Luke Donalds

[hoganfan924]

True Slice, but these guys can't even get the theory part right. Start off with a faulty theory and have fun with the application!

 

I can do it, I suppose the application works for me

 

I'm referring to the theory that "braking" will increase clubhead speed, which you guys were advocating for in the "kinetic chain" thread. That part is faulty.

[Machinegolfer]

how bout the game you played as a kid when you all held hands and ran around in a circle and when the first kid stopped and so on and so on to the last kid...what happened to him....he ended up in Guam... creates torque...more so then if the pivots just had continuous acceleration

[slicefixer]

hehehe.........Machine, where you guy's are REALLY in error is this, WHY would you want to TRY and control the clubface when you don't have to? And it's OBVIOUS in the swings of Bennet and the other guy's that you guy's post that is exactly what they are doing........that's why they have the "unfinished" look to their "finish"........NOW, you can certainly swing that way and get great results, especially with the short and mid irons, but, when you get to that driver, UNDER PRESSURE, you'd better be able to just "have a go" and NOT worry about accuracy or "controlling ANYthing"....... :rolleyes: But, I'm from the "Burke School" in that you'd better be able to swing that driver with a bit of "reckless abandon" or your DEAD over the long haul........face rotation, whether your trying to stop it or enhance it, is DEADLY under the gun.......IMOP..... :cheesy: PLUS, you do it correctly and PHYSICS will sling that clubface from parallel to the ARC to square to RELEASED without YOU doing a damn thing.........ya' just gotta' know how........that's it......IMOP... :D

 

LOL........I guess that was you that called this afternoon and I lost ya'........will do tomorrow........

 

Cz its about hitting different shots, i use braking to change the angle of approach of the right forearm and to decrease the right wrist bend, to teach pivot lag... braking is just about creating torque....we could talk endless belt effect, we could talk Jorgensen's Kinetic energies...torque I personally just dont care... it does this..you can call it what you deem necessary :)

 

 

But Machine, you CAN hit all the shots with the same basic pivot/golf swing and NOT have to worry about braking anything.......I KNOW this to be true 100%.......that's what I don't "get".......why would you want to be forced into learning more than ONE swing to hit a wide variety of shots........NOW, learning some specialty shots where you might "brake" without realizing your "braking" is almost a necessity, but, to try and "brake and snap" ANYthing just doesn't make sense to me........both as a former player and now as a teacher.......UNDER PRESSURE you'd better be able to "dial it in and have a go"......you THINK to much and your dead over the long haul.........one day/one tournament, even one year, ok, but lose the timing/feeling and your in big trouble.........IMOP.......

 

cz you dont play golf with ONE swing....you play golf with many swings to be versatile and hit different shots... my golf swing for a high draw is not the same as my golf swing for a low cut...PERIOD....some will say i'm wrong thats ok...and i CAN do it under pressure... mostly becuase I know what i'm able to do, what im not able to do, and play within myself...everyone can too, golf is not as simple as everyone would wish it to be

 

 

Machine, I'm not going to get into a pissin' contest.........I could, but, I won't........if you can do those things then good for you......but you can hit all the shots with basically the same pivot.......the set up changes, but, the basic pivot doesn't.........and that's a fact........I KNOW it to be true........but, apparantly you don't........and that's that........no harm no foul........:rolleyes:

[Machinegolfer]

No, no pissin' contest needed....

[slicefixer]

No, no pissin' contest needed....

 

 

My friend, it's simply NOT worth it.........your obviously a fine player and teacher.......and I'm truly happy for you as that's a hell of an accomplishment to be such a young man.........and you've got as much PASSION for golf as just about anybody I've ever seen, no matter their age........in fact, you remind me OF me when I was younger........I only WISH I'd had access to the video and "type" of instructors/instruction that your generation does when I was still a young player........wrong place at the wrong time........just tha' way it is.......but, YOU have an opportunity to do something that's NEVER been done and that is be a GREAT PLAYER and a GREAT TEACHER all at the same time..........and it CAN be done IMOP.......just because it ain't been done yet doesn't mean YOUR not going to be the guy to do it! And I mean that 100%.......(IF lake doesn't beat ya' to it :rolleyes:)..... :)

[Machinegolfer]

No, no pissin' contest needed....

 

 

My friend, it's simply NOT worth it.........your obviously a fine player and teacher.......and I'm truly happy for you as that's a hell of an accomplishment to be such a young man.........and you've got as much PASSION for golf as just about anybody I've ever seen, no matter their age........in fact, you remind me OF me when I was younger........I only WISH I'd had access to the video and "type" of instructors/instruction that your generation does when I was still a young player........wrong place at the wrong time........just tha' way it is.......but, YOU have an opportunity to do something that's NEVER been done and that is be a GREAT PLAYER and a GREAT TEACHER all at the same time..........and it CAN be done IMOP.......just because it ain't been done yet doesn't mean YOUR not going to be the guy to do it! And I mean that 100%......... :)

 

I appreciate the kind words, not so sure how my playing days will go when these courses continue to get longer and longer, but my interest is in teaching and developing players abilities...nice to be here and continue to get some fresh information from you guys

[slicefixer]

No, no pissin' contest needed....

