A bag of History?

[bcstones]

This past Saturday, I went to check on 11 hickory shafted clubs, turns out there was also a pair of woods w/metal shafts, & a bag basically falling apart. The young man said his GrandMother said it was either her GrandFather or her Father (he wasn't really sure), that owned the clubs & the clubs et al have spent the half century + in her attic.

 

The irons & the putters are pretty rusty, hard to make out everything...however all the irons are named only, no numbers...except for a "Mid Iron 1" on the sole, a Spalding with a Thistle cleek mark on each side of the Spalding logo.

 

Of the 4 putters, one is an Otey Crisman 340 H but only 27" long...if this was cut down for a child, the leather grip & whipping is perfect (gotta wonder if this was custom for a child).

One putter is totally unmarked as best as I can see, w/just "Putter" on the toe of the back. 

One putter has the name of a Sporting Goods store in Kansas City (begins w/S) and a rampant lion toward the toe & a crown toward the heel.

One putter is another Plus Success Thos E Wilson Co (there is more, just can't make it out yet)

 

Of the Irons, there is a Mashie, with what looks like "Plus Success" Thos E Wilson Co Chicago. A "Piccadilly" Niblick w/no other markings.
A MacGregor (perhaps McGregor, can't quite tell) Jigger with a flower cleek mark.

A Royal mid iron.

I'm including some pics of the bag & the Spalding woods as they are the clearest to read, more or less. The bag is interesting, I tried to find out something about the logo but failed...the bag is practically in tatters, but I might know someone who might be able to use it as a pattern. Who know! It seems to have some kind of bag rest, just don't see how it works - unless the single rod fit into something on that ripped part...

 

 

 

 

the spine for the bag is a nice piece of hardwood, the "stand" is to the left & closed

 

 

the "stand is open

 

 

nice logo but no info...yet

 

 

AG Spalding wood, both say "SR 54" & #1. close to the shaft on the right is "1926" (hard to see in pic tho)

 

 

don't think either is playable w/those splits

 

 

and the faces aren't in the best of condition either

 

I didn't take pics of the shafts, both were metal & didn't look as if they had pyratone or paint on them. One had a decent leather grip w/metal butt cap & whipping that fell apart when I pulled on it. The other had electric tape in place of whipping, on the handle also.tho beneath the elec. tape, !/3 was cloth tape & the upper 2/3rds was some kind of fuzzy underlayment....

 

When I finish cleaning the irons, I'll post them here.

Edited August 28, 2023 by bcstones

[bcstones]

Finished cleaning up the Jigger & a putter, plus just showing the 27" Otey Crisman 340H putter.

 

It is a MacGregor Jigger, so I'm wondering about the "Popular B" stamping, along w/that "flower(?)" cleek mark

The putter is one made for the Schmetzlers Sporting Goods Store in Kansas City...interesting history, began as a maker of rifles for buffalo hunters in the mid-late 19th century. Reorganized to include all kinds of gear & sporting goods (advertised itself as the most interesting store to visit in KC). On the "Antique Golf Clubs from Scotland: Clubmakers" site, it says that in a 1921 interview w/Charles Schmetzler about "his passion for golf which he plays every time he has the opportunity". Elsewhere, I came across a some baseball history & this company - at a time when professional baseball was closed off to non-whites, Schmetzlers store helped, around 1915,  the "All Nations League" & sponsored a team of Black, Cuban & one Japanese player. the Schmetzler baseball team eventually became the Kansas City Monarchs (after WWI, I think). Here's a link to that story: https://lonniesjukebox.com/hot-stove-49/
Since that article about clubs from Scotland, I'm wondering which makers are represented by the rampant lion & the crown....

 

It's a beautiful club....just very very short, the leather handle is perfect, as well as the rectangular shaft & the head, bronze (I think)

 

 

I'll keep working on the other clubs & post here...next up I hope to finish by tomorrow are the two "Thos. E. Wilson" clubs

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by bcstones

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

Not Scottish, probably Burke Golf Co.

