Explain "tour issue"

[Stephen]

Explain "tour issue"

I trust the information on this board, and read it often. One term I often read is "tour issue." Would someone please expalin this term and the differences between "tour issued" equipment and retail equipment? Thank you.

[Gxgolfer]

Tour issued means it came from or was made for the Professional Tours. Mostly prototype equipment that may or may not have been tweaked for a specific player. Most "tour issued" equipment are chosen heads to fit the tolerances of Professional players. Here is an in depth thread about it:

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=282

[steve81]

oh boy. not to start battles or offend you, but please do a search on this. This topic has been discussed time and time again.

[easyyy]

Tour issue means that that equipment was issued to a PGA player for use. Most of the times Equipment companies use the PGA tour as a testing ground for their new designs and prototypes. This equipment usually is identified by unique markings. Some of the equipment looks the same as the retail and some of the tour issued heads are designs that are 100% unique in shape.

 

Using driver heads as an example, these heads all have to be certified by the USGA for COR testing. Once they are approved they can be legally played on the PGA and R&A. So we can see every head that the OEM has released to tour only and to tour/retail. In many of htese cases the only thing that separates the "tour issue" driver heads to the "retail heads" is serial number on the hozel that designates the tour ones from the retail ones. No performance differences. At times the tour issued were bent or fitted to fit a specific player.

 

Some people like to play the stuff the guys on tour play. Different strokes for different folks. Very little difference.

 

Here is a link that will talk more ont he issue...

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=282

[Choppy_McDivot]

In many of htese cases the only thing that separates the "tour issue" driver heads to the "retail heads" is serial number on the hozel that designates the tour ones from the retail ones. No performance differences. At times the tour issued were bent or fitted to fit a specific player.

 

Some people like to play the stuff the guys on tour play. Different strokes for different folks. Very little difference.

 

 

You've got to be kidding me right?

 

Thats the most unprofessional statement Ive ever heard. I'm sure all the guys on tour are playing the spinny hook monsters they give us at edwin watts :yahoo:

[Stephen]

Sorry about the topic. In the future, I'll read previous threads to avoid posting montonous and redundant topics.

[Gxgolfer]

In many of htese cases the only thing that separates the "tour issue" driver heads to the "retail heads" is serial number on the hozel that designates the tour ones from the retail ones. No performance differences. At times the tour issued were bent or fitted to fit a specific player.

 

Some people like to play the stuff the guys on tour play. Different strokes for different folks. Very little difference.

 

 

You've got to be kidding me right?

 

Thats the most unprofessional statement Ive ever heard. I'm sure all the guys on tour are playing the spinny hook monsters they give us at edwin watts :yahoo:

 

??? My sarcasm detector didn't go off or were you serious?

 

TaylorMade TPs, Titleist retail, Mizuno irons, Ping, aren't much different. Most are hand picked heads and bent for loft, lie, and preference.

[Choppy_McDivot]

mizzy irons and ping irons are the same, yes, but you can't put that statement over all clubs especially woods

 

TM TP... :yahoo: Hit a TP and one with that B-T serial number (the tour one) side by side and tell me they are the same.

[Gxgolfer]

Retail TPs vs same model number Tour TPs feel the same to me. Have you taken the same heads, retail and tour and had them shafted weighted identically? I'm not talking the "protos" heads that were renamed for retail. I'm saying Dual TPs, 425TPs, 510TPs, R7 TPs and the woods. The limited run protos of course are different but, that's not the majority.

 

Look at the resale value of Tour TM TPs. The true "proto" heads level and keep their values as opposed to the others which go down near their retail counterparts.

 

Also,

 

Easyyy said in many, if not most cases. Not all.

 

 

I would say the wedges are definetly different but that would be mostly a grind or extra layer of coating to make the wedges more durable for Pro use. Its still the same club design. Putters have weight, stamping, and finishes that may be only available via the tour.

