Explain "tour issue"

[Ultimate]

These posts hardly mention the other site, "BSG". What you are saying is "exactly" what everyone else on this thread is saying. Joe Kwok does every one of those services except bending heads. Why does he not bend heads? Because of not having the right equipment and not wanting the liability. TM says its takes them 10-15 heads sometimes to get one right. You are exactly right about sourcing the right tour head and having it tweaked to your specs shaft wise. The question to that end is what is the appropriate upcharge for that service and who do you want to have it done if, not done by the Tour Van? If I wanted a head bent a certain way, I would definetly get it that way from the beginning. Most of the top level clubmakers won't take the risk and if it breaks, they certainly won't take the liability.

 

 

Its interesting to note that alot of good players I've talked to will not even care about the LM numbers, actual/stated loft, etc. It just confuses them. They just want a club that produces the ball flight, feel, and control they want.

I think we are saying much the same thing. We'd probably agree that for somebody to pay eight hundred dollars for a tour driver on ebay, having never seen it or hit it, just because it is new and is a tour driver just like so-and-so on the PGATour is playing, then that is a pretty lame excuse on how to spend a lot of money.

On the other hand, if you are a good player who likes the FT-3, and you have tried a lot of retail FT-3s but weren't completely satisfied, and would like one that has a lower center of gravity and is 2 degrees open, would you go to that other web site and spend an additional 300 bucks over the price of a retail FT-3? For a completed club? Measured to your specs? No risk about what it is or might be or where it has been?

For some people, that is just a weekend of greens fees and a dinner. Well worth it, in other words, in the larger world of discretionary golf spending. And not at all silly or vain in terms of measurably different golf equipment.

You're right -- go to any NCAA event or US Am qualifier and you'll see lots of guys who play like we all dream of playing, all with 5-year old Pings and Titleist drivers from their local pro shops. They don't obsess about equipment online, and they just know what they like and what works for them. But at the same time, they have some pretty clear consensus, even if they don't know it; squarer-faced drivers, hand-ground sand wedges, etc., etc. Good players do tend to gravitate to the same things. If they knew the kinds of things that are discussed here, it might not change what they played with, but then again it just might...

[Gxgolfer]

On the other hand, if you are a good player who likes the FT-3, and you have tried a lot of retail FT-3s but weren't completely satisfied, and would like one that has a lower center of gravity and is 2 degrees open, would you go to that other web site and spend an additional 300 bucks over the price of a retail FT-3? For a completed club? Measured to your specs? No risk about what it is or might be or where it has been?

For some people, that is just a weekend of greens fees and a dinner. Well worth it, in other words, in the larger world of discretionary golf spending. And not at all silly or vain in terms of measurably different golf equipment.

 

That is an entirely different subject and that will derail this topic as there is a lot of "heated" opinions about the subject of their business.

[ozone]

Funny you mention "bending heads", and I dont know if this has already been mentioned, but one of the guys, engineers, on the TM tour van I was told busted 15-20 460's when the van first got them trying to get them bent....and he is a professional with the best knowledge of the dynamics of a certain club. Wild eh???

[Ultimate]

And yet, of the players on tour using heads that are traditional in design (that is, normal hosel configuration with standard bore) how many are playing clubs that have been bent in some way? Half? More than half? When you include fairway woods that have been bent? 80%? 90%? And how many players are using clubs with very-significant open face angles, like 4, 5, 6 or 7 degrees open? Just asking, for anybody who knows...

[PCGS / Graphite Design]

Hello Gentlemen,

 

I don't know what percent of PGA Tours players have their clubs bent but I would say it is more than 50% of the field. When we were working the US Open this year we had one player testing 8 Hybrids by Wednesday he was down to three, one being a Sonartec 21 MD*. The player ended up playing the MD after we bent the club 1* flat and 1* degree open.

 

2004 British Open Champion played 17* MD bent to 14*, 1 degree flat. So bending clubs on tour vans happens to be a standard thing.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Erik

 

And yet, of the players on tour using heads that are traditional in design (that is, normal hosel configuration with standard bore) how many are playing clubs that have been bent in some way? Half? More than half? When you include fairway woods that have been bent? 80%? 90%? And how many players are using clubs with very-significant open face angles, like 4, 5, 6 or 7 degrees open? Just asking, for anybody who knows...

[Gxgolfer]

Erik,

 

Is there a limit to how much a Sonartec can be bent? Also, one thing to note is that Callaway clubs don't have hosels for their woods to be bent...

[Ultimate]

Erik,

 

Is there a limit to how much a Sonartec can be bent? Also, one thing to note is that Callaway clubs don't have hosels for their woods to be bent...