[bcstones]

3 hours ago, The Aspidistra in the Hall said:

Not Scottish, probably Burke Golf Co.

What about the cleek marks? 

 

just adding this on now, cuz I found a site w/"Scottish Cleek Marks & Dates".

It mentions the Crown mark as G Brodie Breeze of Glascow 1900-1920s and the Rampant Lion as Charles Brand of Carnoutie 1910-1920s.
If this might be true, then why would there be 2 cleek marks on the same club?

What I called a "flower" on the Jigger, could it be a rose?...so from that same link: Rose Brand & Rose as Robert Condie of St. Andrews 1890-1920s.

 

If I remember some of my golf history from this time period, late 19th & early 20th Century...weren't there a lot of Scottish clubs exported to the US until the golf manufactures here really got started?

Edited August 30, 2023 by bcstones

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

6 hours ago, bcstones said:

What about the cleek marks? 

 

just adding this on now, cuz I found a site w/"Scottish Cleek Marks & Dates".

It mentions the Crown mark as G Brodie Breeze of Glascow 1900-1920s and the Rampant Lion as Charles Brand of Carnoutie 1910-1920s.
If this might be true, then why would there be 2 cleek marks on the same club?

What I called a "flower" on the Jigger, could it be a rose?...so from that same link: Rose Brand & Rose as Robert Condie of St. Andrews 1890-1920s.

 

If I remember some of my golf history from this time period, late 19th & early 20th Century...weren't there a lot of Scottish clubs exported to the US until the golf manufactures here really got started?

I'm sorry to say that all the major American makers used these marks with some abandon. They were, it is alleged Your Honour, that the said makers believed that for marketing and sales purposes hijacking Scottish marks conferred some extra provenance upon their products.

Short story, it was as much of a con then as it is now.

[bcstones]

19 hours ago, The Aspidistra in the Hall said:

I'm sorry to say that all the major American makers used these marks with some abandon. They were, it is alleged Your Honour, that the said makers believed that for marketing and sales purposes hijacking Scottish marks conferred some extra provenance upon their products.

Short story, it was as much of a con then as it is now.

I understand what you're saying...however I wonder if you're not "painting with too wide a brush", especially w/the "hijacking" of the cleek marks.

 

I'm still working on the histories...so far, I think all but 2 irons (the MacGregor Jigger, tho maybe not, & the Otey Crisman putter) fit into the years 1915-1926. All the irons are hickory shafted & except for 1 (the Spalding mid-iron1) have the name only no numbers. 

There was also the assumption on both sides of the pond, in the early 20th century, that the best came out of Scotland (even tho there is little to substantiate that). Also, somewhere in the mid-18th century to mid-19th century (I just don't remember the exact date/year), cuz of the widespread copying/hijacking of products, there was an international agreement/law put into effect that the country of origin had to be indelibly put on all products. A cleek mark is not only an ID of the maker, it also ID's the country of origin...it occurs to me, that to copy exactly a cleek mark might just violate that aggreement/law. However, a loophole could be to make a cleek mark that is close to the original (if the original rampant lion faced to the right, a rampant lion facing to the left would not be an "exact" copy).

 

Another thing, of the big 4 golf companies (McGregor/MacGregor, Wilson, Spalding, and Hillerich & Bradbsy) 3 had factories in Scotland and England (H&B when they began, experimented with making their own heads, shafts etc for at least a year, they had little to no connection to Scotland). Even prior to setting up their factories in the UK, prior to getting the machines here in the US, those 3 did get the clubs from UK factories. And since most were "hand forged", it indicates to me that the company logo AND the cleek mark would be hand stamped. Clubheads made in the UK were sold on both sides of the pond. If I remember correctly, MacGregor clubs made in Scotland had a anvil as a cleek mark, to distinguish Scottish made from US made. So the MacGregor Jigger w/the "flower"/"rose" cleek mark...the "rose" cleek mark indicates it was made by the Robert Condie of St Andrews...that company had $$$$ problems in the late 1920s & reorganized, still in the Condie family,  in the early 1930 still with the rose cleek mark. However only it lasted only a couple of years, in late '34 everything in the company was up for sale - all manufacturing equipment, work tables, office stuff, clubs, clubheads, shafts, leather gripping material...everything.  It would be good business sense to me, if MacGregor bought up clubheads, shafts & whatever else available at prices less expensive than shipping from the US. Don't know if the clubheads would have a rose cleek mark or if blank, then couldn't MacGregor made a cleek mark similar to the original to indicate it was made in Scotland, just like the anvil cleek mark.

