The game, like life, is played by imperfect people. For all you reading this, it is also a hard game. Make no mistakes. It takes time, patience, desire, and most importantly discipline. There are no real secret moves. Anyone selling this type of idea has done little to no real research.

[Points]

[quote name='hoganfan924' post='817020' date='Dec 8 2007, 05:30 PM']I don't have an "issue" with bent left arms (to each his own) but, I believe that the vast majority of golfers who do bend their left arms do so unnecessarily. If you can achieve a 90 deg. shoulder turn with a driver, bending the left arm is unnecessary IMO. What I find with many players who do this move is that they instinctively feel that their backswing is too short and once the shoulder turn stops, they allow the arms to keep going, often by bending the left arm. They often then have to start the downswing with their arms first in order to get them to catch up with the body, [b]or[/b] they have to slow their downswing pivot before impact to allow the arms to catch up (lateral move to square the hips to the target line then a stall out). Either of those two moves IMO, are power leaks. Why?[/quote]

This is just silly. Most players lefts arms are bent to certain degree. The biggest mistake is that the arm is supposed to be rigidly straight. This to me is a much bigger killer of good swings as it causes tension to rise throughout the arms and body. In fact, lots do it because the majority of people playing golf are in terrible shape and lack the range of motion to properly make a great coil back. Golf would be a very simple game if you just had to turn to the top with a decent clubface and a straight left arm. I could teach that all day and it would be very simple. I take that back if the game were that simple I would be out of business because people would no longer need me.

[jeffy]

Vardon played with a bent left arm and felt that the straight left arm, which started to be adopted toward the end of his career, would be ruinous to the game. Guess he was wrong.

I also guess I don't understand the sensitivity to this subject by a certain party. I am unaware of any logical biomechanical argument that someone with his range of motion would be required to bend his left arm in order to make an effective swing. I can think of a thing or two that he might need TO CHANGE in order to do that, but he doesn't seem to be in a mood to listen to others.

[Points]

Give it up.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='JeffMann' post='817038' date='Dec 8 2007, 05:42 PM']Hoganfan924

I can easily achieve a 90 degree shoulder turn during the backswing, but my left arm always bends against my will when it moves across my chest. You state that it is "unnecessary" and that statement automatically implies that I have the conscious ability/choice to control that phenomenon. On what basis can you make that claim? Why on earth would I choose to bend my left arm in the later backswing, which causes my hands and clubshaft to go off plane? Why would I deliberately make that choice when I know that it has such deleterious consequences?

Jeff.[/quote]

Jeff,

Compare the angle of your upper left arm from your 8 part OTT lesson to the angle of my left arm in my avatar or in one of my swings posted on youtube. Or compare it to the students that Slicefixer posted, I'll bet they're not much different. Looking at the swing you demonstrate in your 8 part OTT lesson (I watched every one!) you indeed have very good flexibility and appear to achieve at least a 90 deg. shoulder turn (looks like even more). I see no evidence of a disability. You most definitely have the conscious ability not to bend your left arm, In my opinion, you just ingrained this habit over time (very common BTW). If it works better for you, then Great!! (100% sincere).

As Lakewoodgcc said, you just over flex at the right elbow which then requires you to bend the left arm and cross the line. Some would descibe it as your backswing being too narrow, hands are too close to your right ear at the top. So the bending is more a result of what the right arm is doing (too narrow, lacks extension). I think though, that you probably have other compensations in your set-up or motion to make that bent left arm work better for you with your current swing. I honestly believe that if you posted some full swings here hitting a ball that you would get some very good swing advice from guys like Slicefixer, Lakewoodgcc, Jim0068, Points and a few others.

Good luck with your game. Let us know when the big match with Jeffy plays out!

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='Points' post='817051' date='Dec 8 2007, 05:51 PM'][quote name='hoganfan924' post='817020' date='Dec 8 2007, 05:30 PM']I don't have an "issue" with bent left arms (to each his own) but, I believe that the vast majority of golfers who do bend their left arms do so unnecessarily. If you can achieve a 90 deg. shoulder turn with a driver, bending the left arm is unnecessary IMO. What I find with many players who do this move is that they instinctively feel that their backswing is too short and once the shoulder turn stops, they allow the arms to keep going, often by bending the left arm. They often then have to start the downswing with their arms first in order to get them to catch up with the body, [b]or[/b] they have to slow their downswing pivot before impact to allow the arms to catch up (lateral move to square the hips to the target line then a stall out). Either of those two moves IMO, are power leaks. Why?[/quote]

