Hogan's Disorder

[psd]

I cannot fathom how you can hit a ball from that elbow position, the club gets so flat, it looks like you are taking a baseball swing. I was trying this at the dome, and i could hit a driver like this, but I shanked a hundred wedges. I tried to get the feeling of the "pump it drill" going in the downswing and no matter how far I moved the ball out, I could not hit anything but the lovely shank... What am I missing here?

 

 

 

 

 

Sounds to me you were doing it wrong...I would guess you are way underneth and swinging out to shank it, now if it was a fan shot thats a different story.

 

Magnum - So it sounds as if you are doing what I habitually did, but my instructor is trying to break me of. :fool:

 

At the top of your backswing, is your club face wide open, i.e. top line and toe of the club pointing down?

 

 

Now, wait a second............ I am not recommending you go against your instructor. Please don't think that!!! And it's probably better that you don't. You might have had a few other things going on with it earlier. Maybe.

 

For the record, no the toe is not pointing straight down. If anything, it's only shade open.

 

I'm just rotating the left arm and gradually opening the face. It's not a blatant fanning the heck out of it.

 

I might have opened a can of worms here. Just experiment with it, is all I can say. The whole deal of it is to find a way to keep the club in a position (talking plane) that doesn't need a whole lot of re-routing or timing.

 

Check it out in a mirror. That's the best thing I can think of.

 

No worries on me fighting/contradicting my instructor. I'm just trying to understand what you are doing. I realize we may not all benefit from similar actions. I've viewed sevam1's video where he rolls the arm. I can perform that move where the arm rolls but the back of the left hand and the club face remain in place, i.e. do not roll.

 

As noted, I fight to keep the club face square in my back swing and also find the club gets laid off early. Then I subconsciously reroute in transition and end up coming over the top.

 

When you say you roll the snot out of your left arm, I'm trying to understand its relationship to the club face. I appreciate you taking the time to clarify. :drinks:

[randy6675]

I cannot fathom how you can hit a ball from that elbow position, the club gets so flat, it looks like you are taking a baseball swing. I was trying this at the dome, and i could hit a driver like this, but I shanked a hundred wedges. I tried to get the feeling of the "pump it drill" going in the downswing and no matter how far I moved the ball out, I could not hit anything but the lovely shank... What am I missing here?

 

I am probably the last one that should be giving advice here, since I have only been playing 16 months. But, the rolling of the arms on the way back has really helped my swing, especially getting rid of an over the top move. Whenever I start shanking shots, it is because I am sliding my hips forward in the downswing, rather that rotating the navel (per Sevam1). Not sure if that is the cause for you or not, but it is for me every time.

 

I will also note that Slicefixer recommends this move in the "Encyclopedia Texarkana".

 

Randy

[ej002]

?!?!?!? Unless I am completely mistaken, Duval's face is SHUT at the top. (At least in relation to his forearms). Stop the where he is at knee high / hip high.. the face is still very very perpendicular to the line, to the point that the face is looking at the ball still. Not much roll there at all, and I do not believe this is what Magnum is talking about at all.

 

Hogan is open at the top, when the toe points to the ground.

 

In fact, Duval looks just like pre-secret Hogan, shut face top, hold off the face and rotate hard. Very different from what I THOUGHT we were talking about.

 

Two opposites IMO... at least that I how I understand the terminology.

[theshield]

Hey guys....new here but wanted to chime in......

 

Duval does open face a little, but due to his strong grip it is still considered in a shut position at the top - face pointing up means it is shut or closed. Texan - you are correct, hogan starts his downswing by adding bend to his right wrist, which shuts the clubface a bit. Without this move, since his toe points almost straight down to the ground at the top of his backswing, he would come into the ball weak and with the clubface pointing way right. IMO, very different swings. Although I will say that in his prime i think Duval's swing ranks up there with some of the best. I love the way he holds off the clubface, very little manipulation

[spider]

?!?!?!? Unless I am completely mistaken, Duval's face is SHUT at the top. (At least in relation to his forearms). Stop the where he is at knee high / hip high.. the face is still very very perpendicular to the line, to the point that the face is looking at the ball still. Not much roll there at all, and I do not believe this is what Magnum is talking about at all.

 

Hogan is open at the top, when the toe points to the ground.