Don't mean to irritate you, but it just kinda sorta didn't feel right to label ALL American makers were "hijackers" & "cons".....it would not surprise me that some were, but not all. There was too much going on in the world at large & the golf world in the first couple/3 decades of the 20th century.

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

1 hour ago, bcstones said:

I understand what you're saying...however I wonder if you're not "painting with too wide a brush", especially w/the "hijacking" of the cleek marks.

 

I'm still working on the histories...so far, I think all but 2 irons (the MacGregor Jigger, tho maybe not, & the Otey Crisman putter) fit into the years 1915-1926. All the irons are hickory shafted & except for 1 (the Spalding mid-iron1) have the name only no numbers. 

There was also the assumption on both sides of the pond, in the early 20th century, that the best came out of Scotland (even tho there is little to substantiate that). Also, somewhere in the mid-18th century to mid-19th century (I just don't remember the exact date/year), cuz of the widespread copying/hijacking of products, there was an international agreement/law put into effect that the country of origin had to be indelibly put on all products. A cleek mark is not only an ID of the maker, it also ID's the country of origin...it occurs to me, that to copy exactly a cleek mark might just violate that aggreement/law. However, a loophole could be to make a cleek mark that is close to the original (if the original rampant lion faced to the right, a rampant lion facing to the left would not be an "exact" copy).

 

Another thing, of the big 4 golf companies (McGregor/MacGregor, Wilson, Spalding, and Hillerich & Bradbsy) 3 had factories in Scotland and England (H&B when they began, experimented with making their own heads, shafts etc for at least a year, they had little to no connection to Scotland). Even prior to setting up their factories in the UK, prior to getting the machines here in the US, those 3 did get the clubs from UK factories. And since most were "hand forged", it indicates to me that the company logo AND the cleek mark would be hand stamped. Clubheads made in the UK were sold on both sides of the pond. If I remember correctly, MacGregor clubs made in Scotland had a anvil as a cleek mark, to distinguish Scottish made from US made. So the MacGregor Jigger w/the "flower"/"rose" cleek mark...the "rose" cleek mark indicates it was made by the Robert Condie of St Andrews...that company had $$$$ problems in the late 1920s & reorganized, still in the Condie family,  in the early 1930 still with the rose cleek mark. However only it lasted only a couple of years, in late '34 everything in the company was up for sale - all manufacturing equipment, work tables, office stuff, clubs, clubheads, shafts, leather gripping material...everything.  It would be good business sense to me, if MacGregor bought up clubheads, shafts & whatever else available at prices less expensive than shipping from the US. Don't know if the clubheads would have a rose cleek mark or if blank, then couldn't MacGregor made a cleek mark similar to the original to indicate it was made in Scotland, just like the anvil cleek mark.

Don't mean to irritate you, but it just kinda sorta didn't feel right to label ALL American makers were "hijackers" & "cons".....it would not surprise me that some were, but not all. There was too much going on in the world at large & the golf world in the first couple/3 decades of the 20th century.

Not  irritated at all. I'll back it up.

I think we were talking about your putter initially and the dates around when that was made. The hijacking observations relate to that period. The factory openings which you refer to came much later, post WW2?