[Stephen]

Guys, no sarcasm from me. I didn't mean to post a topic that had been discussed so often.

[easyyy]

In many of htese cases the only thing that separates the "tour issue" driver heads to the "retail heads" is serial number on the hozel that designates the tour ones from the retail ones. No performance differences. At times the tour issued were bent or fitted to fit a specific player.

 

Some people like to play the stuff the guys on tour play. Different strokes for different folks. Very little difference.

 

 

You've got to be kidding me right?

 

Thats the most unprofessional statement Ive ever heard. I'm sure all the guys on tour are playing the spinny hook monsters they give us at edwin watts :yahoo:

 

 

Yoo Choppy, be nice. It is obvious where you stand here. Let us have our own opinions and the member can form his. I am glad that you have found such vast differences between your Taylor Made TP heads and the B-T heads. Since I to have had and have many of both of these heads please tell me the difference that effect performace other than the face angle? Hot melt might make the sound more muted but it isnt going to change the ball flight. What has you convinced tp vs b-t tp???

[Johnny]

mizzy irons and ping irons are the same, yes, but you can't put that statement over all clubs especially woods

 

TM TP... :yahoo: Hit a TP and one with that B-T serial number (the tour one) side by side and tell me they are the same.

 

you said it yourself " you can't put that statement over all clubs".. well it goes the other way as well.. Remember we are NOT talking about the protos..With all things being EQUAL you would be hard pressed to tell a TP from a B_TXXX head. You are the one with a blanket statement saying that all "tour" is better.

 

Dont get me wrong I love Tour Equipment and pretty much play it exclusively, but I dont buy into the superior Ti and all the other jibberish that you often hear.

[gibbyfan]

Some "tour issue" materials are specific designs that may or may not make it into the retail lines. I would look at the first page of this site and notice the different Titleist FW. Those are tour issue. Other sites say things are tour issue, but they are not rather special oreder like the Matrix Altus.

[Gozz]

Boy's, please step away from the can of worms and hand me the opener.

[easyyy]

Boy's, please step away from the can of worms and hand me the opener.

 

 

Lets all get it on. :yahoo:

 

[gearhead]

Tour issue means that that equipment was issued to a PGA player for use. Most of the times Equipment companies use the PGA tour as a testing ground for their new designs and prototypes. This equipment usually is identified by unique markings. Some of the equipment looks the same as the retail and some of the tour issued heads are designs that are 100% unique in shape.

 

Using driver heads as an example, these heads all have to be certified by the USGA for COR testing. Once they are approved they can be legally played on the PGA and R&A. So we can see every head that the OEM has released to tour only and to tour/retail. In many of htese cases the only thing that separates the "tour issue" driver heads to the "retail heads" is serial number on the hozel that designates the tour ones from the retail ones. No performance differences. At times the tour issued were bent or fitted to fit a specific player.

 

Some people like to play the stuff the guys on tour play. Different strokes for different folks. Very little difference.

 

Here is a link that will talk more ont he issue...

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=282

 

 

Want to thank you for your honesty easyyy. Golfwrx.com continues to amaze me. Easyyy is currently selling 2 tour issued heads in the classifieds and still insinuates that there is little difference between the tour and the TP line. Class act here at golfwrx. Thank you.

 

In many of htese cases the only thing that separates the "tour issue" driver heads to the "retail heads" is serial number on the hozel that designates the tour ones from the retail ones. No performance differences. At times the tour issued were bent or fitted to fit a specific player.

 

Some people like to play the stuff the guys on tour play. Different strokes for different folks. Very little difference.

 

 

You've got to be kidding me right?

 

Thats the most unprofessional statement Ive ever heard. I'm sure all the guys on tour are playing the spinny hook monsters they give us at edwin watts :yahoo:

 

It is to bad that your approach is so harsh. He didnt deserve that. :yahoo:

[Johnny]

We speak the truth at GOLFWRX.. I have the same opinion as easyyy and I too sell "tour" equipment all the time. I'm just one of those people that want it, but I dont say it's always better.

