Hogan backswing observations

I wrote the stuff below last night in a email to my buddy but curious if anyone else had thoughts or comments. The main idea for me is that Hogan didn't turn the right side/core deep as an intention in the first move, but I really have no idea I'm just experimenting.

After viewing more video and going through 5L again, here are some things I've noticed:

As he says, the hips do not turn deep in the backswing, especially to start it. Hogan advocates creating tension/coil in backswing. He says hands arms and shoulders go first, and hips only turn in response to the shoulders turning.

He limits hip turn by not making them active, just reactive to upper body. This based on what he says in 5L and video. In video you can see his hip turn i very gradual throughout BS. His left shoulder turns down and away from target a lot while hips barely move initially, making me think lower body is really just reactive

While left heal lifts to maintain belt high, right leg is somewhat braced.

Lack of early hip turn is part of reason why hand path isn't super in initially and not much LAI.

Left Shoulder turns substantially down and away. In 5L talks manytimes about turning shoulders on plane of glass. So feels turning left shoulder down to ball, but it also stretches away from target substantially,

Right shoulder does not crank towards target. It almost stays in place then moves deep, as left shoulder stretches down and away from target.

Right elbow always in front of hip, as he describes and does.

His waggle is similar to first move in terms of hand action, like a faldo drill minus wrist c0ck, but left shoulder turns down and away and left arm is basically pushing in 1st move.

Maybe the left side pushing turn is why you never see his right side cranking, because maybe just turning left shoulder on plane of glass and stretch and the rest is reactive.

So maybe left side powers the move and everything else is reacting to a degree or less active?

I curious to know more about this -> "[i][size="2"]While left heal lifts to maintain belt high[/size][/i]"
Are you able to expand on this? was it intentional? why did he want to maintain belt high?

I personaly use the leading side to initiate the backswing. But I'm right handed playing lefty so my right (leading) side is dominant. The feeling is a push with the leading arm downward and at the same time pushing of the shaft with the pad of my leading hand which starts to c0cks the leading wrist. In the past I've had a tendency to work the shaft too shallow and to the inside on the backswing a bit to much. This way my backswing is a bit steeper and brings the left shoulder down. It took me some time to achieve a shallow angle of attack from this position and fought with straight or pull hooks at first (sucked the big one). Basically the right hip eventually needs to turn deep in the backswing to get in a position to hit from the inside (misses were then huge push hooks which sucked but were fun!) and secondary axis tilt gets me shallow enough (misses aren't that bad anymore, push draw is normal shot, this seemed to straighten things out a lot). Now my backswing and downswing seem to completment each other nicely which is about freaking time.

I don't know if BH used his leading side like that, but anyway for me it works

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1362167006' post='6528667']
I curious to know more about this -> "[i][size=2]While left heal lifts to maintain belt high[/size][/i]"
Are you able to expand on this? was it intentional? why did he want to maintain belt high?

I personaly use the leading side to initiate the backswing. But I'm right handed playing lefty so my right (leading) side is dominant. The feeling is a push with the leading arm downward and at the same time pushing of the shaft with the pad of my leading hand which starts to c0cks the leading wrist. In the past I've had a tendency to work the shaft too shallow and to the inside on the backswing a bit to much. This way my backswing is a bit steeper and brings the left shoulder down. It took me some time to achieve a shallow angle of attack from this position and fought with straight or pull hooks at first (sucked the big one). Basically the right hip eventually needs to turn deep in the backswing to get in a position to hit from the inside (misses were then huge push hooks which sucked but were fun!) and secondary axis tilt gets me shallow enough (misses aren't that bad anymore, push draw is normal shot, this seemed to straighten things out a lot). Now my backswing and downswing seem to completment each other nicely which is about freaking time.

I don't know if BH used his leading side like that, but anyway for me it works
[/quote]

I'm not sure if it was intentional but I got that idea from Kelvin M. Basically he says if belt line lowers you need to stall or jump in DS. Sets up a SSC that makes one of those inevitable.

Thanks for your comments. Interesting you use the leading side to start as well. Only thing that stood out to me as not being Hogan that you mention was the early c0ck.

His right pocket goes backwards at the same time the club starts from what I see. Talked with Geoff about this one day and he showed me Hogan and about 1,000 other swings with the same move.

[quote name='CSagan' timestamp='1362210641' post='6532083']
His right pocket goes backwards at the same time the club starts from what I see. Talked with Geoff about this one day and he showed me Hogan and about 1,000 other swings with the same move.
[/quote]

yes sir.

My last range session I focused on starting the swing with my hands rather than my body....hit the ball like 80% better. Maybe that Hogan guy knows his stuff.

A little off topic here but it does have to do with hogans backswing. Was hogans takeaway and backswing faster than most pros today? Was his swing tempo faster than most golfers?