This is just silly. Most players lefts arms are bent to certain degree. The biggest mistake is that the arm is supposed to be rigidly straight. This to me is a much bigger killer of good swings as it causes tension to rise throughout the arms and body. In fact, lots do it because the majority of people playing golf are in terrible shape and lack the range of motion to properly make a great coil back. Golf would be a very simple game if you just had to turn to the top with a decent clubface and a straight left arm. I could teach that all day and it would be very simple. I take that back if the game were that simple I would be out of business because people would no longer need me.
[/quote]

Points,

I guess the vast majority of great players are "silly." Just go down the career wins list and let us know how many of those guys were being silly. I'm certain you're aware that there is a world of difference between straight and "locked out" or hyperextended. I do not advocate a hyperextended left elbow. If the player has sufficient flexibility to make a good shoulder turn, then bending the left arm isn't necessary IMO (and I'm sticking to it). I think it's an extra moving part that adds additional complexity and a timing element to the golf swing.

[Points]

\Hoganfan,

In your original statement, you stated that the vast majority of golfers do so unnecesarrily. No where were great players ever mentioned. What club are you talking about?

I would venture to say that if you did a little homework and looked at players with a driver that you would certainly see a certain degree of bend or give in the left elbow. While not as obvious as a Cabrera, it is there. Do all great players have bend in their arm? No Do some? Yes

Think for on second of Hogan. Please tell me how you can get the club that far past parrallel and keep your left arm straight. Lots of great players have swung the driver past parrallel and do have bend in their left arms with a driver.

[JeffMann]

Hognafan 924

You stated-: "I see no evidence of a disability. You most definitely have the conscious ability not to bend your left arm, In my opinion, you just ingrained this habit over time (very common BTW)."

You have made two statements. In the first statement you state that you cannot identify any disability that would prevent me having a straight left arm. In the second statement, you therefore conclude that I have the conscious ability (choice) to [b]not[/b] bend my left arm - implying that's it's merely a matter of personal choice.

Now consider those two statements in the context of my video lesson.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVwzAKTDICE"]Segment 7[/url]

Starting at 1:47 minutes into this segment, I start discussing the movement of the left arm in the backswing. At 3:12 minutes into that segment, I specifically describe how the straight left arm should be brought across the chest so that the left thumb should go to the right shoulder and in demonstrating that action my left arm bends. Do you really believe that I would consciously bend the left arm while trying to demonstrate how a straight left arm should be brought across the chest in the backswing? Note also how my left arm never even approximates the right shoulder and that my left arm bends every time I attempt to demonstrate that movement. At 4:15 minutes into that segment I state that I cannot get the left arm all the way without bending my left arm. Now, do you think that if this left arm bending (or not bending) was under conscious control that I would deliberately embarass myself by not showing how one should place a straight left arm across the shoulder turn angle? In every other instance in my video lesson, I could successfully demonstrate many different body movements (eg. how the right wrist hinges, how the shoulders turn at 90 degrees to the spine, how the right hip pivots in the backswing, how the spine moves in the backswing) but the [b]one [/b]movement I could not demonstrate is how the straight left arm moves across the chest. Why? Why would I be [b]selectively stupid [/b] and deliberately [b]not[/b] demonstrate this movement if it is under conscious control (as you claim)? Does it not occur to you that I could have a physical disability that prevents me straightening my left arm - even though you cannot visually identify it?

Jeff.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='Points' post='817099' date='Dec 8 2007, 06:28 PM']\Hoganfan,

In your original statement, you stated that the vast majority of golfers do so unnecesarrily. No where were great players ever mentioned. What club are you talking about?

I would venture to say that if you did a little homework and looked at players with a driver that you would certainly see a certain degree of bend or give in the left elbow. While not as obvious as a Cabrera, it is there. Do all great players have bend in their arm? No Do some? Yes

Think for on second of Hogan. Please tell me how you can get the club that far past parrallel and keep your left arm straight. Lots of great players have swung the driver past parrallel and do have bend in their left arms with a driver.[/quote]

Not really understanding your "points." I think the club being used is somewhat irrelevant although I'll grant you that more players bend the left arm with the driver than any other club (in an attempt to get more backswing length). I've never seen a Hogan swing where it looks like he has any significant break of his left elbow, but maybe we're just defining things differently. If there's one or 2 degrees of bend, that's straight enough for me, if we're talking about someone bending 10 or 20 degrees, then I think they have an unnecessary complication in their swing (assuming they can make a sufficient shoulder turn).

I'm sure you're familiar with this Hogan clip: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_6M_xZvq0"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_6M_xZvq0[/url]

He was 53 years old at the time and obviously less flexible than when he was a younger man. Do you define him as having a bend in his left arm? IMO, it's straight but not locked out (hyperextended). If you define it as bent, then I'd have to agree that according to that definition almost all players bend their left arm.

