Beating a dead horse - 5L is full of truths and purposeful deception

[tylerdurden]

such a trickster

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1360563411' post='6404721']
such a trickster
[/quote]

Let's make a long list of what everyone feels hogan purposely deceived us and then the first guy to go in the ground can do a formal interview with him..torture him if necessary to admit his lies...and then (assuming technology is good enough in the after-life) they can post their findings and let all of us know.

Cool?

[dairic]

I'm sucker for a good conspiracy theory. What are the purposeful deceptions in 5 Lessons?

I heard that just before he died he was frozen in the same facility as Walt Disney. Hopefully, we will live long enough to see him defrosted on his scheduled defrost date of 2052 so we can ask him what's up with 5 lessons. Hey wait a minute, that's the 500th anniversary of the Old Course at St-Andrews!! Concidence? no freaking way! I don't know I'm just saying. Apparently, Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods cry whenever they watch Empire Strikes Back....what don't you think they'll get frozen too?? Mark you calendar, 2052 also happens to be when the ancient Scottish druidic calendar ends marking the end of the current cosmic cycle (aka the end of the freaking world mofos!!). It's all starting to make sense.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1360596326' post='6406025']
I'm sucker for a good conspiracy theory. What are the purposeful deceptions in 5 Lessons?

I heard that just before he died he was frozen in the same facility as Walt Disney. Hopefully, we will live long enough to see him defrosted on his scheduled defrost date of 2052 so we can ask him what's up with 5 lessons. Hey wait a minute, that's the 500th anniversary of the Old Course at St-Andrews!! Concidence? no freaking way! I don't know I'm just saying. Apparently, Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods cry whenever they watch Empire Strikes Back....what don't you think they'll get frozen too?? Mark you calendar, 2052 also happens to be when the ancient Scottish druidic calendar ends marking the end of the current cosmic cycle (aka the end of the freaking world mofos!!). It's all starting to make sense.
[/quote]

I'm re-reading zombie apocalypse survival guide. Looks like my 1 iron will come in handy in case the walking dead start coming after all of us duck hookers.

[dairic]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1360596889' post='6406105']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1360596326' post='6406025']
I'm sucker for a good conspiracy theory. What are the purposeful deceptions in 5 Lessons?

I heard that just before he died he was frozen in the same facility as Walt Disney. Hopefully, we will live long enough to see him defrosted on his scheduled defrost date of 2052 so we can ask him what's up with 5 lessons. Hey wait a minute, that's the 500th anniversary of the Old Course at St-Andrews!! Concidence? no freaking way! I don't know I'm just saying. Apparently, Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods cry whenever they watch Empire Strikes Back....what don't you think they'll get frozen too?? Mark you calendar, 2052 also happens to be when the ancient Scottish druidic calendar ends marking the end of the current cosmic cycle (aka the end of the freaking world mofos!!). It's all starting to make sense.
[/quote]

I'm re-reading zombie apocalypse survival guide. Looks like my 1 iron will come in handy in case the walking dead start coming after all of us duck hookers.
[/quote]

A 1-iron is also useful for fishing stuff from under the couch. Do you seriously still play with a 1-iron?

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1360597182' post='6406151']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1360596889' post='6406105']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1360596326' post='6406025']
I'm sucker for a good conspiracy theory. What are the purposeful deceptions in 5 Lessons?

I heard that just before he died he was frozen in the same facility as Walt Disney. Hopefully, we will live long enough to see him defrosted on his scheduled defrost date of 2052 so we can ask him what's up with 5 lessons. Hey wait a minute, that's the 500th anniversary of the Old Course at St-Andrews!! Concidence? no freaking way! I don't know I'm just saying. Apparently, Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods cry whenever they watch Empire Strikes Back....what don't you think they'll get frozen too?? Mark you calendar, 2052 also happens to be when the ancient Scottish druidic calendar ends marking the end of the current cosmic cycle (aka the end of the freaking world mofos!!). It's all starting to make sense.
[/quote]

I'm re-reading zombie apocalypse survival guide. Looks like my 1 iron will come in handy in case the walking dead start coming after all of us duck hookers.
[/quote]

A 1-iron is also useful for fishing stuff from under the couch. Do you seriously still play with a 1-iron?
[/quote]

Only on links courses!