My understanding is that Sonartec Mds (sweet clubs) bend like butter -- many hybrids and standard bore steel fairways bend quite easily. Big, thin-walled brittle titanium drivers are another matter altogether.

Callaway face angles can be adjusted with specially shimmed hosel sleeves -- very specialized components and clubmaking skills involved there. Again, while we all seem to be in general agreement that there is no tour-only magic dust, there are some specialized treatments that are measurably different. Perhaps none more important than face angles. If you want to square up or open up a Taylor Made TP (.335) driver, you had better think about bending it. If it is a Callaway FT-3, you'll need to look for one of the rare places that can do the shimmed hosel sleeve. I guess maybe Ping WRX could supply info on what is the deal with their drivers, and Titleists are often pretty close to square, with some notable exceptions, which may be why so many good amateurs who are clueless about the tour-equipment underground play with Titleist drivers--they are probably the closest things to square that they see sitting around in their local pro shops. Etc.,etc.,etc.

[mp-60/r7]

For me Tour issue means small sweetspot, open clubface and accurate measurements(loft, lie)

[PCGS / Graphite Design]

At Sonartec we state up to 2 degree to retailers and professional club builders. On a tour van, when trying to fit a top player in the world you will go to extreme levels. Don't forget when they break a club head on a tour van you can reach down to the drawer and try in it again to get it right.

 

Erik

 

Erik,

 

Is there a limit to how much a Sonartec can be bent? Also, one thing to note is that Callaway clubs don't have hosels for their woods to be bent...

[Ultimate]

At Sonartec we state up to 2 degree to retailers and professional club builders. On a tour van, when trying to fit a top player in the world you will go to extreme levels. Don't forget when they break a club head on a tour van you can reach down to the drawer and try in it again to get it right.

 

Erik

 

Erik,

 

Is there a limit to how much a Sonartec can be bent? Also, one thing to note is that Callaway clubs don't have hosels for their woods to be bent...

Sonartec is so good about making the widest variety of lofts, there should be no need to bend one very much, even though they are easy to bend. Lie is really the only thing, and the extreme there would be three or four degrees. Very, very unlikely that a bend of two to four degrees will break anything...

[Gxgolfer]

From a TM Van source:

 

90% of the driver heads are bent to fit each player, it’s become part of the fine tune fitting for each player. An extreme example of a bend is John Daly’s heads start at 10 degrees and can be bent to 8 degrees, opening the face 2 degrees so that he can’t miss it left.

[Choppy_McDivot]

First off my apologies for my original tone. very unprofessional of me and I did not mean to come across like that

 

I have not been on in a few days so I will try and respond to each and every question 1 by 1

 

 

In many of htese cases the only thing that separates the "tour issue" driver heads to the "retail heads" is serial number on the hozel that designates the tour ones from the retail ones. No performance differences. At times the tour issued were bent or fitted to fit a specific player.

 

Some people like to play the stuff the guys on tour play. Different strokes for different folks. Very little difference.

 

 

You've got to be kidding me right?

 

Thats the most unprofessional statement Ive ever heard. I'm sure all the guys on tour are playing the spinny hook monsters they give us at edwin watts

 

 

Yoo Choppy, be nice. It is obvious where you stand here. Let us have our own opinions and the member can form his. I am glad that you have found such vast differences between your Taylor Made TP heads and the B-T heads. Since I to have had and have many of both of these heads please tell me the difference that effect performace other than the face angle? Hot melt might make the sound more muted but it isnt going to change the ball flight. What has you convinced tp vs b-t tp???

 

 

I know you would like to believe that the tp heads are the same as the b-t tour heads, but you have to remember who is buying those clubs. most of the time its people that have no business buying them in the first place If tm were to release a true tour issued driver with an optimized cg for low spin and hihg launch, it would be a retail nightmare and your average 'chop' (cuse the pun :smilie_tm: ) would hit it all over the map. yes, they are the same shell, and even look the same, cept for the serial #. The reason they sound and feel different is because the cg location is DIFFERENT. anyone who has played around with the weights of an r7 series of driver will know that when you change the weights the sound and the feel of the driver changes with it. exactly why the tp and the tour issued b-t drivers sound/feel different. the cg locations are different, and they are different clubs, period.

 

mizzy irons and ping irons are the same, yes, but you can't put that statement over all clubs especially woods

 

TM TP... Hit a TP and one with that B-T serial number (the tour one) side by side and tell me they are the same.

