Hogan's Disorder

[Dariusz J.]

Just a weekend topic...:)

To start the thread I would like to present to you this drawing from '5 Lessons':



We are blessed to have here in the Forum a lot of finest teaching pros, avid swing motion theoretists and real players. Therefore, it would be a great thing, I believe, to discuss why noone on this planet was or is able to duplicate the look of Mr.Hogan from the above Mr.Andrisani's drawing. The drawing is correct, such a position can be easily observed in good quality vids of post-secret Hogan's swings.
There are a few questions associated to this topic as follows:
- how Hogan's rear elbow (what was in a down position with his humerus perpendicular to the ground was able to go forward at transition ? (watching DTL vids);
- why Hogan's hands were so low at this stage while biophysics tells us that they should be higher so that the elbow could go down and forward ?
- how Hogan was able to achieve this position that cannot be duplicated by noone else, including many great players and teachers ? (if I am mistaken, present the evidence, please)
- finally, why Hogan need such a position of his rear elbow ? ( :) )

Well, the last one is very simple, but I prefer to know opinions of gurus from the Forum first. To be clear, please do not present me Sergio's, Tiger's or Immelman's swings as an example of the same rear elbow action since it is vastly different. Also, I would like to stay away from arguments linking this fact to the lead side pulling or CoG transfer.

Why did I title the whole thread "Hogan's Disorder" ? Because it is very easy to duplicate the look from the drawing, BUT WITH ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PLANE OF CLAVICLES AND SPINE, i.e. when the lead elbow is higher than the rear one. Biokinetics tells us that the most efficient rotary motion is being performed while a distal parts (whole arms or part of arms = forearms) tend to work perpendicularily to the spine. In case of Mr.Hogan, the forearms tend to worked this way, what suggests that the humerus is still parallel to the spine. Hogan seemed to ANTICIPATE this perpendicularity of his right forearm earlier and he let/forced/wanted his right elbow move forward BEFORE IT WAS REALLY NECESSARY, not in synch, someone could say.
The mental idea is very clear, however, I am interested in opinions about physics of this motion. I wonder if I hear similar answers to my ideas that, for obvious reasons, I do not want to reveal now. :)

Cheers

[HoganAfficianado]

how Hogan was able to achieve this position that cannot be duplicated by noone else, including many great players and teachers ?

 

I think the reason that not too many people can achieve the same positions Hogan did in his downswing is because his backswing is very different and not taught for the majority of teachers. I think his low plane at the top and extreme set "angle" of the wrist while still maintaining width had a lot to do with it. You can see clearly in that photo that his right arm is tight to his body as where he was at the top of the swing. He didn't have to bring the elbow down that far because it was already in a lowish position to start from. From there it was pure rotation. I'm not gonna say no one achieves his positions because spider is pretty darn close.

[Dariusz J.]

how Hogan was able to achieve this position that cannot be duplicated by noone else, including many great players and teachers ?

 

I think the reason that not too many people can achieve the same positions Hogan did in his downswing is because his backswing is very different and not taught for the majority of teachers. I think his low plane at the top and extreme set "angle" of the wrist while still maintaining width had a lot to do with it. You can see clearly in that photo that his right arm is tight to his body as where he was at the top of the swing. He didn't have to bring the elbow down that far because it was already in a lowish position to start from. From there it was pure rotation. I'm not gonna say no one achieves his positions because spider is pretty darn close.

 

 

So, do you tink his RH elbow position is a consequence of an unorthodox backswing ? why ? and why you regard his backswing as so odd ? because he was low plane swinger ? explain, please.

 

BTW, show me Spider FO and DTL. I saw some guys that was almost identical to Hogan FO but hell different DTL :)

 

I thought that was me for a second..LoL

 

Can we all see a vid/pic of yours for a comparison if you don't mind ? unless LOL is a real LOL ;)

 

Also Hogan lagged/laided off the club with out changing planes. He made this happen by the increase bow in the back of his right hand at the top of his swing in transition to the downward move. Watch the video and in the middle of it you will see Hogan face on look at his club as he starts to switch to his forward motion the club face starts to point to the sky, (you will see it sparkle) but the club never re-routes. The movement of the right elbow and the cupping of the back wrist is how this is achieved one makes the other and is not done by any player today or ever..

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fsl7aozegEM

 

So, reasumming, do you think Hogan's RH elbow forward move is a consequence of uncupping of the lead wrist ?

 

Cheers

[martinez]

To start the thread I would like to present to you this drawing from '5 Lessons':

 

 

 

We are blessed to have here in the Forum a lot of finest teaching pros, avid swing motion theoretists and real players. Therefore, it would be a great thing, I believe, to discuss why noone on this planet was or is able to duplicate the look of Mr.Hogan from the above Mr.Andrisani's drawing. The drawing is correct, such a position can be easily observed in good quality vids of post-secret Hogan's swings.