MacGregor copied the Condie Rose whichever way you cut it, this in the early days. They also changed the spelling of their name from McGregor to make it sound more Scottish. Nothing wrong with that, but it shows what was important in those early days.

The 'Rampant Lion' was used by several clubmakers in America but only by Brand in England' ref John and Mort Olman's Encyclopaedia of Golf collectibles...a cornerstone ref. book. Burke Golf copied the Crown, the Thistle and another version of the Rose, also Olman.

All these confer  that extra image of golf from the 'Old Country' from whence the game started.

Perfectly understandable, golf was in it's formative stages in America and only just taking hold, cotton hull greens below the Mason Dixon  etc. Top of the range clubs still came from Scotland, things only really started to change in the late '20s.

Setting up facories in the UK is interesting. America didn't rally start buying into the UK until after WW2 and that for tax reasons. Prior to that, trading arrangements existed where American clubs were imported into the UK as 'parts' and assembed and stamped locally. Hagen used Cochrane, Wilson used 'The St Andrew Golf Co' etc. Spalding didn't buy Forgan until after WW2, Forgan of course, owned the rights to Tom Stewart, a very attractive deal.

It happens today, this within the last ten years. The St Andrews Golf Co in Largo Ward have the UK rights to use Tom Stewart's name on their clubs. Louisville Golf had a look around their factory, noticed that the Tom Stewart mark wasn't registered in the US and immediately took US ownership of the name and caused a bit of a social storm at the time. All perfectly fair and legal, but ethical? Different views exist.

Sorry if this sort of got under your skin, but the historical marketing aspects of the Amercan golf business are factual, well understood and widely accepted.

Ethically speaking, as I continue to maintain golf marketing is no different today.

[hollabachgt]

While I won’t claim to be an expert in Macgregor Populars, I have been playing and collecting them for the past dozen years, so I’ll share with you what I know.
 

the Popular line of clubs was made starting in the mid 1910a and ran through the mid to late 1920s. During this period Macgregor was based out of and manufacturing clubs in Dayton Ohio, as listed in the oval stamp on the club. From what I can tell, prior to 1918-1919 the oval stamp did not have a border to it, so this would put this club post WW1.

 

The Popular was one of the lower model lines in the Macgregor catalog, behind clubs such as the Superior and Duralite. The rose cleek mark you see on the Jigger was primarily associated with the Popular line, with other lines having their own cleek marks. 
 

the B stamp reference the specific model variant of the Jigger. Especially in the early years, the Popular line was very deep with iron models being sold in a wide range of head shape variations. This is one of the aspects of the Popular line I like very much, you can find a head shape that fits your eye and playing needs. 
 

Around 1921-1922 Macgregor changes the manufacturing method for the Popular line, most notable of the changes was removing the hand dot punched face in favor of a mechanically pressed dashed line face. The post 1922 Populars also had much harder lines and edges to them. They also began to shrink the model variants and incorporated an club numbering system. I personally prefer the dot punched face versions of the club, they have a much better feel and heft to them. 
 

I would suspect this Jigger has a dot punched face, which would place it being made around 1918-1922 in Dayton. 

[bcstones]

@hollabachgt Thank you for the info...fyi -the Jigger has a dashed line face. You got me to thinking, so I checked a small stash of hickory shaft clubs. There's a MacGregor Driving Iron, w/that flower/rose cleek, then the word "accurate just avove an arrow & OA below it. The face is like Morris Code - dot dash dot dash etc. If you'd like to see the faces of both, I'll post the pics...

[bcstones]

22 hours ago, The Aspidistra in the Hall said:

Not  irritated at all. I'll back it up.

I think we were talking about your putter initially and the dates around when that was made. The hijacking observations relate to that period. The factory openings which you refer to came much later, post WW2?

MacGregor copied the Condie Rose whichever way you cut it, this in the early days. They also changed the spelling of their name from McGregor to make it sound more Scottish. Nothing wrong with that, but it shows what was important in those early days.