[sandy]

In many of htese cases the only thing that separates the "tour issue" driver heads to the "retail heads" is serial number on the hozel that designates the tour ones from the retail ones. No performance differences. At times the tour issued were bent or fitted to fit a specific player.

 

Some people like to play the stuff the guys on tour play. Different strokes for different folks. Very little difference.

 

 

You've got to be kidding me right?

 

Thats the most unprofessional statement Ive ever heard. I'm sure all the guys on tour are playing the spinny hook monsters they give us at edwin watts :yahoo:

 

Boy have we got a site for you to frequent, they can even sell you the brooklyn bridge (tour version of course) and it is made out of material that most bridges aren't.

[Gxgolfer]

Whether retail or tour, people buy things to try. No one here is saying that every new driver or shaft will add 5-10 yards no matter your skill level. What works for someone doesn't necessarily work for others. Just because its new, doesn't make it better. Everyone has different swings and preferences. Watches, cars, golf clubs. Discretionary income is discretionary.

[Ultimate]

...

Hit a TP and one with that B-T serial number (the tour one) side by side and tell me they are the same.

I have played with a several Taylor Made tour drivers, as well as 4 or 5 of their retail TP drivers. The tour drivers were bent open, and internally weighted. For me, that made them better. Beyond that, I really don't know what made them different or better from other TP heads. (I should clarify; one of them was an R540XD Tour that never had a retail counterpart.)

But if you look at the USGA conforming driver head website, there is only one kind of clubhead listed under each "TP" model, and in fact they are given the name "Tour" in most cases. My point is that at least in the eyes of the USGA, Taylor Made's "tour-issued TP" and "retail TP" clubheads are all the same thing for their testing purposes. I guess that I would ask you, Choppy, other than careful measurement, bending, weighting and similar treatments, and the application of a "T-----" serial number, what is the difference between a Taylor Made tour-issued driver and a retail TP club?

Mind you, those are some significant differences: bending, internal weighting, accurate measurements... all that stuff, if done right and then reliably reported to you and supplied by a reputable dealer in tour-issued clubs, could be well worth a good bit of extra money. All those services cost money if you were to try to have a regular retail head treated that way, and there is almost nobody who does that kind of work.

 

I just think the tour versus retail question is a good question, and the answers can vary greatly depending on what club you're talking about. There is no single answer to the "tour versus retail question." In the end, it is mostly about what your needs as a player are, and what works for you. There is no one "best."

[Johnny]

Johnny just out of interest, im new to tour equipment so be gentle, if its not always better why buy it? surely saving the extra money and putting it towards other things like lessons for example would be more advantageous? ive hit a tour club and a retail club before, both the same makeup with no weighting inside to deaden the sound and have found a difference between the two. But did they square the club up for me at impact for me or give me a in to square to in club path, nuh uh

 

The question to ask yourself is "is it better for you"

[JHR]

I have mostly " Tour" clubs.

 

There seems to be little or no difference in the Tour irons that i have.

 

I notice the greatest differences in the Drivers, Fairway Clubs and Wedges, and i can honestly say in those clubs there is a noticeable difference in performance.

 

I agree with Easyyy and Johnny, it is just a matter of preference, i like Tour issue clubs.

 

But I can assure you of one thing, buy a Tour Vokey Raw Spin Milled and tell me there is no difference in performance.

[bobcat]

I have a few observations and perhaps a few revelations to share based on experience with my own Tour and Retail R500 Series inventory. Let me say up front that I am NOT a fan of TM's Movable Weight Technology or MWT Drivers. I much prefer the older R500 Series models as do so many others..