There are a few questions associated to this topic as follows:

- how Hogan's rear elbow (what was in a down position with his humerus perpendicular to the ground was able to go forward at transition ? (watching DTL vids);

- why Hogan's hands were so low at this stage while biophysics tells us that they should be higher so that the elbow could go down and forward ?

- how Hogan was able to achieve this position that cannot be duplicated by noone else, including many great players and teachers ? (if I am mistaken, present the evidence, please)

- finally, why Hogan need such a position of his rear elbow ? ( :) )

 

Well, the last one is very simple, but I prefer to know opinions of gurus from the Forum first. To be clear, please do not present me Sergio's, Tiger's or Immelman's swings as an example of the same rear elbow action since it is vastly different. Also, I would like to stay away from arguments linking this fact to the lead side pulling or CoG transfer.

 

Why did I title the whole thread "Hogan's Disorder" ? Because it is very easy to duplicate the look from the drawing, BUT WITH ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PLANE OF CLAVICLES AND SPINE, i.e. when the lead elbow is higher than the rear one. Biokinetics tells us that the most efficient rotary motion is being performed while a distal parts (whole arms or part of arms = forearms) tend to work perpendicularily to the spine. In case of Mr.Hogan, the forearms tend to worked this way, what suggests that the humerus is still parallel to the spine. Hogan seemed to ANTICIPATE this perpendicularity of his right forearm earlier and he let/forced/wanted his right elbow move forward BEFORE IT WAS REALLY NECESSARY, not in synch, someone could say.

The mental idea is very clear, however, I am interested in opinions about physics of this motion. I wonder if I hear similar answers to my ideas that, for obvious reasons, I do not want to reveal now. :)

 

Cheers

 

I'm not that far away from that position. I realize that his elbow is more below his left arm than mine. I just see that as general tightness in my hips, hamstrings and core that means I am not as deep off the ball as he is. Maybe you can see more of a difference with your eye, if so please share.

 

 

 

Down the line......I know what I need to work on here. What do you think DJ?

 

[martinez]

Thought this was interesting..

 

Precisely. Adding loft to to blade, the leading edge up. You have to have depth in your swing to make that move and have it come from your core into your spine, as opposed to just manipulating it with your hands. Mr. Hogan and Moe both had all the depth they could get. It feels like your doing the limbo under the plane. I posted a similar feeling in the epic 111 page Sevam1 thread.

[HoganAfficianado]

I just said his backswing was different, not so odd, different can be good. You just don't see that many people with a backswing similar to Mr. Hogan these days, thats all. Don't take this the wrong way, he arrived at a great spot at the top where he could just unwind without any manipulation of the hands.

[dfw1500]

Hey darius, The reason for the right arm being so close to the body and in this position is as follows IMOP......

 

He started off in an upright position with his hands held "high"/arched this meant that as he started the club back it went more inside/around/deep almost immediately, this brought the right arm close to the body......he also rotated the left arm almost as soon as the takeaway began....this then got the club to move across him much more and into a deeper/flatter/shallower position.....at the top the elbow and right arm are located much closer to the right side of the body than any other player....(I am very similar to this at the top due to my height etc)

 

He then starts the downswing/transition and due to how close the arm was at the top especially the humerus, it does not have far to "move" to be connected with the body, the late setting of the club in the backswing is a BIG factor in how the club moves in the downswing.....his hands were so low at this point due to the fact that they are so low at the top of the backswing ......at the top the clubhead was NOT supported by the arms and therefore because the mass of the club is the clubhead and he cleared his body so aggressively AROUND this worked the arms OVER the path they went back on BUT due to how close the right arm was at the top and how well Mr Hogan transitioned the arm stays close to the body and the shaft "lays off" even further the hands ends up so low guaranteeing the inside attack of the clubhead as the face was working parallel to the plane, this placed the face in a position that no matter how hard he SQUARED it, it could never come close to a hook.

 

The reason the arms move forwards is due to the fact that they have gone so shallow in the backswing and are then forced to go OVER the plane that they went back on so as to attack from the correct angles and this pattern tends to happen with rotational golfswings........this can be seen in Ken Venturi's action which in backswing is very similar to Mr Hogan's.....

 

Mr Hogan had the club in this position to allow him to strike the ball with his desired 3 "right sides" as from here he was totally connected and could rotate through with everything he owned and the club would square up with centripetal acceleration as the left armpit re connected itself and the butt of the club was pulled left squaring the face.

