Hogan's Disorder

[magnum184]

I'm just saying the rolling of the face as fast and far as possible ultimately brings the left hand, wrist, and entire arm into the picture. That, in return, will heavily influence the right hand, wrist, and entire arm as it folds. In order to max it all out, you have to MAX IT OUT. I keep on TRYING to max it out through transition. Actually, I am TRYING to max it out as long as I can, until the PIVOT catches the darned thing and I'm on plane (on your elbow plane and on or near my OSP) and ready to just rip through the darned ball. Maxing it out causes my entire right arm to try and twist all the way to my rotator cuff. Now, we know you can't twist the darned elbow, but feel is there in the rotator cuff. And the elbow moves a shade forward through transition. Like the elbow is trying to help it twist by moving forward. Just that rolling of the face as far and as fast as I can gives me that low swing, short arm, full wrist set, on plane and not very far off the OSP, close looking tucked elbow, slightly tucked in looking right side, ability to house future lag. All that, one thought.

 

Now, I should know what is coming next. How do you not lay the club off doing this extraordinary bizarre move? To me, that is where the cup kind of saves it. THE CUPPED WRIST SET sets the club early enough to limit the amount of time the club has to get TOO LAYED OFF. And it's coupled with a low swing. Even better.

 

As far as the grip pressure and the reactions to the face. I wish I wouldn't have mentioned it. I don't feel too comfortable declaring it because how on earth can I be for sure except what I see in my ball flight. And now that the pressure is on me........

 

If I focus on firming up the last three fingers on the left hand grip and and hardly using the right hand forefinger and thumb................the cup stays quite a bit longer. If I focus on more pressure with the forefinger and thumb of the right hand, the cup disappears through transition. Why? I couldn't tell you unfortunately. Maybe some other muscles are activated.........who the heck knows? But what is further interesting is the fact that one makes my ball curve RIGHT and the other LEFT. Without me manipulating the club with my hands anymore.

 

Magnum, thank you very much for sharing your thoughts with us, my friend. A lot of thoughts to reprocess.

 

Just to get this straight: when talking about a counter-clockwise rotation of the forearm - do you mean the right forearm at the top ? if yes, sorry for misinterpretting your words before - I thought about maximizing the lead forearm rotation clockwise.

And another thing - while maximizing your rear forearm anti-clockwise rotation - do you feel the RH wrist automatically cups down (as per Texan's theory) ?

 

Cheers

 

Maybe you need to get me straight, old friend. I roll the snot out of my left forearm.......CLOCKWISE. So, what is the reaction to the right forearm? CLOCKWISE or COUNTER-CLOCKWISE? Hope you can clean my mess up. :lol:

 

UUUUHHHHHHHHHHHHHH............................I think I might feel that. I know I feel a TON of weight. You can REALLY feel the weight of the club and it ever increases through transition and on the way down. It will feel rediculusly heavy. Like it's loading up or something to that nature. But, I will say it happens a little later than I think he is saying it. Maybe before you reach delivery. Clear me up, ole man. And tell me your thoughts on why the cup lasts a little longer with those two "swing wreckers" as Hogan called them.

[Poke]

Still though, I have maybe not doubts, but rather questions, what caused Mr. Hogan to do this move. Poke's attempt to explain it via trigger finger forcing the shaft to move down is very intriguing, however, bears a connotation of a deliberate move that I do not like.

Again, until last moment, I will be searching for a total automatism in sequencing. :)

 

Cheers

 

I here you D,

 

I'm trying to automate it for you without any luck...the best I can say is you have to make it an intentional feel: tug the whole arm, hands club triangle as one solid increasingly compact assembly down the plane, which I'm sure brings in timing issues. I can't quite get Magnum's explanation to work automatically either--visuals would help.

[eightiron]

makes an in to over move with his right shoulder not with his arms or hands..while the hips and butt stay up and back moving to right field the right shoulder accelerates actively then left elbow takes over

hogan said he painted dots with his elbows..got to figure out how and when

imop hogan moved his arms more vertically than people think

[Dariusz J.]