 

 

My friend, it's simply NOT worth it.........your obviously a fine player and teacher.......and I'm truly happy for you as that's a hell of an accomplishment to be such a young man.........and you've got as much PASSION for golf as just about anybody I've ever seen, no matter their age........in fact, you remind me OF me when I was younger........I only WISH I'd had access to the video and "type" of instructors/instruction that your generation does when I was still a young player........wrong place at the wrong time........just tha' way it is.......but, YOU have an opportunity to do something that's NEVER been done and that is be a GREAT PLAYER and a GREAT TEACHER all at the same time..........and it CAN be done IMOP.......just because it ain't been done yet doesn't mean YOUR not going to be the guy to do it! And I mean that 100%......... :)

 

I appreciate the kind words, not so sure how my playing days will go when these courses continue to get longer and longer, but my interest is in teaching and developing players abilities...nice to be here and continue to get some fresh information from you guys

 

 

Well, I mean it 100%........you've got a boat load of passion and, if directed correctly, you CAN do both.......IMOP.......at least I think I could have IF I'd been born into this generation........but I wasn't so my day has come and gone..........but yours is just beginning........so get after it.......and keep the passion as it's the most important aspect of becoming great at anything IMOP.......you can have all the knowledge/talent, etc in the world, but, without passion it doesn't mean much........ :rolleyes: (and "they'll" line up to tell ya' you can't do it.......screw em'........ya' can! )

[ej002]

how bout the game you played as a kid when you all held hands and ran around in a circle and when the first kid stopped and so on and so on to the last kid...what happened to him....he ended up in Guam... creates torque...more so then if the pivots just had continuous acceleration

 

 

We do the same thing up here, on ice. The line of people skates and the first person TURNS, continues to skate in a turn, and the end of the line gets PULLED way OUT, could never make that tight of a turn, the inside PULLS the outside out. The last person still ends up in Guam, and nobody stopped or snapped the kinetic chain. Sme idea, but the engine never stops.

[ej002]

Slice, when you say the face stays parallel to the arc on the downswing and rapidly shuts, in reality, how long do you suppose the face remains parallel to the arc on the downswing? Is it still parallel after hip high? Further? Earlier?

 

(maybe this is off topic)

[birdie_man]

"Snapping the kinetic chain"......

 

Is it a "way" to swing..........?

 

Hmmm.....I'm not so sure.

 

Does it influence the plane line? Does the plane line influence it? In what way(s)?

 

I haven't read all this thread but I think pretty well anyone who can create any real speed must break their pivot some.

 

Including Hogan, Byrd, Immelman, Snead, Toms, CHIII, and any other guys whose swings people like or swings that are in the "swings left nicely" group.

 

You can only thrust your hips so far. (before they "run out of steam"/run out of "travel")

 

Myself, I don't even really have much research to prove my position.

 

Please do correct me if you think I am wrong. (I very well could be)

[Machinegolfer]

how bout the game you played as a kid when you all held hands and ran around in a circle and when the first kid stopped and so on and so on to the last kid...what happened to him....he ended up in Guam... creates torque...more so then if the pivots just had continuous acceleration

 

 

We do the same thing up here, on ice. The line of people skates and the first person TURNS, continues to skate in a turn, and the end of the line gets PULLED way OUT, could never make that tight of a turn, the inside PULLS the outside out. The last person still ends up in Guam, and nobody stopped or snapped the kinetic chain. Sme idea, but the engine never stops.

 

Different scenario... your not snapping the kinetic chain..." During the stroke, succesive parts of the whip are stopped and the kinetic energy of these parts is fed into the succesively smaller sections of the whip. The kinetic energy of a body depends on its mass and on the square of its speed. At the start of the stroke the total mass of the whip is moving with a moderate speed. Toward the end of the stroke, a much smaller mass must be moving at a much higher speed to have the same kinetic energy." Physics of Golf , Jorgensen

[slicefixer]

how bout the game you played as a kid when you all held hands and ran around in a circle and when the first kid stopped and so on and so on to the last kid...what happened to him....he ended up in Guam... creates torque...more so then if the pivots just had continuous acceleration

 

 

We do the same thing up here, on ice. The line of people skates and the first person TURNS, continues to skate in a turn, and the end of the line gets PULLED way OUT, could never make that tight of a turn, the inside PULLS the outside out. The last person still ends up in Guam, and nobody stopped or snapped the kinetic chain. Sme idea, but the engine never stops.