 

A reason many will not look exactly like Mr Hogan is that he has some idiosyncracies that were "his" quirks......like the high hands and vertical setup that were "his" way of doing things, these all contributed to what happened later in the swing ;)

 

Cheers Dan

[pigglet222]

Tom Bertrand might note how Hogan instructed to keep your arms as close together throughout the entire swing - something not taught by today's instructors...

[Dariusz J.]

Just joking about my swing.

 

 

As for the elbow motion because of the lead wrist No! It is the rear wrist right hand, and the move that makes the club face point to the sky at the transition to the forward swing. The cupping of the right wrist makes the right elbow move forward and opens the face. If you look at his shorter swings what I call his short iron swings his elbow does not move forward and his plane move's just alittle forward toward the ball on the down swing. Watch his hands on the short swings in the video.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fsl7aozegEM...re=channel_page

 

Thought this was interesting..

 

Texan, I like your answers as well as the axe analogy. However:

 

a. right wrist action - what caused such an action of the wrist at transition? I would not believe it was deliberate, if it really was the "culprit" it had to be unintentional, IMO.

 

b. with wedges and short irons the action of the rear elbow is not seen because the elbow did not go that far back due to the fact that backswing was shorter. With longer clubs it looked like this:

 

 

 

c. axe analogy - great, but such an action is being performed on a completely different plane; you could hit the ball only if it lied half meter up in relation to your feet.

 

Cheers

[Dariusz J.]

I'm not that far away from that position. I realize that his elbow is more below his left arm than mine. I just see that as general tightness in my hips, hamstrings and core that means I am not as deep off the ball as he is. Maybe you can see more of a difference with your eye, if so please share.

 

 

 

Down the line......I know what I need to work on here. What do you think DJ?

 

 

Martinez, you have a great swing motion judging from those pics (BTW, great head position for a rear-eye dominant golfer - just a model to copy), however, it is not what Hogan did.

Note that your elbow is in a great position (DTL) with your humerus parallel to your spine, i.e. without a flying right elbow. It is exactly how it should look like from a biomechanical point of view. Hogan's elbow moved forward at transition anyhow just like he wanted to be a step forward. This is what differs you (and all of good rotary swingers) from Hogan.

 

 

Thought this was interesting..

 

Precisely. Adding loft to to blade, the leading edge up. You have to have depth in your swing to make that move and have it come from your core into your spine, as opposed to just manipulating it with your hands. Mr. Hogan and Moe both had all the depth they could get. It feels like your doing the limbo under the plane. I posted a similar feeling in the epic 111 page Sevam1 thread.

 

Well, as I said to TG in tmy above post, the plane is completely different. It is very easy to copy, however, with the lead shoulder joint up, not down.

 

Cheers

[Dariusz J.]

I just said his backswing was different, not so odd, different can be good. You just don't see that many people with a backswing similar to Mr. Hogan these days, thats all. Don't take this the wrong way, he arrived at a great spot at the top where he could just unwind without any manipulation of the hands.

 

 

HA, I understand what you say, and I agree to you 100%. The implications of a low swing plane are usually excellent and it surely helped Hogan in performing the rear elbow down positions, however, it would not explain why his rear elbow moved forward. Possibility of automatic unwinding from his great position on top alone also does not explain why he needed his rear elbow action and how it happened.

 

Cheers

[Dariusz J.]

Hey darius, The reason for the right arm being so close to the body and in this position is as follows IMOP......

 

He started off in an upright position with his hands held "high"/arched this meant that as he started the club back it went more inside/around/deep almost immediately, this brought the right arm close to the body......he also rotated the left arm almost as soon as the takeaway began....this then got the club to move across him much more and into a deeper/flatter/shallower position.....at the top the elbow and right arm are located much closer to the right side of the body than any other player....(I am very similar to this at the top due to my height etc)

 

He then starts the downswing/transition and due to how close the arm was at the top especially the humerus, it does not have far to "move" to be connected with the body, the late setting of the club in the backswing is a BIG factor in how the club moves in the downswing.....his hands were so low at this point due to the fact that they are so low at the top of the backswing ......at the top the clubhead was NOT supported by the arms and therefore because the mass of the club is the clubhead and he cleared his body so aggressively AROUND this worked the arms OVER the path they went back on BUT due to how close the right arm was at the top and how well Mr Hogan transitioned the arm stays close to the body and the shaft "lays off" even further the hands ends up so low guaranteeing the inside attack of the clubhead as the face was working parallel to the plane, this placed the face in a position that no matter how hard he SQUARED it, it could never come close to a hook.

 

The reason the arms move forwards is due to the fact that they have gone so shallow in the backswing and are then forced to go OVER the plane that they went back on so as to attack from the correct angles and this pattern tends to happen with rotational golfswings........this can be seen in Ken Venturi's action which in backswing is very similar to Mr Hogan's.....

