Do Teeace's graphs have any role in enhancing our understanding of Hogan's swing?

[golfbulldog1]

Anyoone who wishes to discuss Teeace's graphs and whether they relate to Hogan - fire away...Thanks.

[golfbulldog1]

Set up this thread to try and keep the bickering away from the Sam Snead thread ... some hope !!

[TeeAce]

So talking about graphs and moves in Hogans swing and some I have posted.

 

I got some players measured, where they seems to be like Hogan in many positions, but not even one who is like that during all the swing. I know few of those players are doing lot of work to get the similar impact position, but they just can't. It's same problem with me. I can do it in slow motion, as well those players can, but never in full sped swing. So in that case there can be some parts of the graph that are really similar to Hogan as we compare those with videos from different angles, but they all loose that just before impact, just like here with elbow paths

 

 

That's why I have asked HG to post the video to see if he got it right. Hogan, Snead and many other great ball strikers had their right elbow still inside the left after impact or at least at impact, even their shoulders were much open. I know some European tour players that are working to get it done, but after one year of trying hasn't managed to get it.

 

So to get 20 degrees open from shoulders and still got the line of elbows to be 20 degrees closed, that's what many greats are doing and has done for decades. I've heard from many players that it's not a problem to do it and they think they are able to that. Until now haven't seen anyone doing it here.

[golfbulldog1]

Thanks for replying here, T. I hope that we can keep this discussion going in right direction.

I think that it would be good to ask you what you see in 2D Hogan swings which is so beneficial to ball-striking (even this might be subject for 50 page debate) AND then to ask you what those features would look like on your 3D graphs.

So to start with - you mention elbow positions - in you elbow graph...is this depicting the locations of right (blue) and left (red) elbows from above?? ie. black line being target line?? Forgive me if that is wrong.

Thanks

[golfbulldog1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD6H_Rgc8IY

Do these players elbows behave in the way that your chart shows?? The right elbow coming away from right hip before impact and right arm straightens with it becoming level with left elbow around impact ???

Dustin Johnson seems to do a better job than the others of keeping right elbow in... maybe??

[golfbulldog1]

Thought I would just show the original Snead stuff from my other thread - the hands never crossing, the elbow locations ...that seems to be a really important part of Teeace's point..at least my understanding of it so far....

 

"For a guy that basically said Hogan had no secret he gave an interesting opinion in the LIfe Magazine article which preceded Hogan's publication....

 

 

Does his photo show more than his words??

 

The words which accompanied this image were:

 

'Hands never cross.

Sam Snead, who over the years has been Hogan's top rival, is not absolutely sure that Hogan has a secret: "Anybody can say he's got a seret if he won't tell what it is." But if Hogan has a secret, Snead says it could only be one thing: he won't let his right hand cross over his left until long after hitting the ball.

 

Snead shows the vertical position of Hogan's right hand as it sweeps through the hitting area ..."hand action like this," Snead says,"prevents that hook that bothered old Ben." '

 

Is the body position which accompanied his hand position a key move? ie. what the photo shows but is not discussed in the image.

[moehogan]

[quote name='golfbulldog1' timestamp='1319988694' post='3738183']
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD6H_Rgc8IY

Do these players elbows behave in the way that your chart shows?? The right elbow coming away from right hip before impact and right arm straightens with it becoming level with left elbow around impact ???

Dustin Johnson seems to do a better job than the others of keeping right elbow in... maybe??
[/quote]
GB,

Supination encourages the upper arm and elbow to attach to the torso ... pronation does the opposite. Simply hold your right forearm straight out in front of you and rotate it as far as you can back and forth from palm up to palm down to palm up. The right upper arm/elbow attachment from supination causes the arm rotation to find it's limit and locks the the entire right side together. Dorsiflex the wrist and you will feel it even a little stronger (hint for later discussion).

The best chance you have to keep the right elbow in close into impact is to maintain this supination of the right forearm. I have yet to find a post secret photo of Mr. H at impact where the palm side of his right forearm is not predominately facing the sky (supinated). Much easier to see if he is not wearing a sweater. Of course, the right arm supination eventually is allowed to release post impact into the the finish swivel. Moe released it earlier, but also had it in the DS.

Right arm supination is your friend ... Sam knew!

mh

[golfbulldog1]

MH, I agree - and I think that right forearm supination will also make the clubhead do what it does in one of Teeace's graphs...from transition the clubhead moves away from the target line when viewed from above..at least I think that is what it showed.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='golfbulldog1' timestamp='1319988694' post='3738183']
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD6H_Rgc8IY

Do these players elbows behave in the way that your chart shows?? The right elbow coming away from right hip before impact and right arm straightens with it becoming level with left elbow around impact ???

Dustin Johnson seems to do a better job than the others of keeping right elbow in... maybe??
[/quote]


Great photos and You get it just right.

[tembolo1284]

So with this swing coming from inside and you pivoting so hard to not be stuck or underplane....what kind of ball flight
are we looking at?

[TeeAce]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1320064427' post='3741363']
So with this swing coming from inside and you pivoting so hard to not be stuck or underplane....what kind of ball flight
are we looking at?
[/quote]

It's in Your hands. That motion is only to put players to positions where they can decide what flight they want.

[tembolo1284]

This right arm supination thing has my attention.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1320427268' post='3759317']
This right arm supination thing has my attention.
[/quote]

When talking about opening club face we have to understand relative to what we open it. Great players like Hogan opened it relative to his body by arms triangle, but it was not open to the target line, because he closed it with three other moves. That's how he secured the right hand not to take over and close the face too much.

