Definition of Grounding the Club

[DaveLeeNC]

.. WRT putting and the definition of 'addressed the ball'

I'm in the process of making a minor change to my putting pre-shot routine. The new steps are:

1) Read the putt (however you do it)
2) Ground the club (two-ball Odyssey putter) 3 or so inches behind the ball to establish the line WRT the putter. With a Two-Ball putter I find this somewhat helpful vs. lining the club up directly behind the ball.
3) Take your stance
4) Move the putter behind the ball but 'hover it' (ala' Nicklaus)

So have I addressed the ball? I think that the answer revolves around the exact definition of grounding the club which isn't defined in the RoG (that I see - but maybe it is in there somewhere that I didn't expect).

The only time that this would be likely to matter is when playing in very high winds on very fast greens when the ball might move just due to the wind. SO this is more of academic than practical interest.

Thanks.

dave

[robert horneman]

Nickiaus never placed the putter on the ground. In the event the ball moved he would not be penalized,
A player has addressed the ball when he/she has taken a stance and grounded a club.

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='robert horneman' date='31 May 2010 - 04:28 PM' timestamp='1275337708' post='2478339']
Nickiaus never placed the putter on the ground. In the event the ball moved he would not be penalized,
A player has addressed the ball when he/she has taken a stance and grounded a club.
[/quote]

All that is correct. But the question is the definition of 'grounding a club'. I would assume that placing a club (on the ground) 1 mile behind the ball is not grounding the club. I would also assume that placing a club on the ground 1 Planck length (1.6 x 10**-35 meters) behind the ball is grounding the club.

What are the factors that make this distinction? Is it just distance (if so then what is it). Is it intent? Is it if you have taken your stance and the club touches the ground behind the ball anywhere and that is enough?

dave

[OpusX20]

Interesting question Dave. I see your point about placing the club one mile behind the ball vs. one Planck. If I were a rules official assisting you in this academic situation, I would lean towards saying you have grounded the club. In a judgement call such as this, the Rules seem to put the "burden of proof" on the player.

There is no direct Rule or Decision I know of to back up my opinion. But, here is a Decision that offers a little guidance.

[i]Decision 18-2a/30
Question: A player took several practice swings about one foot from his ball which was lying in light rough, and his club came in contact with the ground. He then took his stance, touched grass behind the ball with the clubhead but did not ground the club. At that point the ball moved. The player claimed that no penalty was incurred because he had not addressed the ball. However, the Committee judged that the practice swings and the touching of the grass behind the ball caused the ball to move, and therefore the player incurred a penalty stroke under Rule 18-2a. Was the Committee correct?

Answer: It is a question of fact whether the player caused his ball to move and thus incurred a penalty under Rule 18-2a. Because of the practice swings and touching of the grass, the weight of evidence is against the player and therefore the Committee's decision was correct. (Revised)
[/i]
The above Decision references "one foot" from the ball. What if it were two, five, ten, a thousand feet? Similar to your situation, the Rules do not give a specific distance requirement. There is simply some level of judgement that would need to be exercised by the player and the Committee. Also, there are couple of situations in the Decisions where you will see something to the effect of, "If there is a doubt as to whether the player caused the ball to move should be resolved against the player." In my opinion, placing the club 3 or so inches behind the ball, would likely be enough to rule against you in this type of hypothetical situation. Just my $.02. I'd love to hear some other opinions on this.

[DaveLeeNC]

Interesting analysis, Opus.

It is better than my answer (I didn't have one). But I wonder if this would hold in a practical situation (ball moved on the green on a steep green slope in high winds). In this case it would be more clear as to what caused the ball to move (wind) and what didn't (your putter).

But still.....

dave

[marrigo]

Question: how do you go about step 2 (grounding putter 3 inches behind)? Are you close to your address position or are you completely behind the ball along the line of the putt?

Question 2: Between steps 2 and 3 is the putter still on the ground when you take your stance or do you lift the putter before that?

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='marrigo' date='01 June 2010 - 07:50 AM' timestamp='1275393035' post='2479602']
Question: how do you go about step 2 (grounding putter 3 inches behind)? Are you close to your address position or are you completely behind the ball along the line of the putt?