 

Mr Hogan had the club in this position to allow him to strike the ball with his desired 3 "right sides" as from here he was totally connected and could rotate through with everything he owned and the club would square up with centripetal acceleration as the left armpit re connected itself and the butt of the club was pulled left squaring the face.

 

A reason many will not look exactly like Mr Hogan is that he has some idiosyncracies that were "his" quirks......like the high hands and vertical setup that were "his" way of doing things, these all contributed to what happened later in the swing ;)

 

Cheers Dan

 

Dan, it is a great description of Hogan's action and I agree vastly to your analysis. What I can't agree is that Hogan's rear elbow was not so close to his body at the top with longer clubs and despite this fact he brought it down, as you said, but also FORWARD. Look at those two pics:

 

 

 

 

 

IMO, it cannot be explained neither via CP force nor via high hands at setup (although both things are very true).

 

Cheers

[Dariusz J.]

Tom Bertrand might note how Hogan instructed to keep your arms as close together throughout the entire swing - something not taught by today's instructors...

 

Pigglet, yes, Hogan wanted to keep both arms (specifically, elbows) as close as possible together. If you look at the pictures I attached in my above posts, it really looks like Hogan let his elbows be spreaded away (maybe due to loading power) while the first move/thought after transition was to bring them as close as possible again. But do you think that this thought was so "strong" to cause it in reality ?

I can duplicate Hogan's backswing without any problems (with due proportions, of course) thanks to Bio-K grip and presetting of elbow joints and my elbows are not far fro each other (see Martinez's great swing action), however, all this will not cause my body to force my rear elbow go forward.

 

Cheers

[magnum184]

Dariusz,

 

Does my maximum twist or rolling move of the left arm through transition not cause the right elbow to move forward?

 

Because, that motion heavily influences the right arm during the whole process.

 

If you hold your right arm out in front of you, with a 90 degree angle, and try to rotate the lower arm counter-clockwise to the maximum, eventually it begins to pull on the upper arm going into the shoulder socket when it is reaching that maximum stage. Watch what it does to the elbow. Starts to move it to the left, doesn't it?

[Dariusz J.]

Dariusz,

 

Does my maximum twist or rolling move of the left arm through transition not cause the right elbow to move forward?

 

Because, that motion heavily influences the right arm during the whole process.

 

If you hold your right arm out in front of you, with a 90 degree angle, and try to rotate the lower arm counter-clockwise * to the maximum, eventually it begins to pull on the upper arm going into the shoulder socket when it is reaching that maximum stage. Watch what it does to the elbow. Starts to move it to the left, doesn't it?

 

* I believe you meant clockwise, right ?

 

Magnum, what you said is correct, the maximum rotation does not allow the rear elbow go into the "flying elbow" position at the top, as well as brings the elbow joint close to the body. Hovewer, I did not notice it causes the elbow to go very visibly forward (i.e. to the North) just after transition.

Nevertheless, you have raised a very interesting point - let's suppose Hogan still was turning the forearm AFTER TRANSITION (say, achieved the limitation in the forearm turn at the beginning of the downswing). There is only one doubt now - how else he could have his lead wrist cupped at the end of the backswing if the limitation wasn't achieved yet ? ....just thinking aloud :)

 

Cheers

[Dariusz J.]

Darius-

 

I want to say this in a way that is not discrediting your research or swing beliefs so do not take this in a bad way. I know for a fact 100% that Hogan used the right hand in the golf swing from (Mike Wright, Marty Fleckman, Jim Hardy, Jackie Burke and a few others who knew him). I did not understand that because I had always been told to lead with the left and it puzzled me why Hogan hit the golf ball with his FULL RIGHT SIDE.. Watching video and photos and talking with other you could clearly see that at the top of his back swing that the right wrist started to bow opening the club face, and moving his right elbow toward the ball. As he started down he increased that angle in the right wrist while turning out of the way and finishing left with the club well below his left shoulder. It is a well know fact that Hogan's left side was very badly damaged from his accident and hindered his golf swing, thus leading him to learn to hit the golf ball with his right side. If you make a back swing like Hogan and try to increase the angle in the back of the right wrist you can see that it opens the face of the club, and moves the right elbow forward. Watching any of his video with short irons you can see that the elbow does not go forward because like you said it does not go deep enough behind him. On the same note if you watch his hands they move forward a bit because he is still trying to bow the right wrist alittle and gives the appearance he is switching plane just a little from the hands moving forward in a bow move.

