The purpose of the Downloop...

[6enh09an]

Isn't the downloop a natural result of loading the left wrist, which by the way started way before the top?

[TeeAce]

[quote name='6enh09an' timestamp='1303555326' post='3178728']
Isn't the downloop a natural result of loading the left wrist, which by the way started way before the top?
[/quote]

I think it's natural for all good players. They would not be good players without that. But at least it's not natural for beginners or average players who I have measured. It's totally against their nature and instincts.

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1303546860' post='3178684']
[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1303543930' post='3178646']
So is this "downloop" a result of passive hands throughout the swing, or is the early travel of the sweetspot a desired ingredient to good ballstriking? Or all of the above?
[/quote]

I can't see that could be result of passive hands. Players who are use to do it can feel like that, but it's learned someway.

For me it's active motion, where player rotates the arm triangle open by dropping right elbow well under the left. And it's the move that produces terrible push slice for average golfers, because they don't usually have good pivot enough to square the club face. So it's easier to come OTT and close the club face by arms rotation through impact than learn this whole action with all those body movements.
[/quote]

Teeace, thanks for answering my question. Im at a point in my golf swing where I do a few things good but theres still something missing and this thread has really gotten my attention. Watching Alvaro in the other post it really looks like the left arm has momentum up and around while the right arm starts down. It seems like the arms actually oppose each other during transition and the angle is just carried down to impact. The right wrist definitely reaches some sort of limitation though

[TeeAce]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1303572797' post='3179137']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1303546860' post='3178684']
[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1303543930' post='3178646']
So is this "downloop" a result of passive hands throughout the swing, or is the early travel of the sweetspot a desired ingredient to good ballstriking? Or all of the above?
[/quote]

I can't see that could be result of passive hands. Players who are use to do it can feel like that, but it's learned someway.

For me it's active motion, where player rotates the arm triangle open by dropping right elbow well under the left. And it's the move that produces terrible push slice for average golfers, because they don't usually have good pivot enough to square the club face. So it's easier to come OTT and close the club face by arms rotation through impact than learn this whole action with all those body movements.
[/quote]

Teeace, thanks for answering my question. Im at a point in my golf swing where I do a few things good but theres still something missing and this thread has really gotten my attention. Watching Alvaro in the other post it really looks like the left arm has momentum up and around while the right arm starts down. It seems like the arms actually oppose each other during transition and the angle is just carried down to impact. The right wrist definitely reaches some sort of limitation though
[/quote]

Absolutely. And if You watch Hogan or Snead as good examples, they have kept that relation of elbows through the impact. Of course it looks different when body is in different position, but the action in arms has been kept all the way down. So they are rotating the face open during the downswing, never close it.

[dap]

I think this is even better. That's THE MOVE!

TeeAce,here is an even better right elbow tuck.I have not seen anyone who can keep the right elbow tucked longer than this player including Hogan.However,I am not saying this player is a better ball striker than Hogan or Quiros.Just pointing out this particular move.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TeeAce]

Vaughn Taylor, is it? Former Augusta State University player?

Great pictures. I didn't know he's so good with that move. Thank You and if You got some pictures near impact, I'd like to se those also. Can he keep it?

[MK7Golf21]

[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1303422141' post='3174731']
@DTS. actually I didnt even get into the way off pivot. Ive been watching and writing thru my iPhone so maybe missed something, but i thought he said he used the same "technique" as Hogan. Well then let's have at it.
[/quote]

is this the same guy who told me stephen ames shifts off the ball and then crosses over, yea you have no room to talk about anyones swing after that nonsense

[dap]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1303575604' post='3179245']
Vaughn Taylor, is it? Former Augusta State University player?

Great pictures. I didn't know he's so good with that move. Thank You and if You got some pictures near impact, I'd like to se those also. Can he keep it?
[/quote]
Yes,Vaughn Taylor at the 2007 Masters.

[attachment=770718:vtaylorDTL07masters.mov_snapshot_00.01_2011.04.24_02.25.15.jpg]

[attachment=770719:vtaylorDTL07masters.mov_snapshot_00.01_2011.04.24_02.25.24.jpg]

[attachment=770720:vtaylorDTL07masters.mov_snapshot_00.01_2011.04.24_02.25.36.jpg]

[attachment=770721:vtaylorDTL07masters.mov_snapshot_00.01_2011.04.24_02.25.48.jpg]

[dap]

TeeAce,notice the arm triangle move doesn't always result in a laid off shaft.In most cases it does but not always as in Taylor.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1303576259' post='3179264']
TeeAce,notice the arm triangle move doesn't always result in a laid off shaft.In most cases it does but not always as in Taylor.
[/quote]

Maybe we understand differently that laid off, but what I mean can be easily seen in the first two pictures of Your first set. Look at the club head at first and then at second. And even the third. It has been moving all the time further from the ball line. And it hasn't actually come much closer to the camera at that time, only moved more behind of the player.