Maybe you need to get me straight, old friend. I roll the snot out of my left forearm.......CLOCKWISE. So, what is the reaction to the right forearm? CLOCKWISE or COUNTER-CLOCKWISE? Hope you can clean my mess up. :lol:

 

UUUUHHHHHHHHHHHHHH............................I think I might feel that. I know I feel a TON of weight. You can REALLY feel the weight of the club and it ever increases through transition and on the way down. It will feel rediculusly heavy. Like it's loading up or something to that nature. But, I will say it happens a little later than I think he is saying it. Maybe before you reach delivery. Clear me up, ole man. And tell me your thoughts on why the cup lasts a little longer with those two "swing wreckers" as Hogan called them.

 

 

:) No worries, mate.

 

Concepts of turning clockwise/anti-clockwise is difficult to present and often can be mistaken. Enough said, if we e.g. use this example: when the rear arm is hanging freely down, the turning right is the clockwise turn. However, if the right forearm is up (as on top of the swing) THE SAME TURN BECOMES ANTI-CLOCKWISE.

Now, with referense to the elbow move, it must be anti-clockwise rotation at the top and it really brings the elbow forward; add the Texan's bow down and you have the elbow even more forward.

What's interesting - if you max the lead arm CLOCWISE rotation, the rear forearm turns ANTI-CLOCKWISE per se. However, it does not, IMHO, lead the right wrist in the Texan's cup down position automatically. On the other hand, I find your remark on feeling heavy as very interesting - if someone feels that something is heavy in such a position as on the top - the wrist should respond to this feeling and unintentionally cup down.

 

Cheers

[Dariusz J.]

makes an in to over move with his right shoulder not with his arms or hands..while the hips and butt stay up and back moving to right field the right shoulder accelerates actively then left elbow takes over

hogan said he painted dots with his elbows..got to figure out how and when

imop hogan moved his arms more vertically than people think

 

Hi Eightiron, long time and I am glad we have you in this thread, too.

 

Care to elaborate WHERE exactly these dots should be painted in your opinion ? And when talking about Hogan's right shoulder in-to-out move do you imply that his arms (especially elbow) went out-to-in and that's why his elbow moved forward ? A true disorder then...but makes some sense :)

 

Cheers

[martinez]

I don't see how you can move your elbow with your wrist? Surely it comes from the ball joint of the shoulder. If you are still pulling off the ball with the left arm and you're adding loft with the right side, and you do this in an extreme fashion you will be in Hogans' position there. You have to use your entire body to do this, it isn't a static position, so under load most players cannot resist and cannot keep the loft in the right side (myself included) that Hogan could.

 

Also most people don't take the club back near as dynamically as he did, and therefore this position would be counter productive. It was productive for him because he pulled the club so strongly from the ball with that negative load.

[magnum184]

I don't see how you can move your elbow with your wrist? Surely it comes from the ball joint of the shoulder. If you are still pulling off the ball with the left arm and you're adding loft with the right side, and you do this in an extreme fashion you will be in Hogans' position there. You have to use your entire body to do this, it isn't a static position, so under load most players cannot resist and cannot keep the loft in the right side (myself included) that Hogan could.

 

Also most people don't take the club back near as dynamically as he did, and therefore this position would be counter productive. It was productive for him because he pulled the club so strongly from the ball with that negative load.

 

 

Lot of truth there.

 

I sometimes forget to mention that all of this must be dynamic. The first time I mentioned this I did in fact imply that it was occurring under dynamic conditions. It wasn't until I stopped forcing these positions and started to allow them to happen dynamically by less action that it started to click. I can not explain how difficult it was for me personally to give up control in order to gain control. It was a devil of a time trusting a dynamic motion. I blame current analysis techniques, cameras, and a lack of early craft. :lol: Now, it all makes a lot of sense. Stimulus, action, and a reaction. Chain of events.

 

BTW, the thing that eased my transition into a more dynamic swing was...................THE WAGGLE. No, let me rephrase that......................A PURPOSEFUL WAGGLE.