I think a lot of players in the last 10 years or so were unintentionally messed up by the mistaken notion of achieving X-factor by restricting hip turn. Then they learned to break the left arm to achieve sufficient length in the backswing. I know you're familiar with that issue. To McLean's credit, he addressed this in a subsequent GD article.

[Points]

I think the club being used is very relevant. A driver swing and a wedge swing are certainly different in terms of stance width, weight transfer, and length of swing. However, going off of your definition I attached a picture of a young Hogan. If the arm were straight as you stated that most great players are then the angle of the left arm would be 180 degree with up to minus five. Using Hogan as the example, I would clearly say that his left arm is bent in this particular picture. I would continue to go through several other examples like Nelson, Waton, Dermaret, etc but I think the point is made.

[hoganfan924]

Jeff,

It's very clear from the video that you have no problem maintaining a straight left arm when the left arm is at the 9 o'clock position, even though your shoulder turn is not completed at this point. If you just stop the armswing at that point and finished your shoulder turn, you would have a very nice on plane backswing. There are two main reasons you cross the line at the top which also greatly contribute to bending of the left arm:

1. You over flex the right elbow (using an very inexpensive training device know as the "swing extender" would greatly help you IMO)
2. You lift the right elbow (aka flying right elbow)

I think you know me well enough to know I don't resort to name calling. I would never call you stupid and never have. Clearly you're very intelligent and have done a great deal of homework to develop your swing knowledge to the point you have in such a short period of time. Perhaps it would surprise you to know that I actually agree with many of your ideas on the golf swing.

[Golfchicago]

[quote name='Points' post='817040' date='Dec 8 2007, 06:43 PM']I think that shutting down the last post regarding spine movements is an absolute and utter joke. No poor language or anything to be ashamed of. It is a completely arbitrary decision because someone did not like the tone. I think that people who belittle others on the internet show their true colors. When certain people are challenged, they cower into personal attacks on others which I believe only shows how weak their point actually is. I do find it comical that many of the "experts" on this and others sites are nothing more than Sunday afternoon quarterbacks. Are they entitled to their opinion? Absolutely. Does it mean they have any field knowledge as to what is going on with the game and how to teach the game? NO
You see golf is not played with words, still photos, quotes, or second hand information. Instead, it is an athletic endeavor played by people. Are their great players with bent left arms? Yes. Are their great players whose hands come off the club? Yes. In fact, if you really study video you will come to the conclusion that there are far fewer truths or absolutes than many on this site believe. I can't think of a day going by where I have not seen a move that was not different. In my opinion, different is ok. There are 6.6 billion people on the planet so their has to be lots of room for uniqueness. Now, I say that because it certainly matters at what level they are playing the game. I let lots of things go with my juniors because I don't want to stifle or stunt their growth as players. I would hate to be the guy that changed a Furyk, Nicklaus, Miller Barber, Jimenez, or Cabrera. As a teacher, I would love to have five juniors all with unique swings who hit it great. Then I know that I am doing my job. Using my knowledge and creativity to help players play great golf.
The game, like life, is played by imperfect people. For all you reading this, it is also a hard game. Make no mistakes. It takes time, patience, desire, and most importantly discipline. There are no real secret moves. Anyone selling this type of idea has done little to no real research.[/quote]
Points is entitled to his opinion. This website has rules and one of the rules is that we respect each other. If that is violated to the point of name calling then appropiate action must be taken to maintain order. Healthy and spirited debate can happen without name calling. This was stated in the post and is being stated again. Healthy and spirited debate is encouraged here. Finding the truth and exposing the truth is encouraged here, but also professionalism is encouraged here. I am glad this part of the thread is being continued. That is what I am talking about! There was nothing "arbitrary" about the decision to shut the previous post down. Anyone can read the final posts in that thread and see what I based my decison on. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion here but WRX is not going to allow this to turn into a mudslinging event.

[Lake]

"Stretching - hyper extending - and locking the elbow is [b]not [/b]a straight left arm! All the golfer has done successfully is to increase the radius from the left shoulder to the ground. This is a major cause of "fat shots!" This is what a straight left arm is not! -Chuck Cook

"For the majority of people a left arm that hangs downward has an elbow joint. This joint has between three and five degrees of bend in it. This is what a straight left arm [b]is[/b]." -Chuck Cook

[JeffMann]

Hoganfan924

 

I know you never indulge in name calling and that you would never label me as being stupid (like another uncivil forum member). However, you implied that not bending the left arm could be a conscious choice, and you implied that I just have a bad habit. I think that you are wrong, and I will explain the reason why I bend my left arm non-deliberately during the late backswing - and it has nothing to do with the right arm. That SwingExtender device is based on an incorrect understanding of the problem that plagues many golfers who have a bent left arm. It implies that the left arm bends because it is pulled to a bent position by improper functioning/positioning of the right arm. That's not my primary problem because my left arm bends as much when I swing single-handed - left arm alone. So the problem lies in the left side.