[tylerdurden]

I think the biggest deceptions in 5L are the backswing sequencing and the restricted hip turn.

I also think he purposely omitted some very important stuff that he did. I don't blame him for not including it though. I just don't think all the answers are there. I still love the book though. It's fun to try to understand and reconcile it with what he actually did.

[dairic]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1360599791' post='6406493']
I think the biggest deceptions in 5L are the backswing sequencing and the restricted hip turn.

I also think he purposely omitted some very important stuff that he did. I don't blame him for not including it though. I just don't think all the answers are there. I still love the book though. It's fun to try to understand and reconcile it with what he actually did.
[/quote]

This could explain why I'm having problems with my hip turn. I don't know if you guys saw but I posted my swing in the main forum last night regarding this very issue.

I'll rake through 5 lessons later and see where I can find contradictions with what he's said or does. Good topic and could make for interesting discussion.

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1360602091' post='6406775']
[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1360599791' post='6406493']
I think the biggest deceptions in 5L are the backswing sequencing and the restricted hip turn.

I also think he purposely omitted some very important stuff that he did. I don't blame him for not including it though. I just don't think all the answers are there. I still love the book though. It's fun to try to understand and reconcile it with what he actually did.
[/quote]

This could explain why I'm having problems with my hip turn. I don't know if you guys saw but I posted my swing in the main forum last night regarding this very issue.

I'll rake through 5 lessons later and see where I can find contradictions with what he's said or does. Good topic and could make for interesting discussion.
[/quote]

Yep I saw the swing. Looks solid. I was surprised how much hip bend you had though given that you're a Hogan nut.

[dairic]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1360597400' post='6406207']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1360597182' post='6406151']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1360596889' post='6406105']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1360596326' post='6406025']
I'm sucker for a good conspiracy theory. What are the purposeful deceptions in 5 Lessons?

I heard that just before he died he was frozen in the same facility as Walt Disney. Hopefully, we will live long enough to see him defrosted on his scheduled defrost date of 2052 so we can ask him what's up with 5 lessons. Hey wait a minute, that's the 500th anniversary of the Old Course at St-Andrews!! Concidence? no freaking way! I don't know I'm just saying. Apparently, Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods cry whenever they watch Empire Strikes Back....what don't you think they'll get frozen too?? Mark you calendar, 2052 also happens to be when the ancient Scottish druidic calendar ends marking the end of the current cosmic cycle (aka the end of the freaking world mofos!!). It's all starting to make sense.
[/quote]

I'm re-reading zombie apocalypse survival guide. Looks like my 1 iron will come in handy in case the walking dead start coming after all of us duck hookers.
[/quote]

A 1-iron is also useful for fishing stuff from under the couch. Do you seriously still play with a 1-iron?
[/quote]

Only on links courses!
[/quote]

That's awesome!

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1360602287' post='6406815']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1360597400' post='6406207']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1360597182' post='6406151']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1360596889' post='6406105']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1360596326' post='6406025']
I'm sucker for a good conspiracy theory. What are the purposeful deceptions in 5 Lessons?

I heard that just before he died he was frozen in the same facility as Walt Disney. Hopefully, we will live long enough to see him defrosted on his scheduled defrost date of 2052 so we can ask him what's up with 5 lessons. Hey wait a minute, that's the 500th anniversary of the Old Course at St-Andrews!! Concidence? no freaking way! I don't know I'm just saying. Apparently, Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods cry whenever they watch Empire Strikes Back....what don't you think they'll get frozen too?? Mark you calendar, 2052 also happens to be when the ancient Scottish druidic calendar ends marking the end of the current cosmic cycle (aka the end of the freaking world mofos!!). It's all starting to make sense.
[/quote]

I'm re-reading zombie apocalypse survival guide. Looks like my 1 iron will come in handy in case the walking dead start coming after all of us duck hookers.
[/quote]

A 1-iron is also useful for fishing stuff from under the couch. Do you seriously still play with a 1-iron?
[/quote]

Only on links courses!
[/quote]

That's awesome!
[/quote]

I def don't hit it high in the air with these new balls.