 

I know it is hard to except what I say as fact but keep an open mind and try what I am telling you to in front of a mirror or on video as just a shadow move in slow motion. I would really like for Slice to chime in on this topic because I am sure that he has talked with Mike Wright before, and I know for a fact he Knows Marty Fleckman. Like I said though be opened minded and know that I am not trying to disprove you, every one learns from the other's here in some way.

 

 

Texan, first, why do you think that what you said is contrary to my research or believs ? :) It is not in any case. My mind is very open all the time and I like very much various trials to solve dilemmas.

The Biokinetic Thread was aimed at building simplest possible automatic swing motion based on limitations. I think in those categories and, I admit, it is my constant fault that I try to find automatism everywhere, especially in Mr.Hogan's swing. That's why I asked what caused his rear wrist to bow down.

 

Having said that, I want to be very clear now - I do not think that Hogan's right elbow forward move is something that is necessary from a biomechanical point of view. Au contre, I do think that the rear humerus should be parallel to the spine while the rear forearm should act perpendicularily to the spine at impact - biokinetic wonder of impact posirtion. Hogan's move of the rear elbow is something that disorders the biomechanical picture of a perfect motion in synch. That's also why I called this move "one step ahead anticipation".

I would like to know its mechanism, because IT WAS HOGAN. And because IT WAS ONLY HOGAN who did this. OTOH, I cannot answer if we all should sacrifice our time to answer this dilemma instead of doing better things.

 

Cheers

[Dariusz J.]

Have you ever tried Jeff Evans little gizmo you put on a golf grip? I think that it might benifit your learning proccess in Hogan's swing, and the point I am trying to make about the right wrist bow.

 

Nope, I have not. Why do you think it should help to understand Hogan's swing ? And what relation has an exaggerated use of #3 PP with the current discussion about rear elbow motion ?

If it has, all TGM players with lower planes would swing like Hogan. They do not, I am afraid. :)

 

Cheers

[magnum184]

Dariusz,

 

Does my maximum twist or rolling move of the left arm through transition not cause the right elbow to move forward?

 

Because, that motion heavily influences the right arm during the whole process.

 

If you hold your right arm out in front of you, with a 90 degree angle, and try to rotate the lower arm counter-clockwise * to the maximum, eventually it begins to pull on the upper arm going into the shoulder socket when it is reaching that maximum stage. Watch what it does to the elbow. Starts to move it to the left, doesn't it?

 

* I believe you meant clockwise, right ?

 

Magnum, what you said is correct, the maximum rotation does not allow the rear elbow go into the "flying elbow" position at the top, as well as brings the elbow joint close to the body. Hovewer, I did not notice it causes the elbow to go very visibly forward (i.e. to the North) just after transition.

Nevertheless, you have raised a very interesting point - let's suppose Hogan still was turning the forearm AFTER TRANSITION (say, achieved the limitation in the forearm turn at the beginning of the downswing). There is only one doubt now - how else he could have his lead wrist cupped at the end of the backswing if the limitation wasn't achieved yet ? ....just thinking aloud :)

 

Cheers

 

 

No, I had it right the first time. I think. LOL.

 

I should have described the 90 degree angle better. That angle is at the elbow. To max it out, you have to keep going past the stress. You have to dig deep and feel it all the way until it hits the rotator cuff. It, the elbow, tries to move to the left, which would be forward from a DTL view of a swing.

 

I've been experimenting with certain grip pressures within certain fingers on certain parts of the club that seem to have a significant effect on whether the cup desolves or maintains through transition. Been there yet?

 

What is interesting about having the trailing elbow so much lower than the leading elbow is the way it coordinates the right shoulder/lats/rotator cuff/etc... It all kind of...................SHRINKS. I sometimes think this is why some choose to describe the action as a left sided dominated swing. The right side being like that, at that moment, feels VERY WEAK. But, it is waiting to be released and it will be released VERY LATE when it is ultimately stretched out again. That's why I have stated before that I feel the right side VERY LATE in the swing, like after impact. You can see the right side being stretched out again once the club begins to exit the body as it unwinds. Anyway, it's a great leveraged move.

[pigglet222]

Tom Bertrand might note how Hogan instructed to keep your arms as close together throughout the entire swing - something not taught by today's instructors...

 

Pigglet, yes, Hogan wanted to keep both arms (specifically, elbows) as close as possible together. If you look at the pictures I attached in my above posts, it really looks like Hogan let his elbows be spreaded away (maybe due to loading power) while the first move/thought after transition was to bring them as close as possible again. But do you think that this thought was so "strong" to cause it in reality ?

I can duplicate Hogan's backswing without any problems (with due proportions, of course) thanks to Bio-K grip and presetting of elbow joints and my elbows are not far fro each other (see Martinez's great swing action), however, all this will not cause my body to force my rear elbow go forward.