 

Most people (golfers and even golf instructors) think, when they see a bent left arm during the backswing, that the primary problem is an incomplete shoulder turn. That often is the cause, but it doesn't apply to me because I can achieve a 90 degree+ shoulder turn, which is sufficient. I can also get a 45 degree hip turn, so that is not the limiting factor. Therefore, there must be another factor. What many people do not consider is the degree to which the scapula slides across the back during the shoulder turn. It should slide about 6-8" laterally (towards the front) and that brings the left shoulder socket well forward. Look at Hogan.

 

 

The yellow line roughly represents Hogan's shoulder turn, which is 90 degrees +. More importantly, look at point X - that's the position of the left humeral head. Note that Hogan can get his left humeral head ahead of his shoulder turn angle, and that allows him to approximate his left arm to his chest wall. I cannot get my left arm to lie along my left chest wall - like Hogan - and the reason is that I cannot slide my left scapula forward enough. If you study photos of my swing, you will see that my left humeral head is well behind the shoulder turn angle. There is approximately a 4" limitation in the forward movement of my left shoulder socket, and therefore left humeral head, and that's my problem. My left arm bends because if the left shoulder socket is too far back by about 4", then the origin (point of attachment) of the biceps muscle is further back by 4" and that pulls the left elbow into a bent position as the left arm moves further around in the direction of the right shoulder.

 

Therefore, when a golf instructor evaluates a student golfer for reasons why the left arm bends in the backswing, he should not only consider limitations in rotation of the upper torso around the spine - he should assess how much the scapula slides across the chest wall. If a golf instructor doesn't know how much the left scapula should slide across the chest wall, and has no method of assessing whether the amount of slide is normal/adequate, then that represents a gap in his knowledge which should be remedied.

 

Regarding the reason why I have a marked inability to slide my scapula across the chest wall, I think that it relates to the fact that I never played golf when I was young (which helps to stretch the muscles surrounding the scapula (shoulder girdle muscles) and I therefore have over-tight/fibrotic peri-scapular muscles. Unfortunately, I didn't do any other upper body exercises, like swimming or gym stretching exercises, during the ages 20-55. I only used to exercise my lower body - I was an avid jogger/cyclist. I am now suffering the consequences of insufficient upper body exercise-stretching during my youth and middle age. I am now trying to remedy the situation by doing peri-scapular muscle stretching exercises everyday, and I hope to see some benefit within 1-2 years.

 

Jeff.

[Lake]

Jeff,

I haven't thought about this website in a long time and this subject jarred my noggin. I was wanting to see if you have heard of Microfiber Reduction and if so what you thought about it. [url="http://www.somaxsports.com/"]http://www.somaxsports.com/[/url]

[slicefixer]

IMOP.........repeat, IMOP.........the REALLY important thing is that the left arm doesn't COLLAPSE (like a folding chair) because when it does the "radius" of the circle the arms travels in collapses with it......then the "circle" ("ellipse") that the clubhead does likewise.........can "this" be overcome? Why sure.......but it does ADD a LOT of extra movement and UNnecessary "motion" which, in most cases, is NOT good news......AND the "compensating moves" for a "collapesed radius" are usually NOT a good thing to develop...........(however, some players use the "compensating moves" in their swing as a VERY effective "timing element"......Miller Barber/Furyk come to mind immediately, etc.) As a general rule, again IMOP, the FEWER the number of moving parts the better......"the SIMPLER the better".......One other thing, in MY experience the folk's who have "flexibility" issues with the left arm simply are NOT using the left arm correctly......usually "suckin' it across their chest" with lil' or no FOREARM rotation........IMOP.......

