Hogan´s Bowed Wrist

[chris_golf]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1280941161' post='2618116']
I agree with KC golfer. THat angle looks very nice. I think you should continue fooling with this. Chris, what exactly are you doing to bow your wrists? And where are you doing it? It is interesting what you say about the 5* because that is a similar idea that Martinez has (regarding an open club face), and he has a bowed wrist. But his is not manipulated. You know Hogan's clubs were bent to sit open, dont you?
[/quote]

I never liked the idea to bow or supinate, but I believe it has something to do with the grip.

My normal grip feels strong at setup and weak at impact. I was looking for weak at setup and strong at impact...
I had to practice it first with my left arm and hand only until I hit balls with my left arm only and sure trial and error time!
How I do it - I am not 100 % sure - it feels like a a left wrist chop onplane from P5 to P6 downwards to uncock and this rotates the forearm, but at the
same time you have to counter it with your upper arm (rotator cuff) - hopefully I can explain this move later better...

Chris

[Matt1960]

[quote name='Snakeshirt' timestamp='1280940001' post='2618076']

In my opinion the bounce is not the key for not digging too deep into the turf.

For me it seems that your body rotation slows down or almost stops before impact. Whch means that the rotation is not pulling the clubhead through the impact and your senses tell you need to cast the clubhead to be able to hit the ball.

However I am watching the vids from my mobile so may be very wrong with my notes. But usually my deep divots are caused by not rotating enough which causes me to cast, so perhaps it would be worth checking. Even though usually the actual cause of my insufficient body rotation is somewhere else, footwork, hip slide, etc.

Nice swing you have there anyways!
[/quote]

I fully agree about the rotation, but I think there is more to producing shallow divots.
And if you look at the previous frames of Chris, you will probably see why the divot pattern is so difficult.
You will see a slight cup in the left wrist through impact and not a bow. The bow happens after this frame.
(attachment=637538:bowed wrist.JPG)

What we have to remember, is that the more the hands are in front of the ball at impact the more the hands are moving away from the ground.
This is happening at the same time as release.
If we do not get the hands sufficiently ahead of the ball at impact, then they are at the bottom of their arc. At this stage, the release can cause deep divots (unless other compensaions are put in place).

Matt

[chris_golf]

[quote name='Matt1960' timestamp='1281039025' post='2620870'] I fully agree about the rotation, but I think there is more to producing shallow divots. And if you look at the previous frames of Chris, you will probably see why the divot pattern is so difficult. You will see a slight cup in the left wrist through impact and not a bow. The bow happens after this frame. (attachment=637538:bowed wrist.JPG) What we have to remember, is that the more the hands are in front of the ball at impact the more the hands are moving away from the ground. This is happening at the same time as release. If we do not get the hands sufficiently ahead of the ball at impact, then they are at the bottom of their arc. At this stage, the release can cause deep divots (unless other compensaions are put in place). Matt [/quote] [b]Now I know why the MORAD CP guys backing up there body´s at impact... But I did not say I nailed it down - I am showing my first attempts to do what Mr. Hogan called supination... And you are right, with my left arm only practice I have my arm way more in front - so I must bow even more...[/b] <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/jvk39r1G9rw&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/jvk39r1G9rw&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="640" height="385"></object> [b]The deep divot is coming mostly from tipping out my clubshaft, but I think on the day I learned to shift my left arm more out.... it will help as well... But stil I am not sure how this will work with the bounce if I have at impact 10 degree forward leanl... Please feel free to show me how your experience with a bowed left wrist looks and works... Chris [/b]

[Matt1960]

Chris,
I have never really tried to have a bowed left wrist, so am unable to show you. But it must be hugely difficult to do, changing impact always is. You have done very well so far.
What I have noticed with those that have bowed left wrists at impact, is that the majority have weakish left hand grips (not all), as then bowing is a good way to get the hands in front. With a strong left grip, I think bowing is less necessary as you are able to get the hands ahead without it.
I wonder if keeping the head a little more behind the ball with the left hand swing would help or hinder the bow.

[Guest]

[quote name='hanon' timestamp='1239831043' post='1633002']
In "Five Lesson" Hogan explains that at impact the left wrist must start to supinate. He really don´t explain how to get the bowed left wrist if he starts from a cupped wrist at the top.

I think this maybe one of the biggest points about his so called secret.