 

Different scenario... your not snapping the kinetic chain..." During the stroke, succesive parts of the whip are stopped and the kinetic energy of these parts is fed into the succesively smaller sections of the whip. The kinetic energy of a body depends on its mass and on the square of its speed. At the start of the stroke the total mass of the whip is moving with a moderate speed. Toward the end of the stroke, a much smaller mass must be moving at a much higher speed to have the same kinetic energy." Physics of Golf , Jorgensen

 

 

I'm gonna' borrow a bit from Mr. Burke, "who tha' hell is Jorgenson and how many majors did he win?"......... :) :rolleyes:

[PurePursuit]

I don't think thats breaking the chain Birdie...I think its more like a pully system, each part positively influencing the other while remaining connected.

[ej002]

how bout the game you played as a kid when you all held hands and ran around in a circle and when the first kid stopped and so on and so on to the last kid...what happened to him....he ended up in Guam... creates torque...more so then if the pivots just had continuous acceleration

 

 

We do the same thing up here, on ice. The line of people skates and the first person TURNS, continues to skate in a turn, and the end of the line gets PULLED way OUT, could never make that tight of a turn, the inside PULLS the outside out. The last person still ends up in Guam, and nobody stopped or snapped the kinetic chain. Sme idea, but the engine never stops.

 

Different scenario... your not snapping the kinetic chain..." During the stroke, succesive parts of the whip are stopped and the kinetic energy of these parts is fed into the succesively smaller sections of the whip. The kinetic energy of a body depends on its mass and on the square of its speed. At the start of the stroke the total mass of the whip is moving with a moderate speed. Toward the end of the stroke, a much smaller mass must be moving at a much higher speed to have the same kinetic energy." Physics of Golf , Jorgensen

 

 

Doesn't that disprove your point? If you dont stop the larger muscles, then you keep more power with more weight. That is probably that "heavy hit" slice always talks about. So if you dont stall now you have MORE weight and the clubhead moving at the same speed it would have if you stopped your core, thus more energy. I dont know, maybe I am missing something.

[hayam]

I don't think thats breaking the chain Birdie...I think its more like a pully system, each part positively influencing the other while remaining connected.

 

 

Dont think thats exactly correct ...

 

My guess is and how I think i would explain ... say legs , hips, shoulder , arms are 4 cylinders stacked together with rod in the center, hypothetically ... They have the same MOTION range.. each cylinder can travel say 22.5* from one another)

 

say the arm travels twice as much as the shoulder and the shoulder twice as much as the hip etc So making them total of 22.5*x4=90* in each directions..

 

Say from the top.. the disc are turned fully clockwise ( fully loaded + locked) and say each of this cylinder there a spring stretched in the counterclockwise directions .. that makes it pretty close to the physics we are trying to explain?

 

NOW... would you sync this 4 disc , try to sync this 4 disc so it will rotate at the same rate?

 

Or the disc moves from bottom up and 4 discs starts together and the last part that moves to that 90* points is the top of the disc.. all over them move in similar relative speed BUT different surface speed...

 

There is a point when the disc sync.. so the race starts with 4 disc moving at the same surface speed , the bottom disc brakes/end of motion and transfer that momentum to the top disc and so on.. thus creating a kinetic chain of action.. Add in the sequential release of the spring to spice it up say just a very short delay from one another like in a swing....from the first bottom disc..

 

Say.. we deliberately slow down one of the disc, the stored energy will be carried forward to the next disc earlier but since the period of acceleration is a little shorter.. so speed is compensated..So Properly lagged and torqued pivot = Power...Each brake in the disc due to the range of motion will snap the kinetic chain of the above disc.

 

 

BUT say ... Your gonna think that this 4 disc are just gonna be SYNCED as long as possible.. Then we will be losing the kinetic chain

IN SHORT.. Properly lagging+ loading the different joints and releasing them = snaping the kinetic chain!... NOW.. would you still rotate everything hard? .... uhmm not me...

 

 

Say our joints, cartilage ,muscle works like spring , from its stretched state, after the spring reaches its fully ductile ( rest relaxed state) it will compress a little and bounce back , a little backing up is created. Not sure how muscle works.. but .. good analogy?

 

In reality.. its a touch different... because the arm need to sync with the torso at impact thus the start up rate might be different, and the disc will be in 3 d movable joints ... so analogy is just to explain the kinetic chain.. the body is much more complex than this...Thus making human body one of the most toughest to understand in sports application.

 

 

And ... snaping the kinetic chain AND slowing down the pivot is entirely a different matter... One is to create effortless power using proper biometric knowledge. another is to create a different flight..

 

close enough machinegolfer? And thanks for explaining it...!

 

 

 

 

By An ADHD sufferer.

[mizuno67]

"Snapping the kinetic chain"......

 

Is it a "way" to swing..........?

 

Hmmm.....I'm not so sure.

 

Does it influence the plane line? Does the plane line influence it? In what way(s)?