[Dariusz J.]

I don't see how you can move your elbow with your wrist? Surely it comes from the ball joint of the shoulder. If you are still pulling off the ball with the left arm and you're adding loft with the right side, and you do this in an extreme fashion you will be in Hogans' position there. You have to use your entire body to do this, it isn't a static position, so under load most players cannot resist and cannot keep the loft in the right side (myself included) that Hogan could.

 

Also most people don't take the club back near as dynamically as he did, and therefore this position would be counter productive. It was productive for him because he pulled the club so strongly from the ball with that negative load.

 

Of course it must affect the change of a shoulder joint position.

Stand with both arms up, just like you'd surrender; palms face north, both elbow joints down, humerus and forearm perpendicular to the ground.

Now, cup the wrists back - you'll see that the elbows move forward in response to this change in the shoulder joint position; now, turn your right forearm anti-clockwise (to the right) - you'll see that the elbow also moves forward and also to the body; finally, when you combine cupping back with forearm rotation - you'll see that the elbow moves forward and to the body even more.

 

This is very clear now - rear forearm anti-clockwise rotation is automatic since it is a natural consequence of the lead forearm rotation performed to finish the backswing in a full swing. However, cupping the rear wrist back is not so easy to digest, at least for me - either it is a consequence of the image of holding and loading a heavy thing that is located back of us or it is associated with changing the orientation of the plane (vide: axe image).

 

Cheers

[magnum184]

I don't see how you can move your elbow with your wrist? Surely it comes from the ball joint of the shoulder. If you are still pulling off the ball with the left arm and you're adding loft with the right side, and you do this in an extreme fashion you will be in Hogans' position there. You have to use your entire body to do this, it isn't a static position, so under load most players cannot resist and cannot keep the loft in the right side (myself included) that Hogan could.

 

Also most people don't take the club back near as dynamically as he did, and therefore this position would be counter productive. It was productive for him because he pulled the club so strongly from the ball with that negative load.

 

Of course it must affect the change of a shoulder joint position.

Stand with both arms up, just like you'd surrender; palms face north, both elbow joints down, humerus and forearm perpendicular to the ground.

Now, cup the wrists back - you'll see that the elbows move forward in response to this change in the shoulder joint position; now, turn your right forearm anti-clockwise (to the right) - you'll see that the elbow also moves forward and also to the body; finally, when you combine cupping back with forearm rotation - you'll see that the elbow moves forward and to the body even more.

 

This is very clear now - rear forearm anti-clockwise rotation is automatic since it is a natural consequence of the lead forearm rotation performed to finish the backswing in a full swing. However, cupping the rear wrist back is not so easy to digest, at least for me - either it is a consequence of the image of holding and loading a heavy thing that is located back of us or it is associated with changing the orientation of the plane (vide: axe image).

 

Cheers

 

Okay, so it looks like we're on to the wrist. Dariusz, I know how you think. I know what type of answer you are looking for.

 

I will tell you what I feel and maybe then you can sort out some kind of explanation.

 

Like I said, it feels awfully heavy. Not a painful heavy, but a loaded heavy. Could there be some form a weight/drag/force/something that could allow that to happen on it's own? I just threw those words out there to get you thinking. Something to get you to think if it can automate itself by reaction. I just know that I sense something extraordinary through transition and to delivery. Something like I might be fighting some force that I can not describe. A resistance maybe or maybe I'm resisting it. Don't know if that will help. But, I feel it all in the hands. And it's solely a feel. And it immediately disappears after impact. It feels like I get all that into the ball when I strike it. Very leveraged. Anyway, I guess I mean some form of clubhead weight that causes a reaction.

 

Merely brainstorming. Sounds pathetic when I re-read it.

 

Sometimes, I HATE being a WHY person.

[Dariusz J.]

Okay, so it looks like we're on to the wrist. Dariusz, I know how you think. I know what type of answer you are looking for.

 

I will tell you what I feel and maybe then you can sort out some kind of explanation.

