Rule Question

[Tigertw]

I was playing yesterday and something odd happened. Earlier in the day the club had a tourney and my group went out after that was over. On the eigth hole i hit my shot in the bunker, now heres the odd thing, when i looked in the trap i could clearly see the person in it last had no idea how to rake a trap. They just pushed the rake forward creating large piles of sand all over.They were about three to four inches tall. My ball was resting about two inches in front of one of the larger piles. During my swing i just clipped the mound in my backswing and I knew i had hit it so i was penalized the standard two shots. These two shots made a huge difference in the match so i was pretty angry. I was wondering if their is any rule about this. Is there any way i could say that someone raked it incorrectly and not take the penalty? Thank you for any help! :swoon2:

[JeffreySpicoli]

Is there any way i could say that someone raked it incorrectly and not take the penalty?

 

This was discussed at length not long ago.

 

The short answer: You must take the penalty.

[BParis]

Unfortunately, the answer is "No." :swoon2:

[Tigertw]

Is there any way i could say that someone raked it incorrectly and not take the penalty?

 

This was discussed at length not long ago.

 

The short answer: You must take the penalty.

 

 

Oh sorry about that, I didn't see the thread.

Anyway, oh well I gave it a shot... :swoon2:

[JeffreySpicoli]

Is there any way i could say that someone raked it incorrectly and not take the penalty?

 

This was discussed at length not long ago.

 

The short answer: You must take the penalty.

 

 

Oh sorry about that, I didn't see the thread.

Anyway, oh well I gave it a shot... :swoon2:

 

No need to apologize. I mentioned it in case you wanted to look it up.

 

And you did ask a good question!

[scubus]

Good question.

 

It's a hazard, and it doesn't have to be raked. You have to play it as it lies whether it is perfectly raked or a disaster.

[bulldog8b]

Yep, it is a hazard and I think we tend to forget that. As a hazard it is no different than hitting your ball out of the woods, a creek or any other hazard on the course. So, if you get to a bunker and some guy in front of you made a sand castle, sorry, gotta play it.

[billsboy]

I understand playing it as it lies, jerks having played before you and left the bunker in a mess notwithstanding, but why is there a penalty? I would not have thought the OP would be testing the hazard because he clipped it during his swing, and you're obviously allowed to hit the sand while swinging, right? Is it improving the swing path, same as if the ball snuggles up against a tree and you have no backswing?

[BParis]

I understand playing it as it lies, jerks having played before you and left the bunker in a mess notwithstanding, but why is there a penalty? I would not have thought the OP would be testing the hazard because he clipped it during his swing, and you're obviously allowed to hit the sand while swinging, right? Is it improving the swing path, same as if the ball snuggles up against a tree and you have no backswing?

 

The rule is 13-4, and states you can't touch the sand (ground) before make a stroke at the ball, which means if you touch the sand on your backswing, you get penalized two strokes in Stroke Play or lose the hole in Match Play (see red, underlined passage below)...

 

13-4. Ball in Hazard; Prohibited Actions

Except as provided in the Rules, before making a stroke at a ball that is in a hazard (whether a bunker or a water hazard) or that, having been lifted from a hazard, may be dropped or placed in the hazard, the player must not:

a. Test the condition of the hazard or any similar hazard;

b. Touch the ground in the hazard or water in the water hazard with his hand or a club; or

c. Touch or move a loose impediment lying in or touching the hazard.

Exceptions:

1. Provided nothing is done that constitutes testing the condition of the hazard or improves the lie of the ball, there is no penalty if the player (a) touches the ground or loose impediments in any hazard or water in a water hazard as a result of or to prevent falling, in removing an obstruction, in measuring or in marking the position of, retrieving, lifting, placing or replacing a ball under any Rule or (b) places his clubs in a hazard.

2. After making the stroke, if the ball is still in the hazard or has been lifted from the hazard and may be dropped or placed in the hazard, the player may smooth sand or soil in the hazard, provided nothing is done to breach Rule 13-2 with respect to his next stroke. If the ball is outside Rule 14 47 the hazard after the stroke, the player may smooth sand or soil in the hazard without restriction.