That's why I have said that plane is a myth. There is much more things happening in transition than keeping everything moving on certain plane.

[JD3]

@redjeep. He used to, but like I said working with foley he got a lot of the s&t pieces. There's credible accounts on this board how foley picked plummers brain right on the practice tee desperate for a clue what to teach Ames.

Btw this is Chris's thread, let's respect that.

[6enh09an]

I think this is even better. That's THE MOVE!

Alvaro right? He strikes it as good as anyone..... But his motion is different , way different to hogan.... You need to look at how the body works

 

8i,

 

I think many would like to see/hear how Alvaro's is different from Hogan. Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with you. But it will be really a lot of help to everyone if we hear the details, especially me! Hehe...

[6enh09an]

So gentlemen, what's the answer to the OP's/Chris' question? What's the purpose (I guess this is obvious), but the more important question, I think, is how's it done?

Here is MHO. It's a natural result of loading the left wrist, which I mainly got from 8i, so 8i kindly critique/correct if it's bad... Do not worry (not that I think you will.. Lol), I'm not sensitive... Lol

Details: well.. I think you start loading the left wrist as soon as you start the bs.. Because of the weak grip (especially weaker right hand), quick tempo, heavy club of Hogan and momentum/inertia of swing/club, this "loading" won't flatten your left wrist and in fact will result to slight cupping at top. It like you tried to load/flatten it, but you fail to do so bec of said factors mentioned. So when you reach the top, you don't stop the loading, you still trying or continuing it.

Now, at top, the swing/club momentum/inertia stops as it has nowhere else to go, and at same time you fire the hips, totally forgetting your arms, shoulders and body. With the loading still there, your left wrist finally loads and flattens (success! Lol), clubhead goes down (downloops), and right elbow goes down in pitch, all at the same time.

But you won't get all this if you're bs motion is wrong.. It's like saying.. I doubt if this will be worth a doggone to the weekend hacker! Lol!

Seriously.. kindly criticize please..

Chris, are you doing the same thing? How you do it? Let's be generous here and help all of us hackers who's got no time of a pro to dug these all out out of the dirt. So that we can enjoy more/most this game we all love?

[dap]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1303577324' post='3179292']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1303576259' post='3179264']
TeeAce,notice the arm triangle move doesn't always result in a laid off shaft.In most cases it does but not always as in Taylor.
[/quote]

Maybe we understand differently that laid off, but what I mean can be easily seen in the first two pictures of Your first set. Look at the club head at first and then at second. And even the third. It has been moving all the time further from the ball line. And it hasn't actually come much closer to the camera at that time, only moved more behind of the player.

That's why I have said that plane is a myth. There is much more things happening in transition than keeping everything moving on certain plane.
[/quote]
I won't argue with you about the clubhead moving further from the target line but 2D video is still useful if you understand parallax and have the experience to adjust for it.

My point about the clubshaft not always being laid off in the transition depends on the position of club at the top.Taylor starts his downswing from a slightly crossed the line position so even his right elbow tuck won't lay the club off excessively.It is very difficult to lay the club off from a crossed the line position but can be done if you're a genius like Bobby Jones.

Hogan was not crossed the line at the top so his right elbow tuck laid the club off slightly.It depends on where your club is at the top.

Taylor does not have as dynamic a pivot as Hogan through impact.His hips and shoulders are not as open at impact.This results in a more underplane approach to the ball and he doesn't move left after impact like Hogan.I can see Taylor missing with blocks to the right or hooks.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1303625669' post='3180872']
[
I won't argue with you about the clubhead moving further from the target line but 2D video is still useful if you understand parallax and have the experience to adjust for it.

My point about the clubshaft not always being laid off in the transition depends on the position of club at the top.Taylor starts his downswing from a slightly crossed the line position so even his right elbow tuck won't lay the club off excessively.It is very difficult to lay the club off from a crossed the line position but can be done if you're a genius like Bobby Jones.

Hogan was not crossed the line at the top so his right elbow tuck laid the club off slightly.It depends on where your club is at the top.

Taylor does not have as dynamic a pivot as Hogan through impact.His hips and shoulders are not as open at impact.This results in a more underplane approach to the ball and he doesn't move left after impact like Hogan.I can see Taylor missing with blocks to the right or hooks.
[/quote]

Sorry I have to say I didn't understand a lot of that.