 

I have acquired quite a collection of R500 Series Retail, TP ,and Tour-only heads including multiple lofts of the R500 (Tour), R510 (Retail) R510-TP (Tour), R510-TP (Retail), R540XD-TP (Tour) and R580XD-TP (Tour). I also have the matching Tour V-Steels, a complete set of Retail V-Steels, a set of Tour-only Rescue-Mids (for comparison with a set of Rescue-Mid TP's). All the TP and Tour issued clubs above feature .335 bores and were acquired brand new with NO SPECIAL TOUR ALTERATIONS. The non-TP Retail models are completely standard TM Retail heads with the normal .350 bore used in non-TP TaylorMade Retail woods. I have upgraded the shafts on all these clubs which allows me to do good comparisons.!

 

First and foremost, let me say that NOTHING THAT REALLY STANDS OUT in the Tour-only versions that would make me say those are really any better than Retail TP or some of the other TM Retail models. I certainly can't say they perform better or feel better. Given the same premium shaft specs, the performance and feel is actually quite comparable. (I definitely don't believe there is any kind of "super" titanium used in the Tour-only modles that gives them an edge over the Retail TP line or even the standard Retail TM drivers). The biggest if any advantage to Tour models is their tendency to have square faces and a more neutral weighting bias than most Retail offerings. (Unless of course a Tour model has been altered to fit a Tour Player). However, you CAN find certainl find a square face and neutral weight bias in a retail driver, the TP models, and even the original (non-TP) R510 are good expamples..

 

Seems quite a few of the USED Tour-issued clubs out there have received the "hot melt" treatment somewhere along the line. Hot melt is simply an alteration or customization of the club and NOT necessarily even a very desirable thing. None of my own Tour heads have been hot melted, I know because I acquired all of mine brand new, still in the plastic.

 

The facts are that additional weight added by hot melting can indeed change the feel of a club, but you may a price for the additional weight added to the head. If like me, you prefer a mid-weight (75 grams+) with a shaft length of 45" or more, then added head weight is the last thing you need. For those that do like hot melt, keep in mind Retail drivers can be "hot melted" just as easily...the treatment is certainly not limited to Tour-issued heads. The key point here is that good old "Hot Melt" is likely responsible for much of the raving about Tour heads having a heavier, and more solid feel, compared to Retail. Truth is that a heavier hot melted head may force you to play a 44" (or shorter) shaft just to keep the swingweight reasonable and by going to a shorter shaft, you generally reduce your distance off the tee.

 

Of course, TM does not always choose to make a retail "TP" model corresponding to every Tour-issued model, so for purposes of comparison it is probbably best to focus on the R510-TP vs the R510-TP Tour and the Rescue-Mid TP's vs the Tour issued Resuce Mids. Other TM drivers like the R500 Tour, the R540XD-TP Tour and R580XD-TP Tour are Tour-unique and have no actual Retail counterpart for a direct comparison. Much the same can be said about the Tour V-Steel 3-wood with its .335 hosel vs its Retail counterpart, but more on that later.

 

The main point to this post is that the R510-TP and the Rescue-Mid TP's are every bit as good as their Tour-issue counterparts. I really cannot tell ANY difference whatsoever when the identical shaft specs are used in both models. For those that disagree, I challenge you to test as I did using identical shaft specs for both versions.

 

I have seen some unusual thins differences in some other models, however. My Tour issued .335 V-Steel 3-wood is a good example. The Tour version has a lower trajectory, but "cheats" with the loft as it is a full degree less loft than stated, (i.e. 14* instead of 15*). be That appears to true ALL the V-Steel Tour versions. However, the .350 Retail V-Steel T/S cheats a bit as well. It is supposedly 13*, but everyone I measure seems to be 14*). I found the Retail T/S easily the equal of the Tour V-Steel 3-wood while the Retail V-Steel 3-wood had a higher trajectory than its Tour conterpart, but this could be the loft since the Retail models tend to meaure higher than the stated loft, while Tour measures lower. The key here is to test all with the same shaft,and in this case I used a 43" 757 Speeder in all models. The head sizes are the same when you compare the Tour V-Steel 3-wood and the Retail V-Steel 3-wood, but the 13* Retail T/S model is a smaller head size. Also note that while all the early Tour V-Steels have the paint break, (supposedly for easier hosel bending), the newer Tour V-Steel Tour models (like mine) do not have that. In fact, mine is cosmetically identical to the Retail versions, it just has a 335 bore rather than the .350 like the Retail models..