 

I haven't read all this thread but I think pretty well anyone who can create any real speed must break their pivot some.

 

Including Hogan, Byrd, Immelman, Snead, Toms, CHIII, and any other guys whose swings people like or swings that are in the "swings left nicely" group.

 

You can only thrust your hips so far. (before they "run out of steam"/run out of "travel")

 

Myself, I don't even really have much research to prove my position.

 

Please do correct me if you think I am wrong. (I very well could be)

 

 

well that will add to the discussion Birdie good stuff maybe of that group Hogan possibly kept the pivot going longer by adding his right side into impact

[Dariusz J.]

I am not an expert on 2-plane swings. Maybe what you all say about "KINETIC CHAIN" is correct in view of that type of swing.

However, in a one plane swing the situation is a bit different. The lead arm is the part of "the car" because it's pinned across the chest at impact (at least its upper part). Therefore, if the car breaks the left arm breaks, too. As HF said, if the car stops the books will never move with a bigger speed than the car was moving with. If we assume that the books will anyhow move with a bigger velocity, there must be an additional force adding the speed to them, causing them to accelerate relative to the car.

The question is - what force is this and how is it applied. As the left arm does can't do it, neither the left side of the body (that was dominant through all the swing until now with its pulling force) it becomes obvious that the additional power should come from the right part of the body, in general.

Someone may tell that the motion of the left wrist or hand may add this acceleration - fine. Nevertheless, I am of the opinion that the "power" of the left wrist in this situation is very limited.

 

Mizuno67's comment is very valid, IMHO. We are back to Hogan's "three right hands" concept...no matter if Hogan thought about right forearm, hand, or right shoulder. This is a concept worth further studies.

 

Cheers

[bloodredsun]

Sorry to butt in but could some one please explain the principle of 'Pivot breaking'/'Stallin' and Slingin'' a little more clearly.

[hackdog]

But Machine, you CAN hit all the shots with the same basic pivot/golf swing and NOT have to worry about braking anything.......I KNOW this to be true 100%.......that's what I don't "get".......why would you want to be forced into learning more than ONE swing to hit a wide variety of shots........NOW, learning some specialty shots where you might "brake" without realizing your "braking" is almost a necessity, but, to try and "brake and snap" ANYthing just doesn't make sense to me........both as a former player and now as a teacher.......UNDER PRESSURE you'd better be able to "dial it in and have a go"......you THINK to much and your dead over the long haul.........one day/one tournament, even one year, ok, but lose the timing/feeling and your in big trouble.........IMOP.......:)

 

BTW, I'm NOT discounting the research and hard work within the TGM community to figure it out. In fact, I APPLAUD THEM and am personally VERY interested in your conclusions and have a couple of pretty good sources that keep me posted.......my problem is this, SOOOO many times I've run into TGM guy's who think they "know it all" and, in the end, they didn't........as I've said numerous times, TGM has been "revized" 7 times with an 8th in the works I'm sure........and "Theoretical physics" is just that, THEORY..........and when your out there with your a** on the line you'd better be relying on a LOT more than theory........IMOP.......:rolleyes:

 

Both types of swings are really just a different way to release the clubhead. Both types snap the "kinetic Chain". One does it with pivot braking and one does it by the path of the hands. I promise you Slice's method snaps the chain. Once the clubhead is traveling down, out and forward and you change the hand path to up and left, you will snap the chain. IMOP.

[glc3344]

Sorry to butt in but could some one please explain the principle of 'Pivot breaking'/'Stallin' and Slingin'' a little more clearly.

 

I agree. I would like to know more since everytime i look at luke donalds swing it looks perfect. :) Anyone have a picture or something so we can see the difference between breaking and not breaking?

[hayam]

I googled and found this..Snaping a kinetic chain in other kind of sports.

 

A variety of other instructional documents, from Little League's Official How-to-Play Baseball Book to Softball for Girls & Women, mainly reveal the difficulty of finding words to describe a simple motor activity that everyone can recognize. The challenge, I suppose, is like that of writing a manual on how to ride a bike, or how to kiss. Indeed, the most useful description I've found of the mechanics of throwing comes from a man whose specialty is another sport: Vic Braden made his name as a tennis coach, but he has attempted to analyze the physics of a wide variety of sports so that they all will be easier to teach.

 

Braden says that an effective throw involves connecting a series of links in a "kinetic chain." The kinetic chain, which is Braden's tool for analyzing most sporting activity, operates on a principle like that of crack-the-whip. Momentum builds up in one part of the body. When that part is suddenly stopped, as the end of the "whip" is stopped in crack-the-whip, the momentum is transferred to and concentrated in the next link in the chain. A good throw uses six links of chain, Braden says. The first two links involve the lower body, from feet to waist. The first motion of a throw (after the body has been rotated away from the target) is to rotate the legs and hips back in the direction of the throw, building up momentum as large muscles move body mass. Then those links stop—a pitcher stops turning his hips once they face the plate—and the momentum is transferred to the next link. This is the torso, from waist to shoulders, and since its mass is less than that of the legs, momentum makes it rotate faster than the hips and legs did. The torso stops when it is facing the plate, and the momentum is transferred to the next link—the upper arm. As the upper arm comes past the head, it stops moving forward, and the momentum goes into the final links—the forearm and wrist, which snap forward at tremendous speed.