 

In fact, Duval looks just like pre-secret Hogan, shut face top, hold off the face and rotate hard. Very different from what I THOUGHT we were talking about.

 

Two opposites IMO... at least that I how I understand the terminology.

 

 

In the video the slow motion part you can clearly see the face rotating open and every one knows Duval's face of the clubs pointed to the sky at the top of his swing. Hogan's club would start to point to to the sky on the down swing as he bowed his right wrist starting the down swing.

 

Ok something doesn't make sense here or I am misunderstanding what you are pointing out texan golf. Duval clubface pointing at sky is usually referred to as closed or shut. Hogan with toe pointing down at top is considered more open than a club face pointing skyward.

 

did I miss something? Just curious cuz the last post lost me. :)

[Dariusz J.]

The position of the clubface at the top in a horizontal/vertical sense has nothing to do with "openess" or "closeness" of the face. It's wrong "classic" swing theories that are mixing all things upside down.

If you revert to the thread "The secret of cupped wrist", you will see that what only matters is the relation of the clubface towards the swing arc.

If the clubface points up at the sky at the top, it does not mean that it is "closed", but "delofted"; consequently, if the clubface points to the North, it does not mean that it is "open", but "lofted".

The clubface at the top is always open in relation to the swing arc.

The more it is laid-off, the more it is open = the more the lead forearm rotates clockwise, the more it is open in relation to the swing arc, and this is only that matters in reality.

 

The forearm twist that Magnum uses so effectively in his swing is the process of opening the clubface in relation to the arc. It is so effective because of limitation that Magnum's forearm and wrist encounters and he does not need to deal with the timing issues. This is one of the best examples of real applications of the theory of limitations in the swing motion. Perfect biokinetics.

 

The shank problems are associated with too flat swings (that is an error needing compensation) but not with on-plane low swings. Again, what is being discussed here is not a flat swing, but a low plane swing.

 

Cheers

[finalist]

DTS the golf swing is very easy and simple- getting it right and repeatable isn't :) .

 

What do all good golf swings have in common regardless of swing type/release? The hands lead a trailing clubghead. Leading with the right elbow ensures that and leverage. I cannot go forward anymore with 80# of gut in front of my spine. But 20+ years ago I felt lag in my RT elbow, not my hands. As long as you lead with the elbow where it is located is irrelevent.

 

The Magnum twist is a phenomenal tip, an absolute gem. Why? It puts the arms in sync with the core.

 

If you set up with correct angles, all you do is stretch and release. Proper address angles, Magnum twist at transition, lead with the RT elbow and "giver 'er hell at the bottom."

 

It is simple, don't make it complicated.

 

Holy cow!!!

 

Frank, I NEVER.........EVER could have explained it like that. That was brilliant, bud. That sums up everything that is needed to be said and NOTHING more!!!!

 

But,......................"giv'er hell at the bottom"..........................that was the best part, because that is EXACTLY, and I mean EXACTLY, what I feel. You're already there, amigo!!! Now, giv'er hell with everything you got !!! C-R-A-C-K !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is such a pleasure to feel a well struck golf ball. And being able to just rip through it without fear is an even more enjoyable pleasure.

 

Went to the range today (cold!) with the thought that my right elbow should lead and that my right elbow hits the ball rather than my hands. I like the results a lot. It felt more attached to my core and there by easier to repeat. It also felt like bigger muscles are activated. It helps set up the correct order of the downswing nicely.

 

It's good to know what parts of the body to focus on rather than shifting attention around constantly never knowing what's a band-aid or a real solution. I couldn't never figure this stuff out on my own because I don't trust my self.

[KevCarter]

Went to the range today (cold!) with the thought that my right elbow should lead and that my right elbow hits the ball rather than my hands. I like the results a lot. It felt more attached to my core and there by easier to repeat. It also felt like bigger muscles are activated. It helps set up the correct order of the downswing nicely.

 

It's good to know what parts of the body to focus on rather than shifting attention around constantly never knowing what's a band-aid or a real solution. I couldn't never figure this stuff out on my own because I don't trust my self.

 

Keep at it Finalist!

 

I found the same feeling when doing Slice's 9 to 3 drill. If I lead with my right elbow, or "pitch elbow", I have a MUCH easier time holding my angles and feeling lag through the line of compression. It seems when I start the downstroke with pitch elbow, my right wrist actually bends to a little deeper angle, and I am able to freeze it there for the rest of the downstroke. That seems to give me a little extra insurance against club head throw away.