The 'Rampant Lion' was used by several clubmakers in America but only by Brand in England' ref John and Mort Olman's Encyclopaedia of Golf collectibles...a cornerstone ref. book. Burke Golf copied the Crown, the Thistle and another version of the Rose, also Olman.

All these confer  that extra image of golf from the 'Old Country' from whence the game started.

Perfectly understandable, golf was in it's formative stages in America and only just taking hold, cotton hull greens below the Mason Dixon  etc. Top of the range clubs still came from Scotland, things only really started to change in the late '20s.

Setting up facories in the UK is interesting. America didn't rally start buying into the UK until after WW2 and that for tax reasons. Prior to that, trading arrangements existed where American clubs were imported into the UK as 'parts' and assembed and stamped locally. Hagen used Cochrane, Wilson used 'The St Andrew Golf Co' etc. Spalding didn't buy Forgan until after WW2, Forgan of course, owned the rights to Tom Stewart, a very attractive deal.

It happens today, this within the last ten years. The St Andrews Golf Co in Largo Ward have the UK rights to use Tom Stewart's name on their clubs. Louisville Golf had a look around their factory, noticed that the Tom Stewart mark wasn't registered in the US and immediately took US ownership of the name and caused a bit of a social storm at the time. All perfectly fair and legal, but ethical? Different views exist.

Sorry if this sort of got under your skin, but the historical marketing aspects of the Amercan golf business are factual, well understood and widely accepted.

Ethically speaking, as I continue to maintain golf marketing is no different today.

I'm glad I didn't offend/irritate...I just have questions. I do find some interesting sites, like "Antique Golf Clubs from Scotland" based in Scotland, lots of info on history & makers and more...the setting up of factories did occur prior to WWI, at least by Spalding cuz around 1900 they opened retail stores in England & shortly realized it would be cheaper to make the golf, tennis & football (rugby?) parapheralia in the UK than shipping from US. Spalding opened 2 factories in the early years of 20th century. I didn't mean that Wilson & MacGregor also opened factories prior to 1926, just that they had exposure in Scotland to golf w/makers & some kind of agreements early on for clubheads (after all the hickory shafts came from the US since somewhere in the 19th century)...until the US factories got going. Interestingly, to me at least, is that awhile back I bought, in a flea market, 5 hickory shafted clubs cuz I saw a rut iron (I have no idea if it's a replica or original - no markings, blackened like a smithy made club), in that 5 is a St Andrews Golf Co made Robert T Jones Jr putter, obviously new but nice. 

I also came across a possible story about the change from McGregor to MacGregor.....involves a bit of social standings in early 20th century. John McGregor was a Scot & became partner w/Crawford & Canby in their sports endevor, especially golf. the "Mc" was used by both Scots & Irish, while "Mac" was Scottish only. Around the beginning of the 1900s, being Irish in the US meant you were riff-raff, from the wrong side of the tracks, many business put up signs of "No Irish", "Hiring - no Irish need apply" and others. With competition from the likes of Scottish club makers like Forgan &/or Nicoll, and really not wishing to have a less than the best label on their clubs. John McGregor officially changed his name from McGregor to MacGregor keeping emphasis on his Scottish heritage, when that happened it changed the logo. Yeah, for market value but perhaps also personal. 

gotta thank you for adding another book to my want list....what fun!

Edited September 1, 2023 by bcstones

[hollabachgt]

13 hours ago, bcstones said:

@hollabachgt Thank you for the info...fyi -the Jigger has a dashed line face. You got me to thinking, so I checked a small stash of hickory shaft clubs. There's a MacGregor Driving Iron, w/that flower/rose cleek, then the word "accurate just avove an arrow & OA below it. The face is like Morris Code - dot dash dot dash etc. If you'd like to see the faces of both, I'll post the pics...

the OAs were part of the popular line, you’ll find some versions of the flanged OAs that do not say accurate and are just stamped popular. The Morse code face was standard on the early OAs.