[hayam]

Sorry to butt in but could some one please explain the principle of 'Pivot breaking'/'Stallin' and Slingin'' a little more clearly.

 

I agree. I would like to know more since everytime i look at luke donalds swing it looks perfect. :) Anyone have a picture or something so we can see the difference between breaking and not breaking?

 

 

Try youtube swingvision.. thats even clearer.

[KMeloney]

I know HoganFan said he didn't want to write anymore on this, but I hope he will. This is interesting.

 

As an observer of this thread, it sounds to me like there are two different laws of physics being applied here -- and the description of each is probable correct in it's own right. I'm just trying to sort out which "applies" here, or at least more so than the other.

 

I am not an engineer/physicist, which will be obvious, BTW...

 

In the discussion of a car braking, the idea seems to be that no more speed of the things in the car is created by braking. Sure, it might feel like it to the occupants, but they'll no doubt be moving slower and slower after the sudden braking. That's all relative to the ground, and since we're talking about a golf swing relative to a ball that's not moving, you can make a case for this.

 

BUT, what may NOT make the car-braking idea apply here seems to be the idea that the golf swing is CIRCULAR, and not linear like a car that is braking. When talking about a whip, the hand moving the whip moves much slower than the end of the whip being cracked, right? And the hand has to move in a circular motion in order to crack the whip. The whip end has to move in a circular (tight arc) motion in order to speed up, right? Also, you have to STOP your hand in order to create the crack of the whip -- or else it won't crack.

 

Isn't the golf swing, with its circular motion and breaking of joints on the back swing to a near (or full?) straightening of joints at/after impart more like the cracking of a whip than the movement and braking of a car? Without knowing EXACTLY what pivot braking is, I'll assume that even if you stop your core rotation, your shoulders and wrists can release the club head against this stopped position to get the clubhead going faster than it just was. By virtue of the car scenario, it sounds like everything would need to slow -- but that doesn't appear to be want happens in the golf swing, since it's circular, and joints can still unhinge.

 

With a pitcher, the "car" seems to be the pitcher's planting leg. When that gets planted on the rubber, and essentially stops moving, all kinds of ball (that's "in the car") is GENERATED from this. Now, if the pitcher just held the ball out in front of him, shoulder high, and ran toward home base and stopped suddenly, then the ball might fall forward 3 feet or so. Isn't the first pitching scenario more like a golf swing, and LESS like the car braking analogy?

 

Thanks for the education!! Keep it up!

 

/< / /2 /<

[Machinegolfer]

how bout the game you played as a kid when you all held hands and ran around in a circle and when the first kid stopped and so on and so on to the last kid...what happened to him....he ended up in Guam... creates torque...more so then if the pivots just had continuous acceleration

 

 

We do the same thing up here, on ice. The line of people skates and the first person TURNS, continues to skate in a turn, and the end of the line gets PULLED way OUT, could never make that tight of a turn, the inside PULLS the outside out. The last person still ends up in Guam, and nobody stopped or snapped the kinetic chain. Sme idea, but the engine never stops.

 

 

Different scenario... your not snapping the kinetic chain..." During the stroke, succesive parts of the whip are stopped and the kinetic energy of these parts is fed into the succesively smaller sections of the whip. The kinetic energy of a body depends on its mass and on the square of its speed. At the start of the stroke the total mass of the whip is moving with a moderate speed. Toward the end of the stroke, a much smaller mass must be moving at a much higher speed to have the same kinetic energy." Physics of Golf , Jorgensen

 

 

Doesn't that disprove your point? If you dont stop the larger muscles, then you keep more power with more weight. That is probably that "heavy hit" slice always talks about. So if you dont stall now you have MORE weight and the clubhead moving at the same speed it would have if you stopped your core, thus more energy. I dont know, maybe I am missing something.