3. If the player makes a stroke from a hazard and the ball comes to rest in another hazard, Rule 13-4a does not apply to any subsequent actions taken in the hazard from which the stroke was made.

Note: At any time, including at address or in the backward movement for the stroke, the player may touch, with a club or otherwise, any obstruction, any construction declared by the Committee to be an integral part of the course or any grass, bush, tree or other growing thing.

Penalty For Breach of Rule : Match play — Loss of hole; Stroke play — Two strokes.

[rama5]

sorry to further the question.... Is there ramification if in a tourney I fail to rake? If I were to know that that the players behind me are a threat, I fail to rake, or is there recourse if I "walk through" a trap on the way to the green? Granted this is all against the ethics of golf but I have seen purposeful acts in junior tourneys.

[BParis]

sorry to further the question.... Is there ramification if in a tourney I fail to rake? If I were to know that that the players behind me are a threat, I fail to rake, or is there recourse if I "walk through" a trap on the way to the green? Granted this is all against the ethics of golf but I have seen purposeful acts in junior tourneys.

 

Yes, the player can be disciplined per Rule 33-7 (see below)...

Section I ETIQUETTE; Behavior on the Course

The Spirit of the Game

Golf is played, for the most part, without the supervision of a referee or umpire. The game relies on the integrity of the individual to show consideration for other players and to abide by the Rules. All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be. This is the spirit of the game of golf.

Conclusion; Penalties for Breach

If players follow the guidelines in this Section, it will make the game more enjoyable for everyone. If a player consistently disregards these guidelines during a round or over a period of time to the detriment of others, it is recommended that the Committee consider taking appropriate disciplinary action against the offending player. Such action may, for example, include prohibiting play for a limited time on the course or in a certain number of competitions. This is considered to be justifiable in terms of protecting the interests of the majority of golfers who wish to play in accordance with these guidelines. In the case of a serious breach of etiquette, the Committee may disqualify a player under Rule 33-7.

33-7. Disqualification Penalty; Committee Discretion

A penalty of disqualification may in exceptional individual cases be waived, modified or imposed if the Committee considers such action warranted. Any penalty less than disqualification must not be waived or modified.

If a Committee considers that a player is guilty of a serious breach of etiquette, it may impose a penalty of disqualification under this Rule.

[billsboy]

Thanks, lebanontngolfer. I always thought the backswing was part of the stroke. Guess I should read the rule book!

[BParis]

Thanks, lebanontngolfer. I always thought the backswing was part of the stroke. Guess I should read the rule book!

 

The key wording is making a stroke at the ball. The backswing is not part of "making a stroke at the ball."

 

Perhaps you will remember the couple of instances where Tiger has "pulled up and out" of his swing, but because he did not make a stroke at the ball (i.e., intending to hit the ball), he did not get charged with a stroke (or as we hackers call it... a whiff! :man_in_love: ).

 

Here is the link to the USGA website where the Rules can be found. http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/rules.html

[Giantbear]

Thanks, lebanontngolfer. I always thought the backswing was part of the stroke. Guess I should read the rule book!

 

The key wording is making a stroke at the ball. The backswing is not part of "making a stroke at the ball."

 

Perhaps you will remember the couple of instances where Tiger has "pulled up and out" of his swing, but because he did not make a stroke at the ball (i.e., intending to hit the ball), he did not get charged with a stroke (or as we hackers call it... a whiff! :man_in_love: ).

 

Here is the link to the USGA website where the Rules can be found. http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/rules.html

 

 

 

where is "making a stroke at the ball" defined? after reading this

However, the player incurs no penalty if the action occurs:

 

· in grounding the club lightly when

addressing the ball,

 

· in fairly taking his

stance,

 

· in making a

stroke

or the backward movement of his club for a

stroke

and the

stroke

is made,

 

· in creating or eliminating irregularities of surface within the

teeing ground

(Rule

11-1

) or in removing dew, frost or water from the

teeing ground

, or

 

· on the

putting green

in removing sand and loose soil or in repairing damage (Rule

16-1

).