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

13 hours ago, bcstones said:

I'm glad I didn't offend/irritate...I just have questions. I do find some interesting sites, like "Antique Golf Clubs from Scotland" based in Scotland, lots of info on history & makers and more...the setting up of factories did occur prior to WWI, at least by Spalding cuz around 1900 they opened retail stores in England & shortly realized it would be cheaper to make the golf, tennis & football (rugby?) parapheralia in the UK than shipping from US. Spalding opened 2 factories in the early years of 20th century. I didn't mean that Wilson & MacGregor also opened factories prior to 1926, just that they had exposure in Scotland to golf w/makers & some kind of agreements early on for clubheads (after all the hickory shafts came from the US since somewhere in the 19th century)...until the US factories got going. Interestingly, to me at least, is that awhile back I bought, in a flea market, 5 hickory shafted clubs cuz I saw a rut iron (I have no idea if it's a replica or original - no markings, blackened like a smithy made club), in that 5 is a St Andrews Golf Co made Robert T Jones Jr putter, obviously new but nice. 

I also came across a possible story about the change from McGregor to MacGregor.....involves a bit of social standings in early 20th century. John McGregor was a Scot & became partner w/Crawford & Canby in their sports endevor, especially golf. the "Mc" was used by both Scots & Irish, while "Mac" was Scottish only. Around the beginning of the 1900s, being Irish in the US meant you were riff-raff, from the wrong side of the tracks, many business put up signs of "No Irish", "Hiring - no Irish need apply" and others. With competition from the likes of Scottish club makers like Forgan &/or Nicoll, and really not wishing to have a less than the best label on their clubs. John McGregor officially changed his name from McGregor to MacGregor keeping emphasis on his Scottish heritage, when that happened it changed the logo. Yeah, for market value but perhaps also personal. 

gotta thank you for adding another book to my want list....what fun!

I was lucky in the respect that I started in 1995 and was able to access material for research on the primordial Internet unrestricted. thus I didn't need books other than Olman and Collecting Old Golfing Clubs by Alick Watt. The latter has a first hand account of how hickories were made and assembled, never mind how to 'spot a fake'.

The best resource I found for accounts of very early golf in the US and It's wildfire spread across the continent was to be found in the American magazine 'Outing' at that time resourced via a Philadelphia on-line library with no restrictions. Wikipaedia has a page on Outing and there is another page stating where Outing Archive can be accessed. It's a very compulsive rabbit hole, be warned.

[bcstones]

5 hours ago, The Aspidistra in the Hall said:

I was lucky in the respect that I started in 1995 and was able to access material for research on the primordial Internet unrestricted. thus I didn't need books other than Olman and Collecting Old Golfing Clubs by Alick Watt. The latter has a first hand account of how hickories were made and assembled, never mind how to 'spot a fake'.

The best resource I found for accounts of very early golf in the US and It's wildfire spread across the continent was to be found in the American magazine 'Outing' at that time resourced via a Philadelphia on-line library with no restrictions. Wikipaedia has a page on Outing and there is another page stating where Outing Archive can be accessed. It's a very compulsive rabbit hole, be warned.

Yikes! "Outing"....I could forget to eat while perushing this site (an hour went by before I looked away from the screen)...I have absolutely no trust for accuracy in that wiki-thingy. Did find the Archive for "Outing" tho, seems alot of universities offer the magazine on line (mostly Cornell, Minnesota, Michigan, & Northwestern). 

[bcstones]

Finished cleaning these clubs - a niclick, mashie, & putter..

I have no idea what the term "Piccadilly" means in reference to gold clubs, have seen a number on line but almost always w/some maker's logo or cleek mark - this has neither. Any ideas?

 

Thos. E. Wilson Co Chicago...Thomas E. Wilson took over a meat-packing concern & it's subsidary, Ashland Manfacturing, after it went into receivership (company was called "Wilson" by the court,  not cuz of him, but to honor the new President - Woodrow Wilson"). The name of the company from 1915 to ~ 1926 as Thos. E. Wilson C. Eventually, the meat packing was dropped & the manfacturing side continued.