With balata though they are prettttty.

[ej002]

One of my biggest problems is the restricted hip turn - b/c I compensate by trying to swing back with my arms - then I over swing, they get behind me, my hips start, my arms are left behind... and you get the idea. If you can turn your whole "body" - staying in sync is easier and good things happen, IMO.

[dairic]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1360604250' post='6407033']
One of my biggest problems is the restricted hip turn - b/c I compensate by trying to swing back with my arms - then I over swing, they get behind me, my hips start, my arms are left behind... and you get the idea. If you can turn your whole "body" - staying in sync is easier and good things happen, IMO.
[/quote]

Same here. Does anyone think that trying to keep the but of the shaft pointing at the belly button during the takeaway a good thought to get the hips moving?

[Stryker]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1360604768' post='6407113']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1360604250' post='6407033']
One of my biggest problems is the restricted hip turn - b/c I compensate by trying to swing back with my arms - then I over swing, they get behind me, my hips start, my arms are left behind... and you get the idea. If you can turn your whole "body" - staying in sync is easier and good things happen, IMO.
[/quote]

Same here. Does anyone think that trying to keep the but of the shaft pointing at the belly button during the takeaway a good thought to get the hips moving?
[/quote]

I use the thought of turning my belly button into my bent right knee. Gets my hips working pretty similar to Byrd/Mahan.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='Stryker' timestamp='1360605507' post='6407213']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1360604768' post='6407113']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1360604250' post='6407033']
One of my biggest problems is the restricted hip turn - b/c I compensate by trying to swing back with my arms - then I over swing, they get behind me, my hips start, my arms are left behind... and you get the idea. If you can turn your whole "body" - staying in sync is easier and good things happen, IMO.
[/quote]

Same here. Does anyone think that trying to keep the but of the shaft pointing at the belly button during the takeaway a good thought to get the hips moving?
[/quote]

I use the thought of turning my belly button into my bent right knee. Gets my hips working pretty similar to Byrd/Mahan.
[/quote]

I haven't seen my belly button in eleven years.

[ej002]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1360613203' post='6408123']
[quote name='Stryker' timestamp='1360605507' post='6407213']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1360604768' post='6407113']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1360604250' post='6407033']
One of my biggest problems is the restricted hip turn - b/c I compensate by trying to swing back with my arms - then I over swing, they get behind me, my hips start, my arms are left behind... and you get the idea. If you can turn your whole "body" - staying in sync is easier and good things happen, IMO.
[/quote]

Same here. Does anyone think that trying to keep the but of the shaft pointing at the belly button during the takeaway a good thought to get the hips moving?
[/quote]

I use the thought of turning my belly button into my bent right knee. Gets my hips working pretty similar to Byrd/Mahan.
[/quote]

I haven't seen my belly button in eleven years.
[/quote]

When I take a shower, my feet dont get wet...

In all seriousness, I am not sure about that though. I just work on turning the whole body, when I practice I allow my head to move like I am looking to the right.

[tylerdurden]

Ok so most are in agreement about the hips, so why do we think he said it? Same with BS sequencing?

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1360617011' post='6408541']
Ok so most are in agreement about the hips, so why do we think he said it? Same with BS sequencing?
[/quote]

Because it's probably something he truly felt. As we all know feel isn't real.

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1360617169' post='6408563']
[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1360617011' post='6408541']
Ok so most are in agreement about the hips, so why do we think he said it? Same with BS sequencing?
[/quote]

Because it's probably something he truly felt. As we all know feel isn't real.
[/quote]

I thought about that I'm just unsure at this point for a few reasons.

In that Jackie Burke SITD interview, Burke said how Hogan said "keep them dumb, keep them stupid" or something like that.