 

you said it yourself " you can't put that statement over all clubs".. well it goes the other way as well.. Remember we are NOT talking about the protos..With all things being EQUAL you would be hard pressed to tell a TP from a B_TXXX head. You are the one with a blanket statement saying that all "tour" is better.

 

Dont get me wrong I love Tour Equipment and pretty much play it exclusively, but I dont buy into the superior Ti and all the other jibberish that you often hear.

 

plz read above for my explanation

 

 

...

Hit a TP and one with that B-T serial number (the tour one) side by side and tell me they are the same.

I have played with a several Taylor Made tour drivers, as well as 4 or 5 of their retail TP drivers. The tour drivers were bent open, and internally weighted. For me, that made them better. Beyond that, I really don't know what made them different or better from other TP heads. (I should clarify; one of them was an R540XD Tour that never had a retail counterpart.)

But if you look at the USGA conforming driver head website, there is only one kind of clubhead listed under each "TP" model, and in fact they are given the name "Tour" in most cases. My point is that at least in the eyes of the USGA, Taylor Made's "tour-issued TP" and "retail TP" clubheads are all the same thing for their testing purposes. I guess that I would ask you, Choppy, other than careful measurement, bending, weighting and similar treatments, and the application of a "T-----" serial number, what is the difference between a Taylor Made tour-issued driver and a retail TP club?

Mind you, those are some significant differences: bending, internal weighting, accurate measurements... all that stuff, if done right and then reliably reported to you and supplied by a reputable dealer in tour-issued clubs, could be well worth a good bit of extra money. All those services cost money if you were to try to have a regular retail head treated that way, and there is almost nobody who does that kind of work.

 

I just think the tour versus retail question is a good question, and the answers can vary greatly depending on what club you're talking about. There is no single answer to the "tour versus retail question." In the end, it is mostly about what your needs as a player are, and what works for you. There is no one "best."

 

you guys use the USGA conforming list as an list of true of tour clubs, but fact of the matter is the usga could care less as long as the clubs meet the cor restriction. As long as they look the same, they do not test varying CG locations of drivers. all that matters is the face is not over the legal limit. since the difference in tp and tour b-t is only cg location and spec, they don't care whether it has a retail tp serial or a b-t on it. all that matters it the club that looks the same passes spec

 

you even said it yourself...internal weighting is different. i'm sorry but no reputable dealer can change the internal weighting of a golf club, not even bsg unless they put a TON of rat glue in the head, which would make it not only incredible heavy but dull feeling as well. ruining it!

 

We should really do a test about this and stop arguing. I would personally buy a r580 xd 10.5* tour issue and the same exact retail head put the same shaft in both and put them on an iron byron use the same ball, Taylormade tp red, same exact tee heights put it on a simulator- To eliminate any variables such as wind. Now if i only had an iron byron....

 

Oh my yawn! :)

 

It has been established that there are a few tour drivers that don't make it past the proto stage, and the 580xd tp is one of them. If you want to stop the arguing (which I don't think is your real intent), pony up for a pair of drivers that are listed as being the same on the USGA's conforming list--only difference being a serial number. The R7 425TP is a good candidate, and given the same headweight, face angle, and shaft I'd be willing to bet the results wouldn't justify spending an extra $20, let alone the hundreds some people make a living on. Now if I only had a website that didn't collect $100 for a chance to win some drivers that were donated for testing. Oh wait, I do. :smilie_cally:

 

beruo

 

(Truth be told, my sarcasm is based in jealousy: selling 100 raffle tickets to 100+ people for some prizes that were 100% donated is an AWESOME way to make $10,000! What are the odds that they "winners" get to pay for shipping too. :cheesy: )

 

 

I think that test was great. i'm sure all their tested costed an arm and a leg, so the money was probably justified. plus for a really good chance to win a free club i thought it was worth it and when the results come out, it will have been a good investment to read the data. i joined the raffle myself! hope I win!

[Johnny]

Rico.. it was $1400 for a set of $750 dollar special order cast adams... but hey you cant even special order them anymore... someone made a phonecall and cried. :cheesy:

[Gxgolfer]

I will send Choppy's statements to TM and get an answer from the Tour Department. Of course, no matter what the answer comes back, I'm sure one side won't believe it but, its the "official" word.

[Gxgolfer]

This is the Official TM words from Jason Woodsmansee:

 

Our TP product is exactly the same as tour product. Not similar to, not almost like, but exactly the same. The same heads that go to our tour department are the same heads that make it to retail. Obviously, they can get bent or have other fine tuning done once they get on the van, but they are exactly the same heads to start with.

 

We say that TP product is for tour pros and people who swing like tour pros. So, he is at least correct when he says that they are not for the average "chop."

