Confessions 12 --- Exploding Heads

[scomac2002]

 

Can you tell I'm getting frustrated here? Perhaps I'm just too tired. It has been a long week that is really taxing my desire...

 

I profusely apologize if I'm the source of it, my friend! I'm only indulging the convo that we started. Just a healthy discussion in my book. I don't have any issue if you don't want to discuss, and remember too I don't get frustrated with technical debates. I enjoy them. But if it is not to your fancy, I completely understand and I will just continue w/Palauan Hammer at this point. But I do ask that you indulge me and at least let me get through the premise of what started this convo...understanding the HOW and WHY of the 5 simple motions of the swing.

 

Carry on then.

[DeNinny]

Thanks scomatose! And please keep challenging if it doesn't make sense. Also I ask too that if there is some issue with your swing, a repeated error or something to that effect, then to consider maybe even that has some relation to this convo and topic, and maybe there is an explainable physics reason for it that is in conflict with the ideal physics.

[DeNinny]

The Ideal Physics of the Hips Turn

 

Goal #1 - Turn the hips in a consistent and repeatable manner that enables the golfer to return the clubhead back to the same position and along the same path on a consistent basis.

 

Goal #2 - Turn the hips to enable the fastest clubhead velocity while using the least amount of energy while also meeting Goal #1.

 

So now the question is how (and why)?

 

In order to meet Goal #1, first and foremost it is important that the hips turn on a level plane AND the center of the hips must not drift or slide too much. Let's consider what happens if not.

 

If the hips turn on a plane that is also in the process of tilting, then what happens is that the entire path of the clubhead as it comes into impact will have shifted to a different path at the least and may also have a different face angle, so changing the plane of rotation of the hips in the midst of them turning is NOT a good thing and goes in direct conflict with Goal #1. Also this is in conflict with Newton's laws of motion. The hips turning on a level plane maintains the momentum of the CG of the swing to stay on a constant plane. As soon as the hips start tilting in the midst of turning, the CG of the swing will start to move OFF plane, again this will require energy in order to maintain, and that is energy that *could* have otherwise been used for power. This will increase the potential for error and so again this is in conflict with both Goals. So ultimately the best scientific way to rotate the hips is to keep them on the same plane of rotation at which they start (and to start it on the correct plane too).

 

If the hips stay on their own plane as they turn, BUT...the center of the hips starts to drift, like it slides in any direction along the plane, then this has the POTENTIAL* of moving the center of the swing out of position and then when that happens it will be difficult to meet Goal #1. *I want to clarify though that I said POTENTIAL for a reason. Technically the hips *can* slide around a little and it is OK. Why? Because the center of the swing is up and in between the shoulder sockets and it is that point that is truly what should be in a consistent spot at impact and not necessarily the center of the hips. So to get real nitpicky I'm just saying it is ideal to keep the center of the hips in place but in reality it is OK to let them slide a little provided that a) the slide itself is a CONSISTENT action and b) the slide doesn't actually influence the position of the center of the swing.

 

Ok so by considering what happens if not, I hope I have adequately 'proven' WHY the hips must meet Goals #1 and #2 in order to have a consistent swing, so now the question becomes HOW?

 

In order for the hips to rotate in a stable and powerful manner, first and foremost, the center of the hips MUST stay in between the knees and neither hip must be allowed to drift such that the hip is directly above its respective knee and foot. It is VERY important that the relationship of the knees inside the feet AND the hips inside the knees BE MAINTAINED throughout the backswing and through impact. Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should the trail hip ever drift away from the target and 'stack' over the trail leg such that hip, knee, and foot of the trail leg is all in a vertical stack. Again, the hips turn MUST occur INSIDE THE KNEES. This is specific hips action rule #1.

 

Why is this important? It is the only way to power the turning of the hips with BOTH legs equally. The hips are turned by the piston action of both legs, so both legs MUST have and equal distance to its respective hip. The side that turns in the forward direction is supported by that upper leg extending and literally moving forward, and the side that turns in the backwards direction is supported by the opposite leg extending and literally moving backwards. Both legs are literally extending in either (and opposite) direction of the turn. Also note that the KNEES ALWAYS LEAD the direction of the hips turn. In order to literally start moving the hips in a direction you actually are moving your knees first (all controlled with your feet and the extension and contraction of your leg muscles).

 

Let's consider what happens if you DON'T keep the hips centered inside the knees and you let one hip drift over its respective foot. When this happens, that leg can no longer move the hip in any direction accept up and down. The entire leg itself becomes the pivot point of the hips instead of the center, which again adds variability and will conflict with Goal #1.

 

Ok so that is the main rule of the hips. Keep them centered between the knees. Don't EVER let either hip drift to be over the top of its respective knee in the backswing and into impact.