 

Like I said, it feels awfully heavy. Not a painful heavy, but a loaded heavy. Could there be some form a weight/drag/force/something that could allow that to happen on it's own? I just threw those words out there to get you thinking. Something to get you to think if it can automate itself by reaction. I just know that I sense something extraordinary through transition and to delivery. Something like I might be fighting some force that I can not describe. A resistance maybe or maybe I'm resisting it. Don't know if that will help. But, I feel it all in the hands. And it's solely a feel. And it immediately disappears after impact. It feels like I get all that into the ball when I strike it. Very leveraged. Anyway, I guess I mean some form of clubhead weight that causes a reaction.

 

Merely brainstorming. Sounds pathetic when I re-read it.

 

Sometimes, I HATE being a WHY person.

 

Magnum, it is not pathetic at all, au contre, it is very enlightening, mate. What would you say about such an image:

 

 

 

?

 

Cheers

[martinez]

Like I said, it feels awfully heavy. Not a painful heavy, but a loaded heavy. Could there be some form a weight/drag/force/something that could allow that to happen on it's own? I just threw those words out there to get you thinking. Something to get you to think if it can automate itself by reaction. I just know that I sense something extraordinary through transition and to delivery. Something like I might be fighting some force that I can not describe. A resistance maybe or maybe I'm resisting it. Don't know if that will help. But, I feel it all in the hands. And it's solely a feel. And it immediately disappears after impact. It feels like I get all that into the ball when I strike it. Very leveraged. Anyway, I guess I mean some form of clubhead weight that causes a reaction.

 

Once you set the club in motion the rest is all about resistance. You might feel it in your hands, but it is created by your whole body leveraging against the ground. Resisting the urge of the club to go flying into the ball. If the right Humerus is spiraling (helical) in opposition or resistance to the swinging mass you will feel it in your hands and your right wrist will hinge back. If you use your entire body to aid the spiraling of the Humerus you will have far greater resistance than if you merely bend your wrist.

[Jeff Evans]

Mr. Hogan was setup for the elbow plane angle and that is why at the top of his swing he was on a flatter plane angle because his stayed on this elbow plane angle. This flatter plane angle also supported his double wrist ****/cupping action of his left wrist.

 

Every player has their best possible motion and Mr. Hogan owned his. I think Mr. Hogan was not wanting every golfer to make his motion. I believe he one stated - "Keep your golf ball serviceable." He gave us his writings and we could beat them to death trying to figure what it all means or we can take what works for us and apply it and leave the rest for someone else.

[Swoosh-Thud]

John Schlee does exactly what you are curious about, Dariusz. Hogan illustrates the sidearm baseball throw in 5 Lessons, Schlee does both the throwing motion and then the swing action on the video.

 

Bertram says the uncupping/release of the cup of the left wrist then bows the right wrist at transition. Schlee says it a bit differently.

 

In the Maximum Golf video Schlee says it is the right elbow which dives in front of the right hip, which first lays off the club and then drops the shaft to the "power plane".......and then he goes ahead and does it.

 

It's a spitting image of Hogan, the vertical right arm (humerus), the low right elbow/shaft plane and his right elbow drops straight down, hell it's in front of his nuts!!!!! PURE LEVERAGE.

[Swoosh-Thud]

 

 

 

 

Talk about "layed off"...........

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

L E V E R A G E............

 

 

 

 

[fats]

Good posts there my eyetalian friend!!!

 

We were all very curious as to what Hogan told Schlee...He really setup with his hands/arms a lot lower after his lesson...we chuckled when we saw it, but when we saw the results we quickly lost the grins...LOL...Schlee suddenly became a real 'factor' out there.

 

John told nobody anything ever!! Hogan's magic created military type loyalty to zip your lip and just play!!

 

You've figured things out very nicely.

 

By the way, I have figured out a heavily modified S&T action that GITS-R-DUN when flexibility around the waist line is challenged.

 

HeHeHe...

[eightiron]

makes an in to over move with his right shoulder not with his arms or hands..while the hips and butt stay up and back moving to right field the right shoulder accelerates actively then left elbow takes over

hogan said he painted dots with his elbows..got to figure out how and when

imop hogan moved his arms more vertically than people think

 

Hi Eightiron, long time and I am glad we have you in this thread, too.