[attachment=391514:Supination_Hogan.JPG]

Looking at the drawing from the book: you can see how he goes from a cupped wrist to a bowed wrist -not a flat wrist- getting the raised wristbone closer to the target than his left hand during impact. He seems to roll his left hand into the ball to get his knuckles to point toward the ground.

How did he really get it?
[/quote]

Good question. As you can see in the sketches, the move, happens when the heel of the wrist no longer directes the shaft and the bowed wrist leads. This move accomplishes two things, 1.The clubface will close, 2. The lag in the club can be maintained longer. It is a classic move and works well to further manipulate the clubface and angles of attack

[Guest]

If I may, I would like to add one observation that I've noticed. Their are three things Hogand did in all his swings. These are the things that allowed Hogan to repeat the swing. However, when shaping shots, the rest of Hogans moves are debatable as to sequense and execution. Their are at least four other ares that can adjust, even during his swing that Hogan uses to execute shots, the bowed wrist is one of them. I have yet to view any video where Hogan states his shot and then executes it, that is where the mystery lies. That is my opinion as I see and interpet Hogans swing. 1lovegolf

[chris_golf]

[b]Just found the video to the pic of Mr. Hogan... Sure this swing he used only for his aproach shots.. <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/sNhk_BOGeeU?fs=1&hl=de_DE"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/sNhk_BOGeeU?fs=1&hl=de_DE" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></object> He had different releases for different ballflights - but this in the video is amazing... exactly what he wrote - his right hand (arm) is always under the left... Chris [/b]

[michaelgb888]

Does anybody here believe in a flat wrist at top (or even slightluy cupped as long as its loaded/firm) and then letting it flaten/bow more in transition until impact? Can't really see any reason for cupping. Re balance, maybe Hogan cupped it because he will be out of balance in front of a picture shoot!

[dap]

[quote name='michaelgb888' timestamp='1289969507' post='2794466']
Does anybody here believe in a flat wrist at top (or even slightluy cupped as long as its loaded/firm) and then letting it flaten/bow more in transition until impact? Can't really see any reason for cupping. Re balance, maybe Hogan cupped it because he will be out of balance in front of a picture shoot!
[/quote]
There is no reason for cupping.If you watch all of the great players,how many cup their left wrist at the top?Hogan would be about the only one and even then it looks only marginally cupped to my eyes.

Tiger,Nicklaus,Snead,Trevino,Palmer,Player,Watson,Nelson all had a flat or slightly arched left wrist at the top.

[bossanovawitcha]

[quote name='hanon' timestamp='1240218420' post='1642590']
[quote name='Noallegiance' post='1636701' date='Apr 17 2009, 01:32 PM']I thought the ideal way of picturing the action was mentioned in 5 lessons anyway?

He clearly says that Jimmy Damaret was the best at this and it looked like he was lashing the ball with the back of his left hand.

Imagine your giving someone a back-hander and you can't go wrong.[/quote]

I think you are right.This is what Hogan wrote in his book. The feeling is LASHING down the ball. Hogan explains that Jimmy Demaret was a master in doint that. Does anybody know if Demaret has any book explaining that?

Look the next picture from "Five Lessons" . Hogan clearly goes from a cupped left wrist to a bowed left wrist. He said that this stage was like the "old two hand pass in basketball"

[attachment=393697:pron_supin.gif]
[/quote]


I am not sure if Hogan consciously or unconsciously did it, but to get to the bowed left wrist position and right arm 'covering' the left, you can perform the 'Harley' - 'give it gas' with the right hand.. which bows the left wrist, puts the right arm on top, and closes the clubface to plane (I believe)..

It has helped my ballstriking tremendously.

The supination of the left wrist happens automatically when you get the right hand on top (and open) - you just have to 'swing left' from there.

I am right-handed, so 'pulling with my left arm' was never comfortable. However, pulling with my left LAT, a bigger muscle, works great. The left elbow supinates easier - pretty much automatically - from this position. Relaxed forearms a la Els swing thought helps in this regard as well. You cannot 'swing left' well with tight forearms - but you can swing hard and it'll happen on its own.

[bossanovawitcha]

[quote name='bossanovawitcha' timestamp='1340679548' post='5167926']
[quote name='hanon' timestamp='1240218420' post='1642590']
[quote name='Noallegiance' post='1636701' date='Apr 17 2009, 01:32 PM']I thought the ideal way of picturing the action was mentioned in 5 lessons anyway?