 

Kevin

[Poke]

Maybe this and Texan's Hogan's Angle thread should be merged...I have trouble remembering which one I'm in???

 

If I'm understanding this right, Hogan's move that deepens his right wrist angle while moving his right elbow forward is simultaneously delofting, starting his bowing of the left wrist, getting his hands ahead of the club head (what some of us have been taught to call shut above the shoulders) WHILE shallowing, laying off, shifting his plane to the right and opening the face to the arc, taking the left side out of play.

 

Is this lag creation, the sweet spot is the last in the whole chain of events to start is delibirate track back to the ball? As Magnum says, "The Pivot Catches It!". And when it does the entire club, hands arm triangle is in a powerfull position already setting up to strike?

[slicefixer]

Maybe this and Texan's Hogan's Angle thread should be merged...I have trouble remembering which one I'm in???

 

If I'm understanding this right, Hogan's move that deepens his right wrist angle while moving his right elbow forward is simultaneously delofting, starting his bowing of the left wrist, getting his hands ahead of the club head (what some of us have been taught to call shut above the shoulders) WHILE shallowing, laying off, shifting his plane to the right and opening the face to the arc, taking the left side out of play.

 

Is this lag creation, the sweet spot is the last in the whole chain of events to start is delibirate track back to the ball? As Magnum says, "The Pivot Catches It!". And when it does the entire club, hands arm triangle is in a powerfull position already setting up to strike?

 

 

This is nothing more than WHAT the MASS of the CLUBHEAD does in RESPONSE to the actions of the PIVOT based on WHERE the MASS is located relative to the body/arms at the completion of the backswing.......Spider does it........I use to do it.......and it's NOT something that is CONSCIOUSLY done........it's a REACTION to the positioning of the club vs. the style of pivot/"type" of pivot....... we've talked about this at LENGTH many times before........ ;)

 

In other words, STUDY the PIVOT........then note WHERE the clubhead/mass is in relation to the body........the MASS WILL REACT to what's going on within' the PIVOT (which is the actions/motions of the body/core)........as will the ARMS/SHAFT when they react to the MASS reacting/moving in a particular manner due to the actions of the PIVOT........to me it's simple and not some mystery or "magic move"........his entire DOWNswing was nothing more than a REACTION to his BACKswing (his "style" of pivot and positioning of the arms/club at the top).......EXACTLY as he stated it was......... ;)

 

BTW, ALL golf swings have some degree of lead "forearm twist"......otherwise the right arm couldn't fold and the club couldn't "set"........

[slicefixer]

The position of the clubface at the top in a horizontal/vertical sense has nothing to do with "openess" or "closeness" of the face. It's wrong "classic" swing theories that are mixing all things upside down.

If you revert to the thread "The secret of cupped wrist", you will see that what only matters is the relation of the clubface towards the swing arc.

If the clubface points up at the sky at the top, it does not mean that it is "closed", but "delofted"; consequently, if the clubface points to the North, it does not mean that it is "open", but "lofted".

The clubface at the top is always open in relation to the swing arc.

The more it is laid-off, the more it is open = the more the lead forearm rotates clockwise, the more it is open in relation to the swing arc, and this is only that matters in reality.

 

The forearm twist that Magnum uses so effectively in his swing is the process of opening the clubface in relation to the arc. It is so effective because of limitation that Magnum's forearm and wrist encounters and he does not need to deal with the timing issues. This is one of the best examples of real applications of the theory of limitations in the swing motion. Perfect biokinetics.

 

The shank problems are associated with too flat swings (that is an error needing compensation) but not with on-plane low swings. Again, what is being discussed here is not a flat swing, but a low plane swing.

 

Cheers

 

Well said my friend..........;)

[Poke]

Maybe this and Texan's Hogan's Angle thread should be merged...I have trouble remembering which one I'm in???

 

If I'm understanding this right, Hogan's move that deepens his right wrist angle while moving his right elbow forward is simultaneously delofting, starting his bowing of the left wrist, getting his hands ahead of the club head (what some of us have been taught to call shut above the shoulders) WHILE shallowing, laying off, shifting his plane to the right and opening the face to the arc, taking the left side out of play.