 

There is no ambiguity about this -- it is a fact. Feel free to quote me on it.

 

Jason

[drpino]

thanks for that info Gxgolfer.

[Ultimate]

I know, from other discussions in this vein, that the true defenders of "Tour is different" will reply to Jason Woodmansee's comments by saying, "What did you expect TM to say? They will never admit that their TP line is something less than 'Tour' quality..."

 

What I say, yet again, is that the "Tour" services that TM admits to (bending, hot melt-weighting, etc.) are worth something, indeed worth quite a lot since practically no one except the tour van and bsg does it, and to get it done to your specs and needs is all the difference. So, since others in this thread have mentioned bsg, I'd say that that operation is a real good one, and probably ought to be the first place to look if you want a tour club.

 

As for Choppy Mcdivot's observations, I think I respectfully disagree that the USGA is casual about the Conforming Head List. And, if Taylor Made's 'Tour-TP' heads are really different from the 'Retail-TP' heads in terms of internal weighting, I'd ask how is that done if not by hot melt or other similar stuff?

 

This is such a limited debate in so many ways. So much of the Taylor Made tour stuff is obviously, totally different from what is available at retail. Different in ways that you can take one look at it and it is different -- different model markings, different shapes, etc. Same with other manufacturers, too. So many of them make retail lines that are compromised in order to help the average guy who has trouble getting the ball up in the air and who has trouble with a slice.

 

This whole argument is almost limited to those very few clubs in which 'Tour' models are indistinguishable from 'Retail' counterparts like the Taylor Made TP lines. Even then, there are lots of easily recognized models that are tour only.

 

The point will always be: get what will work best for you. Tour stuff, being generally either designed or else modified for great players, might be real good for other good players with similar swings. But it might not be good for your game or you. There is no magic "tour is better" design feature. But there are many reasons why regular retail equipment might also not be good for, by example, a good player who hits a very high ball and who fights a hook.

 

In the end, for me, it is all about a club's measurements and characteristics, and not about who used to own it.

[Gxgolfer]

 

What I say, yet again, is that the "Tour" services that TM admits to (bending, hot melt-weighting, etc.) are worth something, indeed worth quite a lot since practically no one except the tour van and bsg does it, and to get it done to your specs and needs is all the difference. So, since others in this thread have mentioned bsg, I'd say that that operation is a real good one, and probably ought to be the first place to look if you want a tour club.

 

 

The only comment that I would add to this is that BSG service is not that unique. You can order these heads from "approved" TM tour suppliers like Broken Niblick, etc. with the faces already bent. Joe Kwok, Chip Usher, Dana Upshaw, Custom Golf Connecticut, etc., are all very experienced clubmakers who have been doing the other type of clubwork for years for club pros on many different levels.

 

Again, for future responses, please keep the merit of BSG services out of this thread as it will not stay and is not part of this discussion.

[Ultimate]

My comments were really not intended to bash or to promote any other company or website. I hope this thread stays on track, for the detailed discussion of the differences between Taylor Made's tour-TP and retail-TP models.

In the general sense, it is true that lots of clubmakers do fine work bending clubheads, including steel fairway woods. Almost no one that I am aware of will do bending of 400+cc titanium drivers, however. Irrespective of who does it, that part of the story is relevant for anyone who is considering having it done.

Any seller of Taylor Made tour driver heads who can reliably say, "This head has measured at such-and-such true loft, and .5 degrees open and one degree flat," is somebody who is providing a great service in my book.

My point, and one that I made above, is that it is probably a little nuts for anybody to pay huge bucks to buy a club sight-unseen off ebay just because it is a "Tour" club, without knowing more. On the other hand, buying a tour club that you know has been weighed and measured to within .5 degrees of loft lie and face angle, and that all of those numbers are the ones that fit you best; that makes perfect sense to me and would be well worth it. Moreover, somebody who can supply all that info, for a head that is already configured (bent, etc.) in that way, eliminates the possibility that a club that you have paid dearly for will then be broken in the bending process. In other words, if there is somebody you can go to to say, "give me a driver that is 2 degrees open," instead of, "here is my driver, bend it 2 degrees open." There is obviously a difference there as to who is bearing the risk of breakage.

So, Gxgolfer, I thank you for your comments and we obviously agree on much...

[Edit, just to add that I have dealt with BSG, and Chip Usher and Custom Golf Connecticut, and with Broken Niblick, and they are all great and performed great for me. I have not personally dealt with Joe K., but I fell certain that his service is just as great, and he probably needs no boost on this site.]