He clearly says that Jimmy Damaret was the best at this and it looked like he was lashing the ball with the back of his left hand.

Imagine your giving someone a back-hander and you can't go wrong.[/quote]

I think you are right.This is what Hogan wrote in his book. The feeling is LASHING down the ball. Hogan explains that Jimmy Demaret was a master in doint that. Does anybody know if Demaret has any book explaining that?

Look the next picture from "Five Lessons" . Hogan clearly goes from a cupped left wrist to a bowed left wrist. He said that this stage was like the "old two hand pass in basketball"

[attachment=393697:pron_supin.gif]
[/quote]


I am not sure if Hogan consciously or unconsciously did it, but to get to the bowed left wrist position and right arm 'covering' the left, you can perform the 'Harley' - 'give it gas' with the right hand.. which bows the left wrist, puts the right arm on top, and closes the clubface to plane (I believe)..

It has helped my ballstriking tremendously.

The supination of the left wrist happens automatically when you get the right hand on top (and open) - you just have to 'swing left' from there.

I am right-handed, so 'pulling with my left arm' was never comfortable. However, pulling with my left LAT, a bigger muscle, works great. The left elbow supinates easier - pretty much automatically - from this position. Relaxed forearms a la Els swing thought helps in this regard as well. You cannot 'swing left' well with tight forearms - but you can swing hard and it'll happen on its own.
[/quote]


another feel I get from this 'give it gas' 'bowed left' 'right hand on top of left' feel - it is much easier to feel the trigger finger lag pressure. So much it feels simple to just direct the energy down into the ball and the club wants to exit left if my spine angle was maintained.

[bossanovawitcha]

[quote name='michaelgb888' timestamp='1289969507' post='2794466']
Does anybody here believe in a flat wrist at top (or even slightluy cupped as long as its loaded/firm) and then letting it flaten/bow more in transition until impact? Can't really see any reason for cupping. Re balance, maybe Hogan cupped it because he will be out of balance in front of a picture shoot!
[/quote]

I've been cupping lately at the top to avoid hitting left so much (unlike Hogan I can still hit a draw with it, maybe new equipment, or maybe I'm not cupping enough or flipping a bit).. It avoids the duck hook for sure. But I do get elevated ballflight from the cup, and it is easier to hit the fade.. I have heard Faldo talk about cupping to hit it high / fade before.

The draw or low draw seems to come naturally when bowed depending on swing speed (but I think about my right hand pulling the grip open (giving it gas) to accentuate / bow the left when I want to over stress the swing thought).. however with the 'floppy wrist' feel, leading with the bowed wrist and letting it b-slap the ball - you can feel your right hand 'closing the door' with not conscious effort, because you can't and don't want to hold it off (and what I believe is a slap-hinge release but I'll leave it to the TGM pro's), one can hit the high draw from that position. I think Dustin Johnson might the model for that (bowed to slap happy).

[fats]

[quote name='chris_golf' timestamp='1282423269' post='2653508']
[b]Just found the video to the pic of Mr. Hogan... Sure this swing he used only for his aproach shots.. <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/sNhk_BOGeeU?fs=1&hl=de_DE"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/sNhk_BOGeeU?fs=1&hl=de_DE" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></object> He had different releases for different ballflights - but this in the video is amazing... exactly what he wrote - his right hand (arm) is always under the left... Chris [/b]
[/quote]

Looks more like he had a horrible lie and dug it out to me.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='fats' timestamp='1340740818' post='5172266']
[quote name='chris_golf' timestamp='1282423269' post='2653508']
[b]Just found the video to the pic of Mr. Hogan... Sure this swing he used only for his aproach shots.. <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/sNhk_BOGeeU?fs=1&hl=de_DE"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/sNhk_BOGeeU?fs=1&hl=de_DE" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></object> He had different releases for different ballflights - but this in the video is amazing... exactly what he wrote - his right hand (arm) is always under the left... Chris [/b]
[/quote]

Looks more like he had a horrible lie and dug it out to me.
[/quote]

Do you thInk a flat L wrist is an objective in itself? Or is it just a function of L wrist position in relation to the low point desirable for the ball flight you wanna hit?