But the other thing is that Hogan was so thorough and understood his swing so well that it just doesn't make sense that his feel, a swing key, would be a restricted hip turn, when he did the exact opposite. As much as he practiced, I'm sure he'd realize that a restricted hip turn messed his swing up and a free one helped him.

At least that's my theory.

[dairic]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1360619781' post='6408887']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1360617169' post='6408563']
[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1360617011' post='6408541']
Ok so most are in agreement about the hips, so why do we think he said it? Same with BS sequencing?
[/quote]

Because it's probably something he truly felt. As we all know feel isn't real.
[/quote]

I thought about that I'm just unsure at this point for a few reasons.

In that Jackie Burke SITD interview, Burke said how Hogan said "keep them dumb, keep them stupid" or something like that.

But the other thing is that Hogan was so thorough and understood his swing so well that it just doesn't make sense that his feel, a swing key, would be a restricted hip turn, when he did the exact opposite. As much as he practiced, I'm sure he'd realize that a restricted hip turn messed his swing up and a free one helped him.

At least that's my theory.
[/quote]

I think that he for sure withheld information from his competitors, but I'd have to be convinced that he purposefully engage in a campaign of spreading misinformation. As far as 5 lessons goes, I don't think he ever claimed that what's in that book is a perfect description of his golf swing. It's a learning guide for amateur golfers with the goal of breaking 80. Also, his swing changed through the many years he played so it shouldn't be too difficult finding differences between what he wrote and what he did. I also think he knew exactly what he was doing btw and took many mysteries to the grave.

[Jim Waldron]

He did restrict the hips, which does not mean his hips dont move, it just means he did not move the hips with the hip rotator muscles. Anyone who has ever taken a Pilates lesson knows what Hogan was referring to, use the Core to initiate the motion and not the hips themselves, at least during the takeaway segment.

What he did not reveal in 5 Lessons but told Schlee and a few other was the arms in front concept and arms mainly going up and down in V shape, as part of his Triangle concept. He did not really elaborate on the Triangle in the book, it is much more important and inflential than he let on in the book, although it is in there, just not really gotten into in depth.

He did not talk about arm sretch/extension pressure either or arms to right of mid-line during Release, he was not going to reveal everything while still competing, no blame there.

He also totally neglected the mental game in 5 Lesson, and Hogan was a huge fan of that topic, who understood the power of the subconscious mind, targt focus, trusting one's swing, taking away all conscious mind interference from the swing motion - really important stuff you will almost never see discussed on a golf forum.

He also left out the super slow motion mirror training regime that he had employed for years when making swing changes. How to practice effectively both at home and on the range could have been a whole separate chapter.

[dairic]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1360631106' post='6410053']
He did restrict the hips, which does not mean his hips dont move, it just means he did not move the hips with the hip rotator muscles. Anyone who has ever taken a Pilates lesson knows what Hogan was referring to, use the Core to initiate the motion and not the hips themselves, at least during the takeaway segment.

What he did not reveal in 5 Lessons but told Schlee and a few other was the arms in front concept and arms mainly going up and down in V shape, as part of his Triangle concept. He did not really elaborate on the Triangle in the book, it is much more important and inflential than he let on in the book, although it is in there, just not really gotten into in depth.

He did not talk about arm sretch/extension pressure either or arms to right of mid-line during Release, he was not going to reveal everything while still competing, no blame there.

He also totally neglected the mental game in 5 Lesson, and Hogan was a huge fan of that topic, who understood the power of the subconscious mind, targt focus, trusting one's swing, taking away all conscious mind interference from the swing motion - really important stuff you will almost never see discussed on a golf forum.

He also left out the super slow motion mirror training regime that he had employed for years when making swing changes. How to practice effectively both at home and on the range could have been a whole separate chapter.
[/quote]

Jim, your posts are always excellent.

What do you think about continually pointing the butt of the club at the naval or belt buckle during the takeaway to ensure the hips don't get too restricted.