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='lake' post='817204' date='Dec 8 2007, 08:12 PM']"Stretching - hyper extending - and locking the elbow is [b]not [/b]a straight left arm! All the golfer has done successfully is to increase the radius from the left shoulder to the ground. This is a major cause of "fat shots!" This is what a straight left arm is not! -Chuck Cook

"For the majority of people a left arm that hangs downward has an elbow joint. This joint has between three and five degrees of bend in it. This is what a straight left arm [b]is[/b]." -Chuck Cook[/quote]

lake,

Thanks very much for that. Helps clarify things. If you look at X-rays of a "straight" arm, the humerous bone is nowhere near being colinear with the radius or ulna, so what appears bent to some is anatomically straight. Much more so in males than females BTW.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='Points' post='817145' date='Dec 8 2007, 07:02 PM']I think the club being used is very relevant. A driver swing and a wedge swing are certainly different in terms of stance width, weight transfer, and length of swing. However, going off of your definition I attached a picture of a young Hogan. If the arm were straight as you stated that most great players are then the angle of the left arm would be 180 degree with up to minus five. Using Hogan as the example, I would clearly say that his left arm is bent in this particular picture. I would continue to go through several other examples like Nelson, Waton, Dermaret, etc but I think the point is made.[/quote]

Points,

Touche. Indeed Hogan appears to be bending his arm slightly in that swing (but nowhere near the degree that you claim IMO - see previous posts by me and Lake). I'd be interested to know what year that was taken. Also, please look at this video and tell me if you think he is bending his left arm or not:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiTUWIUEfdg"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiTUWIUEfdg[/url]
or this one:
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-CreBqV52w"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-CreBqV52w[/url]
or these:
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2Gegrylaqg"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2Gegrylaqg[/url]

[hayam]

Can you play with bend left arm?

We can ask Curtis Strange.

Seve Ballesteros deliberately bend his arm after impact for around the green.

But the shots gonna come out alot less compression and fly much softer. Could be a matter of choice. Depends if we know what we are trying to do.

However, I heard that Hogan ever worked on trying to keep that left arm straight for 2 years.

It took a little education by Dana , and I know how to keep my left arm straight good now. there more than one way i know of.

[jeffy]

Hoganfan924

 

I know you never indulge in name calling and that you would never label me as being stupid (like another uncivil forum member). However, you implied that not bending the left arm could be a conscious choice, and you implied that I just have a bad habit. I think that you are wrong, and I will explain the reason why I bend my left arm non-deliberately during the late backswing - and it has nothing to do with the right arm. That SwingExtender device is based on an incorrect understanding of the problem that plagues many golfers who have a bent left arm. It implies that the left arm bends because it is pulled to a bent position by improper functioning/positioning of the right arm. That's not my primary problem because my left arm bends as much when I swing single-handed - left arm alone. So the problem lies in the left side.

 

Most people (golfers and even golf instructors) think, when they see a bent left arm during the backswing, that the primary problem is an incomplete shoulder turn. That often is the cause, but it doesn't apply to me because I can achieve a 90 degree+ shoulder turn, which is sufficient. I can also get a 45 degree hip turn, so that is not the limiting factor. Therefore, there must be another factor. What many people do not consider is the degree to which the scapula slides across the back during the shoulder turn. It should slide about 6-8" laterally (towards the front) and that brings the left shoulder socket well forward. Look at Hogan.

 

 

The yellow line roughly represents Hogan's shoulder turn, which is 90 degrees +. More importantly, look at point X - that's the position of the left humeral head. Note that Hogan can get his left humeral head ahead of his shoulder turn angle, and that allows him to approximate his left arm to his chest wall. I cannot get my left arm to lie along my left chest wall - like Hogan - and the reason is that I cannot slide my left scapula forward enough. If you study photos of my swing, you will see that my left humeral head is well behind the shoulder turn angle. There is approximately a 4" limitation in the forward movement of my left shoulder socket, and therefore left humeral head, and that's my problem. My left arm bends because if the left shoulder socket is too far back by about 4", then the origin (point of attachment) of the biceps muscle is further back by 4" and that pulls the left elbow into a bent position as the left arm moves further around in the direction of the right shoulder.

 

Therefore, when a golf instructor evaluates a student golfer for reasons why the left arm bends in the backswing, he should not only consider limitations in rotation of the upper torso around the spine - he should assess how much the scapula slides across the chest wall. If a golf instructor doesn't know how much the left scapula should slide across the chest wall, and has no method of assessing whether the amount of slide is normal/adequate, then that represents a gap in his knowledge which should be remedied.

 

Regarding the reason why I have a marked inability to slide my scapula across the chest wall, I think that it relates to the fact that I never played golf when I was young (which helps to stretch the muscles surrounding the scapula (shoulder girdle muscles) and I therefore have over-tight/fibrotic peri-scapular muscles. Unfortunately, I didn't do any other upper body exercises, like swimming or gym stretching exercises, during the ages 20-55. I only used to exercise my lower body - I was an avid jogger/cyclist. I am now suffering the consequences of insufficient upper body exercise-stretching during my youth and middle age. I am now trying to remedy the situation by doing peri-scapular muscle stretching exercises everyday, and I hope to see some benefit within 1-2 years.

