Skins game and handicapping

[mkb3245]

Have a question for you all, and I would love to hear your thoughts and opinions on the matter. A buddy and I are getting together a group of guys at our club for a weekly skins and best-ball match. We've run into a couple of differing opinions on how to handicap the skins portion of the match. Here are the two choices -- which is the proper method; which do you use in your matches (if any); etc.

 

For the skins match, we get 50% of our handicap. That has been established and is cool with everyone. Here are the differing methods from that:

1.) Does everyone 'pop' off the low man? For example, let's say the lowest guy has a course handicap (after the 50%) of 2. Should he play from scratch and reduce everyone else accordingly? Or is that unfair to him in that he is not getting strokes on the 2 hardest holes?

 

2.) Everyone gets strokes where they fall, even the lowest handicap. In this scenario, is it unfair that the higher handicaps will be getting strokes on 'easier' holes but will be playing the low handicaps straight up on the most difficult holes?

 

I can see it both ways (although my original inclination was towards #1), so I would appreciate everyone's thoughts and opinions on this......

[mjc694]

makes more sense to set the low man at 0, and get your shots over that. Why give the best player a shot on a hole where everyone else gets one? its redundant, and it does bring the shots into play on easier holes.

 

Just my 2 cents. good luck.

[hbear]

Low man plays off scratch...then others adjust to suit.

 

No sense having the low guy playing heads up on the hardest holes.

[jjj912]

It seems to me that most of the games I've read about make the low handicapper play as a scratch player and adjust all other handicaps down accordingly. It might be worthwhile to consider each players individual handicaps. If the low hdcp player is much better than everyone else, make him play as scratch. If he's only somewhat better, then it may be unfair to him.

 

You could also consider the relative hole difficulties. Are the two hardest holes much harder than the next two hardest holes, or are they just somewhat harder? I've never heard of anyone doing this and I'm not sure how to include that in your decision making process; if it's even a good idea at all.

[mkb3245]

It seems to me that most of the games I've read about make the low handicapper play as a scratch player and adjust all other handicaps down accordingly. It might be worthwhile to consider each players individual handicaps. If the low hdcp player is much better than everyone else, make him play as scratch. If he's only somewhat better, then it may be unfair to him.

 

You could also consider the relative hole difficulties. Are the two hardest holes much harder than the next two hardest holes, or are they just somewhat harder? I've never heard of anyone doing this and I'm not sure how to include that in your decision making process; if it's even a good idea at all.

 

The handicap distribution is pretty good. No one is more than a couple strokes better than the next guy down the line of people. No one is higher than an 11 index.

 

As for the 2 'hardest' holes, they are both par 5s that when playing the back tees (which we will do when the weather warms up) they measure a shade over 600 yards each....not really reachable except for maybe a guy or two (only in perfect cirmcumstances). I don't think we'd change anything based on what we think about each hole due to the potential difference of opinions.

[caddiezero]

My opinion for scenario one is to play accordingly to your established handicap. So a two is a two not a scratch, btw there is a difference if don't think so you are entitled to have your own opinion.

 

The second scenario if I'm reading correctly doesn't make much sense. How does the lowest handicap fall for strokes?

 

The two hardest holes are already handicapped so everybody or nobody "pops" in a match play situation. It can show you how good everybody is playing for real under normal conditions, no?

[mkb3245]

My opinion for scenario one is to play accordingly to your established handicap. So a two is a two not a scratch, btw there is a difference if don't think so you are entitled to have your own opinion.

 

The second scenario if I'm reading correctly doesn't make much sense. How does the lowest handicap fall for strokes?

 

 

Scenario 2 is simply everyone plays off of his own handicap. You get strokes where you are afforded them. That differs from Scenario 1 in that the lowest handicapped player is reduced to 0, and all other golfers are reduced by that same number (the number needed to make the lowest handicapper a scratch).

 

**Note -- in our matches, we've pretty much agreed to play 50% of our handicaps. My question simply revolves around what the benchmark for strokes should be......

[caddiezero]

Playing half of you handicap is fair if it works. So the benchmark is as follows in my opinion. 1. Handicap halved in match play situation 2. The hardest 1 and 2 holes are not part of the handicap according to the course and slope ratings. 3. The handicap applied to the course and the golfers not the 2 only rating becomes the benchmark.