[tylerdurden]

Dairic - I know you weren't asking me but I'll comment anyway. I monkeyed with that feeling in the past, for other reasons than yours, and I'm convinced it caused more harm than good, at least in my case. The reason is that it made me engage my arms and hands during the takeaway to try steering the club into the right spot. Instead of using the correct core forces and allowing the club and arms to flow through the correct spot. I was basically position posing. So I'd just say watch out for that.

[dairic]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1360633588' post='6410353']
Dairic - I know you weren't asking me but I'll comment anyway. I monkeyed with that feeling in the past, for other reasons than yours, and I'm convinced it caused more harm than good, at least in my case. The reason is that it made me engage my arms and hands during the takeaway to try steering the club into the right spot. Instead of using the correct core forces and allowing the club and arms to flow through the correct spot. I was basically position posing. So I'd just say watch out for that.
[/quote]

Thanks man, this is the kind of feedback I want to hear before I start grooving anything new. I'll be careful given your bad experience with this move. I just thought that if the shaft maintains the same relationship with the body during the takeaway the this means that everything (shoulders, arms, hands, and hips) must be moving with nothing restricted.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1360632263' post='6410189']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1360631106' post='6410053']
He did restrict the hips, which does not mean his hips dont move, it just means he did not move the hips with the hip rotator muscles. Anyone who has ever taken a Pilates lesson knows what Hogan was referring to, use the Core to initiate the motion and not the hips themselves, at least during the takeaway segment.

What he did not reveal in 5 Lessons but told Schlee and a few other was the arms in front concept and arms mainly going up and down in V shape, as part of his Triangle concept. He did not really elaborate on the Triangle in the book, it is much more important and inflential than he let on in the book, although it is in there, just not really gotten into in depth.

He did not talk about arm sretch/extension pressure either or arms to right of mid-line during Release, he was not going to reveal everything while still competing, no blame there.

He also totally neglected the mental game in 5 Lesson, and Hogan was a huge fan of that topic, who understood the power of the subconscious mind, targt focus, trusting one's swing, taking away all conscious mind interference from the swing motion - really important stuff you will almost never see discussed on a golf forum.

He also left out the super slow motion mirror training regime that he had employed for years when making swing changes. How to practice effectively both at home and on the range could have been a whole separate chapter.
[/quote]

Jim, your posts are always excellent.

What do you think about continually pointing the butt of the club at the naval or belt buckle during the takeaway to ensure the hips don't get too restricted.
[/quote]

It's not literally true, ie shaft to belly button. But can be a good "general" sense picture for a good takeaway with arm motion, wrist motion and body motion linked together. But only during the first quarter to maybe third of the takeaway segment. When you rotate your Core, your belly button really does not move very much, it still faces the center of your stance more or less, during that early stage of takeaway.

[tembolo1284]

I'm starting to like this thread.

Def agree that hip restriction is a death move.

[H4CK]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1360631106' post='6410053']
He also totally neglected the mental game in 5 Lesson, and Hogan was a huge fan of that topic, who understood the power of the subconscious mind, targt focus, trusting one's swing, taking away all conscious mind interference from the swing motion - really important stuff you will almost never see discussed on a golf forum.
[/quote]

"Before we commence the instruction, let me tell you more
specifically what we will be doing and what we hope to
accomplish. To begin with, the book will comprise five
lessons. In each one we will be presenting the golfer-reader
with one or two fundamentals for him to practice and
become well acquainted with so that he will be building a
progressively sound foundation on which the ensuing fundamentals
can be added. The golfer who devotes a half hour
daily to practicing the points we will be bringing out during
these five lessons will, I believe, improve his game and his
scoring immediately and decisively. The degree of improvement
his game will show will vary with the quality of each
individual's application. By continuing to practice and apply
these fundamentals, the golfer will continue to improve his
game-quite often, far beyond his fondest dreams. I do genuinely
believe this: THE AVERAGE GOLFER IS ENTIRELY
CAPABLE OF BUILDING A REPEATING SWING AND BREAKING 80,
if he learns to perform a small number of correct movements
and conversely, it follows, eliminates a lot of movements which tend to keep the
swing from repeating.[color=#b22222] In these lessons we will certainly not
be attempting to cover all of golf or even one-hundredth of
that almost inexhaustible subject. What we will be concerning
ourselves with are the facts of golf which have proved
themselves to be the true fundamentals-[b]fundamentals that
can be checked and not simply left to the imagination or to
guesswork.[/b][/color]This is all that is really needed."