 

Is this lag creation, the sweet spot is the last in the whole chain of events to start is delibirate track back to the ball? As Magnum says, "The Pivot Catches It!". And when it does the entire club, hands arm triangle is in a powerfull position already setting up to strike?

 

 

This is nothing more than WHAT the MASS of the CLUBHEAD does in RESPONSE to the actions of the PIVOT based on WHERE the MASS is located relative to the body/arms at the completion of the backswing.......Spider does it........I use to do it.......and it's NOT something that is CONSCIOUSLY done........it's a REACTION to the positioning of the club vs. the style of pivot/"type" of pivot....... we've talked about this at LENGTH many times before........ ;)

 

Yes Slice, I realize that...but it is the first time I really got it. And even though it is a dynamic reaction to the pivot (into the right side with correct angles maintained from set-up through impact), it helps (at least me) to understand what the reaction should be...a goal if you will.

 

And if I haven't said it before: thank you for sharing your expertise so freely, it has had profound effect on both my swing and enjoyment of the game.

[slicefixer]

Maybe this and Texan's Hogan's Angle thread should be merged...I have trouble remembering which one I'm in???

 

If I'm understanding this right, Hogan's move that deepens his right wrist angle while moving his right elbow forward is simultaneously delofting, starting his bowing of the left wrist, getting his hands ahead of the club head (what some of us have been taught to call shut above the shoulders) WHILE shallowing, laying off, shifting his plane to the right and opening the face to the arc, taking the left side out of play.

 

Is this lag creation, the sweet spot is the last in the whole chain of events to start is delibirate track back to the ball? As Magnum says, "The Pivot Catches It!". And when it does the entire club, hands arm triangle is in a powerfull position already setting up to strike?

 

 

This is nothing more than WHAT the MASS of the CLUBHEAD does in RESPONSE to the actions of the PIVOT based on WHERE the MASS is located relative to the body/arms at the completion of the backswing.......Spider does it........I use to do it.......and it's NOT something that is CONSCIOUSLY done........it's a REACTION to the positioning of the club vs. the style of pivot/"type" of pivot....... we've talked about this at LENGTH many times before........ ;)

 

Yes Slice, I realize that...but it is the first time I really got it. And even though it is a dynamic reaction to the pivot (into the right side with correct angles maintained from set-up through impact), it helps (at least me) to understand what the reaction should be...a goal if you will.

 

And if I haven't said it before: thank you for sharing your expertise so freely, it has had profound effect on both my swing and enjoyment of the game.

 

Your most welcome my friend......I'm just happy to have had some small part in helping you........ ;)

 

BTW, all I'm trying to point out is that the arms/club are REACTING (in most great ballstrikers golf swings, especially Mr. Hogan's) and aren't performing some fantastic "slight of hand" magical act.......it's AMAZING to me what some speculate as to what he did CONSCIOUSLY in, literally, the blink of an eye........Mr. Hogan was a very special person and player, but, he was still a human being with human capabilities and shortcomings........to think he could CONSCIOUSLY perform some of the "moves" speculated as his "secret" are UNrealistic at best, and downright "hogwash" at worst......striking a golf ball consistently at the highest levels requires an ability to perform under HIGH levels of stress........the fewer the thoughts involved the better.......the more the player can simply react to the target/shot desired using imagery and feel the better.......the more the player is out there "playing golf swing" by consciously trying to "direct" things within the swing (ESPECIALLY the DOWNswing) the worse off they will almost always strike the golf ball........

 

I'm not saying a player can't ingrain particular movements within their swings.......they can certainly do this and do so on practice tees all over this world EVERY single day........but, sooner or later these conscious movements MUST become "natural"/a "habit or they are will rarely strike the golf ball with ANY great degree of CONSISTENCY........and these movements MUST be ingrained over many months/years to become "natural".......it takes TIME and PATIENCE......