 

Last but not least, I found more little revelation worth noting: I have been a big fan of the R500 Tour Driver because I believe it be the most solid and workable head TM has yet produced. If you are looking for maximum control, it has much to offer over the larger heads and does not give much away in terms of distance either. Recently however, I decided to compare it to a.350 bore Retail (non-TP) R510 which is very close in head size. Surprisingly the performance compared to the R500 Tour was much better than I would have thought before doing the test. With a 757 shaft in a Retail R510, a R500 Tour player would not be disappointed with the R510. I still prefer the slightly smaller (325cc) R500 Tour because it is a just a bit heavier and more solid feeling, (not due to hot melt mind you), and it seems to offer somewhat better workability compared to the slighly larger (330cc) R510. Still the latter is certainly no slouch in either category. Both these drivers look identical to each other at address because the head sizes are so close. From the front, the Retail model has a slighly more rounded shape at the bottom, (where the face meets the sole). The R500 Tour model is more square at the bottom, shaped identically to the 390cc R510-TP, just smaller in size. The original R510 actually has a VERY square face for a non-TP Retail driver but of course one must remember it was considered the "Player's model" of the original (3) R500 Series models, (R510/R540/R580). For the record, I don't consider the the original Retail R540/R580 worthy of discussion as a Player's driver due to their closed faces. Those are really for mid-to-high handicappers.

 

Sorry for the long post, but since I have done some rather extensive comparisons between Tour and Retail models within the 500 series family, I thought these comparisons might be of interest here.

[Geo]

We should really do a test about this and stop arguing. I would personally buy a r580 xd 10.5* tour issue and the same exact retail head put the same shaft in both and put them on an iron byron use the same ball, Taylormade tp red, same exact tee heights put it on a simulator- To eliminate any variables such as wind. Now if i only had an iron byron....

 

Oh my yawn! :yahoo:

 

It has been established that there are a few tour drivers that don't make it past the proto stage, and the 580xd tp is one of them. If you want to stop the arguing (which I don't think is your real intent), pony up for a pair of drivers that are listed as being the same on the USGA's conforming list--only difference being a serial number. The R7 425TP is a good candidate, and given the same headweight, face angle, and shaft I'd be willing to bet the results wouldn't justify spending an extra $20, let alone the hundreds some people make a living on. Now if I only had a website that didn't collect $100 for a chance to win some drivers that were donated for testing. Oh wait, I do. :bad:

 

beruo

 

(Truth be told, my sarcasm is based in jealousy: selling 100 raffle tickets to 100+ people for some prizes that were 100% donated is an AWESOME way to make $10,000! What are the odds that they "winners" get to pay for shipping too. :yahoo: )

[kenadams31]

Man, you're bitter... :yahoo:

 

I thought this site was all about the truth and not slamming other "sites"...good think you are just a member, oh wait, you're a Marshall..nice example to set :yahoo:

[Gxgolfer]

What in this thread is not truthful and which site(s) are you referring to that is being slammed. I don't see any one particular site being named?

[kenadams31]

which site(s) are you referring to that is being slammed. I don't see any one particular site being named?

