How would you play this dogleg?

[Sean124]

4 hours ago, Louis_Posture said:

Yes, 3-shot par 5 holes are common and within traditional golf course hole design, but 3-shot par 4 holes are not.

But it’s not a 3 shot hole.
 

OP routinely talks about his course playing 7000 from the tips. If you’re gonna play from 7000, you get holes like this occasionally. You either hit a good drive, or you play for bogey. 

[Louis_Posture]

6 minutes ago, Sean124 said:

But it’s not a 3 shot hole.
 

OP routinely talks about his course playing 7000 from the tips. If you’re gonna play from 7000, you get holes like this occasionally. You either hit a good drive, or you play for bogey. 

 

In my home state of California, Riviera CC, Torrey Pines, Spyglass Hill, Pebble Beach, Olympic Club, Harding Park all host Tour events and none have par 4 dogleg holes demanding more than a 220 yard tee shot to have a clear line of play second shot.

Traditional course design is usually the longest par 4's are straight holes, some long par 4's have a soft dogleg shape , and the sharpest corner-severe dogleg shape holes are typically very short yardage holes 

[RoyalMustang]

On 10/14/2023 at 10:53 AM, Louis_Posture said:

 

In my home state of California, Riviera CC, Torrey Pines, Spyglass Hill, Pebble Beach, Olympic Club, Harding Park all host Tour events and none have par 4 dogleg holes demanding more than a 220 yard tee shot to have a clear line of play second shot.

Traditional course design is usually the longest par 4's are straight holes, some long par 4's have a soft dogleg shape , and the sharpest corner-severe dogleg shape holes are typically very short yardage holes 

 

That's why, for me, it's the toughest hole on the course! 

 

The upside is that the last 3 times I have played it, I've hit a good 3-wood and left myself between 125 and 95 to the pin. It's still tough to get the ball to actually check up on that green, but I've been very close all 3 times and gotten up and down for par. The green slopes away front to back but if you go long, you have a nice uphill chip to work with and can often save. 

 

From the regular men's tees it's only 345, which is a 220 carry like you describe or 250 if you want to be more aggressive. You have a bigger landing area to hit hybrid as you can cut the corner and go over the trees w/o risk of a strong draw ending up in the hazard.  

 

Really, the answer here is to "hit a very good 3-wood". Do that and you'll be in solid shape.  

[RoyalMustang]

On 10/12/2023 at 2:03 AM, ProV1Killa said:

I would hit driver into the dogleg.  Play the ball slightly further back in your stance and a low center strike to spin the ball more than usual.  Should take 10 to 15 off normal carry, minimize roll out, and ball back encourages a slight draw.  

 

Thanks. I worked on that at the range last night; it was very consistent and a bit like my knockdown gap wedge that I rely on for 80-120 shots. My carry was much shorter as I was trying to take something off, which is what I need here. Enough height to get over the trees if I push it left a bit and enough spin so that I don't send it through the fairway. 

 

I've hit the "A position" in my last 3 rounds with the 3-wood, but that's because I'm making better swings and minimizing early extension after getting some advice here. Still, I'm a lot more confident with the driver these days than the 3-wood. 

[Louis_Posture]

2 minutes ago, RoyalMustang said:

 

 

 

Really, the answer here is to "hit a very good 3-wood". Do that and you'll be in solid shape.  

That's fine for the players who can hit a 3-wood 260 yards, which is less than 1% of the people playing golf. There are lots of Tour players who don't hit their 3-wood that far.

[SNIPERBBB]

3 hours ago, Louis_Posture said:

That's fine for the players who can hit a 3-wood 260 yards, which is less than 1% of the people playing golf. There are lots of Tour players who don't hit their 3-wood that far.

Are we talking about the LPGA/LET? 

[Louis_Posture]

20 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Are we talking about the LPGA/LET? 

PGA Tour.

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

3 hours ago, Louis_Posture said:

That's fine for the players who can hit a 3-wood 260 yards, which is less than 1% of the people playing golf.

Then they (and me) should be playing from closer tees.  No biggie. On your one of your previous posts about must carry doglegs on California courses, 3 at Pebble comes to mind as a nasty one.  Especially with the frequent left to right wind from the ocean.  But again, if the required carry is too much, move up.

 

For OP's hole, I still don't think long and a touch right is all that bad.  But if per OP, 90-125 is causing issues with holding the green, 145-160 from rough is not going to be fun.

[SNIPERBBB]

1 hour ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

Then they (and me) should be playing from closer tees.  No biggie. On your one of your previous posts about must carry doglegs on California courses, 3 at Pebble comes to mind as a nasty one.  Especially with the frequent left to right wind from the ocean.  But again, if the required carry is too much, move up.