 

Ummmmmm No, the point was something has to cease at its current acceleration, its not the entire rotating mass that just stops, just SOMETHING, aka breaking is not STOPPING the rotating mass, its breaking or slowing down a joint in sequential order, aka the kinetic chain...in your example, its the weight on a string the twirl around in a cirlce and if the knot its connected to comes undone, then it flies off while the string continues to whirl...some one more well versed in physics im sure could explain this phenomena in greater detail than I can

[slicefixer]

But Machine, you CAN hit all the shots with the same basic pivot/golf swing and NOT have to worry about braking anything.......I KNOW this to be true 100%.......that's what I don't "get".......why would you want to be forced into learning more than ONE swing to hit a wide variety of shots........NOW, learning some specialty shots where you might "brake" without realizing your "braking" is almost a necessity, but, to try and "brake and snap" ANYthing just doesn't make sense to me........both as a former player and now as a teacher.......UNDER PRESSURE you'd better be able to "dial it in and have a go"......you THINK to much and your dead over the long haul.........one day/one tournament, even one year, ok, but lose the timing/feeling and your in big trouble.........IMOP.......:)

 

BTW, I'm NOT discounting the research and hard work within the TGM community to figure it out. In fact, I APPLAUD THEM and am personally VERY interested in your conclusions and have a couple of pretty good sources that keep me posted.......my problem is this, SOOOO many times I've run into TGM guy's who think they "know it all" and, in the end, they didn't........as I've said numerous times, TGM has been "revized" 7 times with an 8th in the works I'm sure........and "Theoretical physics" is just that, THEORY..........and when your out there with your a** on the line you'd better be relying on a LOT more than theory........IMOP.......:rolleyes:

 

Both types of swings are really just a different way to release the clubhead. Both types snap the "kinetic Chain". One does it with pivot braking and one does it by the path of the hands. I promise you Slice's method snaps the chain. Once the clubhead is traveling down, out and forward and you change the hand path to up and left, you will snap the chain. IMOP.

 

 

Yep, and it "snaps" it without "snappin' IT" all over the golf course.......:cheesy:

[Machinegolfer]

how bout the game you played as a kid when you all held hands and ran around in a circle and when the first kid stopped and so on and so on to the last kid...what happened to him....he ended up in Guam... creates torque...more so then if the pivots just had continuous acceleration

 

 

We do the same thing up here, on ice. The line of people skates and the first person TURNS, continues to skate in a turn, and the end of the line gets PULLED way OUT, could never make that tight of a turn, the inside PULLS the outside out. The last person still ends up in Guam, and nobody stopped or snapped the kinetic chain. Sme idea, but the engine never stops.

 

Different scenario... your not snapping the kinetic chain..." During the stroke, succesive parts of the whip are stopped and the kinetic energy of these parts is fed into the succesively smaller sections of the whip. The kinetic energy of a body depends on its mass and on the square of its speed. At the start of the stroke the total mass of the whip is moving with a moderate speed. Toward the end of the stroke, a much smaller mass must be moving at a much higher speed to have the same kinetic energy." Physics of Golf , Jorgensen

 

 

I'm gonna' borrow a bit from Mr. Burke, "who tha' hell is Jorgenson and how many majors did he win?"......... :) :rolleyes:

 

Theodore P. Jorgensen, physicist, I dont know Burke, maybe your talking about jackie but how phyics oriented is he??

[ej002]

how bout the game you played as a kid when you all held hands and ran around in a circle and when the first kid stopped and so on and so on to the last kid...what happened to him....he ended up in Guam... creates torque...more so then if the pivots just had continuous acceleration

 

 

We do the same thing up here, on ice. The line of people skates and the first person TURNS, continues to skate in a turn, and the end of the line gets PULLED way OUT, could never make that tight of a turn, the inside PULLS the outside out. The last person still ends up in Guam, and nobody stopped or snapped the kinetic chain. Sme idea, but the engine never stops.

 

 

Different scenario... your not snapping the kinetic chain..." During the stroke, succesive parts of the whip are stopped and the kinetic energy of these parts is fed into the succesively smaller sections of the whip. The kinetic energy of a body depends on its mass and on the square of its speed. At the start of the stroke the total mass of the whip is moving with a moderate speed. Toward the end of the stroke, a much smaller mass must be moving at a much higher speed to have the same kinetic energy." Physics of Golf , Jorgensen

 

 

Doesn't that disprove your point? If you dont stop the larger muscles, then you keep more power with more weight. That is probably that "heavy hit" slice always talks about. So if you dont stall now you have MORE weight and the clubhead moving at the same speed it would have if you stopped your core, thus more energy. I dont know, maybe I am missing something.

 

Ummmmmm No, the point was something has to cease at its current acceleration, its not the entire rotating mass that just stops, just SOMETHING, aka breaking is not STOPPING the rotating mass, its breaking or slowing down a joint in sequential order, aka the kinetic chain...in your example, its the weight on a string the twirl around in a cirlce and if the knot its connected to comes undone, then it flies off while the string continues to whirl...some one more well versed in physics im sure could explain this phenomena in greater detail than I can

 

Oh, I get your point, but the ball does not fly off at a faster speed than it was going in a circle. That is point, and you could aim something going in a constant circle easier than something flying off the circle. Those are to 2 different physical forces we are talking about, but either way the speed is not any different. But now the mass is (even if it is just the string).

 

I dont see why anything has to stop.