 

 

<H5 class=gray>13-4. Ball in Hazard; Prohibited Actions</H5>Except as provided in the Rules, before making a stroke at a ball that is in a hazard (whether a bunker or a water hazard) or that, having been lifted from a hazard, may be dropped or placed in the hazard, the player must not:

 

a. Test the condition of the hazard or any similar hazard;

 

b. Touch the ground in the hazard or water in the water hazard with his hand or a club; or

 

c. Touch or move a loose impediment lying in or touching the hazard.

in this link, it seems as though you are allowed to touch the sand in the act of making a stroke which is defined above to include the backward movement of the club. Tiger woods stops his swing and therefore has no intention of making a swing. If the player here was to pull up after hitting the sand, he would be penalized, but by my reading so far, since he was in the act of swing, he should not have been penalized.

[BParis]

Thanks, lebanontngolfer. I always thought the backswing was part of the stroke. Guess I should read the rule book!

 

The key wording is making a stroke at the ball. The backswing is not part of "making a stroke at the ball."

 

Perhaps you will remember the couple of instances where Tiger has "pulled up and out" of his swing, but because he did not make a stroke at the ball (i.e., intending to hit the ball), he did not get charged with a stroke (or as we hackers call it... a whiff! :man_in_love: ).

 

Here is the link to the USGA website where the Rules can be found. http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/rules.html

 

 

 

where is "making a stroke at the ball" defined? after reading this

However, the player incurs no penalty if the action occurs:

 

· in grounding the club lightly when

addressing the ball,

 

· in fairly taking his

stance,

 

· in making a

stroke

or the backward movement of his club for a

stroke

and the

stroke

is made,

 

· in creating or eliminating irregularities of surface within the

teeing ground

(Rule

11-1

) or in removing dew, frost or water from the

teeing ground

, or

 

· on the

putting green

in removing sand and loose soil or in repairing damage (Rule

16-1

).

 

 

<H5 class=gray>13-4. Ball in Hazard; Prohibited Actions</H5>Except as provided in the Rules, before making a stroke at a ball that is in a hazard (whether a bunker or a water hazard) or that, having been lifted from a hazard, may be dropped or placed in the hazard, the player must not:

 

a. Test the condition of the hazard or any similar hazard;

 

b. Touch the ground in the hazard or water in the water hazard with his hand or a club; or

 

c. Touch or move a loose impediment lying in or touching the hazard.

in this link, it seems as though you are allowed to touch the sand in the act of making a stroke which is defined above to include the backward movement of the club. Tiger woods stops his swing and therefore has no intention of making a swing. If the player here was to pull up after hitting the sand, he would be penalized, but by my reading so far, since he was in the act of swing, he should not have been penalized.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The "stroke" does not include "the backward movement of the club." It is defined as the "forward movement of the club with the intention of striking at and moving the ball..." You can read this definition by clicking on the blue highlighted stroke in your link (or here: http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/books/ru...ons.html#Stroke).

 

As for Tiger's actions, he has actually done both in competition: stopped in mid-swing and pulled up during his downswing. The latter one was quite astonishing when first witnessed because you automatically think he "whiffed" but in fact, lifted out of his swing.

[Giantbear]

Thanks, lebanontngolfer. I always thought the backswing was part of the stroke. Guess I should read the rule book!

 

The key wording is making a stroke at the ball. The backswing is not part of "making a stroke at the ball."

 

Perhaps you will remember the couple of instances where Tiger has "pulled up and out" of his swing, but because he did not make a stroke at the ball (i.e., intending to hit the ball), he did not get charged with a stroke (or as we hackers call it... a whiff! :man_in_love: ).

 

Here is the link to the USGA website where the Rules can be found. http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/rules.html

 

 

 

where is "making a stroke at the ball" defined? after reading this

However, the player incurs no penalty if the action occurs:

 

· in grounding the club lightly when

addressing the ball,

 

· in fairly taking his

stance,

 

· in making a

stroke

or the backward movement of his club for a

stroke

and the

stroke

is made,

 

· in creating or eliminating irregularities of surface within the

teeing ground

(Rule

11-1

) or in removing dew, frost or water from the

teeing ground

, or

 

· on the

putting green

in removing sand and loose soil or in repairing damage (Rule

16-1

).