[quote name='dominic713' timestamp='1362843123' post='6577239']
A little off topic here but it does have to do with hogans backswing. Was hogans takeaway and backswing faster than most pros today? Was his swing tempo faster than most golfers?
[/quote]

That's my impression. Tempo seems faster and whole swing seems more athletic, more "bouncy" than most golfers today. More like an old fashioned tennis ground stroke (think wooden racket era). The downswing seems to "rebound" off the backswing in one continuous motion...actually, with downswing starting even before backswing it completed.

[quote name='dominic713' timestamp='1362843123' post='6577239']
A little off topic here but it does have to do with hogans backswing. Was hogans takeaway and backswing faster than most pros today? Was his swing tempo faster than most golfers?
[/quote]

Hogan talked specifically about his tempo being on the quick side. He knew when he got into a pressure situation his swing had the tendency to speed up. So he figured, why practice a swing tempo that becomes different under pressure. It is important to note that you can have a quick tempo but also have a smooth rhythmic swing. Think Nick Price.

I think tempo is over rated. That is why his swing is so awesome - it is "tempo proof." Tempo matters to guys like VJ and Donald. I hate when people tell me that I was too "quick" - I am like wtf does that even mean?

I agree that "tempo" is tossed around more than it needs to be. I think people actually mean "sequence" or should mean sequence, anyway.

Good info. Thanks for the replies to my questions.

I'm liking this thread. Tyler come back in here man and add to it.

Do a transition one. That's the crazy part. End of backswing and beg of transition.

Does BH ever reference wrist c0ck on the bs? I don't recall seeing anything in the 5L on it.

[quote name='Woodridge' timestamp='1373072001' post='7395466']
Does BH ever reference wrist c0ck on the bs? I don't recall seeing anything in the 5L on it.
[/quote]
Is that related to P3?

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1364932378' post='6746233']
I'm liking this thread. Tyler come back in here man and add to it.

Do a transition one. That's the crazy part. End of backswing and beg of transition.
[/quote]

Damn Tyler. I've been denied!

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1373464589' post='7423830']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1364932378' post='6746233']
I'm liking this thread. Tyler come back in here man and add to it.

Do a transition one. That's the crazy part. End of backswing and beg of transition.
[/quote]

Damn Tyler. I've been denied!
[/quote]

Haha my bad. I'm not qualified man.

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1373466584' post='7424034']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1373464589' post='7423830']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1364932378' post='6746233']
I'm liking this thread. Tyler come back in here man and add to it.

Do a transition one. That's the crazy part. End of backswing and beg of transition.
[/quote]

Damn Tyler. I've been denied!
[/quote]

Haha my bad. I'm not qualified man.
[/quote]

Duuuuuuuude! Not cool!

New theory: I've been looking at some footage lately and I now think that he initiated his takeaway not with his upper body, but with his hips instead. Right bum cheak move away from the ball before his hands move. You can really see it in the shell match if you look at his DTL takeaway in frame by frame slow motion.

Will post gifs when I get around to it.

Didn't he say he started it with his left side though?

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1373479447' post='7425714']
Didn't he say he started it with his left side though?
[/quote]

He probably did, but this move I'm looking into could be the equivalent of Snead's forward press for example and then stepped into the backswing. Something to set the action in motion. I don't see the forward press in Hogan's case but there is some subtle lower body movement before his upper body starts to move.

Here's one example

[attachment=1777606:takeaway Augusta.gif]

And another

[attachment=1777610:takeaway Shell.gif]

So kuchar's little hover and fall back is like hogan on steroids! I do a similar thing. I think it's just a feel for me to get ready
to push the hips back and deep and make sure I get the weight on the inside of the right leg. With a driver since Hogan moved off the ball
a hair, it was probably even more noticeable.

Good stuff Dairic!

I love how hogan is compressing into the ground right from the get-go. BOOM!

Good stuff Dairic

It's really cool how his whole body seems to be engaged right from the start. I looked at Hunter Mahan's takeaway last night and in comparison he's are stiff as a board. Hands are the first thing to move with no lower body movement at all. If I have time tonight I'll post a few gifs to make the comparison.

[i]“I get my hips underway before my hands have made any attempt to swing the head of the club. If the hands start the swing first, there will be a tendency to leave the hips behind – not to make a full turn – which is one of the most common faults in golf.”[/i]

-- Bobby Jones

That's a great quote by bobby!

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1373556076' post='7431828']
It's really cool how his whole body seems to be engaged right from the start. I looked at Hunter Mahan's takeaway last night and in comparison he's are stiff as a board. Hands are the first thing to move with no lower body movement at all. If I have time tonight I'll post a few gifs to make the comparison.
[/quote]

Sir i'm waiting for your comparison images!