 

Jeff.

 

Again, I have yet to hear a logical biomechanical argument why you need to bend your left arm in order to have an effective golf swing. Of course, Vardon played with a left arm that was VERY bent and believed that a bent left arm was essential to good play. Therefore, there is no reason for you to feel ashamed of your bent left arm. Vardon would applaud!

 

However, your explanation of WHY you NEED to bend your left arm in order to make an effective golf swing is deficient. You talk about needing to get your left arm across the chest. Why? Some great players do, others don't. Some teachers insist that keeping the arms in front of the chest is essential. IMO, getting the left arm "across the chest" isn't that big a deal. Why do you think it is?

 

You insist that you "can't" make an effective swing with a straight left arm, but slice, Hoganfan, me and others think you can. If you don't want to, that's fine. But, you have provided no evidentiary support that you MUST bend your left arm in order to have an effective golf swing. You complain that you have been called "stupid". Who called you "stupid"? When? Where? Responsible forum members do not make unsubstantiated allegations.

[Geo]

Hoganfan924

 

I know you never indulge in name calling and that you would never label me as being stupid (like another uncivil forum member). However, you implied that not bending the left arm could be a conscious choice, and you implied that I just have a bad habit. I think that you are wrong, and I will explain the reason why I bend my left arm non-deliberately during the late backswing - and it has nothing to do with the right arm. That SwingExtender device is based on an incorrect understanding of the problem that plagues many golfers who have a bent left arm. It implies that the left arm bends because it is pulled to a bent position by improper functioning/positioning of the right arm. That's not my primary problem because my left arm bends as much when I swing single-handed - left arm alone. So the problem lies in the left side.

 

Most people (golfers and even golf instructors) think, when they see a bent left arm during the backswing, that the primary problem is an incomplete shoulder turn. That often is the cause, but it doesn't apply to me because I can achieve a 90 degree+ shoulder turn, which is sufficient. I can also get a 45 degree hip turn, so that is not the limiting factor. Therefore, there must be another factor. What many people do not consider is the degree to which the scapula slides across the back during the shoulder turn. It should slide about 6-8" laterally (towards the front) and that brings the left shoulder socket well forward. Look at Hogan.

 

 

The yellow line roughly represents Hogan's shoulder turn, which is 90 degrees +. More importantly, look at point X - that's the position of the left humeral head. Note that Hogan can get his left humeral head ahead of his shoulder turn angle, and that allows him to approximate his left arm to his chest wall. I cannot get my left arm to lie along my left chest wall - like Hogan - and the reason is that I cannot slide my left scapula forward enough. If you study photos of my swing, you will see that my left humeral head is well behind the shoulder turn angle. There is approximately a 4" limitation in the forward movement of my left shoulder socket, and therefore left humeral head, and that's my problem. My left arm bends because if the left shoulder socket is too far back by about 4", then the origin (point of attachment) of the biceps muscle is further back by 4" and that pulls the left elbow into a bent position as the left arm moves further around in the direction of the right shoulder.

 

Therefore, when a golf instructor evaluates a student golfer for reasons why the left arm bends in the backswing, he should not only consider limitations in rotation of the upper torso around the spine - he should assess how much the scapula slides across the chest wall. If a golf instructor doesn't know how much the left scapula should slide across the chest wall, and has no method of assessing whether the amount of slide is normal/adequate, then that represents a gap in his knowledge which should be remedied.

 

Regarding the reason why I have a marked inability to slide my scapula across the chest wall, I think that it relates to the fact that I never played golf when I was young (which helps to stretch the muscles surrounding the scapula (shoulder girdle muscles) and I therefore have over-tight/fibrotic peri-scapular muscles. Unfortunately, I didn't do any other upper body exercises, like swimming or gym stretching exercises, during the ages 20-55. I only used to exercise my lower body - I was an avid jogger/cyclist. I am now suffering the consequences of insufficient upper body exercise-stretching during my youth and middle age. I am now trying to remedy the situation by doing peri-scapular muscle stretching exercises everyday, and I hope to see some benefit within 1-2 years.

 

Jeff.

 

Again, I have yet to hear a logical biomechanical argument why you need to bend your left arm in order to have an effective golf swing. Of course, Vardon played with a left arm that was VERY bent and believed that a bent left arm was essential to good play. Therefore, there is no reason for you to feel ashamed of your bent left arm. Vardon would applaud!