 

 

 

Oh my yawn! :bad:

 

Now if I only had a website that didn't collect $100 for a chance to win some drivers that were donated for testing. Oh wait, I do. :bad:

 

beruo

 

(Truth be told, my sarcasm is based in jealousy: selling 100 raffle tickets to 100+ people for some prizes that were 100% donated is an AWESOME way to make $10,000! What are the odds that they "winners" get to pay for shipping too. :yahoo: )

 

Come on, do you take all of us for idiots.... :yahoo: :bad:

[Gxgolfer]

Seems that's a rhetorical question based on where your original assumptions are coming from. Debate the merits of the topics please. There are almost 30 posts here and yours is the first that has not been relative to the topic. If you find something "offensive", please use the Violation button.

[Ultimate]

We should really do a test about this and stop arguing. I would personally buy a r580 xd 10.5* tour issue and the same exact retail head put the same shaft in both and put them on an iron byron use the same ball, Taylormade tp red, same exact tee heights put it on a simulator- To eliminate any variables such as wind. Now if i only had an iron byron....

 

Oh my yawn! :yahoo:

 

It has been established that there are a few tour drivers that don't make it past the proto stage, and the 580xd tp is one of them. If you want to stop the arguing (which I don't think is your real intent), pony up for a pair of drivers that are listed as being the same on the USGA's conforming list--only difference being a serial number. The R7 425TP is a good candidate, and given the same headweight, face angle, and shaft I'd be willing to bet the results wouldn't justify spending an extra $20, let alone the hundreds some people make a living on. Now if I only had a website that didn't collect $100 for a chance to win some drivers that were donated for testing. Oh wait, I do. :bad:

 

beruo

 

(Truth be told, my sarcasm is based in jealousy: selling 100 raffle tickets to 100+ people for some prizes that were 100% donated is an AWESOME way to make $10,000! What are the odds that they "winners" get to pay for shipping too. :yahoo: )

Here's the thing; if you want to argue that a retail R7 TP and a tour-issued R7 TP are the same design, the same materials and the same construction, you'd have an excellent argument based on nothing more than the USGA website.

But if you offered me a "tour-issued" R7, and you could tell me the head weight in grams, the actual measured loft, and if you could bend the face open so that it is a measured and accurate 1.5 degrees open, and 2 degrees flat, would I pay more for that club? If it was the right club for me, the answer is yes I would.

Who on this site can measure actual lofts and face angles to within a degree? Who can bend 460 cc drivers open, or flat, or upright?

What is the cost for those services, if there is anybody who will do it? What is the risk to a paid-for clubhead in attempting those alterations?

I know that I am not interested in any "magic dust" theories about tour versus retail. But I am interested in measurable differences.

I don't agree with everything over at that other website. But this thread seems to contain a very bad rap on a source for very good -- unique, really -- tour club services.

Tour clubs might be a tremendous waste if you are buying something just because of who owned it previously. Tour clubs can also be a waste if you don't really know what you are getting. Tour clubs can also be a waste if if you know what it is you are getting but it is the wrong club for you.

But if you have the chance to get something that is better for you and is not available at retail (and let's face it, OEM club makers are regularly 'cheating' the specs on their clubs to make them easier to hit by golfers who represent golf's lowest common denominator; players who slice and who have trouble getting the ball up in the air), why not pay more for a club that was built or adjusted for another good player or even a tour player? If that is the only way to get what you need?

[Gxgolfer]

These posts hardly mention the other site, "BSG". What you are saying is "exactly" what everyone else on this thread is saying. Joe Kwok does every one of those services except bending heads. Why does he not bend heads? Because of not having the right equipment and not wanting the liability. TM says its takes them 10-15 heads sometimes to get one right. You are exactly right about sourcing the right tour head and having it tweaked to your specs shaft wise. The question to that end is what is the appropriate upcharge for that service and who do you want to have it done if, not done by the Tour Van? If I wanted a head bent a certain way, I would definetly get it that way from the beginning. Most of the top level clubmakers won't take the risk and if it breaks, they certainly won't take the liability.

 

 

Its interesting to note that alot of good players I've talked to will not even care about the LM numbers, actual/stated loft, etc. It just confuses them. They just want a club that produces the ball flight, feel, and control they want.