 

However, I'm in the Jackie Burke club (at least what's been repeated to me) in that the player can consciously have a ONE thought/swing key and perform well under high stress, but, they'd better involve the BACKswing or, if involving the DOWNswing you'd better be thinking it BEFORE the club goes back in the moveaway/takeaway.....the DOWNswing (in world class golf swings) is literally over in a flash and the brain has NO chance of staying ahead of the body.........and I've rarely seen a player CONSCIOUSLY "manipulate" the face of the club during the transition that could strike the ball with any degree of consistency.........the only one I can think of off-hand is David Toms who REPORTEDLY try's to "bow" his left wrist in transtion to close the face relative to the arc/path sooner and then "hang on". (btw, Toms had to have wrist surgery)......NOT saying that some don't do something to manipulate the face in transition, just that in my experience when you see a change in the transition that's it's almost always a REACTION and not CONSCIOUS.........JMOP..........;)

[martinez]

I agree and I said it earlier, under the dynamic conditions of the transition moving your wrist will have not have the influence on your elbow. Your elbow will go where your body goes less the resistance of the mass. Your wrist will go where your elbow goes less the resistance of the mass.

[Poke]

Just to clarify...the biggest revalation to me is that what I thought of...and been trying to get rid of like the plauge to keep the hook away...as closed/shut above my shoulders (or is it above the waist?) is really delofted.

 

This allows me up to accept the feel of some nice shots I've hit...piercing mid to low flight...as comming from a sound connected swing, a good reaction to the shot I've imagined, not disregarded as the lucky timing of holding off a closed face.

[scores]

yes Slice Fixer thats what I wanted too say!!hehe but I just came home from a party down the street!!! No Heat party.. bad weather!!! Ice storm.

 

Along for the Ride... I am back and have had too much time away!!

[Dariusz J.]

Many thanks, Geoff, for chiming in and sharing with your knowledge in this thread. I agree 100% to what you said about lack of conscious actions in such a fast and dynamic motion as a human golf swing is.

So, do you generally agree to the theory, that Hogan's specific rear elbow motion forward is related to his pre-secret habits (say, "residues of muscle memory" or "elbow joint trained overhuman flexibility due to pre-secret habits") ? I'd appreciate if you express your specific opinion on this subject.

 

Cheers

[slicefixer]

Many thanks, Geoff, for chiming in and sharing with your knowledge in this thread. I agree 100% to what you said about lack of conscious actions in such a fast and dynamic motion as a human golf swing is.

So, do you generally agree to the theory, that Hogan's specific rear elbow motion forward is related to his pre-secret habits (say, "residues of muscle memory" or "elbow joint trained overhuman flexibility due to pre-secret habits") ? I'd appreciate if you express your specific opinion on this subject.

 

Cheers

 

Yessir I do .........IMOP it's nothing more than a REACTION to what he did within the totality of his golf swing.......both pivot and armswing.......and as to what occurred with the wrists/clubhead/shaft/arms in the transition/downswing these were all reactions to his pivot and the positioning of his arms/club/clubhead, etc. at the conclusion of his backswing and how he transitioned from backswing to downswing........

 

BTW, I'm VERY, VERY impressed with all the hard work/research your doing Dariuz.......you and I are a lot alike (although I'm sure your smarter ;)) in that we want to know/understand and are willing to do the homework in an ATTEMPT to "figure it out"........doesn't mean we will figure it out, but, we're trying our best to do so... ;) Happy Holidays to you and yours! ;)

[slicefixer]

yes Slice Fixer thats what I wanted too say!!hehe but I just came home from a party down the street!!! No Heat party.. bad weather!!! Ice storm.

 

Along for the Ride... I am back and have had too much time away!!

 

LOL........based on what I've experienced at most Christmas parties I've attended, it's a good idea that it was down the street...... ;)

 

Merry Christmas to you and yours Spider!

[Dariusz J.]

Yessir I do .........IMOP it's nothing more than a REACTION to what he did within the totality of his golf swing.......both pivot and armswing.......and as to what occurred with the wrists/clubhead/shaft/arms in the transition/downswing these were all reactions to his pivot and the positioning of his arms/club/clubhead, etc. at the conclusion of his backswing and how he transitioned from backswing to downswing........

 

BTW, I'm VERY, VERY impressed with all the hard work/research your doing Dariuz.......you and I are a lot alike (although I'm sure your smarter ;)) in that we want to know/understand and are willing to do the homework in an ATTEMPT to "figure it out"........doesn't mean we will figure it out, but, we're trying our best to do so... ;) Happy Holidays to you and yours! ;)

 

 

Many best Holiday wishes for you and yours as well, Sir.