Looking at these two clubs had two different back stampings. I'd figure the mashie to be the earlier, cuz of the partial dot pattern, than the putter.

Anyway, both the niblick's & the mashie's hickory shaft show splits at the hosel. I'm guessing makes them unplayable at the moment....any suggestions?

 

 

Hard to see the "Piccadilly" in the middle, but it's there....as well as the barely distinguishable "niblick"

The Sucess line of clubs were popular in their days. 

 

 

Interesting mashie dot punch pattern.....

 

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by bcstones

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

1 hour ago, bcstones said:

Finished cleaning these clubs - a niclick, mashie, & putter..

I have no idea what the term "Piccadilly" means in reference to gold clubs, have seen a number on line but almost always w/some maker's logo or cleek mark - this has neither. Any ideas?

 

Thos. E. Wilson Co Chicago...Thomas E. Wilson took over a meat-packing concern & it's subsidary, Ashland Manfacturing, after it went into receivership (company was called "Wilson" by the court,  not cuz of him, but to honor the new President - Woodrow Wilson"). The name of the company from 1915 to ~ 1926 as Thos. E. Wilson C. Eventually, the meat packing was dropped & the manfacturing side continued.

Looking at these two clubs had two different back stampings. I'd figure the mashie to be the earlier, cuz of the partial dot pattern, than the putter.

Anyway, both the niblick's & the mashie's hickory shaft show splits at the hosel. I'm guessing makes them unplayable at the moment....any suggestions?

 

 

Hard to see the "Piccadilly" in the middle, but it's there....as well as the barely distinguishable "niblick"

The Sucess line of clubs were popular in their days. 

 

 

Interesting mashie dot punch pattern.....

 

 

Same deal I suppose. Piccadilly was a posh area in the Smoke close by Mayfair, especially in those early years.

[bcstones]

14 minutes ago, The Aspidistra in the Hall said:

 Piccadilly was a posh area in the Smoke close by Mayfair, especially in those early years.

Could you please translate for a wee English (?) speaking US body.

[darkhelmet]

Didn't see if you got any info on the bag -- you can do a patent search on the listed number there and see what comes up.  Somebody had a similar post a while back and I was able to get her some information on the bag maker.  But your picture is too blurry and I can't make out the patent numbers. 

 

Easy enough to do, though.  Just take a clearer picture that you can zoom in on and go to a patent search website to enter the numbers.

[bcstones]

12 minutes ago, darkhelmet said:

Didn't see if you got any info on the bag -- you can do a patent search on the listed number there and see what comes up.  Somebody had a similar post a while back and I was able to get her some information on the bag maker.  But your picture is too blurry and I can't make out the patent numbers. 

 

Easy enough to do, though.  Just take a clearer picture that you can zoom in on and go to a patent search website to enter the numbers.

that is a blowup of a clear picture....comes up the same when I've retaken it, can't seem to get it more clear.  I can make out all but one number - 2364_23...however, it can only be one of 10 numbers (0 thru 9) so I can try 10 times.Thanks for the suggestion about patent search.

[bcstones]

@darkhelmet Fantastic suggestion! Thank you.....I guessed the missing number to be a "2", to make the patent #2364223 & this turned up:

here is the link: https://image-ppubs.uspto.gov/dirsearch-public/print/downloadPdf/2364223

 

Tho it does not explain that "T" thingy....got me stumped 🤣

Edited September 5, 2023 by bcstones

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

10 hours ago, bcstones said:

Could you please translate for a wee English (?) speaking US body.

'Port outward, starboard home' were the preferred cabins for well heeled folk making a return trip to America on Cunard. Thus 'posh'.

Is 'Smoke'a problem? It's London. Like Windy City etc.

Picadilly and Mayfair , very high end tourist district destinations in London, best shops, hotels, architecture and sights. Bomb craters in the old days, lol.