[slicefixer]

how bout the game you played as a kid when you all held hands and ran around in a circle and when the first kid stopped and so on and so on to the last kid...what happened to him....he ended up in Guam... creates torque...more so then if the pivots just had continuous acceleration

 

 

We do the same thing up here, on ice. The line of people skates and the first person TURNS, continues to skate in a turn, and the end of the line gets PULLED way OUT, could never make that tight of a turn, the inside PULLS the outside out. The last person still ends up in Guam, and nobody stopped or snapped the kinetic chain. Sme idea, but the engine never stops.

 

Different scenario... your not snapping the kinetic chain..." During the stroke, succesive parts of the whip are stopped and the kinetic energy of these parts is fed into the succesively smaller sections of the whip. The kinetic energy of a body depends on its mass and on the square of its speed. At the start of the stroke the total mass of the whip is moving with a moderate speed. Toward the end of the stroke, a much smaller mass must be moving at a much higher speed to have the same kinetic energy." Physics of Golf , Jorgensen

 

 

I'm gonna' borrow a bit from Mr. Burke, "who tha' hell is Jorgenson and how many majors did he win?"......... :) :rolleyes:

 

Theodore P. Jorgensen, physicist, I dont know Burke, maybe your talking about jackie but how phyics oriented is he??

 

 

I knew who he was Machine........my point is CAN this guy PLAY? And, if so, at what level? IF not, then ANYTHING he says is THEORY........100% THEORY.......IMOP......I'm NOT discounting his work/research/concepts, etc. etc. etc. FAR from it actually..........but it's ONE thing to TALK/WRITE about a subject and quite another to actually be able to "WALK" the subject.......and Mr. Burke's point is this, IF you've never been in high level competition under extreme presssure then anything you might say isn't pressure tested nor is it anything but theory........

 

Maybe a better example is this, would you rather learn about flying from the Aeronautics prof at the junior college who's never flown a plane, but, has the manual memorized........or would your rather learn from the old guy who captianed a B-17 in WWII and survived to tell about it? I know which one I'd be more inclined to listen to, although I WOULD listen to both.......but, the B-17 pilot who has flown the plane KNOWS what the deal is........he's brought her in on 2 engines........gear won't extend........flaps shot to hell.......rudder not cooperating, etc. etc. etc.......

 

My main point is this, your a very smart young man so be VERY careful who/what you "bite into" and keep reading a WIDE variety of instructors/methods so as to form YOUR own opinions rather than parrot somebody elses........NOT saying your doing this, but, it's VERY easy to get caught up in somebody elses stuff and do so........

[Machinegolfer]

how bout the game you played as a kid when you all held hands and ran around in a circle and when the first kid stopped and so on and so on to the last kid...what happened to him....he ended up in Guam... creates torque...more so then if the pivots just had continuous acceleration

 

 

We do the same thing up here, on ice. The line of people skates and the first person TURNS, continues to skate in a turn, and the end of the line gets PULLED way OUT, could never make that tight of a turn, the inside PULLS the outside out. The last person still ends up in Guam, and nobody stopped or snapped the kinetic chain. Sme idea, but the engine never stops.

 

Different scenario... your not snapping the kinetic chain..." During the stroke, succesive parts of the whip are stopped and the kinetic energy of these parts is fed into the succesively smaller sections of the whip. The kinetic energy of a body depends on its mass and on the square of its speed. At the start of the stroke the total mass of the whip is moving with a moderate speed. Toward the end of the stroke, a much smaller mass must be moving at a much higher speed to have the same kinetic energy." Physics of Golf , Jorgensen

 

 

I'm gonna' borrow a bit from Mr. Burke, "who tha' hell is Jorgenson and how many majors did he win?"......... :) :rolleyes:

 

Theodore P. Jorgensen, physicist, I dont know Burke, maybe your talking about jackie but how phyics oriented is he??

 

 

I knew who he was Machine........my point is CAN this guy PLAY? And, if so, at what level? IF not, then ANYTHING he says is THEORY........100% THEORY.......IMOP......I'm NOT discounting his work/research/concepts, etc. etc. etc. FAR from it actually..........but it's ONE thing to TALK/WRITE about a subject and quite another to actually be able to "WALK" the subject.......and Mr. Burke's point is this, IF you've never been in high level commpetition under extreme presssure then anything you might say isn't pressure tested nor is it anything but theory........

 

Maybe a better example is this, would you rather learn about flying from the Aeronautics prof at the junior college who's never flown a plane, but, has the manual memorized........or would your rather learn from the old guy who captianed a B-17 in WWII and survived to tell about it? I know which one I'd be more inclined to listen to, although I WOULD listen to both.......but, the B-17 pilot who has flown the plane KNOWS what the deal is........he's brought her in on 2 engines........gear won't extend........flaps shot to hell.......rudder not cooperating, etc. etc. etc.......