Well, I am hardy brilliant, but stubborn :D What helped me a lot to start to understand what is going on in the swing motion subject (apart from biokinetics studies, listening to experts like you, and studying Mr.Hogan's swing) is that I decided not to take the "classic" golf theories as imperatives. There are a lot of false (or, at least, controversial) concepts and notions in them that require thinking and discussing them again.

 

Geoff, one more thing, if I may ask - if we accept the above discussed theory of Hogan's rear elbow excessive move, there is one serious implication of it. Namely, if he was unintentionally able to move it much more forward than others, the plane shift between his backswing and his downswing have to be per se bigger and more visible. Do you agree ?

 

OTOH, as I said earlier, Mr.Hogan was so sure about his plane shift after transition that he described it in details in '5 Lessons'. Therefore, I guess that he had a very clear mental awareness of this phenomenon, moreover, he claimed that it is NECESSARY to have such a shift - which is very much linked to the rear elbow forward move.

Now I am wondering why he regarded the plane shift at transition as SO NECESSARY. I wonder if it has something to do with his willingness to change the most natural scenario that happens when the clubface is moving ideally on plane square to the swing arc with an in-to-in motion. Physics tells us that such an ideal scenario will result with a slight draw. I wonder then, if physically, changing the plane for a higher and shallower one in the downswing changes this ideal scenario and enables to convert this slight draw into a slight fade (powerfade, knucklefade, etc.). If it is true, we would have the right to guess why Mr.Hogan was so stubborn about the necessity of the plane shift.

 

I am anxious to hear your opinions on the whole subject of my post. Thanks in advance, my friend :)

 

Cheers

[Noallegiance]

Hi Dariusz,

 

I was at the range last night (and pounding it, I might add!) and stumbled upon something else that you may, or may not, want to slot into your considerations.

 

The right elbow moving forward from the top of the backswing can also be triggered by the simple desire to keep the right hand firmly planted on the grip.

 

It's easy in the backswing to loosen the right hand grip even slightly, and so to replant the big pad at the base of the thumb back onto the top of the left thumb (as firmly as it was there at address) the natural move is to squeeze the grip slightly with the base of the right hand (the alternative is to begin a casting move) and hence the right elbow has to move forward slightly to accomodate it.

 

So it's kinda like the additional cupping of the right wrist mentioned earlier in the thread, but for a different reason.

 

Try it! What do you think?

[Dariusz J.]

Hi Dariusz,

 

I was at the range last night (and pounding it, I might add!) and stumbled upon something else that you may, or may not, want to slot into your considerations.

 

The right elbow moving forward from the top of the backswing can also be triggered by the simple desire to keep the right hand firmly planted on the grip.

 

It's easy in the backswing to loosen the right hand grip even slightly, and so to replant the big pad at the base of the thumb back onto the top of the left thumb (as firmly as it was there at address) the natural move is to squeeze the grip slightly with the base of the right hand (the alternative is to begin a casting move) and hence the right elbow has to move forward slightly to accomodate it.

 

So it's kinda like the additional cupping of the right wrist mentioned earlier in the thread, but for a different reason.

 

Try it! What do you think?

 

 

Hello, Noallegiance. Another great remark, mate. TGMers would call it #1 pressure point. Old Hogan talked about this pressure point in the famous Coleman clip as well.

Indeed, monitoring this pressure point in the sense that you tighten the grip at transition making the rear palm press onto the shaft causes the rear wrist to hinge even more and, consequently, the rear elbow moves forward a bit. You are right as well saying that the grip loosens a bit at the top because of serious torque forces involved.

Now the question is how to monitor this pressure point without any single thought. :) The first thing it comes to my mind is that one's subconscious mind forces to tighten the whole grip at transition because of a fear that one can lose the club at such rapid change of movement orientation as transition is. It would kinda explain why the grip pressure at address/takeaway/backswing cannot be too tight (another reason to avoid too tight a grip is, of course, stiffening the wrists that result in problems with creating lag).

 

Feed us more with your concepts, mate. It is you, mainly to whom we are able now to sort out the Hogan's disorder dilemma now. "Muscle memory" idea is a very convincing one, the more such authorities as Geoff agree to it.

 

Cheers

[Noallegiance]

Thanks for the comments Dariusz

 

The other thing I noticed while playing with the pressure of the base of the right hand at the top of the swing relates to my remark about casting.