[Siteseer2]

Gonna share a "secret".... bowed left wrist is a function of left forearm (forearm only!, not wrist or ulnar) SUPINATION.... the more you pronate that left forearm the more cup you get and the more you supinate the left forearm the more bow....left wrist angle is a function of where the grip is in left hand but the pronation/supination is the key ingredient. On the right arm, the pronation/supination dichotomy leads to varying dgrees of pitch elbow versus punch elbow. This assumes you dont spin the shaft and get too far under or over plane with the sweetspot; if u do, then all bets are off...fwiw

[svsvincenzo]

Thanks. Now at least there are around 3 of us against 20 in here re supination vs non-supination...lol But no thanks as you will now slow down their suffering...lol...

Folks there is a gold nugget in there...at least its not me who let out the "secret"...lol

Site, not sure if I get you on the over-spinning shaft...the L shoulder pivot and R armpit connection are keys in avoiding or making it impossible despite pronation, correct?

[fats]

[quote name='chris_golf' timestamp='1280935922' post='2617900']
[b]Maybe most people think now Chris is totaly nuts with 3 mayor works in progress, but they are all interact to each other... Start of my backswing, shifting the left arm out and this bowed left wrist... <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vK89NkpjAB8&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vK89NkpjAB8&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="640" height="385"></object> I was never a fan of this bowed left wrist or any supination, but what I caught on video today makes my thinking quite different. <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/G3l_EpflGXQ&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/G3l_EpflGXQ&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="640" height="385"></object> <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/g4Hkkv6oTts&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/g4Hkkv6oTts&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="640" height="385"></object> What I like is much more extension at and after impact even now I can´t seperate hinge action and hinge motion. I would aswell gain trajectory control. With my left arm not shifting out it can´t work properly, because the clubhead is tipping out...I used my gabwedge with 8 degree bounce and yes even with this bounce I aerifyed the turf. My wrist just don´t want to do this, because the sole digs plenty into the ground... There are two options available if I go this way: bending my clubs open or counterbalance somehow and a different horizontal and vertical clubmovement... maybe something in the middle... There are any bowed wrist´s out there??? If I remember correctly, even in the first edition´s of TGM they preferred a bowed left wrist at impact... Chris[/b]
[/quote]

[b]You are doing a lot of things right (congratulations) but Chris, the depth of divot is gross!! I 100% disagree with going that deep into the turf. Shallow them out and you have something. Digging to China creates more left wrist bend. Dangerous stuff as you will hurt your tendons. Divot is fine but you should see the grass roots afterwards. [/b]

[neilvaron]

I actually have a question concerning supination. Ive lately tried achieving soft wrists in order to allow more clubhead speed. I cant seem to get a bowed left wrist and keep it all without tension. Thoughts would be appreciated. best Neil

[svsvincenzo]

Make sure the L wrist is ahead of the ball by the time you hit the ball.

[Jobu]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1289973979' post='2794527']

There is no reason for cupping.If you watch all of the great players,how many cup their left wrist at the top?Hogan would be about the only one and even then it looks only marginally cupped to my eyes.

Tiger,Nicklaus,Snead,Trevino,Palmer,Player,Watson,Nelson all had a flat or slightly arched left wrist at the top.
[/quote]

there is significant reason to cup the wrist at the top. If you knew what hogan was doing you would see why it is absolutely necessary. The secret in the dirt has nothing to do with mechanics. It's not spkies or screwing feet into the ground. Moe Norman didn't know his secret. It's not even Hogan's secret. He was like all of you trying to figure out someone else's secret, except he knew where to look and figured it out for himself. So just imagine how hard it was to figure it out back then with no internet and youtube. It's not that big of a task anymore.

[Jobu]

[quote name='neilvaron' timestamp='1341892831' post='5247552']
I actually have a question concerning supination. Ive lately tried achieving soft wrists in order to allow more clubhead speed. I cant seem to get a bowed left wrist and keep it all without tension. Thoughts would be appreciated. best Neil
[/quote]

you probably don't need to incorporate this move into your swing.

[kraz]

Not too knowledgabe in this stuff but...

from my own experimentation, any rolling toward a bow position on downswing seems to make the hands uncock a bit due to physical limitations. If the hands are forced to uncock, there must be a force exerted on the club that gives it a bias towards releasing.

What Ive been doing lately and whats possibly going on in hogans swing, is:

1) swinging on hand arc that doesnt go left until about waist level which maintains lag
2) a fairly tight direction change of hands toward target starting a rapid release of lag.
3) A bowing motion during this period adds rotational force and the club lag is now unwinding fairly violently.
4) From there you can move the handle almost as fast as you want. No need to stall - the club is releasing plenty fast regardless. And i suspect the faster you move the handle at impact the less face rotation there is during hitting zone.