 

For OP's hole, I still don't think long and a touch right is all that bad.  But if per OP, 90-125 is causing issues with holding the green, 145-160 from rough is not going to be fun.

Yep, most guys aren't going to be playing the tips unless they're clueless o a competition golfer and most events play from the back.  I don't have time or money to play in higher level tournaments so only play the back tees 2 weekends a year for two tournaments. 

 

Maybe there's a  odd pro that can't carry 260 with a 3w but I don't think there's a pro in his prime that can't roll it out to 260 in normal conditions. 

[Louis_Posture]

1 hour ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

Then they (and me) should be playing from closer tees.  No biggie. On your one of your previous posts about must carry doglegs on California courses, 3 at Pebble comes to mind as a nasty one.  Especially with the frequent left to right wind from the ocean.  But again, if the required carry is too much, move up.

 

For OP's hole, I still don't think long and a touch right is all that bad.  But if per OP, 90-125 is causing issues with holding the green, 145-160 from rough is not going to be fun.

From the 3rd hole back tee blocks at Pebble Beach GC one can strike a 190 yard tee shot and have a clear line of play to the green.

My point is that professional golf course architects do not design dog leg par 4 holes where a 260 yard tee shot would be needed to have a clear line of play second shot. For example no Major or other Tour event has ever included such a hole. The longest I've seen is a required 220 yard tee shot to reach the corner of a par 4 dogleg hole.

All that said, the world has thousands of golf courses, including some designed by amateurs without regard for conventional course design principles.

[SNIPERBBB]

20 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

From the 3rd hole back tee blocks at Pebble Beach GC one can strike a 190 yard tee shot and have a clear line of play to the green.

My point is that professional golf course architects do not design dog leg par 4 holes where a 260 yard tee shot would be needed to have a clear line of play second shot. For example no Major or other Tour event has ever included such a hole. The longest I've seen is a required 220 yard tee shot to reach the corner of a par 4 dogleg hole.

All that said, the world has thousands of golf courses, including some designed by amateurs without regard for conventional course design principles.

A lot of courses are constrained by property or money. Courses that are on any Tour or Major ROTA are little more than tax losses for the owners or owned by membership that has piles of money to burn.  Yeah there are are a lot of courses where the architect was on a bender when they designed or were designed by sadists. You can move a lot of dirt or you can tinker with what the land already gave you.

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

2 hours ago, Louis_Posture said:

From the 3rd hole back tee blocks at Pebble Beach GC one can strike a 190 yard tee shot and have a clear line of play to the green.

My point is that professional golf course architects do not design dog leg par 4 holes where a 260 yard tee shot would be needed to have a clear line of play second shot. For example no Major or other Tour event has ever included such a hole. The longest I've seen is a required 220 yard tee shot to reach the corner of a par 4 dogleg hole.

All that said, the world has thousands of golf courses, including some designed by amateurs without regard for conventional course design principles.

I recommend taking a look at that hole again.  The book I'm looking at, it's a 215 carry to get to short grass from the back, and in practice, everyone who has business playing from the back tees is trying to draw or hook it around the corner and over the ravine/barranca. 

 

("Barranca", lol.  A "barranca" is a ditch, when it isn't on a white-shoes golf course.  But I digress.)

 

They're doing it because it's otherwise a blind approach to a narrow front to back green, usually into a hefty wind.  Closer is most definitely better than further then. 

 

FWIW, I share your distaste for those artificial-feeling kind of holes, like that in the OP.  Hit it here!  Now hit it there!  Not much artistry needed.

 

 

[Louis_Posture]

2 hours ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

I recommend taking a look at that hole again.  The book I'm looking at, it's a 215 carry to get to short grass from the back, and in practice, everyone who has business playing from the back tees is trying to draw or hook it around the corner and over the ravine/barranca. 

 

("Barranca", lol.  A "barranca" is a ditch, when it isn't on a white-shoes golf course.  But I digress.)

 

They're doing it because it's otherwise a blind approach to a narrow front to back green, usually into a hefty wind.  Closer is most definitely better than further then. 

 

FWIW, I share your distaste for those artificial-feeling kind of holes, like that in the OP.  Hit it here!  Now hit it there!  Not much artistry needed.

 

 

I've played Pebble and been a spectator on the course watching Tour pros play the course during the old Crosby, AT&T, and three US Opens. The 3rd hole at Pebble has  no 'blind approach'. It's a relatively easy straight away down slope tee shot to a fairly wide landing area. 