 

Cheers

 

I believe it depends on whether you're looking at pre or post-accident photos/videos of Hogan's swing... Post-accident, he mentions how he wasn't as physically able to keep his arms so close together throughout the swing as he would have liked... Had he been physically able to, he would keep the arms together as close as possible. Sort of like, "do as I say, not as I do."

 

Combine the following: keeping of the arms close together throughout the swing + letting the arms get a "free ride" down from the top (i.e. hip turn drops the arms into the slot), and you've got what you see pictured in Hogan's downswing.

[Dariusz J.]

I should have described the 90 degree angle better. That angle is at the elbow. To max it out, you have to keep going passed the stress. You have to dig deep and feel it all the way until it hits the rotator cuff. It, the elbow, tries to move to the left, which would be forward from a DTL view of a swing.

 

I've been experimenting with certain grip pressures within certain fingers on certain parts of the club that seem to have a significant effect on whether the cup desolves or maintains through transition. Been there yet?

 

What is interesting about having the trailing elbow so much lower than the leading elbow is the way it coordinates the right shoulder/lats/rotator cuff/etc... It all kind of...................SHRINKS. I sometimes think this is why some choose to describe the action as a left sided dominated swing. The right side being like that, at that moment, feels VERY WEAK. But, it is waiting to be released and it will be released VERY LATE when it is ultimately stretched out again. That's why I have stated before that I feel the right side VERY LATE in the swing. Anyway, it's a great leveraged move.

 

Magnum, care to elaborate more ? Maybe some exemplary pics ? You have my (and I think everyone's) full attention, mate.

 

Cheers

[Dariusz J.]

I believe it depends on whether you're looking at pre or post-accident photos/videos of Hogan's swing... Post-accident, he mentions how he wasn't as physically able to keep his arms so close together throughout the swing as he would have liked... Had he been physically able to, he would keep the arms together as close as possible. Sort of like, "do as I say, not as I do."

 

Combine the following: keeping of the arms close together throughout the swing + letting the arms get a "free ride" down from the top (i.e. hip turn drops the arms into the slot), and you've got what you see pictured in Hogan's downswing.

 

Pigglet, I agree to you as regards Hogan's post-accident swing problems.

So, you are of the opinion that Hogan's rear elbow at the top (when it was away from the body) was the closest possible distance between his both elbows (due to health problems) ? If so, why he was able to diminish this distance considerably just after transition and that's why the rear elbow moved forward ? Because he dropped the arms lower due to hip action and if his arms were lower he could just have both elbows closer to each other ?

 

If the above is true (it's no doubt an interestind theory) why NOONE on this planet could or can look like Hogan in the downswing phase ? The idea of having both elbows as close as possible to each other is widely known, therefore, I assume that someone (from millions of Hogan followers, including top Tour players) should be able to copy it, no ?

 

Cheers

[Jeff Evans]

The right forearm supports the Sweet Spot Plane and the #3 Pressure Point senses the clubhead lag.

Mr. Hogan owned his motion and could create what ever shot he need.

As far as TGMers goes they choose their plane angles and the way they make their motions they are not trying to copy a style they only what to own their motion like all the great ball strikers. BTW Mr. Hogan rear elbow is like that because he chose it to be there and it was correct for him.

The #3 Pressure Point Trainer just allows the player who may have never felt their loading, storage, delivery and release to feel it.

 

Dariusz,

If you would like to try one out just PM me!

[Poke]

I might be lost, but it appears to me that Hogan is laying the shaft off while simultaneously closing the face to the arc as his hands start to transition. It feels like you can do this by either increasing the cup with the right hand while tugging the shaft back down the plane with your right index finger or by starting to bow the left wrist as it maxes out its rotation with a little tug back down the plane with your left index finger or a combination of the above.

 

As long as you’re deepening your angles (upper left arm connection to the chest, lag of the club head) and not casting from the top, this move back down the plane (not a drop of the elbow to the side) will bring your right elbow forward and down in front of the right hip ahead of the shaft, loading the rotator cuff with tension and power.

 

 

 

 

 

Disclaimer—these are just feels swinging my 9iron indoors.

 

 

 

Poke

[Dariusz J.]

I would like Jeff to answer but I will give my view. The hard half circle attaches to the grip and the right fore finger rest on it as a trigger. It makes you use the right hand more and increases the angle in the back of the right wrist. The product is simple but very effective, I will let Jeff chime in more about all the benifit since he made it.

 

As for your other question #3 PP I do not understand.

 

Texan, what you just have desribed, and the purpose of Jeff's PBS, is to induce the sensation of very important grip pressure point exerted by the rear hand index trigger finger, called in the TGM lingo no.3 Pressure Point (#3 PP). If I am not precise, Jeff will correct me, I guess.