Anyway, just some results of experimentation and speculation on my part feel free to try things out and see if you come to similar conclusions.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='kraz' timestamp='1346291546' post='5558313']
Not too knowledgabe in this stuff but...

from my own experimentation, any rolling toward a bow position on downswing seems to make the hands uncock a bit due to physical limitations. If the hands are forced to uncock, there must be a force exerted on the club that gives it a bias towards releasing.

What Ive been doing lately and whats possibly going on in hogans swing, is:

1) swinging on hand arc that doesnt go left until about waist level which maintains lag
2) a fairly tight direction change of hands toward target starting a rapid release of lag.
3) A bowing motion during this period adds rotational force and the club lag is now unwinding fairly violently.
4) From there you can move the handle almost as fast as you want. No need to stall - the club is releasing plenty fast regardless. And i suspect the faster you move the handle at impact the less face rotation there is during hitting zone.

Anyway, just some results of experimentation and speculation on my part feel free to try things out and see if you come to similar conclusions.
[/quote]

Specially 4th one is really important part of that motion. And you can move the handle only as fast as you can when you fire it to the left, not toward the target.

And when the effect of bowing motion is fully understood and how the effect changes with different ways to grip the club, also Hogans change to short thumb as a part of his secret is understood.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1346307231' post='5559235']
[quote name='kraz' timestamp='1346291546' post='5558313']
Not too knowledgabe in this stuff but...

from my own experimentation, any rolling toward a bow position on downswing seems to make the hands uncock a bit due to physical limitations. If the hands are forced to uncock, there must be a force exerted on the club that gives it a bias towards releasing.

What Ive been doing lately and whats possibly going on in hogans swing, is:

1) swinging on hand arc that doesnt go left until about waist level which maintains lag
2) a fairly tight direction change of hands toward target starting a rapid release of lag.
3) A bowing motion during this period adds rotational force and the club lag is now unwinding fairly violently.
4) From there you can move the handle almost as fast as you want. No need to stall - the club is releasing plenty fast regardless. And i suspect the faster you move the handle at impact the less face rotation there is during hitting zone.

Anyway, just some results of experimentation and speculation on my part feel free to try things out and see if you come to similar conclusions.
[/quote]

Specially 4th one is really important part of that motion. And you can move the handle only as fast as you can when you fire it to the left, not toward the target.

And when the effect of bowing motion is fully understood and how the effect changes with different ways to grip the club, also Hogans change to short thumb as a part of his secret is understood.
[/quote]

Intentionally bowing the L wrist is a power drain.

And Hogan didn't have a short L thumb. He didn't do it nor said it. He said he had a "modified short thumb". He didn't say "short thumb" per se. He said "modified short thumb". Then he went on describing it...he said he had a "long thumb" back then, then pulled the thumb by half an inch. Plus he said its a personal modification, not a fundamental.

The fundamental is that he moved the L thumb sideways towards the top (12 o'clock). Makes sense because that's the one that aligns the back of the L hand with the sweetspot/clubface.

Otoh, if your L thumb is long, how can you have a short thumb?...you'd have to cut it off...lol

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1346336500' post='5560205']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1346307231' post='5559235']
[quote name='kraz' timestamp='1346291546' post='5558313']
Not too knowledgabe in this stuff but...

from my own experimentation, any rolling toward a bow position on downswing seems to make the hands uncock a bit due to physical limitations. If the hands are forced to uncock, there must be a force exerted on the club that gives it a bias towards releasing.

What Ive been doing lately and whats possibly going on in hogans swing, is:

1) swinging on hand arc that doesnt go left until about waist level which maintains lag
2) a fairly tight direction change of hands toward target starting a rapid release of lag.
3) A bowing motion during this period adds rotational force and the club lag is now unwinding fairly violently.
4) From there you can move the handle almost as fast as you want. No need to stall - the club is releasing plenty fast regardless. And i suspect the faster you move the handle at impact the less face rotation there is during hitting zone.

Anyway, just some results of experimentation and speculation on my part feel free to try things out and see if you come to similar conclusions.
[/quote]

Specially 4th one is really important part of that motion. And you can move the handle only as fast as you can when you fire it to the left, not toward the target.