 

However, your explanation of WHY you NEED to bend your left arm in order to make an effective golf swing is deficient. You talk about needing to get your left arm across the chest. Why? Some great players do, others don't. Some teachers insist that keeping the arms in front of the chest is essential. IMO, getting the left arm "across the chest" isn't that big a deal. Why do you think it is?

 

You insist that you "can't" make an effective swing with a straight left arm, but slice, Hoganfan, me and others think you can. If you don't want to, that's fine. But, you have provided no evidentiary support that you MUST bend your left arm in order to have an effective golf swing. You complain that you have been called "stupid". Who called you "stupid"? When? Where? Responsible forum members do not make unsubstantiated allegations.

 

That's because everyone is ignoring you. Stop being so confrontational.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='JeffMann' post='817239' date='Dec 8 2007, 08:54 PM']The yellow line roughly represents Hogan's shoulder turn, which is 90 degrees +. More importantly, look at point X - that's the position of the left humeral head. Note that Hogan can get his left humeral head [b]ahead[/b] of his shoulder turn angle, and that allows him to approximate his left arm to his chest wall. I cannot get my left arm to lie along my left chest wall - like Hogan - and the reason is that I cannot slide my left scapula forward enough. If you study photos of my swing, you will see that my left humeral head is well [b]behind[/b] the shoulder turn angle. There is approximately a 4" limitation in the forward movement of my left shoulder socket, and therefore left humeral head, and that's my problem. My left arm bends because if the left shoulder socket is too far back by about 4", then the origin (point of attachment) of the biceps muscle is further back by 4" and that pulls the left elbow into a bent position as the left arm moves further around in the direction of the right shoulder.

Therefore, when a golf instructor evaluates a student golfer for reasons why the left arm bends in the backswing, he should not only consider limitations in rotation of the upper torso around the spine - he should assess how much the scapula slides across the chest wall. If a golf instructor doesn't know how much the left scapula should slide across the chest wall, and has no method of assessing whether the amount of slide is normal/adequate, then that represents a gap in his knowledge which should be remedied.

Regarding the reason why I have a marked inability to slide my scapula across the chest wall, I think that it relates to the fact that I never played golf when I was young (which helps to stretch the muscles surrounding the scapula (shoulder girdle muscles) and I therefore have over-tight/fibrotic peri-scapular muscles. Unfortunately, I didn't do any other upper body exercises, like swimming or gym stretching exercises, during the ages 20-55. I only used to exercise my lower body - I was an avid jogger/cyclist. I am now suffering the consequences of insufficient upper body exercise-stretching during my youth and middle age. I am now trying to remedy the situation by doing peri-scapular muscle stretching exercises everyday, and I hope to see some benefit within 1-2 years.

Jeff.[/quote]

Jeff,

I gave this some more thought. There's no reason to feel embarrased about your swing. We all have swing flaws that we're trying to eliminate. Heck, I've got at least 5 of them! Helping each other is what this site is all about. I believe that for you specifically, the reason you bend the left arm is twofold.

1. You attempt to get you left arm to lay across you chest wall. In this case, I can understand why inflexibility of your left scapula would play a role in bending the arm [i][b]when swinging one handed[/b][/i]. I don't believe that doing this is necessary for a sound golf swing. To the contrary, IMO, I think it adds complexity to the swing by getting the arms out of synch and too deep relative to the body. I prefer to keep the hands more "in front" of the chest and am working on that myself as I've gotten too narrow lately. I found this overhead example from one of Slicefixer's best students very eye opening for me, really "lit the lightbulb" of my understanding. Hope it will do the same for you:
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMOI6E_X2s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMOI6E_X2s[/url]
In your case, I believe in the overhead view, your right hand is going to appear about where this players elbow is (or even slightly inside of it) at the top of the swing.
2. Because of the above concept you have of what the left arm should do, and as I stated previously, you over flex and lift the right elbow. If you were to keep the exact same right hand position in space that you have today and were able to stretch the left scapula further, your left shoulder socket would get closer to your right hand and your left arm would be bent even more than it is today. I did a little exeriment on myself to prove this.

As I suggested earlier, compare the angle of your upper left arm to that in my avatar or to some of slicefixers students. I don't think you'll find much difference. Then compare the distance from your hands to the right shoulder. That's where you'll see a big difference.

I think this narrowness of your backswing is very likely the most significant swing flaw that you have (impossible to tell without seeing you actually strike a golf ball with a real club) and you would make major strides in you swing development if you would eliminate it. I believe that it is very possible for you to do so, regardless of the degree of left scapula flexibility that you have.

Good luck in your swing development.