[TEConnor]

In general, the hardest holes for low handicap groups are not the same for mid to high handicappers. Hence, I would make sure that you all agree ahead of time on which holes get the pops. I stopped playing a money game with a group at a local course because they insisted on stroking on the order of "handicapped" holes as per the rating exercise. This majorly favored the stroking players. The problem is that these hole rating systems for the general public (ie 20 handicaps) work ok, but you get guys playing between +2 and 4 it becomes ludicrous. The hardest holes for low to mid-handicaps are almost always the tightest holes (ie, usually not the longest) with the trickiest greens/pins and most trouble. The way the rating system works is they almost always bias "difficulty" towards overall length first, then other factors. Hence, this almost always biases the strokes towards par 5s, but statistically these holes have the lowest margin of difference between scores for "good" players (ie, scratch might average 4.25 and 4 handicaps average 4.5). Whereas, the holes with the greatest variation between strokes for "good" players are usually par 4s with trouble.

 

Have fun.

 

Tim

[jjj912]

Coupling Option 1 with the 50% cut seems redundant somehow. So I guess that leaves just Option 2.

 

While the higher handicap players will get strokes on the easier holes, you've already whacked their freebies by half. The 50% cut changes the spread from 4 to 11 down to 2 to 5.5. In other words, the higher handicap, who was 7 strokes worse than the low handicap, is now only 3.5 strokes worse. From where I'm sitting, the low handicap player is making out like a bandit! He only lost 2 strokes while the high handicaper lost 5.5 strokes.

[Canuck]

A buddy and I are getting together a group of guys at our club for a weekly skins and best-ball match

 

Since you are playing an ongoing skins game, may I suggest the following.

 

We've played skins for years. After wondering why the same guy kept on winning, we read alot of suggestions and came up with the following very logical and equitable solution:

 

-Play off 80% of handicaps (when it was 100% the same guy always won).

 

- Best plays off scratch and the others are then given strokes on the differance.

 

-When a guy wins one week, he then gets one less stroke the next time.

 

Example: Player A plays off a 10, gets 80% for the skins game so now plays off an 8, wins the game, so next skins game he only gets 7.

 

This has been very fair in the long run. Hope it helps and have fun!

[mkb3245]

A buddy and I are getting together a group of guys at our club for a weekly skins and best-ball match

 

Since you are playing an ongoing skins game, may I suggest the following.

 

We've played skins for years. After wondering why the same guy kept on winning, we read alot of suggestions and came up with the following very logical and equitable solution:

 

-Play off 80% of handicaps (when it was 100% the same guy always won).

 

- Best plays off scratch and the others are then given strokes on the differance.

 

-When a guy wins one week, he then gets one less stroke the next time.

 

Example: Player A plays off a 10, gets 80% for the skins game so now plays off an 8, wins the game, so next skins game he only gets 7.

 

This has been very fair in the long run. Hope it helps and have fun!

 

Very interesting.....What happens if the guy (the 8) that won the first week and got bumped down a stroke loses the next week? Does he get moved back to his 8?

 

I think 80% is a better percentage than the 50%......

 

OT: curious as to why this got bumped to the swing/beginners/fitness threads.....clearly it's not that.....

[hbear]

Coupling Option 1 with the 50% cut seems redundant somehow. So I guess that leaves just Option 2.

 

While the higher handicap players will get strokes on the easier holes, you've already whacked their freebies by half. The 50% cut changes the spread from 4 to 11 down to 2 to 5.5. In other words, the higher handicap, who was 7 strokes worse than the low handicap, is now only 3.5 strokes worse. From where I'm sitting, the low handicap player is making out like a bandit! He only lost 2 strokes while the high handicaper lost 5.5 strokes.

 

50% shouldn't matter in either option 1 or 2....has no bearing from my experience.

The main question is where the strokes should be given. If everybody is given their strokes....on the hardest holes the lower caps are esentially playing heads up with the higher caps (which are more likely to need the stroke on those holes).

 

50% might be a bit much (75% prehaps better)...however do consider that it is A LOT easier for a 10 or 20 handicap to shoot below their index vs. scratch guys. You'll see more 18 cappers shoot a 85 than you will see a scratch guy shoot a 67.

 

To add, this is skins...match play. So a guy who lets say an 18 handicap that makes a number of pars and the odd birdie...but then makes doubles/others (knocked down to a double because of ESC) will clean up. Say he ends up making 6 pars, 1 birdie, 2 bogey, 6 doubles and 3 others....he's going to clean up as he's just made 6 net birdies, 1 net eagle, 2 net pars for counters.

I know I sure don't make 6 birdies and an eagle in my rounds.....

[mkb3245]

Coupling Option 1 with the 50% cut seems redundant somehow. So I guess that leaves just Option 2.

 

While the higher handicap players will get strokes on the easier holes, you've already whacked their freebies by half. The 50% cut changes the spread from 4 to 11 down to 2 to 5.5. In other words, the higher handicap, who was 7 strokes worse than the low handicap, is now only 3.5 strokes worse. From where I'm sitting, the low handicap player is making out like a bandit! He only lost 2 strokes while the high handicaper lost 5.5 strokes.