Question 2: Between steps 2 and 3 is the putter still on the ground when you take your stance or do you lift the putter before that?
[/quote]

The putter is still 'grounded' 3" behind the ball during step 3 (taking your stance). THen the putter is moved to 'the real address position' (WRT to putter clubhead), but hovered at that point through the beginning of the stroke.

dave

[w104jmn]

I would consider this grounding the club, and you would have a hard time arguing if someone else thought the same. Protect yourself! If you don't want to ground it, then don't at all.

[marrigo]

[quote name='w104jmn' date='01 June 2010 - 08:26 AM' timestamp='1275395198' post='2479632']
I would consider this grounding the club, and you would have a hard time arguing if someone else thought the same. Protect yourself! If you don't want to ground it, then don't at all.
[/quote]

I agree. As long as you have taken your stance and the putter is touching the ground behind the ball I would consider it grounded. The distance is irrelevant (planck length, light-nano second, siriometer, picometre etc....) as long as you have taken a stance.

[grabthepin]

I recall the R&A indicating that the club must be grounded [b]immediately[/b] behind the ball for an 18-2b penalty (ball moved after address.)

So 3" you'd be safe from 18-2b, but still at the mercy of 18-2a if you may have caused it to move (which is unlikely on a putting green).

A somewhat similar line of thinking is shown in Dec18-2b/4, where you won't get done by 18-2b if you haven't shuffled your feet into their [b]final[/b] position yet.

[Sawgrass]

I'm with those who feel that the club resting on the ground [u]after[/u] you've taken your stance is the determining factor, rather than how many inches behind the ball you touch down. (You can't do that from a mile away unless you have really long legs.)

But as an aside Dave, this sort of thing would be in my head every time I putted if I was using that procedure. If you're not in the habit of putting the putter down to aim, you at least have a choice when it's windy to keep the putter up before you hit. Is it really worth it to go through the three-inch thing? Maybe a safer choice is to use an aiming line on the ball.

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='Sawgrass' date='01 June 2010 - 10:30 AM' timestamp='1275402652' post='2479821']
I'm with those who feel that the club resting on the ground [u]after[/u] you've taken your stance is the determining factor, rather than how many inches behind the ball you touch down. (You can't do that from a mile away unless you have really long legs.)

But as an aside Dave, this sort of thing would be in my head every time I putted if I was using that procedure. If you're not in the habit of putting the putter down to aim, you at least have a choice when it's windy to keep the putter up before you hit. Is it really worth it to go through the three-inch thing? Maybe a safer choice is to use an aiming line on the ball.
[/quote]

As I said in the originating post, it is more of an academic question vs. a practical one.

dave

[jjj912]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' date='31 May 2010 - 04:00 PM' timestamp='1275336016' post='2478260']
I'm in the process of making a minor change to my putting pre-shot routine. The new steps are:

1) Read the putt (however you do it)
2) Ground the club (two-ball Odyssey putter) [b][u]3 or so inches behind the ball[/u][/b] to establish the line WRT the putter. With a Two-Ball putter I find this somewhat helpful vs. lining the club up directly behind the ball.
3) Take your stance
4) Move the putter behind the ball but 'hover it' (ala' Nicklaus)

So have I [b]addressed[/b] the ball?
...
[/quote]

I would say that you have addressed the ball.

I'll start my argument with a pair of definitions

[i]Addressing the Ball
A player has “addressed the ball” when he has taken his stance
and has also grounded his club, except that in a hazard a player
has addressed the ball when he has taken his stance.[/i]

[i]Stance
Taking the “stance” consists in a player placing his feet in position for and preparatory to making a stroke.[/i]

In your case, you grounded the club prior to taking your stance, but the definition doesn't require any specific order. You note that your club is a few inches from the ball, but the definition doesn't state a distance requirement. You meet the conditions for addressing the ball: club on ground and stance taken.

Here are two decisions that, while not addressing your specific situation, do seem to indicate that touching ground with the club consitutes grounding the club.