 

I noticed some time ago that, certainly with the longer clubs, Hogan's right arms seems to bend a fair amount beyond the commonly prescribed circa 90 degree angle. In fact, the angle between his right upper arm and right forearm appears to decrease further during the first part of the downswing. Like he's loading up a punch through the ball with his right arm. If I were to punch a fairground-style speedbag, I wouldn't stop bending my arm once it reached 90 degrees. I would bend it so much that it's almost as if I were fully flexing what little bicep I have.

 

The more I think about what I'm saying, the more it appears to fly in the face of guru wisdom about width in the backswing. As my coach says, your backswing need not be wider than the length of your left arm

 

This whole movement is what I was referring to re casting. To plant the base of the right hand firmly on the left hand/grip and not push the club away from the body from the top (i.e. start to cast it) the opposite reaction must happen; the right forearm must continue to move toward the right upper arm, and so continue on with the momentum of the club.

 

This could well explain his long-looking swing with the longer clubs, and also go toward explaining how Hogan was able to get to that wonderful 'halfway down' position that Sevam1 can mimic so well in his swing (and also the fact that Hogan appeared to start to unwind to the target well before his clubhead changed direction).

 

So, in an attempt to answer your musing about monitoring the pressure of the base of the right hand in the swing, the pressure can be kept there by allowing your right arm to bend considerably more than 90 degrees in the backswing and first part of the downswing. By doing that, you then have extra 'oomph' (how very scientific) in your right arm to punch through the ball, and straightening the right arm too early in the downswing can almost never happen. Fore left, again, is removed.

 

I'm eager to get to the range on friday to see how it looks on film.

[dfw1500]

You are correct that the angle in the right elbow decreases in the backswing/into the transition, the reason for this is the late setting of the club that occurs during his backswing.....this late setting means that the club is still setting as the transition begins, you will see the angle get smaller on all people who set the club late (float load).....I set the club late in the backswing and at the top and into the transition look VERY similar to Mr Hogan, this coupled with the club being laid off and the mass being behind the hands....as he makes the pivot move OVER his left side during the transition the club continues to work back and the angle in the wrist/elbow decreases further as the mass of the club works more behind and due to it not being supported by the arms lag is created, this move coupled with the unwinding from the left side creates the movement in the right elbow/arm ;)

 

Cheers Dan

[magnum184]

You are correct that the angle in the right elbow decreases in the backswing/into the transition, the reason for this is the late setting of the club that occurs during his backswing.....this late setting means that the club is still setting as the transition begins, you will see the angle get smaller on all people who set the club late (float load).....I set the club late in the backswing and at the top and into the transition look VERY similar to Mr Hogan, this coupled with the club being laid off and the mass being behind the hands....as he makes the pivot move OVER his left side during the transition the club continues to work back and the angle in the wrist/elbow decreases further as the mass of the club works more behind and due to it not being supported by the arms lag is created, this move coupled with the unwinding from the left side creates the movement in the right elbow/arm ;)

 

Cheers Dan

 

 

I think you're right. VERY RIGHT.

 

A lot of this stuff is happening by pure reaction. However, there must be an action or stimulus FIRST, right? For me, when I try to roll the face open as far and fast as I can, it get the club to start..........................rounding off as well.........................heading towards that "layed off look" (can I call it that). That's the only thought. I max it out and keep the swing height low across the chest. That is my only thought and it just so happens to keep happening through transition and the pivot, in all it's dynamic fashion, simply takes care of the rest like you described.

 

Overall, the pivot is the main attraction here. Maybe, I'm just putting the club in a position to really allow the pivot to do the work. And it's all very, very dynamic. The motion I mean.

[dfw1500]

You are correct that the angle in the right elbow decreases in the backswing/into the transition, the reason for this is the late setting of the club that occurs during his backswing.....this late setting means that the club is still setting as the transition begins, you will see the angle get smaller on all people who set the club late (float load).....I set the club late in the backswing and at the top and into the transition look VERY similar to Mr Hogan, this coupled with the club being laid off and the mass being behind the hands....as he makes the pivot move OVER his left side during the transition the club continues to work back and the angle in the wrist/elbow decreases further as the mass of the club works more behind and due to it not being supported by the arms lag is created, this move coupled with the unwinding from the left side creates the movement in the right elbow/arm ;)

 

Cheers Dan

 

 

I think you're right. VERY RIGHT.

