Hardy on Leadbetter's two-plane method

[jeffy]

In another thread, the point was made that Ernie Els had changed to a two-plane swing working with Leadbetter. On his forum, Jim Hardy had this to say when asked: "Jim, do you have any thoughts – that you care to share – about WHY and HOW the golfing world got “brain washed” into a multi-decade DOMINANCE of two-plane golf instruction?"

 

Jim's reply:

 

"Yes I do, since it is what eventually got me back into teaching and then the book. David, plus others were teaching the one-plane swing and got the arms and club stuck behind them in the downswing (as I did also until I figured out how not get it stuck). This was happening not only in their student's games but in their own as well. The solution they settled on was to get the arms more out in front of them and when this created problems, they then touted slowing down the body. With out knowing it they had started to "morph" into a two-plane swing (arms in front and timed with the body turn). The real tragedy is that the golfing world bought into it. The arms and club stuck behind you became the curse of the day. As I point out in my book, it is caused by thrusting the arms out in front of you (particularly the right elbow)on the downswing. The farther you thrust the arms out in front the farther the club opens and lays off behind you (stuck). The opposite is what you want. On the downswing, the tighter and lower on your chest the left arm is while the right elbow remains up and behind you the more the club closes and comes out in front. ARMS BACK/CLUB OUT....ARMS OUT/CLUB BACK. That's how they work, so to put the arms farther out in front and still try to swing around the torso was exactly the wrong direction to head in. So when, arms out in front and slow down the body still did not cure the one-planer, David droped the last vestige of the one-plane swing (club around the torso) and incorporated an early wrist set that broke the club up more vertically and not so much around the body. The final result was to leave the arms in front, the body turning in time with the arms and to get an early wrist set that would work the club more upright and not so much around the body....result, a complete transformation to a two-plane swing. I do not mean to criticize David for his work. I have nothing but a world of respect for him What he has done has been through great dedication and effort to help people play better golf. He saw problems with the one-plane swing and set about to fix them. It is just my opinion that in his quest to fix the problems, he did in fact fix the one-plane problems but at the same time moved away from a one-plane swing concept alla Hogan, Snead and Knudsen to the two-plane swing concept.

 

JH"

[dtwainright]

Interesting post. Thanks.

 

--TW

[jeffy]

Interesting post. Thanks.

 

--TW

 

You're welcome. BTW, I just learned today that I was able to get into one of Jim's two-day teaching seminars in Houston later this month. Needless to say, I'm very excited! Let me know if there is anything you'd like me to ask him.

 

Jeff

[dtwainright]

Interesting post. Thanks.

 

--TW

 

You're welcome. BTW, I just learned today that I was able to get into one of Jim's two-day teaching seminars in Houston later this month. Needless to say, I'm very excited! Let me know if there is anything you'd like me to ask him.

 

Jeff

 

Do you currently have a one or two plane swing? I (along with some great help from TaylorMadeFan) have been really working on my one plane swing.

 

I thought that the two-plane swing was the way to go untill I played golf with my boss and it was the WORST round I have ever had. I just felt like I was fighting my natural swing the whole time. After buying his book and looking at the differences a light bulb clicked and said -- I have a natural one plane swing -- now go work on this and that.

 

I can't think of anything to ask, but have a fantastic time! Let me know how it goes!

Regards,

Tyler

[jeffy]

I'm a one-planer now. Two years ago, I played very well (for me), relying on Manuel de la Torre's excellent book "Understanding the Golf Swing". After the season, I thought about going to see him for lessons, but instead looked up Carol Mann, a long-time student of his, as well as an LPGA hall of famer, who wrote the foreward to de la Torre's book.

 

When I met Carol, she right away explained the concept of the one and two-plane swing. This was in March 2005, before Hardy's Golf Digest article had been published, so it was all brand new to me. Along with the basic concepts and the relative pros and cons of the two methods, Carol told me a fascinating story regarding her swing during her playing career.