[groveler]

Moehogan you made mention of dorsi flexing the right wrist as a hint for later discussion. Is it later? I would love to hear a bit more of your thoughts there.

[moehogan]

[quote name='groveler' timestamp='1320463970' post='3761621']
Moehogan you made mention of dorsi flexing the right wrist as a hint for later discussion. Is it later? I would love to hear a bit more of your thoughts there.
[/quote]
Sent you a PM.

[tembolo1284]

So what's the verdict in this thread?

[dap]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1323360715' post='3910783']
So what's the verdict in this thread?
[/quote]
Are you baiting me into saying something?

You trouble maker you.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1323397098' post='3914125']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1323360715' post='3910783']
So what's the verdict in this thread?
[/quote]
Are you baiting me into saying something?

You trouble maker you.
[/quote]

I would like to hear your opinion of those. You know we have to be able to fix the hardest parts so that even simplest people can understand those. That's why every opinion and feedback is very welcome.

[Lefthook]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1323409276' post='3914965']
I would like to hear your opinion of those. You know we have to be able to fix the hardest parts so that even simplest people can understand those. That's why every opinion and feedback is very welcome.
[/quote]

I have an opinion, TeeAce,

Most of your charts are hard to read on the fly. At least three different projections, speed, acceleration and position and god knows what. And often without even a template. A title, a more detailed sub title and a good template could do wonders IMO.

Also i think it would for newcomers if a few standard charts were used and recognized as such. You must have a lot of experience by now, which presentations are fit to analyze which aspects of the stroke.

In other words: A touch of high level structuring might come in handy.

It looks like you guys have something very exiting going on, and I hope you will be successful in your efforts.

[dap]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1323409276' post='3914965']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1323397098' post='3914125']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1323360715' post='3910783']
So what's the verdict in this thread?
[/quote]
Are you baiting me into saying something?

You trouble maker you.
[/quote]

I would like to hear your opinion of those. You know we have to be able to fix the hardest parts so that even simplest people can understand those. That's why every opinion and feedback is very welcome.
[/quote]
Oh alright if you insist.

To answer the question of this thread,"Does Teeace's graphs have any role in enhancing our understanding of Hogan's swing?".I would say a resounding YES.If you are all shocked and surprised,let me explain.

Hogan has never been measured by Tee or by any other 3D machines so there are NO graphs of Hogan.So how pray do you ask that Tee can understand Hogan without any graphs or data?

Well,because since Tee understands 3D machines and the meaning behind the graphs so comprehensively,he has developed "3D eyes".He can look at any blurry,fuzzy Hogan 2D video from any angle and come to perfectly rational conclusions based on his 3D eyes developed through his understanding of 3D space and time.

Yes,when you develop 3D eyes,you can see through 2D illusion and that is how one can enhance ones understanding of Hogan's or for that matter anyones swing.

[dap]

P.S 3D eyes should not be confused with X-ray eyes.

X-ray eyes don't exist.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='Lefthook' timestamp='1323413385' post='3915123']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1323409276' post='3914965']
I would like to hear your opinion of those. You know we have to be able to fix the hardest parts so that even simplest people can understand those. That's why every opinion and feedback is very welcome.
[/quote]

I have an opinion, TeeAce,

Most of your charts are hard to read on the fly. At least three different projections, speed, acceleration and position and god knows what. And often without even a template. A title, a more detailed sub title and a good template could do wonders IMO.

Also i think it would for newcomers if a few standard charts were used and recognized as such. You must have a lot of experience by now, which presentations are fit to analyze which aspects of the stroke.

In other words: A touch of high level structuring might come in handy.

It looks like you guys have something very exiting going on, and I hope you will be successful in your efforts.
[/quote]

They are hard to read because you don't see here same than I see in real UI. I can see mm:s when putting cursor on that line and I can combine whatever measurements I like and also run 4 high speed videos synchronized to each other and also with the graphs.

I had the meaning to put some shots here under one username to give access to real data before I got beaten of few nice guys here. When it went to level it is, I decided not to do that because I felt whatever I try to say that was turned around so I felt it only will make more chaos here.

Thats why I only make presentations via Skype for writers I feel are worth of that.

But you are still right it's hell of the work to learn everything from those and that's not even the purpose. There is many simple combinations to see the most relevant things to learn and after that you can go as deep you ever want. I'm quite deep

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1323424371' post='3915313']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1323409276' post='3914965']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1323397098' post='3914125']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1323360715' post='3910783']
So what's the verdict in this thread?
[/quote]
Are you baiting me into saying something?

You trouble maker you.
[/quote]

I would like to hear your opinion of those. You know we have to be able to fix the hardest parts so that even simplest people can understand those. That's why every opinion and feedback is very welcome.
[/quote]
Oh alright if you insist.

To answer the question of this thread,"Does Teeace's graphs have any role in enhancing our understanding of Hogan's swing?".I would say a resounding YES.If you are all shocked and surprised,let me explain.

Hogan has never been measured by Tee or by any other 3D machines so there are NO graphs of Hogan.So how pray do you ask that Tee can understand Hogan without any graphs or data?

Well,because since Tee understands 3D machines and the meaning behind the graphs so comprehensively,he has developed "3D eyes".He can look at any blurry,fuzzy Hogan 2D video from any angle and come to perfectly rational conclusions based on his 3D eyes developed through his understanding of 3D space and time.

Yes,when you develop 3D eyes,you can see through 2D illusion and that is how one can enhance ones understanding of Hogan's or for that matter anyones swing.
[/quote]


Dude, this was absolutely a riot!