 

Care to elaborate WHERE exactly these dots should be painted in your opinion ? And when talking about Hogan's right shoulder in-to-out move do you imply that his arms (especially elbow) went out-to-in and that's why his elbow moved forward ? A true disorder then...but makes some sense :)

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

lots of stuff //weight of club ..inertia,,pulling forces...painting dots is up to player..i.e how fast it takes for the brain to send message .so a golf position on camera is happening well before the still photo...so painting dot on backswing would be later in backswing but much earlier on downswing ...just rambling but hip and shoulder slants matched up allowed more #3 and released earlier but saved some #2 uncocking of left wrist...true genius but honestly Morad is only thing close IMOP

[HoganAfficianado]

In the video, if you look at the clubface when he comes down with the "Hogan move" he gets the face severely closed and this is not what Hogan did. IMO Hogan did not consciously think about releasing the cup in his left wrist, it was what Darius calls "automatic" to something else in his swing.

[HoganAfficianado]

If you look at the 49 secod mark of this slow-mo video, you will see that the club face is so open it is facing straight up to the sky at the delivery position.

 

It is not Hogan in his prime obviously but IMO he tried to hold the cup in his left wrist at the top for as long as possible to keep it as open as possible. I think the video of him swinging at the beach is a true depiction of what he wanted to feel in his swing even though he might not have done it.

[Dariusz J.]

Well, just to add olive to the fire, Hogan did not need to release the cup in order to have his RH wrist cupped back. Look at 1:09-1:11 sec of the video.

I agree to HoganAfficianado - it is hard to believe that such a motion was a deliberate one, it must have been automatic and linked somehow to the mental necessity of reorienting the plane (axe image). It could happen earlier or later in the downswing, probably depending on what kind of trajectory Hogan needed - and, what is equally interesting, could be led via grip pressure changes - what Magnum said before. Appears to me as a very possible and probable scenario.

 

Cheers

[martinez]

IMO this is over analysis and over complication of what he did. If your arms lead the hands your left wrist will cup a little going back and bow a little going through. The best way to watch Mr. Hogan IMO is in normal speed. Where is it his intention to move, what is his intention with the club. The force with which he threw/dragged the club behind him going back is going to have consequences. What are those consequences if he does nothing? What were the actual consequences given what we can clearly see after the millionth viewing of his actual swing? What movements are necessary to make to bridge that gap, how can they be performed dynamically?

 

You need every ounce of your core strength to get yourself into the positions he is in, when the dynamic forces that are at work are there. Only once you understand the relationship between core/spine/ extremities in his action can you begin to unravel what he is doing. Anyone that thinks the secret is based around one particular body part clearly do not understand the forces at work in the shaft as 'he' swung it. Any manipulation of the wrists is a major power leak, IMO it kills the natural energy transfer to the clubhead. If you maintain a good sideways pressure on the shaft your hands can just react to the mass.

 

How old is Mr. Hogan in the Coleman video? That is as pure a swing as I have ever seen, it is the ultimate in simplicity and I for one believe his swing got better with age.

 

Sorry / rant.

[eightiron]

JD

all the answers are in Morad..you know i tell you the thruth..take the blue pill...or maybe the othert one..not sure matrix is old movie...find the guy who uses a name associated with water..has the answers truly ..ran them up and down the flagpole..its all what you seek

[Jeff Evans]

I am not sure who this guy is but I found this on youtube scanning Hogan video's. He makes a great point, to what I have stated and Mike Wright has stated about Hogan's wrist.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSJaTyC7tcA

 

This fellow is talking about George Kelnhofer a member of the PGA and a GSED with The Golfing Machine. Mr. George showed this to me about 10 years ago and has done much studying on Mr Hogan. Mr. George has worked with many top players and I think Mr. George is a secret.