[bcstones]

5 hours ago, The Aspidistra in the Hall said:

'Port outward, starboard home' were the preferred cabins for well heeled folk making a return trip to America on Cunard. Thus 'posh'.

Is 'Smoke'a problem? It's London. Like Windy City etc.

Picadilly and Mayfair , very high end tourist district destinations in London, best shops, hotels, architecture and sights. Bomb craters in the old days, lol.

I did look up the name, interesting history…but it’s connection to golf is what is puzzling me - unless it’s supposed to indicate a high end line? Or, for that matter, a retail line that is desired the PR of high end? Or just another US maker implying a UK connection?

Edited September 6, 2023 by bcstones

[hollabachgt]

23 hours ago, bcstones said:

I did look up the name, interesting history…but it’s connection to golf is what is puzzling me - unless it’s supposed to indicate a high end line? Or, for that matter, a retail line that is desired the PR of high end? Or just another US maker implying a UK connection?

Picadilly would have the same connotation as the use of Newport, Laguna, Napa in modern day clubs. Just marketing.

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

7 minutes ago, hollabachgt said:

Picadilly would have the same connotation as the use of Newport, Laguna, Napa in modern day clubs. Just marketing.

Spot on, you would not expect to see high value clubs for an aspirational sport like golf marked 'Bronx', 'Wapping' or 'Gorballs'.

Edited September 7, 2023 by The Aspidistra in the Hall

[bcstones]

14 minutes ago, The Aspidistra in the Hall said:

Spot on, you would not expect to see high value clubs for an aspirational sport like golf marked 'Bronx', 'Wapping' or 'Gorballs'.

I’d buy a set of Bronx clubs….not too sure about Gorballs tho 🤣

 

ok, again - gotta ask “What are ‘Gorballs’”?

[hollabachgt]

10 minutes ago, bcstones said:

I’d buy a set of Bronx clubs….not too sure about Gorballs tho 🤣

 

ok, again - gotta ask “What are ‘Gorballs’”?

 

sigh...this really is not that hard

[bcstones]

@hollabachgt sure, it’s easy to immediately go to physical anatomy, however - could it have anything to do w/golf history, or another sport like cricket, rugby, baseball, hockey, football/soccer, curling (‘bout the only thing I am sure of is it’s got nothing to do with Irish Hurling or Gaelic Football).

So I asked…

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

8 hours ago, bcstones said:

I’d buy a set of Bronx clubs….not too sure about Gorballs tho 🤣

 

ok, again - gotta ask “What are ‘Gorballs’”?

The Gorballs was a tenement district of Glasgow famed for it's gang culture and the 'Gorballs Diehards' and all that. Could have offered you Tiger Bay in Cardiff. Both places remain only in myth and legend.

Edited September 7, 2023 by The Aspidistra in the Hall

[bcstones]

Finally got the last 3 clubs from the bag cleaned up....top to bottom - Spalding mid-iron!, Royal mid-iron, (no name) putter....buggers, forgot to get a pic of the soles - hmmm, the putter & Royal have nothing on the sole & the Spalding has "mid-iron1" on the sole.

Question - why would the number "1" be on a mid-iron? I thought a "1" iron was either a driving iron or a long iron or ?????  Hmmm...the loft on it is ~20*, so I guess it could be a driving iron....wonder if that was a common stamping?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by bcstones

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

The only thought I have is that makers often had nos 1 & 2 Mashie with different lofts or profiles. Maybe these people had a Nos 1 & 2Mid-Irons. It's pretty sketchy and I've never heard of it before, but it's the best I've got.

 

1 irons and driving irons were pretty established so there would be no need to confuse the buying public with a mid-iron you were selling as a 1 iron.

[bcstones]

@The Aspidistra in the Hall Thanks....also for the chuckle. Got another question, you might be able to answer - What is a "putting cleek"? (& I think I've come across a "putting jigger", tho that could also have been a dream 😂)