 

It turns out that Manuel de la Torre is a two-plane teacher so, naturally, Carol was a two-planer for most of her time on tour. However, in 1968, more or less by accident, Carol adopted a more bent over posture and, without knowing it, adopted a more rounded, one-plane style swing. That year she won 10 tournaments; the next season, 1969, she won 8, setting many scoring records along the way. But, by 1970, she had resumed her old erect posture and became two-plane again (as she points out, no one at that time was aware of the significance of being one or two-plane). She never had the same success, sufferered a back injury (related to the two-plane swing, she believes), and quit the tour relatively early to pursue teaching and broadcasting. It wasn't until Jim Hardy explained to her his theory of the two swings that she realized why she had played so well in 1968 and 1969. BTW, Carol and Jim where married for a while, but divorced in 1988. Despite that, they are still very close and I expect she will attend at least one day of the seminar. As you might guess, she is a staunch advocate of the one-plane swing.

 

After hearing that story, I had no choice but declare that I wanted to learn the one-plane swing. It wasn't easy: I was hindered by poor physical shape and inflexibility from sitting in an office for 30 years, plus I had no local instruction (I live in NYC, Carol is in Houston) until I met John Hobbins (at Carol's recommendation) this past April. Sadly, family and a new job cut into my golf this season, so scoring progress has been slow. Still, my average score has improved about five shots during this period (from 89 to 84), and my index went from 10.5 to 8.8 during this season, without much help from my chipping, pitching and sand play. Accordingly, the day after the seminar, I'm going to spend a half-day with Carol on the short-game.

 

Apologies for the long-winded reply, but I think it is kind of an interesting story. Anyway, I'll let you know what "secrets the pros don't tell you" are revealed at the seminar!

 

Jeff

[Ducky]

Jeffy,

 

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I find it strange that you advocate Jim Hardy's fundamentals (and discredit other teachers such as Tom Bertrand) so passionately, yet you are only shooting in the mid eighties yourself. Of course, I do not wish to draw the conclusion that players who do not score well have no knowledge on the golf swing, as this is not the case.

 

The problem I see (at least for myself), is that the transition from a two plane swing to a one plane swing is quite significant in regards to time, money, and (most importantly) performance. All the 'success' stories I have heard so far have not convinced me to adopt the one plane swing.

 

Is there anyone currently on tour who implements pure one plane swing fundamentals who is consistantly successful on tour? The only player who comes to mind is Tiger Woods, and I would not even consider him a pure one plane swing.

[taylormadefan]

Ducky,

 

The only reason why anyone should adopt any swing theory is because they feel it will make them a better golfer. Making a complete 180* change in your swing is difficult to do, no matter how good an athelete or golfer you are.

 

I think one reason why many of the Hardy proponents are so passionate about it is becuase when you execute the swing correctly, you will feel impact that is second to none.

 

As far as Tour pros who have adopted Mr. Hardy's theories, you need only look to the ressurection of Olin Brown and Peter Jacobsen's careers as well as the continued success of Tom Pernice Jr. and Scott McCarron for players who have successfully implemented the one plane swing. Just about all these players were at the ends of their careers until meeting Mr. Hardy and within a few months were playing the best golf of their lives. There's something to be said for that.

 

However, in the end, who cares about tour pros? Pick a swing theory that you feel will help you achieve the best results and learn as much as you can about it and implement it on the course. Forget about what anyone else thinks. . .

[jeffy]

Jeffy,

 

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I find it strange that you advocate Jim Hardy's fundamentals (and discredit other teachers such as Tom Bertrand) so passionately, yet you are only shooting in the mid eighties yourself. Of course, I do not wish to draw the conclusion that players who do not score well have no knowledge on the golf swing, as this is not the case.

 

The problem I see (at least for myself), is that the transition from a two plane swing to a one plane swing is quite significant in regards to time, money, and (most importantly) performance. All the 'success' stories I have heard so far have not convinced me to adopt the one plane swing.

 

Is there anyone currently on tour who implements pure one plane swing fundamentals who is consistantly successful on tour? The only player who comes to mind is Tiger Woods, and I would not even consider him a pure one plane swing.

 

Ducky-

 

I'm certainly no instructor, but I've been a sponge for swing theory my whole life, and have worked with some notable teachers. For someone who played just 13 rounds this year, and averaged 6 or 7 for most of the past twenty-five, I feel pretty good about my game. When I played a lot thirty years ago, I shot in the 70's (I still do, but less often). As far as being passionate about Hardy and his theories, Carol, John Hobbins and others have convinced me that he is correct, as do the occasions when I experience it on my own. Part of the passion is also fueled by the misrepresentations of Hardy and his theories that litter the internet golf forums.