As for strategy, some Tour pros try to cut corner a bit and others play straight away,  nearly all of them swing a fairway wood. For the past several years Jordan Speith's has played with country singer Jake Owen as his amateur partner. Owen is an idiot who endangers spectators, caddies, and players by trying to drive the green and pulling his ball  left into the bottleneck that is the 4th tee box, 17th tee box, and 3rd green.

[Nickb333]

On 10/6/2023 at 12:27 PM, Fuscinator said:

7w to the right side, 7w to the green.

Pretty sure Arccos would have given me this advice if I were still using it. 

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

11 hours ago, Louis_Posture said:

I've played Pebble and been a spectator on the course watching Tour pros play the course during the old Crosby, AT&T, and three US Opens. The 3rd hole at Pebble has  no 'blind approach'. It's a relatively easy straight away down slope tee shot to a fairly wide landing area. 

As for strategy, some Tour pros try to cut corner a bit and others play straight away,  nearly all of them swing a fairway wood. For the past several years Jordan Speith's has played with country singer Jake Owen as his amateur partner. Owen is an idiot who endangers spectators, caddies, and players by trying to drive the green and pulling his ball  left into the bottleneck that is the 4th tee box, 17th tee box, and 3rd green.

You can't see the 3rd green from the right (as viewed from the tee) side of the fairway.  The side of the fairway you're stuck with if you can't draw the ball around the corner.  There's mounding in the way between you and the green.  Maybe you can see the top of the flag?

 

Whatever.  I'm done with this.

[Sean124]

Debating the design and fairness of this hole is ridiculous. It exists. A similar hole exists on my home course. So the only question is how do we play it?
 

You can throw in the towel and hit 5 iron off the tee, or you can play it properly. If you can’t hit a modern 3 wood 250-260, you probably shouldn’t be playing from 7000 yards. 

[RoyalMustang]

19 hours ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

Then they (and me) should be playing from closer tees.  No biggie. On your one of your previous posts about must carry doglegs on California courses, 3 at Pebble comes to mind as a nasty one.  Especially with the frequent left to right wind from the ocean.  But again, if the required carry is too much, move up.

 

For OP's hole, I still don't think long and a touch right is all that bad.  But if per OP, 90-125 is causing issues with holding the green, 145-160 from rough is not going to be fun.

Yeah, it definitely isn't. I have gotten there from being way right, 180 to the pin, but the ball doesn't hold. I just hope to be close and in position to save par. 

 

The greens are running at 11 right now; just not a lot of bite when you need the ball to stop on a downhill. 

[RoyalMustang]

26 minutes ago, Sean124 said:

Debating the design and fairness of this hole is ridiculous. It exists. A similar hole exists on my home course. So the only question is how do we play it?
 

You can throw in the towel and hit 5 iron off the tee, or you can play it properly. If you can’t hit a modern 3 wood 250-260, you probably shouldn’t be playing from 7000 yards. 

 

Exactly. Our course guideline for tips is that you can consistently get out past 275 with your driver. You could hit driver here but anyone with 110+ SS, of which there are plenty, will need to hit 3/4W as the rollout on this fairway is long. The other day I hit the perfect draw on the aggressive line and almost went through the fairway, 75 yards out. If I was 275 with my driver, I'd just hit that. 

 

This is the hole where if you can hit a small window and shape that 3W consistently, you have a stroke on virtually everyone else. Or essentially the difference between a scratch/plus cap and a low single cap like myself.  

 

It's surprising that this post created so much "controversy"! 

Edited October 18, 2023 by RoyalMustang

[Dan_Woden]

On 10/6/2023 at 7:30 PM, getitdaily said:

Cut 3w to the right side.

This. Cut 3 wood off the trees on the left. Which takes out the tree issue and widens your approach angle to green.  If it doesn't cut you're in prime position. If it does fade too much - club-up on your approach (and thereby eliminate the water hazard); if you stripe it you've got a pretty simple up-and-down for par, if you don't quite catch it you'll be on the green..

[ChaosTheory]

For the record, I birdied this hole the last time out!

 

From the white tees, though. 

 

Yeah, this hole is a butt kicker for everyone.   Can't tell you how many "others" I've made even after a decent drive.

 

The old timers tell me:  When it first opened, the elevated green was sloped back to front to better receive shots.  Short misses often rolled back down into the creek. Anything over the green required a chip or flop that might run down the green... into the creek.  To top it off, it was a yellow hazard as well, so people who had just chipped down into the creek either had to replay with stroke and distance, or go back across the bridge to the other side of the creek.   For pace of play, or maybe to prevent gun play, they added the current stone wall that rises from the creek bed up to a few feet below the green, with a flatter slope in front of the green, so anything that clears the wall will stay up.  But they re-contoured the green so that much of it slopes to the back.    Super hard to hold. 

 

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Snowman9000