And when the effect of bowing motion is fully understood and how the effect changes with different ways to grip the club, also Hogans change to short thumb as a part of his secret is understood.
[/quote]

Intentionally bowing the L wrist is a power drain.

And Hogan didn't have a short L thumb. He didn't do it nor said it. He said he had a "modified short thumb". He didn't say "short thumb" per se. He said "modified short thumb". Then he went on describing it...he said he had a "long thumb" back then, then pulled the thumb by half an inch. Plus he said its a personal modification, not a fundamental.

[b]The fundamental is that he moved the L thumb sideways towards the top (12 o'clock). [/b]Makes sense because that's the one that aligns the back of the L hand with the sweetspot/clubface.

Otoh, if your L thumb is long, how can you have a short thumb?...you'd have to cut it off...lol
[/quote]

You got it exactly backwards. The fundamental grip had the left thumb slightly to the right side of the shaft. Hogan said his turning the left hand 1/2" to the left was also a personal modification (as was the short thumb).

5L, pg. 32:

I made my second alteration in 1946, moving my left hand a good half inch to the left. I was working then to find some way of retaining my power while curbing my occasional tendency to hook. Moving my left hand over so that the thumb was directly down the middle of the shaft was the first step in licking that problem. I regard both of these changes as personal modifications or adjustments.

[svsvincenzo]

Hmmm...I stand corrected...but the "modified short thumb" is a personal modification too...so not exactly backwards. So both the modified short thumb and L thumb are both personal modifications.

However, the real fundamental is on around page 22, with an illustration showing the V of the L thumb and index finger pointing to the R eye, with the L thumb on top of the shaft.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1346336500' post='5560205']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1346307231' post='5559235']
[quote name='kraz' timestamp='1346291546' post='5558313']
Not too knowledgabe in this stuff but...

from my own experimentation, any rolling toward a bow position on downswing seems to make the hands uncock a bit due to physical limitations. If the hands are forced to uncock, there must be a force exerted on the club that gives it a bias towards releasing.

What Ive been doing lately and whats possibly going on in hogans swing, is:

1) swinging on hand arc that doesnt go left until about waist level which maintains lag
2) a fairly tight direction change of hands toward target starting a rapid release of lag.
3) A bowing motion during this period adds rotational force and the club lag is now unwinding fairly violently.
4) From there you can move the handle almost as fast as you want. No need to stall - the club is releasing plenty fast regardless. And i suspect the faster you move the handle at impact the less face rotation there is during hitting zone.

Anyway, just some results of experimentation and speculation on my part feel free to try things out and see if you come to similar conclusions.
[/quote]

Specially 4th one is really important part of that motion. And you can move the handle only as fast as you can when you fire it to the left, not toward the target.

And when the effect of bowing motion is fully understood and how the effect changes with different ways to grip the club, also Hogans change to short thumb as a part of his secret is understood.
[/quote]

Intentionally bowing the L wrist is a power drain.

And Hogan didn't have a short L thumb. He didn't do it nor said it. He said he had a "modified short thumb". He didn't say "short thumb" per se. He said "modified short thumb". Then he went on describing it...he said he had a "long thumb" back then, then pulled the thumb by half an inch. Plus he said its a personal modification, not a fundamental.

The fundamental is that he moved the L thumb sideways towards the top (12 o'clock). Makes sense because that's the one that aligns the back of the L hand with the sweetspot/clubface.

Otoh, if your L thumb is long, how can you have a short thumb?...you'd have to cut it off...lol
[/quote]

No mean to play with words. He went from longer thumb (more perpendicular grip) to shorter thumb (more parallel)

And there was a good reason for that with bowing.

[svsvincenzo]

Yes. You HAVE TO bow with that to be more accurate. But IMO that's a power drain. As Fats said way back, that's a brake.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1346384648' post='5564229']
Yes. You HAVE TO bow with that to be more accurate. But IMO that's a power drain. As Fats said way back, that's a brake.
[/quote]

So many years I thought club head speed is what we have to get. I still do, but it's strongly connected to the whole club speed and by that to the hand speed.

And in that case bowing is not a brake if player can accelerate the grip end of the club. I know it's not possible to really accelerate it, but adding the force to that part to prevent the deceleration is the same thing for me.

[svsvincenzo]

Assuming golfer A and B both have same hand speed, if A is bowing the L wrist and B is not, B will have faster clubhead speed.

Edit: I mean A is INTENTIONALLY bowing the L wrist, B is not.