 

I have an issue with your statement that I have passionately discredited other teachers, including Tom Bertrand. Please provide some quotes backing that statement up. If accurately characterizing his and others methods, at times using Hardy's terms, is "discrediting" in your view, you have a peculiar take on things.

 

I'd also like to know where I have ever passionately advocated that someone adopt a one-plane swing, particularly someone having success with another method. If anything, my posts in this regard have been cautionary. As Hogan counseled John Schlee, one has to be passionate about making a significant change in your game, or you'll wind up right back where you started, inevitably reverting to old tendencies.

 

Examples abound of very successful one-planers, although Tiger is far from a "pure" one-planer. On tour today there are many reasonably "pure" one-planers: the Hardy students Jacobsen, McCarron, Jay Delsing, Paul Azinger, Tom Pernice, Don Pooley (a changeover "successs" story from a broken two-plane swing), and Olin Browne (comeback player of the year in 2005; led the tour in proximity to the hole in 2005). Going down the money list, Ogilvy, Singh, Immelman and Appleby all have a lot of one-plane elements in their swings, as does Chad Campbell. Many excellent foreign players are one-plane, amomg them Jose-Maria when he was winning, Sergio, Jiminez, and Angel Cabrera. Of course, Duval was one-plane when he was number 1. Though they have two-plane backswings, Couples and Furyk have wonderful one-plane downswings and are great ballstrikers (who also put to rest the incorrect notion, promoted by Bertrand and others, that, in order to have consistency, one must keep the elbows tightly together). Though still two-plane with the long clubs, Lefty didn't start winning majors until he adopted his one-plane, three-quarter shot with the irons.

 

Of course, the greatest winner on tour, Sam Snead, was a "pure" one-planer. In fact, the great payers with the longest careers and broadest scope of victories have been one-plane: Hogan, Player, Sarazen, Trevino, Snead, Byron Nelson, Palmer, Boros, Mickey Wright, Kathy Whitworth. No two-planer, except Nicklaus and Tiger, has won a career grand slam, although both were one-plane at some point in their careers; in Nicklaus's case, he was one-plane with a flying right elbow in the 1960's, a la Furyk and Couples, and Tiger, despite a two-plane driver swing, may fall in a hybrid category since his iron swing is still pretty much one-plane. In contrast, many of the "brilliant but ultimately disappointing players" have been two-plane: Weiskopf (one major), Greg Norman (2 majors), Davis Love (1 major), Seve (the ultimate scrambler, washed up in his thirties), Crenshaw (2 Masters, won with the putter), Monty (no majors). Even the best "pure" two-planer, Tom Watson, won more based on his putter than his ballstriking.

 

In my own case, there is no doubt my handicap would be lower today if I had focused all my practice time the past two years on my short game and perfecting a two-plane swing. But I'd rather try to master the swing that Snead used, then work on that other stuff. When I have more time to play and compete, I think it will have been worth it.

 

Jeff

[golfer.61]

one planers are old school if you look at alot of the greats most had alot of hardy's fundementals in their swing...Jack N. came along and thru a wrench in at how the swing was looked at...modern trend seems to be headed back to what the old greats already knew...funny how we tend to reinvent the wheel....

[Ducky]

Jeffy,

 

Thanks for your response. I have re-read the threads regarding Tom Bertrand's book, and acknowledge that you were not criticising his teachings, but rather that they were not what Hogan implemented in his own swing. So I apologise for that.

[Furrankee]

Here's my swing theory:

 

- shoulders back

 

- step

 

- hips turn

 

- squash the bug

 

- release

 

- rhythm

 

--- It's all starts with a good lively posture position and it works every time. And my swing looks good too.

[jeffy]

Jeffy,

 

Thanks for your response. I have re-read the threads regarding Tom Bertrand's book, and acknowledge that you were not criticising his teachings, but rather that they were not what Hogan implemented in his own swing. So I apologise for that.

 

Ducky-

 

Apology gratefully accepted. I appreciate your prompt, thoughtful response.

 

Jeff