 

50% shouldn't matter in either option 1 or 2....has no bearing from my experience.

The main question is where the strokes should be given. If everybody is given their strokes....on the hardest holes the lower caps are esentially playing heads up with the higher caps (which are more likely to need the stroke on those holes).

 

50% might be a bit much....however do consider that it is A LOT easier for a 10 or 20 handicap to shoot below their index vs. scratch guys. You'll see more 18 cappers shoot a 85 than you will see a scratch guy shoot a 67.

 

To add, this is skins...match play. So a guy who lets say an 18 handicap that makes a number of pars and the odd birdie...but then makes doubles/others (knocked down to a double because of ESC) will clean up. Say he ends up making 7 pars, 1 birdie, 2 bogey, 5 doubles and 3 others....he's going to clean up as he's just made 7 net birdies, 1 net eagle, 2 net pars for counters.

I know I sure don't make 7 birdies and an eagle in my rounds.....

 

Yet another GREAT point!!! This is exactly the reason I've come to you guys for help. I'm going to take all of your opinions to the other guy "in charge" and see what he thinks. We'll either make an executive decision (as organizers) or put it to a vote (we have 8 - 20 guys so the group isn't too crazy).....

 

I really appreciate EVERYONE'S input!!!! :cheesy: :cheesy:

[Canuck]

The losers can go back up or you can leave them where they were.

 

You'll see, eventually, things get balanced out and you get a good idea where everyone should be, relative to everyone else. That's the advantage of playing with the same guys week after week.

 

If a guy hasn't played for while, vacation, work, illness, they usually go back to their original/current handicap, or more if necessary.

 

Also, if someone hasn't won for while, they can get more strokes (number goes up).

 

The whole idea is to keep things fair and equitable....as much as possible.

 

LOL, hope all this helps. :cheesy:

[Canuck]

we have 8 - 20 guys so the group isn't too crazy

 

Whoa, that's a big group, especially closer to twenty.

 

I'd just use the 80% and adjust the winners and go from there. Keep it simple.

[mkb3245]

The losers can go back up or you can leave them where they were.

 

You'll see, eventually, things get balanced out and you get a good idea where everyone should be, relative to everyone else. That's the advantage of playing with the same guys week after week.

 

If a guy hasn't played for while, vacation, work, illness, they usually go back to their original/current handicap, or more if necessary.

 

Also, if someone hasn't won for while, they can get more strokes (number goes up).

 

The whole idea is to keep things fair and equitable....as much as possible.

 

LOL, hope all this helps. :cheesy:

 

This is all great.....the only problem I see is there might be calculations or guesstimates as to when to move people up or down......Our guys are VERY competitive!! BUT, to everyone's credit, all of the handicaps are legit. That's the main reason I have no problem paying people no matter which hole they might win on......

[Canuck]

I'll give you even more wrinkles.

 

We play "Pars or Better". Can only win a hole with a net Par or better. No wins with garbage play.

 

We also play "Progressive". The first 6 holes are worth one. Middle 6 two and the last 6 are worth three. This way nobody's out of the match too early. Lot's and lot's of drama come 17 and 18.

 

As well as all the earlier rules, we play net birds double the value of that particular hole (not the carry over holes). Eagles triple the value.

 

FUN FUN FUN!

[mkb3245]

I'll give you even more wrinkles.

 

We play "Pars or Better". Can only win a hole with a net Par or better. No wins with garbage play.

 

We also play "Progressive". The first 6 holes are worth one. Middle 6 two and the last 6 are worth three. This way nobody's out of the match too early. Lot's and lot's of drama come 17 and 18.

 

As well as all the earlier rules, we play net birds double the value of that particular hole (not the carry over holes). Eagles triple the value.

 

FUN FUN FUN!

 

With our skins, we don't have a dollar amount set for each skin. What we do is everyone pitches in $20 - $40 (depending on the day) and the total in the skins pot is divided by the number of skins won total to calculate the value of each skin. So, it's possible that only one skin is won and it's worth $400.

 

I've also considered suggesting that we should have to validate the skin -- make net par or better on the next hole in order to keep the skin. If you make bogey or worse, the skin is nullified. BUT, I'm afraid that will probably not be received very well by the group.

[hbear]

We play with validation.....makes for some intense games. (guys trying to make birdie to "steal" skins)

Although it does suck when you've just made birdie to win the hole, but have to validate on a par5 where a single digit gets a stroke.....

;)

[mkb3245]

We play with validation.....makes for some intense games. (guys trying to make birdie to "steal" skins)

Although it does suck when you've just made birdie to win the hole, but have to validate on a par5 where a single digit gets a stroke.....

;)

 

The validation I've always played just requires you make net par on the next hole. It doesn't matter if someone makes a birdie to beat your par.