To be honest, I believe this tool is an excellent one for some large a group of golfers, especially those with RH strong grip. However, RH weak grip has enough big of the sensation of an effective use of #3 PP. This is one of the reasons why e.g. Bio-K Grip is such a great one to use. BTW, Hogan had a very weak RH grip, too. :)

I simply do not see any biomechanical link between the #3 PP and Hogan's rear elbow motion. But it does not mean that it is true. So, if you (or Jeff or TGM experts) can prove such a correlation - I am all ears.

 

Cheers

[magnum184]

I should have described the 90 degree angle better. That angle is at the elbow. To max it out, you have to keep going past the stress. You have to dig deep and feel it all the way until it hits the rotator cuff. It, the elbow, tries to move to the left, which would be forward from a DTL view of a swing.

 

I've been experimenting with certain grip pressures within certain fingers on certain parts of the club that seem to have a significant effect on whether the cup desolves or maintains through transition. Been there yet?

 

What is interesting about having the trailing elbow so much lower than the leading elbow is the way it coordinates the right shoulder/lats/rotator cuff/etc... It all kind of...................SHRINKS. I sometimes think this is why some choose to describe the action as a left sided dominated swing. The right side being like that, at that moment, feels VERY WEAK. But, it is waiting to be released and it will be released VERY LATE when it is ultimately stretched out again. That's why I have stated before that I feel the right side VERY LATE in the swing. Anyway, it's a great leveraged move.

 

Magnum, care to elaborate more ? Maybe some exemplary pics ? You have my (and I think everyone's) full attention, mate.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

I'm just saying the rolling of the face as fast and far as possible ultimately brings the left hand, wrist, and entire arm into the picture. That, in return, will heavily influence the right hand, wrist, and entire arm as it folds. In order to max it all out, you have to MAX IT OUT. I keep on TRYING to max it out through transition. Actually, I am TRYING to max it out as long as I can, until the PIVOT catches the darned thing and I'm on plane (on your elbow plane and on or near my OSP) and ready to just rip through the darned ball. Maxing it out causes my entire right arm to try and twist all the way to my rotator cuff. Now, we know you can't twist the darned elbow, but feel is there in the rotator cuff. And the elbow moves a shade forward through transition. Like the elbow is trying to help it twist by moving forward. Just that rolling of the face as far and as fast as I can gives me that low swing, short arm, full wrist set, on plane and not very far off the OSP, close looking tucked elbow, slightly tucked in looking right side, ability to house future lag. All that, one thought.

 

Now, I should know what is coming next. How do you not lay the club off doing this extraordinary bizarre move? To me, that is where the cup kind of saves it. THE CUPPED WRIST SET sets the club early enough to limit the amount of time the club has to get TOO LAYED OFF. And it's coupled with a low swing. Even better.

 

As far as the grip pressure and the reactions to the face. I wish I wouldn't have mentioned it. I don't feel too comfortable declaring it because how on earth can I be for sure except what I see in my ball flight. And now that the pressure is on me........

 

If I focus on firming up the last three fingers on the left hand grip and and hardly using the right hand forefinger and thumb................the cup stays quite a bit longer. If I focus on more pressure with the forefinger and thumb of the right hand, the cup disappears through transition. Why? I couldn't tell you unfortunately. Maybe some other muscles are activated.........who the heck knows? But what is further interesting is the fact that one makes my ball curve RIGHT and the other LEFT. Without me manipulating the club with my hands anymore.

[Asleep]

Continually informative and thought provoking threads, Dariusz.....thanks.

[Dariusz J.]

The right forearm supports the Sweet Spot Plane and the #3 Pressure Point senses the clubhead lag.

Mr. Hogan owned his motion and could create what ever shot he need.

As far as TGMers goes they choose their plane angles and the way they make their motions they are not trying to copy a style they only what to own their motion like all the great ball strikers. BTW Mr. Hogan rear elbow is like that because he chose it to be there and it was correct for him.

The #3 Pressure Point Trainer just allows the player who may have never felt their loading, storage, delivery and release to feel it.

 

Dariusz,

If you would like to try one out just PM me!

 

Jeff, that's why we never agree - because you believe that there are zillion patterns that bring the same results and I believe in better and worse patterns. :) That's great because it is always a possibility of exchanging arguments and create great discussion that everyone can benefit from.

 

Thanks for your invitation to test your invention, i.e. PBS. Frankly, I think it is a great product that can help a lot of golfers, escpecially casters and flippers to induce a proper sensation of lag and clubface. However, I am not sure if weak RH grip players can benefit from it, moreover, can even use it physically since there is very small room between trigger finger and the shaft.

 

Cheers

[Dariusz J.]