 

 

<H5 class=gray>13-4. Ball in Hazard; Prohibited Actions</H5>Except as provided in the Rules, before making a stroke at a ball that is in a hazard (whether a bunker or a water hazard) or that, having been lifted from a hazard, may be dropped or placed in the hazard, the player must not:

 

a. Test the condition of the hazard or any similar hazard;

 

b. Touch the ground in the hazard or water in the water hazard with his hand or a club; or

 

c. Touch or move a loose impediment lying in or touching the hazard.

in this link, it seems as though you are allowed to touch the sand in the act of making a stroke which is defined above to include the backward movement of the club. Tiger woods stops his swing and therefore has no intention of making a swing. If the player here was to pull up after hitting the sand, he would be penalized, but by my reading so far, since he was in the act of swing, he should not have been penalized.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The "stroke" does not include "the backward movement of the club." It is defined as the "forward movement of the club with the intention of striking at and moving the ball..." You can read this definition by clicking on the blue highlighted stroke in your link (or here: http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/books/ru...ons.html#Stroke).

 

As for Tiger's actions, he has actually done both in competition: stopped in mid-swing and pulled up during his downswing. The latter one was quite astonishing when first witnessed because you automatically think he "whiffed" but in fact, lifted out of his swing.

Ok, i see how a stroke is defined, but the exception to rule 13-2 "· in making a stroke or the backward movement of his club for a stroke and the stroke is made," seems to apply sint he begining of rule 13-4 states "Except as provided in the Rules, before making a stroke at a ball that is in a hazard (whether a bunker or a water hazard) or that, having been lifted from a hazard, may be dropped or placed in the hazard, the player must not:" Seems like the exception applies in the hazzard since it is provide din the rules.

[BParis]

Ok, i see how a stroke is defined, but the exception to rule 13-2 "· in making a stroke or the backward movement of his club for a stroke and the stroke is made," seems to apply sint he begining of rule 13-4 states "Except as provided in the Rules, before making a stroke at a ball that is in a hazard (whether a bunker or a water hazard) or that, having been lifted from a hazard, may be dropped or placed in the hazard, the player must not:" Seems like the exception applies in the hazzard since it is provide din the rules.

 

The last line in 13-2 is "Exception: Ball in hazard - see Rule 13-4." Which means 13-4 applies in this situation. Easy to see how people get very confused with The Rules, huh?

[Giantbear]

Ok, i see how a stroke is defined, but the exception to rule 13-2 "· in making a stroke or the backward movement of his club for a stroke and the stroke is made," seems to apply sint he begining of rule 13-4 states "Except as provided in the Rules, before making a stroke at a ball that is in a hazard (whether a bunker or a water hazard) or that, having been lifted from a hazard, may be dropped or placed in the hazard, the player must not:" Seems like the exception applies in the hazzard since it is provide din the rules.

 

The last line in 13-2 is "Exception: Ball in hazard - see Rule 13-4." Which means 13-4 applies in this situation. Easy to see how people get very confused with The Rules, huh?

I have never doubted the complexity of the rules. I think the first sentence of 13-4 makes it confusing. Why state that if the section is to explain when the rules don't apply

[BParis]

The USGA just tries to keep up with the complexity of the Federal Tax Code... :man_in_love:

[Giantbear]

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uh-oh, now i am in trouble :man_in_love:

[Giantbear]

The USGA just tries to keep up with the complexity of the Federal Tax Code... :)

At least i can make money off of that <----CPA :man_in_love:

[KevCarter]

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uh-oh, now i am in trouble :man_in_love:

 

:) :drinks: :lol:

 

I am just admiring the work lebanontngolfer has done with his answers. Very impressive!

 

Kevin

[atlanta golfer]

Remember that you can always take an unplayable lie, one stroke penalty, and move the ball WITHIN the trap to a better place, either two clublengths not nearer the hole, or directly back in line with the pin, or thirdly, go back to where your original shot was played. If the place you end up is that bad, as you describe, or perhaps right under a huge lip, or buried, one stroke may not be a bad penalty to get a better situation within the hazard. The golfer alone determines if the ball is unplayable.