The topic is about Downloop and I don't actually know how people understand that term. I don't know how different people define plane. But what I van say, is that if it's kind of plane Hogan described in 5L's, nothing moves on it, above it or parallel it at the first half of the downswing. Or maybe something but for sure not the club head, and usually not hands.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1303625669' post='3180872']
[
Taylor does not have as dynamic a pivot as Hogan through impact.[b]His hips and shoulders are not as open at impact[/b].This results in a more underplane approach to the ball and he doesn't move left after impact like Hogan.I can see Taylor missing with blocks to the right or hooks.
[/quote]

So Hogan was delaying club head more than Taylor. There is no other way to be more open at impact IMO. Delayed it more in relation to rotation.... more downloop without leting the ch come closer to the dtl camera.

[dap]

[quote name='6enh09an' timestamp='1303614194' post='3180559']
So gentlemen, what's the answer to the OP's/Chris' question? What's the purpose (I guess this is obvious), but the more important question, I think, is how's it done?

Here is MHO. It's a natural result of loading the left wrist, which I mainly got from 8i, so 8i kindly critique/correct if it's bad... Do not worry (not that I think you will.. Lol), I'm not sensitive... Lol

Details: well.. I think you start loading the left wrist as soon as you start the bs.. Because of the weak grip (especially weaker right hand), quick tempo, heavy club of Hogan and momentum/inertia of swing/club, this "loading" won't flatten your left wrist and in fact will result to slight cupping at top. It like you tried to load/flatten it, but you fail to do so bec of said factors mentioned. So when you reach the top, you don't stop the loading, you still trying or continuing it.

Now, at top, the swing/club momentum/inertia stops as it has nowhere else to go, and at same time you fire the hips, totally forgetting your arms, shoulders and body. With the loading still there, your left wrist finally loads and flattens (success! Lol), clubhead goes down (downloops), and right elbow goes down in pitch, all at the same time.

But you won't get all this if you're bs motion is wrong.. It's like saying.. I doubt if this will be worth a doggone to the weekend hacker! Lol!

Seriously.. kindly criticize please..

Chris, are you doing the same thing? How you do it? Let's be generous here and help all of us hackers who's got no time of a pro to dug these all out out of the dirt. So that we can enjoy more/most this game we all love?
[/quote]
Do you have the downloop in your swing now?If you don't,I doubt you will ever learn the move regardless of what you do.

I personally don't think this move is a requirement to play good golf anyway.All this excessive flatenning and steepening of the club doesn't make much sense to me.

[dap]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1303635711' post='3180935']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1303625669' post='3180872']
[
Taylor does not have as dynamic a pivot as Hogan through impact.[b]His hips and shoulders are not as open at impact[/b].This results in a more underplane approach to the ball and he doesn't move left after impact like Hogan.I can see Taylor missing with blocks to the right or hooks.
[/quote]

So Hogan was delaying club head more than Taylor. There is no other way to be more open at impact IMO. Delayed it more in relation to rotation.... more downloop without leting the ch come closer to the dtl camera.
[/quote]
Yes,I agree Hogan had a more delayed hit relative to pivot rotation which gave him a more open hip and shoulder look at impact.This in essence is a more dynamic downswing pivot.Easy to say,hard to do.

[1lovegolf24]

Chris-golf. Is there any way we can see your grip and what sort of waggle you have, if any. Hogans loop can be seen in his waggle and therefore you can deduct the how and why he performs the loop from viewing his waggle., IMO

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1303652320' post='3181166']
[
I personally don't think this move is a requirement to play good golf anyway.All this excessive flatenning and steepening of the club doesn't make much sense to me.
[/quote]

And still they all do it. Without that move, if You got open position at impact and strong pivot, You will be miles to the left. Face turns too much closed if You don't resist it.

[dap]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1303662690' post='3181465']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1303652320' post='3181166']
[
I personally don't think this move is a requirement to play good golf anyway.All this excessive flatenning and steepening of the club doesn't make much sense to me.
[/quote]

And still they all do it. Without that move, if You got open position at impact and strong pivot, You will be miles to the left. Face turns too much closed if You don't resist it.
[/quote]
I am sorry but I just don't see every pro on tour with a huge Sergio Garcia like downloop.

Everyone here seems to be in love with a huge laid off club at the top followed by a big OTT move to get the shaft back on plane.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1303664078' post='3181514']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1303662690' post='3181465']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1303652320' post='3181166']
[
I personally don't think this move is a requirement to play good golf anyway.All this excessive flatenning and steepening of the club doesn't make much sense to me.
[/quote]

And still they all do it. Without that move, if You got open position at impact and strong pivot, You will be miles to the left. Face turns too much closed if You don't resist it.
[/quote]
I am sorry but I just don't see every pro on tour with a huge Sergio Garcia like downloop.