[magnum184]

IMO this is over analysis and over complication of what he did. If your arms lead the hands your left wrist will cup a little going back and bow a little going through. The best way to watch Mr. Hogan IMO is in normal speed. Where is it his intention to move, what is his intention with the club. The force with which he threw/dragged the club behind him going back is going to have consequences. What are those consequences if he does nothing? What were the actual consequences given what we can clearly see after the millionth viewing of his actual swing? What movements are necessary to make to bridge that gap, how can they be performed dynamically?

 

You need every ounce of your core strength to get yourself into the positions he is in, when the dynamic forces that are at work are there. Only once you understand the relationship between core/spine/ extremities in his action can you begin to unravel what he is doing. Anyone that thinks the secret is based around one particular body part clearly do not understand the forces at work in the shaft as 'he' swung it. Any manipulation of the wrists is a major power leak, IMO it kills the natural energy transfer to the clubhead. If you maintain a good sideways pressure on the shaft your hands can just react to the mass.

 

How old is Mr. Hogan in the Coleman video? That is as pure a swing as I have ever seen, it is the ultimate in simplicity and I for one believe his swing got better with age.

 

Sorry / rant.

 

 

Right. The pivot and the core are the primary motors and must be fully understood and performed dynamically. But here, we are talking about tweaking a few small details. And while the pivot and core will still be doing their job, these small tweaks, that will come along for the ride, could have a significant effect.

 

In the Coleman video, it is easy to get an eerie feeling when you view it. That darned swing looked as fresh as ever. It looked as dynamic as ever. Doesn't that make you wonder about something? How does someone just get up there, at that age, and perform that? When I look for an answer to that question, I can not get past believing that it was a swing that, either by purpose or luck, but nevertheless, contained less forced actions and more dynamic reactions which inevitably led to a greater success rate of consistency. That was the purpose for the dynamic action look of that swing. A lot of the details we can find might have happened on their own. Automation, that is what Dariusz is all about investigating. And it seems very easy to find a lot of them in Ben Hogan's swing. Seems he had everything in line to allow a pivot/core dominated action to be his swing. A pivot/core dominated action, one that you could just let'er rip with everything you have, should be easier to time than anything else you could do. Huh?

 

Maybe it's all OVER ANALYSIS. But, it's thorough, huh? I know that someone could set the golf club by actively hinging the wrists or let momentum do it for them. And sometimes, it can be difficult to see the difference and the varying degrees of it. Maybe there are a few hidden things like that in which a bunch of you guys already geniusly explain. Or even the transition of Hogan. Sevam explained to us all how it could have backed into the left side without forcing it. Those are the little things I would like to know. I think it warrants the effort.

[Swoosh-Thud]

I just received this email, I asked Mike about the bow in the wrist, Hogan's lie of clubs, and the right elbow moving forward. Mike is the only person I know who would Beyon a shadow of a dought, knows Hogan's swing inside and out better than anyone on the planet. So, I just emailed him and asked, his response is below..

 

 

I think you make some good points.

 

Equipment is a huge part of his success and must be considered when one

analyzes his swing.

 

I feel the lag or lay off was as very much a part of the aggressive

change of direction created by tremendous torque. His weak grip also

permitted the club to lay off and the hands to bow.

 

The snapping of the right arm was also a result of torque and change of

direction......again one must know that Mr. Hogan had incredibly

flexible wrists and thumbs. He could almost touch his thumb to his

wrist. Torque, aggressive change of direction and flexible wrists, a

unique combination. Add all those things with a very unique set of

club and you have a unique swing.

 

 

Hope this helps a little.

 

Mike Wright

Dir. of Golf ShadyOaks G.C.

 

Hogan's swing is about one thing: fulcrums and levers. The arms/hands do nothing except get in the correct position to release the stretch...torque..... great word.

 

Two torsion bars release their torque: one the core, the other the arms. The more you twist in the BS the more torque you can release in the throughswing and helps the RT elbow lead as per Magnum.