[Shaitan]

Those last couple of points are very good ideas, from both Jeffy and Hoganfan. If u went for a more conventional 2P backswing style and kept a 1P impact position (ie. hands in front of chest, higher hands at top of swing, etc), u do much less movement of the left shoulder muscles, as it is a steeper movement then the flatter 1P backswing and u still can eliminate and demonstrate how not to move OTT. This would be a big step towards the straightened left arm. Building on the already great spine angles and shoulder turn, and it will be a very powerful swing. Then practice with a belt or a really big elastic band around the elbows of each arm so that you stop the flying elbow motion and keep your elbows a lot closer together and more synchronised. Try it, I think u might be surprised.

Have a look at a David Toms video on youtube

[Points]

I guess I just lucky with the footage. I would continue to show other pictures but it is an obivous waste of time. According to you, I can't even draw lines correctly. Keep studying Hogan post 50. You are the expert.

[Points]

Lake,

A straight line is defined by connecting two points. When you connect two points, the angle formed is 180 degrees. Based on my earlier posts, 180 -5 equals 175 which is within the range that Chuck describes. Either way you look at it Hogan's left arm is bent in the picture which is my point. What is yours?

[jeffy]

[quote name='beruo' post='817420' date='Dec 9 2007, 12:21 AM'][quote name='jeffy' post='817415' date='Dec 8 2007, 10:12 PM']
[b]Again, I have yet to hear a logical biomechanical argument why you need to bend your left arm in order to have an effective golf swing.[/b][/quote]

That's because everyone is ignoring you. Stop being so confrontational.
[/quote]

Oh; so that's the reason. I thought it is was because JeffMann couldn't come up with any. Thanks.

[JeffMann]

Hognafan924

I certainly appreciate your attempts to make helpful suggestions.

I think that you don't understand the extent of my physical problem. First of all, I am not trying to get my left arm to lie along the chest wall - like Hogan. I simply want to get my arms/hands in front of my chest as I rotate backwards so that my left arm is approximately at a 30-45 degree angle relative to the left shoulder turn angle as seen from above (like SF's student in that overhead shot) and with my left arm near-straight. However, I cannot prevent my left arm bending if I attempt to move it across the chest so that the left arm is at a 45 degrees to the front of my chest (that is without using my right arm - I am simply attempting to place a straight left arm at a 45 degree angle to the front of my torso. I can only keep my left arm straight if it is at a >60 degrees angle relative to the chest wall. Any attempt to get my left arm slightly closer to the chest wall (eg. 45 degrees relative to the front of the torso) causes my left elbow to bend. I have no choice, because I cannot slide my left scapula forwards enough.

The second issue relates to whether the position of my right arm/elbow makes things worse. It certainly does. If you look at images of me performing a 90 degree shoulder rotation around the spine, you will see two separate problems. The first problem is that my left shoulder socket (left humeral head) is [b]behind [/b]the shoulder turn angle due to the fact that I cannot slide my left scapula forward enough. Secondly, to compound my first problem, my right shoulder socket (right humeral head) goes too far back relative to the shoulder turn angle (because my right scapula moves medially (towards my spine) too much. That aggravates my situation because it pulls my right arm/elbow, and therefore my right hand too far back relative to my left hand, which cannot get to the right hand's position. Thats' why I unconsciously/non-deliberately have a flying right elbow - by flying my right elbow I avoid pulling my right hand too far back and out of reach of my left hand which cannot get that far back. When I fly my right elbow it causes my right hand to move forward (towards the ball-target line) and also closer to my torso by about 4", and that allows my left hand to reach the right hand. Otherwise, my left hand wouldn't have any chance of getting to the right hand - because my left elbow is bent thus limiting my left arm reach.

I agree that my my backswing is too narrow. I would prefer to see my right upper arm held a little more away from my torso at the end-backswing, so that I am not cramped. However, it is impossible for me to achieve that goal, because if the right arm moves further from my body during the backswing motion, that means that my left hand has further to go to reach my right hand, and that is impossible for me to achieve due to my limiited left arm reach. I have tried to get a wider backswing endless times without success, because my left hand cannot reach that far back. As I reach back (even with my left arm at 45 degrees to the torso), my left arm bends, and that moves the left hand closer to my torso. The movement of my left hand closer to the torso pulls my right hand closer because my right hand has to move with the left hand. That's why I have a narrow backswing. I cannot prevent this phenomenon - it's definitely not a conscious choice. I would much prefer to have a straight left arm ([b]comfortably[/b] straight - not [b]rigidily[/b] straight) during the backswing with a less narrow backswing movement, but I am physically incapable of achieving that goal (despite what Jeffy implies).

Jeff.