I might be lost, but it appears to me that Hogan is laying the shaft off while simultaneously closing the face to the arc as his hands start to transition. It feels like you can do this by either increasing the cup with the right hand while tugging the shaft back down the plane with your right index finger or by starting to bow the left wrist as it maxes out its rotation with a little tug back down the plane with your left index finger or a combination of the above.

 

As long as you’re deepening your angles (upper left arm connection to the chest, lag of the club head) and not casting from the top, this move back down the plane (not a drop of the elbow to the side) will bring your right elbow forward and down in front of the right hip ahead of the shaft, loading the rotator cuff with tension and power.

 

 

 

Poke

 

 

I am not a TGM guy and do not believe in the method, not saying that it might not be good for some folks. I know that Hogan hand a weak right hand, I was talking about grip pressure is stronger in Hogan's right hand than in the left because of his hitting the golf shot with his right side.

 

Have you stood up were ever you maybe right now, and took your hands to the top and tried bowing the back of you right wrist to watch the club face open and the right elbow move forward?

 

 

Look at the face of the club in this photo, you can clearly see the right wrist bow/the club face open/the right elbow move forward. It is the bow in the back of the right wrist that makes the elbow move forward..

 

 

I have lined those posts together because both of you, Gents, seem to touch the same thing. Bowing the back of the rear wrist, indeed, moves the rear elbow forward and, indeed, the clubface changes its position and looks more up to the sky. Moreover, indeed, it can be observed in Mr.Hogan's action.

 

Still though, I have maybe not doubts, but rather questions, what caused Mr. Hogan to do this move. Poke's attempt to explain it via trigger finger forcing the shaft to move down is very intriguing, however, bears a connotation of a deliberate move that I do not like.

Again, until last moment, I will be searching for a total automatism in sequencing. :)

 

Cheers

[LucF]

Thanks for your invitation to test your invention, i.e. PBS. Frankly, I think it is a great product that can help a lot of golfers, escpecially casters and flippers to induce a proper sensation of lag and clubface. However, I am not sure if weak RH grip players can benefit from it, moreover, can even use it physically since there is very small room between trigger finger and the shaft.

 

Funny that you say that, Dariusz. I have a weak right hand (à la Slice) and after trying the PBS on a couple of hundred balls, I never figured out what it was supposed to do. I thought maybe I was lag stupid or something.

[Dariusz J.]

I'm just saying the rolling of the face as fast and far as possible ultimately brings the left hand, wrist, and entire arm into the picture. That, in return, will heavily influence the right hand, wrist, and entire arm as it folds. In order to max it all out, you have to MAX IT OUT. I keep on TRYING to max it out through transition. Actually, I am TRYING to max it out as long as I can, until the PIVOT catches the darned thing and I'm on plane (on your elbow plane and on or near my OSP) and ready to just rip through the darned ball. Maxing it out causes my entire right arm to try and twist all the way to my rotator cuff. Now, we know you can't twist the darned elbow, but feel is there in the rotator cuff. And the elbow moves a shade forward through transition. Like the elbow is trying to help it twist by moving forward. Just that rolling of the face as far and as fast as I can gives me that low swing, short arm, full wrist set, on plane and not very far off the OSP, close looking tucked elbow, slightly tucked in looking right side, ability to house future lag. All that, one thought.

 

Now, I should know what is coming next. How do you not lay the club off doing this extraordinary bizarre move? To me, that is where the cup kind of saves it. THE CUPPED WRIST SET sets the club early enough to limit the amount of time the club has to get TOO LAYED OFF. And it's coupled with a low swing. Even better.

 

As far as the grip pressure and the reactions to the face. I wish I wouldn't have mentioned it. I don't feel too comfortable declaring it because how on earth can I be for sure except what I see in my ball flight. And now that the pressure is on me........

 

If I focus on firming up the last three fingers on the left hand grip and and hardly using the right hand forefinger and thumb................the cup stays quite a bit longer. If I focus on more pressure with the forefinger and thumb of the right hand, the cup disappears through transition. Why? I couldn't tell you unfortunately. Maybe some other muscles are activated.........who the heck knows? But what is further interesting is the fact that one makes my ball curve RIGHT and the other LEFT. Without me manipulating the club with my hands anymore.

 

Magnum, thank you very much for sharing your thoughts with us, my friend. A lot of thoughts to reprocess.

 

Just to get this straight: when talking about a counter-clockwise rotation of the forearm - do you mean the right forearm at the top ? if yes, sorry for misinterpretting your words before - I thought about maximizing the lead forearm rotation clockwise.

And another thing - while maximizing your rear forearm anti-clockwise rotation - do you feel the RH wrist automatically cups down (as per Texan's theory) ?

 

Cheers