 

The cup in the left wrist was simply to get more leverage/wrist ****. Releasing it early would be in essence casting. There is no purposeful release of this wrist **** it occurs naturally. I don't think Hogan cast. (I didn't elaborate earlier why I preferred Schlee's explanation, this is why)

 

The distal radius (the forearm bone on the thumb side) is not flat as it goes from the pinky to the thumb side, there is an angle (this portion of the radius is termed the radial styloid), which limits range of motion. Put your hand outward and hitch hike, now **** your wrist.... next...... cup and ****.....more wrist ****

 

The cup circumvents the anatomic limitations of the distal radius. More wrist **** more leverage. Releasing it early as I said earlier would be akin to casting.

 

 

 

 

PS Dead above the waist 'ol man....... what about below, I'll send you a script for some little blue pills..... he he he

 

PSS I guess this post can also go into the wrist cup thread

[Swoosh-Thud]

One more thing...........

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Elbow drop/laid off, face to sky......s*** works

 

 

 

 

[Dariusz J.]

JD

all the answers are in Morad..you know i tell you the thruth..take the blue pill...or maybe the othert one..not sure matrix is old movie...find the guy who uses a name associated with water..has the answers truly ..ran them up and down the flagpole..its all what you seek

 

Eight, I have a high respect to MORAD but the availability of their info very pathetic. Luckily for us, Dana and his staff does a great job for MORAD being present on various fora (his own great one included), however, 95% of info concerns S&T swing theory.

I would be very anxious to know MORAD's view on Hogan's post-secret swing motion, the more I was informed that Mac O'Grady (and his followers) had/has a serious level of know-how in biomechanics.

 

Cheers

[Dariusz J.]

One more thing...........

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Elbow drop/laid off, face to sky......s*** works

 

 

 

 

Great pics, Frank. They confirms Texan's theory perfectly. The question is still unanswered though - what caused Hogan to do this move and what was first, chicken or egg, i.e. Hogan's wrist action caused the elbow moving forward or Hogan's elbow action caused cupping down of his right wrist.

And the most important question, no matter if the egg or the chicken are first - how to automate this motion. I know I sound as a broken record, but this is the most important question, IMHO.

 

Cheers

[RJC59]

wouldnt simply pulling the shaft down with the right hand cause this? its a pretty simple thought thats easy to perform.. so its basically automated.

[longdrive55]

I've been able to reproduce the same feeling that Magnum talks about in the backswing, but I got away from working on the feeling as I just felt like I was taking the club back too far inside and coming up with some occasional bad hooks. I think now that instead of too far inside I was really just creating a low swing plane as Dariusz has described. Also, in retrospect it now seems that my strong right hand grip was probably the cause of the hooking problems.

 

I will say that getting this feeling has been elusive with longer clubs, with the very different weight distribution they require at address. I was able to ingrain it best when working on the 9-3 drill and actively limiting my left arm to horizontal/just past horizontal position to end my backswing. By doing that, the full rotation of the left arm and ultimately the bowing action of the left wrist and the clubhead pointing to the sky at the end of the backswing/start of transition, seemed to just happen.

 

As Magnum mentioned, it's about just trusting the dynamic movement and feeling that weight of the clubhead. Let the weight pull your wrists into that position just as the backswing ends/you start your transition. Then just let the pivot/core turn catch the arms and pull them through impact with all that stored lag ready to release into the ball. If you are pivoting correctly and releasing low and left you shouldn't need any manipulation to square the clubface and hit powerful shots. I was hitting them great this way, but the hooks scared me away.

 

The 9-3 drill with a limited backswing helped me to find this feeling. I'm going back to the range to try and find this feeling again with the weaker right hand grip we've all been discussing and that Slicefixer recommended to me. YMMV, but it might be worth a try.

 

Thanks to Dariusz for his unending investigation into the "automatic" biokinetic swing. It has been enlightening and very helpful to me. Good luck all!

[HoganAfficianado]

"Elbow drop/laid off, face to sky......s*** works"

 

I must be mis-interpreting this statement because if you look at the first pic of Hogan at the top the face of the club is wide open and you can see the shine off the face. In the second pic, the face is still open, just not as much. Can you elaborate on the "face to the sky" comment?