 

My main point is this, your a very smart young man so be VERY careful who/what you "bite into" and keep reading a WIDE variety of instructors/methods so as to form YOUR own opinions rather than parrot somebody elses........NOT saying your doing this, but, it's VERY easy to get caught up in somebody elses stuff and do so........

 

Well wait a minute, hogan said he cleared his hips in a circular fashion and in actuality he slide them a solid 10 inches or so...so who are you saying I listen to, the player or the teacher? It's one thing to know HOW to do it, and its another thing to kno what the hecks going on...i choose both... i take in ALL information and I take ALL this information and discuss it with experts in Biomechanics, psychologists, physicists etc world authorities on golf instruction etc... not poking at anyone but alot of people seem to take hoganfan at his word...is he a great player and/or ballstriker? I honestly don't know, but I do know that I can understand basic biomechanics, geometry and physics and apply it positively in my own game and the game of my students

[slicefixer]

name='Machinegolfer' post='950447' date='Mar 5 2008, 12:22 AM']how bout the game you played as a kid when you all held hands and ran around in a circle and when the first kid stopped and so on and so on to the last kid...what happened to him....he ended up in Guam... creates torque...more so then if the pivots just had continuous acceleration

 

 

We do the same thing up here, on ice. The line of people skates and the first person TURNS, continues to skate in a turn, and the end of the line gets PULLED way OUT, could never make that tight of a turn, the inside PULLS the outside out. The last person still ends up in Guam, and nobody stopped or snapped the kinetic chain. Sme idea, but the engine never stops.

 

Different scenario... your not snapping the kinetic chain..." During the stroke, succesive parts of the whip are stopped and the kinetic energy of these parts is fed into the succesively smaller sections of the whip. The kinetic energy of a body depends on its mass and on the square of its speed. At the start of the stroke the total mass of the whip is moving with a moderate speed. Toward the end of the stroke, a much smaller mass must be moving at a much higher speed to have the same kinetic energy." Physics of Golf , Jorgensen

 

 

I'm gonna' borrow a bit from Mr. Burke, "who tha' hell is Jorgenson and how many majors did he win?"......... :) :rolleyes:

 

Theodore P. Jorgensen, physicist, I dont know Burke, maybe your talking about jackie but how phyics oriented is he??

 

 

I knew who he was Machine........my point is CAN this guy PLAY? And, if so, at what level? IF not, then ANYTHING he says is THEORY........100% THEORY.......IMOP......I'm NOT discounting his work/research/concepts, etc. etc. etc. FAR from it actually..........but it's ONE thing to TALK/WRITE about a subject and quite another to actually be able to "WALK" the subject.......and Mr. Burke's point is this, IF you've never been in high level commpetition under extreme presssure then anything you might say isn't pressure tested nor is it anything but theory........

 

Maybe a better example is this, would you rather learn about flying from the Aeronautics prof at the junior college who's never flown a plane, but, has the manual memorized........or would your rather learn from the old guy who captianed a B-17 in WWII and survived to tell about it? I know which one I'd be more inclined to listen to, although I WOULD listen to both.......but, the B-17 pilot who has flown the plane KNOWS what the deal is........he's brought her in on 2 engines........gear won't extend........flaps shot to hell.......rudder not cooperating, etc. etc. etc.......

 

My main point is this, your a very smart young man so be VERY careful who/what you "bite into" and keep reading a WIDE variety of instructors/methods so as to form YOUR own opinions rather than parrot somebody elses........NOT saying your doing this, but, it's VERY easy to get caught up in somebody elses stuff and do so........

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well wait a minute, hogan said he cleared his hips in a circular fashion and in actuality he slide them a solid 10 inches or so.

 

NOT from the TOP of his backswing he didn't.......LOL......

 

 

 

 

 

 

..so who are you saying I listen to, the player or the teacher? It's one thing to know HOW to do it, and its another thing to kno what the hecks going on...i choose both... i take in ALL information and I take ALL this information and discuss it with experts in Biomechanics, psychologists, physicists etc world authorities on golf instruction etc...

 

Who are these authorities and what is their playing background? How many truly good players have they PRODUCED from the "ground up?"

 

 

 

 

 

not poking at anyone but alot of people seem to take hoganfan at his word...is he a great player and/or ballstriker?

 

Yes, he can play a bit.......around scratch.......probably anywhere from a 3 or 4 playing poorly or after a long lay off to a + 1 when he's been practicing...........

 

 

 

 

 

I honestly don't know, but I do know that I can understand basic biomechanics, geometry and physics and apply it positively in my own game and the game of my students

 

Fair enough........but do you KNOW for CERTAIN whether your swinging to 100% of YOUR potential? Are you 100% CERTAIN that what your teaching your students is the best way for them? Maybe so, but, maybe not.........gotta' do a LOT of due diligence IMOP........and I'm NOT saying your not nor am I saying your not teaching exactly what's proper, etc.

 

Gotta' run......on tha' hill........