Everyone here seems to be in love with a huge laid off club at the top followed by a big OTT move to get the shaft back on plane.
[/quote]

Not as big. The biggest one I think is Furyk, not Sergio. But all I have seen with high speed videos are doing that move more or less.

But for sure there is no need for OTT move after that. Only strong pivot and You do it fine. And You can hit it as hard as You can.

[Staffer]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1303664674' post='3181529']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1303664078' post='3181514']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1303662690' post='3181465']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1303652320' post='3181166']
[
I personally don't think this move is a requirement to play good golf anyway.All this excessive flatenning and steepening of the club doesn't make much sense to me.
[/quote]

And still they all do it. Without that move, if You got open position at impact and strong pivot, You will be miles to the left. Face turns too much closed if You don't resist it.
[/quote]
I am sorry but I just don't see every pro on tour with a huge Sergio Garcia like downloop.

Everyone here seems to be in love with a huge laid off club at the top followed by a big OTT move to get the shaft back on plane.
[/quote]

Not as big. The biggest one I think is Furyk, not Sergio. But all I have seen with high speed videos are doing that move more or less.

But for sure there is no need for OTT move after that. Only strong pivot and You do it fine. And You can hit it as hard as You can.
[/quote]


Well, then we know the effect, but what is the cause?

It is possible to create the effect only by manipulating the club with the hands, but that will give you timing issues.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='Staffer' timestamp='1303666591' post='3181588']
[
Well, then we know the effect, but what is the cause?

It is possible to create the effect only by manipulating the club with the hands, but that will give you timing issues.
[/quote]

IMO it's just opposite. It takes all away of timing. If You can keep Your elbows like that and make pure rotation, club face will be square every time if You grip correctly. It doesn't matter how much You keep the ch behind the rotation, it will always come to right position. When You do something lateral, then You need timing.

Sorry it's hard to explain without showing that, but I hope some will see it and find it out by trying it.

[Staffer]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1303666953' post='3181604']
[quote name='Staffer' timestamp='1303666591' post='3181588']
[
Well, then we know the effect, but what is the cause?

It is possible to create the effect only by manipulating the club with the hands, but that will give you timing issues.
[/quote]

IMO it's just opposite. It takes all away of timing. If You can keep Your elbows like that and make pure rotation, club face will be square every time if You grip correctly. It doesn't matter how much You keep the ch behind the rotation, it will always come to right position. When You do something lateral, then You need timing.

Sorry it's hard to explain without showing that, but I hope some will see it and find it out by trying it.
[/quote]


There will be lateral motion.

Sorry, but you have stated that virtually all good players make this move. You have also stated that this move eliminates timing and ensures a square clubhead at impact. Yet all good players are not Hogan.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='Staffer' timestamp='1303670158' post='3181688']
[
There will be lateral motion.

Sorry, but you have stated that virtually all good players make this move. You have also stated that this move eliminates timing and ensures a square clubhead at impact. Yet all good players are not Hogan.
[/quote]

Hogan made that lateral motion before dsw, or before hands and ch started to com down. After that if there was some lateral motion, it was away from the target.

[Staffer]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1303670802' post='3181711']
[quote name='Staffer' timestamp='1303670158' post='3181688']
[
There will be lateral motion.

Sorry, but you have stated that virtually all good players make this move. You have also stated that this move eliminates timing and ensures a square clubhead at impact. Yet all good players are not Hogan.
[/quote]

Hogan made that lateral motion before dsw, or before hands and ch started to com down. After that if there was some lateral motion, it was away from the target.
[/quote]

So that is what separates Hogan from all good players? No lateral movement in the downswing?

I dont think so.

[JD3]

Did Hogan really have this big plane shift thats being taken for granted? Watching this entire series I honestly don't see it, unlike Chris who rolls it and raises the handle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWLLPKiSMRk&feature=related

[TeeAce]

[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1303680333' post='3181968']
Did Hogan really have this big plane shift that Chris is taking for granted? Watching this entire series I honestly don't see it. His hands drop vertically and bring the butt end of the club down, unlike Chris who rolls it and raises the handle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWLLPKiSMRk&feature=related
[/quote]

I think You just pointed out why it hasn't been common in teaching. It's impossible to wee from those 24/25fps videos, or were those even 18fps. Thats why I have thought we have been able to learn more about Hogan from still pictures than videos.

Th high speed cameras has just made it visible and still it will take time that all people start to believe that.

[JD3]

Teeace. Do you have more detailed analysis of Hogan's plane shifts you can share? Addressing to what degree he shifted, what direction (flatter/steeper), how he did it, and how this compares to other pros?

I have a suspicion it's been exaggerated and misunderstood.