That passage is specifically to address the stuff he left out (that is the stuff that can't be checked). Plus him and Bobby Jones have both written/said that golf is an inexhaustible subject so not everything will be covered.

As for the topic, in my opinion, there's no purposeful deception (at least not maliciously so). A lot may have been left out, but maybe so the points of emphasis wouldn't be lost. On another note, being too specific would make him vulnerable to being "wrong" and ultimately dismissed. I feel that they're less deceptions and more like checkpoint barriers. For example, everything is a chain action according to Hogan. Hogan ultimately says that there are about 8 fundamentals and their quality of execution is dependent upon the quality of the preceding fundamentals.

So, for those who have trouble with the hip turn, perhaps it is a result of not absorbing/applying the preceding lessons well enough. Perhaps your grip and stance/posture just isn't quite up to snuff to identify with his idea of the restricted hip turn.

But here is my main point. If there is deception in his statements it may be there to STOP you, but not to screw people up. So in a way, it's described in such a way that it is intended to make you fail IF you have not properly absorbed/interpreted the preceding lessons. Since he can't see what you're doing in person, the idea is to make sure you fail so you either go backwards or quit following the lessons altogether.

[b]In summary[/b], the deception is there to HELP you. If you are not following the lessons well, It either makes you review prior lessons [i]and/or[/i] to entice you to quit before investing too much time in it. It's there to put a brake on [i]fast trackers[/i] (people who assume they've mastered the previous fundamentals).

Also, I don't believe Five Lessons was meant to help everyone to swing like Hogan. It's there primarily to help the bad players focus on the right elements so they don't get "lost in a labyrinth of your own making."

[tembolo1284]

haha. this thread is great.

[tembolo1284]

So besides restricting hips...what else did Hogan say in his book that he clearly didn't do in his swing?

[Pinsplitter59]

I am just posting this coz after 2 months i just figured out how to get back my priveleges,
its a helpful discipline to sit at the back of the room and keep your mouth shut.
been spending the time going through 10 million different swing experiments,
nothing works, haven't made oe good swing.
had a lesson today and he pointed out a few helpful things, went to the pactice fairway after.
things did not feel right as usual, what i hate about what my swing usually feels like, and what was still happening, is that between taking the club away and when it hits the ball there is nothing, its a blank microsecond, too fast, i have no idea what just happened.
then i remembered an odd and new-to-me feeling when i was doing some chipping practice 2 months ago,
it was the feeling of taking the clubhead around and bringing it back around and "catching" the ball with the clubhead.
to do this i have to be very right hand conscious, usually i have no feeling at all of what my hands are doing.
its a very nice feeling and also it gives me "time" in the downswing, that's one thing i mentioned to the pro today, that i like to feel i have "time" in the downswing.
umm.. its kinda weird in a way, its almost like the club head is yor right hand and you are cupping/closing the clubhead around the ball like you are almost squeezing the ball in your hand, like grabbing the ball with the clubhead then throwing the ball.
usually my hits feel like the club face is a hard flat piece of steel and because of this the ball could slide off the face in any direction as it makes contact.
this new way makes the club face feel almost like it is concave and the ball sits "in" the club face for a microsecond before you then throw the ball.
And it is a much more "around-around" swing action that i have never had success with before, it seems the reason i can now feel it is just because i decided to be consciously aware of my right hand and let it tell the body to do.
ah well that's today..tomorrow is usually a new story...
BTW i am back home in Aus now so there is little chance of my posts been lead astray into the wild and wonderful world of not quite golf.