[BParis]

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uh-oh, now i am in trouble :man_in_love:

 

:drinks: :lol: :lol:

 

I am just admiring the work lebanontngolfer has done with his answers. Very impressive!

 

Kevin

 

I can only hope to be half as intelligent on the Rules as you, Kevin! All hail the Rules Guru! :)

 

Cheers!

Bill

[ram22592]

Is there any penalty for, when addressing a ball that is partially submerged in the water of a water hazard that has grass blades that are coming out of the water, you touch those blades with your club?

 

It seems kind of reidiculous to have to hold your club a foot aboe the ball to avoid touching some reids.

[KevCarter]

Is there any penalty for, when addressing a ball that is partially submerged in the water of a water hazard that has grass blades that are coming out of the water, you touch those blades with your club?

 

It seems kind of reidiculous to have to hold your club a foot aboe the ball to avoid touching some reids.

 

Note to 13-4

 

Note: At any time, including at address or in the backward movement for the stroke, the player may touch, with a club or otherwise, any obstruction, any construction declared by the Committee to be an integral part of the course or any grass, bush, tree or other growing thing.

[KevCarter]

4 User(s) are reading this topic (0 Guests and 1 Anonymous Users)

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uh-oh, now i am in trouble :man_in_love:

 

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

I am just admiring the work lebanontngolfer has done with his answers. Very impressive!

 

Kevin

 

I can only hope to be half as intelligent on the Rules as you, Kevin! All hail the Rules Guru! :drinks:

 

Cheers!

Bill

 

Thank you very much Bill. :)

 

Kevin

[Giantbear]

Is there any penalty for, when addressing a ball that is partially submerged in the water of a water hazard that has grass blades that are coming out of the water, you touch those blades with your club?

 

It seems kind of reidiculous to have to hold your club a foot aboe the ball to avoid touching some reids.

 

Note to 13-4

 

Note: At any time, including at address or in the backward movement for the stroke, the player may touch, with a club or otherwise, any obstruction, any construction declared by the Committee to be an integral part of the course or any grass, bush, tree or other growing thing.

That would seem to indicate you could ground your club in a hazzard as long as the club sits on grass and not the actual ground. Always though that was a no-no.

[BParis]

Is there any penalty for, when addressing a ball that is partially submerged in the water of a water hazard that has grass blades that are coming out of the water, you touch those blades with your club?

 

It seems kind of reidiculous to have to hold your club a foot aboe the ball to avoid touching some reids.

 

Note to 13-4

 

Note: At any time, including at address or in the backward movement for the stroke, the player may touch, with a club or otherwise, any obstruction, any construction declared by the Committee to be an integral part of the course or any grass, bush, tree or other growing thing.

That would seem to indicate you could ground your club in a hazzard as long as the club sits on grass and not the actual ground. Always though that was a no-no.

 

Rule 13-4 allows you to "touch" the grass, but it does not allow for the club to be set on it (grounded). To do so would be an incorrect interpretation of the Rule. The club's weight cannot be borne upon the grass even if it is between the dirt/earth and the club.

[KevCarter]

Is there any penalty for, when addressing a ball that is partially submerged in the water of a water hazard that has grass blades that are coming out of the water, you touch those blades with your club?

 

It seems kind of reidiculous to have to hold your club a foot aboe the ball to avoid touching some reids.

 

Note to 13-4

 

Note: At any time, including at address or in the backward movement for the stroke, the player may touch, with a club or otherwise, any obstruction, any construction declared by the Committee to be an integral part of the course or any grass, bush, tree or other growing thing.

That would seem to indicate you could ground your club in a hazzard as long as the club sits on grass and not the actual ground. Always though that was a no-no.

 

Rule 13-4 allows you to "touch" the grass, but it does not allow for the club to be set on it (grounded). To do so would be an incorrect interpretation of the Rule. The club's weight cannot be borne upon the grass even if it is between the dirt/earth and the club.

 

Here is the decision to back you up.

 

18-2b/5 When Club Grounded in Grass

 

Q. When is a club considered grounded in long grass?

 

A. When the grass is compressed to the point where it will support the weight of the club.