[i]18-2b/5.5 Placing Clubhead on Ground in Front of Ball When Addressing
Q. A player takes his stance and places his clubhead on the ground in front of the ball without pressing anything down. Before the player grounds the club behind the ball, the ball moves. Has the player "addressed the ball" so that he is subject to penalty under Rule 18-2b?
A. Yes.[/i]

[i]18-2b/7 Ball Moves After Player Addresses It and Then Steps Away
Q. A player takes his stance and grounds his club. Realizing that the ball is precariously balanced and may move, he steps away from the ball and starts again. This time he does not ground his club, but before he strikes the ball, it moves. What is the ruling?
A. The player incurs a penalty stroke under Rule 18-2b, and the ball must be replaced.[/i]

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='jjj912' date='01 June 2010 - 11:30 AM' timestamp='1275406226' post='2479927']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' date='31 May 2010 - 04:00 PM' timestamp='1275336016' post='2478260']
I'm in the process of making a minor change to my putting pre-shot routine. The new steps are:

1) Read the putt (however you do it)
2) Ground the club (two-ball Odyssey putter) [b][u]3 or so inches behind the ball[/u][/b] to establish the line WRT the putter. With a Two-Ball putter I find this somewhat helpful vs. lining the club up directly behind the ball.
3) Take your stance
4) Move the putter behind the ball but 'hover it' (ala' Nicklaus)

So have I [b]addressed[/b] the ball?
...
[/quote]

I would say that you have addressed the ball.

I'll start my argument with a pair of definitions

[i]Addressing the Ball
A player has "addressed the ball" when he has taken his stance
and has also grounded his club, except that in a hazard a player
has addressed the ball when he has taken his stance.[/i]

[i]Stance
Taking the "stance" consists in a player placing his feet in position for and preparatory to making a stroke.[/i]

In your case, you grounded the club prior to taking your stance, but the definition doesn't require any specific order. You note that your club is a few inches from the ball, but the definition doesn't state a distance requirement. You meet the conditions for addressing the ball: club on ground and stance taken.

Here are two decisions that, while not addressing your specific situation, do seem to indicate that touching ground with the club consitutes grounding the club.

[i]18-2b/5.5 Placing Clubhead on Ground in Front of Ball When Addressing
Q. A player takes his stance and places his clubhead on the ground in front of the ball without pressing anything down. Before the player grounds the club behind the ball, the ball moves. Has the player "addressed the ball" so that he is subject to penalty under Rule 18-2b?
A. Yes.[/i]

[i]18-2b/7 Ball Moves After Player Addresses It and Then Steps Away
Q. A player takes his stance and grounds his club. Realizing that the ball is precariously balanced and may move, he steps away from the ball and starts again. This time he does not ground his club, but before he strikes the ball, it moves. What is the ruling?
A. The player incurs a penalty stroke under Rule 18-2b, and the ball must be replaced.[/i]
[/quote]

While I am not familiar with the previously referenced R&A decision, I would not argue (at least with any confidence) that you are wrong here.

However in this case I believe that it is encumbant on the rules making body(bodies) to be as precise as possible as, in the case being discussed, the ONLY reason for a penalty is consistency with the rules (it would be pretty clear that the player did NOT cause the ball to move for the case of having taken your stance and having placed the club 3" behind the ball on the green on a very windy day).

But as I said this is not an issue that I would expect to be a factor in my game. For YEARS I grounded the club behind the ball with no concern for the consequences (the only reason for the hover in step 4 is my observation that about once every 4-6 rounds I will slightly 'scratch the surface' on a putt (enough to come up a foot or more shorter than would be otherwise). This is a way to help avoid this minor issue.

dave

[grabthepin]

I found where I saw the R&A talking about grounding the club immediately behind the ball, but reading it again I'm not sure how much care was taken in writing the article.

[url="http://www.randa.org/node/39846%20%20"]The article[/url]

However I think it does illustrate the purpose of 18-2b (ball moving after address), when it says:

"we're not going to get into did you or didn't you touch it; we're going to deem it to be as a result of your actions"

With the club 3" behind the ball, there is no question whether you touched it (or caused it to move, being on the green).

Edit: fixed link (thx Dave)

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='jontyc' date='01 June 2010 - 08:33 PM' timestamp='1275438799' post='2481031']
I found where I saw the R&A talking about grounding the club immediately behind the ball, but reading it again I'm not sure how much care was taken in writing the article.

[url="http://http://www.randa.org/node/39846"]The article[/url]

However I think it does illustrate the purpose of 18-2b (ball moving after address), when it says:

"we’re not going to get into did you or didn’t you touch it; we’re going to deem it to be as a result of your actions"

With the club 3" behind the ball, there is no question whether you touched it (or caused it to move, being on the green).
[/quote]

Thanks for the link (fixed here [url="http://www.randa.org/node/39846"]http://www.randa.org/node/39846[/url] ).

The writer does use the term 'immediately behind the ball'. But I agree that it isn't clear that this was 'chosen carefully'.

dave