 

A lot of this stuff is happening by pure reaction. However, there must be an action or stimulus FIRST, right? For me, when I try to roll the face open as far and fast as I can, it get the club to start..........................rounding off as well.........................heading towards that "layed off look" (can I call it that). That's the only thought. I max it out and keep the swing height low across the chest. That is my only thought and it just so happens to keep happening through transition and the pivot, in all it's dynamic fashion, simply takes care of the rest like you described.

 

Overall, the pivot is the main attraction here. Maybe, I'm just putting the club in a position to really allow the pivot to do the work. And it's all very, very dynamic. The motion I mean.

 

 

The feeling of opening the face as fast as you can will be when you rotate the left arm across your body as much as you can, this sets the club to the plane and allows you to open the club to its max, whilst also creating the depth and getting the club "laid off".......it is this move that shallows the backswing plane and keeps the swing height across the chest......the rotation of the left arm can be as aggressive as you want it to be, this coupled with the pivot makes the transition/downswing move automatic and be VERY dynamic (like that word). ;)

 

The downswing is then reacting to what occured during the backswing and the arms are pulled down, around and through via the pivot action/unwinding of the body ;)

 

Cheers Dan

[magnum184]

The feeling of opening the face as fast as you can will be when you rotate the left arm across your body as much as you can, this sets the club to the plane and allows you to open the club to its max, whilst also creating the depth and getting the club "laid off".......it is this move that shallows the backswing plane and keeps the swing height across the chest......the rotation of the left arm can be as aggressive as you want it to be, this coupled with the pivot makes the transition/downswing move automatic and be VERY dynamic (like that word). ;)

 

The downswing is then reacting to what occured during the backswing and the arms are pulled down, around and through via the pivot action/unwinding of the body ;)

 

Cheers Dan

 

I LIKE IT !!! :clapping:

[StewartBannatyne]

Dariuz,

 

I've read through most of this thread, so forgive me if I've missed this question being asked already.

 

Do you think that the right elbow actually changes position? Or could it be that the right elbow and power package (arms, hands and club) DONT change position, but ride the upper body for the first few milliseconds of the downswing? When I look at the picture above, I don't see a heck of a lot of change in the position of the arms, but I do see a little change in the position of the body.

 

When I was fortunate enough to spend some time working one on one with Geoff, he used to have me wrap my arms up in athletic wrap to keep me from letting my arms drop behind me in transition, and shallow out too much. I always felt like I could "carry" the club a little bit more with the body, and keep my arms and hands in a much better relation to the body when I did this. It kept the right elbow much closer to my right side, as well.

 

Brian Manzella in his "Never Hook Again 2.0" video also mentions something like this, and calls it the "Carry and Drop". From the top of the backswing, in this pattern, he tries to keep the power package connected to the body for just a little bit longer, which causes the slight work over onto a new plane.

 

This (IMOP) would allow the R elbow to remain a lot closer to the R side, and because of how in front of you the club would be. Because of how in front of him he kept the club (especially with a short iron), and the shortness of his backswing with a short iron, by doing this you could really get that deep right elbow on the downswing that Mr. Hogan shows in his swing.

 

Just a thought.

 

Stew

[StewartBannatyne]

The Right Wrist...

 

Without a lot of hand manipulation, would that increase in the bend of the right wrist not be a result of the weight of the club head? If the hands and arms are along for the ride, wouldn't the club increase in lag pressure because it is being pulled instead of guided?

 

Stew

[tm22721]

wouldnt simply pulling the shaft down with the right hand cause this? its a pretty simple thought thats easy to perform.. so its basically automated.

 

 

Yes that is 100% corret and why I prefer Schlee's way of thinking rather than Bertram's. As I have posted previously, the right elbow dives in front of the right hip, which pulls down the club onto a lower plane, the right wrist is loaded and maintained til after impact.

 

Magnum's twist is the perfect way to set this all up. You give 'er a final twist, which 1. maximizes left wrist **** (with a cup) 2. pushes/coaxes RT elbow inward 3. torques the arms

 

Twist -> drop -> release...............easy peasy

How do you make this work with vertical hinging and a DTL slinger release ?

 

This appears to be more compatible with a body release and horizontal hinging.