[dlo]

Regarding your options 1 and 2, our golf course was rehandicapped a few years ago for this issue. the fourth hole on our course (235 yd. par 3) has historically been the toughest in relation to par and for a long time was the #1 handicap hole. The issue was that everyone would take bogey or worse and the high handicappers would take home the hole no problems.

 

The course was rehandicapped to reflect where the higher handicappers need the strokes (long but reachable for the really good players par 5 is now number one) vs. which is the hardest hole in relation to par. It makes sense now to have the low guy be scratch and everyone play off him as opposed to everyone getting their own strokes.

 

Also - we validate on tying or better the best score on the next hole.

[hbear]

We play with validation.....makes for some intense games. (guys trying to make birdie to "steal" skins)

Although it does suck when you've just made birdie to win the hole, but have to validate on a par5 where a single digit gets a stroke.....

;)

 

The validation I've always played just requires you make net par on the next hole. It doesn't matter if someone makes a birdie to beat your par.

 

Makes sense, I know that one....we add in the ability to "steal" skins to keep the pressure up.

(doesn't give the guy that won them a "Free ride" on the following hole)

Makes for some fun times, and a lot of laughs when guys are stealing each others skins.

[Ridgecrest18]

Skins is a straight up game......... no bloody strokes given or asked. If you feel compelled to handicap the game, split the tees and pair accordingly. Playing off Handicaps in a skins game...... why don't you just ask the low "cappers" to mail their checks.

 

Hold on now,,,,,,, before you start throwing darts, I was just having a go with the topic. But actually do think a Skins Game should be played straight up ;)

 

Good luck and Cheers,

[mkb3245]

Skins is a straight up game......... no bloody strokes given or asked. If you feel compelled to handicap the game, split the tees and pair accordingly. Playing off Handicaps in a skins game...... why don't you just ask the low "cappers" to mail their checks.

 

Hold on now,,,,,,, before you start throwing darts, I was just having a go with the topic. But actually do think a Skins Game should be played straight up ;)

 

Good luck and Cheers,

 

I don't necessarily disagree, but when there is upwards of 12 strokes in difference in handicap, that's asking a bit much (to play straight up). We will let one guy play a different set of tees since he's fairly old (73) and can't even reach some of the par 4s in two when we play from the back tees. As for splitting the tees, that would be as much a disadvantage as using the strokes at our course......too much difference in the par 3s and 5s.

 

BTW, in our last skins game, the lower cap guys won more skins than the higher cap guys.....so I'm not sure your statement is iron-clad....

[Canuck]

I'll throw the first dart.

 

That's why you only play off of 80% of your handicap.

 

As mentioned earlier, when we first started playing skins, the same guy won over and over. The high handicap. When we started to read about skins, we realized the best and fairest way to play is with the 80% rule. Now, along with our "adjusted handicap" for winners, anyone can win at anytime.

[Ridgecrest18]

The point of splitting tees in a Skins game, is a simple one. High-cappers can fall into several catagories; lack of distance off the tee; trouble hitting long irons and approach shot; or poor skills around the greens. Mid-cappers are usually longer off the tee but still have some difficulty w/ long iron approaches and may still struggle a bit around the greens. Handicapping should only address "yardage differences, as anyone [whether an 18 or a +2] can have a very servicable short-game, if they are willing to practice it.

 

By splitting tees, low-cappers (0-5) play the tips.... mid-cappers (6-10) play one box up to help compensate for approach shot yardages.... high cappers (11-18) play the next box up to compensate, even more, for approach yardages. The goal would be to place/leave all players w/ equitable approach-shot distances and then let the outcome/scoring reflect skill.

 

Just a thought.... ;)

[mkb3245]

The point of splitting tees in a Skins game, is a simple one. High-cappers can fall into several catagories; lack of distance off the tee; trouble hitting long irons and approach shot; or poor skills around the greens. Mid-cappers are usually longer off the tee but still have some difficulty w/ long iron approaches and may still struggle a bit around the greens. Handicapping should only address "yardage differences, as anyone [whether an 18 or a +2] can have a very servicable short-game, if they are willing to practice it.

 

By splitting tees, low-cappers (0-5) play the tips.... mid-cappers (6-10) play one box up to help compensate for approach shot yardages.... high cappers (11-18) play the next box up to compensate, even more, for approach yardages. The goal would be to place/leave all players w/ equitable approach-shot distances and then let the outcome/scoring reflect skill.

 

Just a thought.... ;)

 

I hear ya, but our group is a little different. Most of our 'bombers' fall in the middle category. It would be a HUGE advantage for them to be a box up. Most of their shortcomings come from 100 yards and in. I think this will only work in unusual circumstances.