 

Another rule to remember is that the hips are bearing the entire weight of the swing and they will feel EVERY different centrifugal force created by the four other motions as they are turning. So it is important not to accelerate them too much too fast because that could cause disruption in any of the other motions. Also again because of that load of the entire swing is supported by the hips, it is VERY important not to over accelerate them because it actually could cause damage to your back if you accelerate them so quickly such that it pulls your back muscles too much instead of pulling the swing load around in a circle. When the hips start pulling the shoulders around, it should be done with a gradually building pull rather than an immediate one. The torso and back muscles should and will stretch as soon as the hips start turning, but it is important to just slightly stretch these muscles and not stretch them to the point of physical damage.

 

Ok so now back to the HOW on turning the hips in support of all the science above.

 

1) In the takeaway, the hips are simply going to turn on a level plane while keeping the center of them stable. In order to do this you will feel your trail hip simply move directly BEHIND you in conjunction with your trail knee moving that way and your lead knee moving forward and away from the target in support of the lead hip going forward. Also in the process you will find that both legs are also extending as the hips turn. The lead leg is extending forward and away from the target and the trail leg is extending rearward and slightly towards the target. This is because as the hips turn either forward or backwards from its respective foot, it is literally getting farther away from it and so length must be added to the legs in order to remain at the same height.

 

2) As the hips start turning backwards the rest of the actions will be happening and this will put more weight over the trail hip and leg. So as this happens the golfer will need to keep increasing the tension on his trail leg in order to support the increasing weight. Also the golfer should pay attention to keeping his hips level at the same height and also keep them inside his feet. As the load keeps increasing, the TENDENCY for the golfer will be to better support that weight with a straight up and down trail leg. So it will take more and more effort to maintain everything in the ideal as the backswing progresses.

 

3) By the time the top of the backswing is reached, the hips should only turn as much as they can comfortably turn without compromising the physics rules. This should be at approximately 45 degrees turned from square, but this doesn't have to be exact. Again what is important is that the hips are still centered between the knees at the top and that they are ready to start turning on a specific plane that doesn't change.

 

4) Now to start the downswing the hips are going to simply start rotating back the way they came, but again there is an ideal way to start this. The ideal way is to simply first start the hips turn in the downswing with bumping the lead knee back towards the target. This move is important because again the knees are the support for the hips so it is important that the knees are always leading their turn. Again, a great example of this is Snead's swing, but check out all these sequences (and I have include a video of Freddie again). Again, ALL these golfers are moving their hips and knees as per the ideal model (the DUST model!):

 

Gary Player

 

 

 

 

Sam Snead

 

 

 

 

Lee Trevino

 

 

 

 

Fred Couples

http://youtu.be/23cJUA0nLoE

 

In Freddie's sequences, watch his legs and knees and hips from all angles. You will see this trail and lead legs have to extend a little and both knees have to support his hips positions. You can see he doesn't EVER let his trail hip drift over his trail foot. Also you can see him letting his hips drift forward a little but he keeps the center of his swing ALWAYS in the same position. Also note that every one of his downswings starts with that subtle lead knee bump back to towards the target, and prior to that in the backswing he had to extend his lead leg and allow his lead knee to follow his lead hip.

[Palauan Hammer]

I'm gonna have re-read the previous posts but I'll give your checklist a go when I make swings today. I kinda do something similar to your checklist already which is my variation of the pump drill. I use a 7 lb cast iron bar that's a bit thicker than my golf grips and I work on turning my shoulders just past 90*, hands in front on chest, trail hip turned behind me without drifting over my trail foot, then I work on the transition which is started by separating my knees/squatting entire hand/elbow unit dropping down and in front of my hips then what feels like everything rotating through, lead hip rotating and going back behind me instead of just sliding toward the target, stalling, then finally rotating when my arms pull them through (old swing).

 

I know I posted this earlier in the thread, I need to shoot more recent footage. I've realized, my swing being just a little longer than in the this video is my "sweet spot". I understand in this video my club face is slightly open, even at impact. I won't worry about that, as I'll be able to square it up once a ball is there. For some reason I take the video in slo-mo but once I DL to my computer and then post it youtube it's in regular speed haha. Oh well.

 

[DeNinny]

The Ideal Physics of the Hips Turn (continued) - Advanced Moves

 

So up until this point I have hinted but haven't explained why that it is OK to have some slide of the hips. I want to be clear that the ideal is stable hips, BUT...that doesn't take into account the "physics factors" going on with the rest of the swing. As I mentioned earlier there is the foundational physics of centrifugal force at play. As the hips are turning and accelerating, the centrifugal force of the swing as the CG (ideally on that DUST plane) rotates on that diagonal flat plane is going to keep increasing, and since the goal of it is to be at a maximum PAST impact, then it stands to reason that the highest centrifugal force is going to be occurring at that point PAST impact. So ultimately what this means is that there is going to be a pulling force in the plane of rotation that points at that point PAST impact. This pulling force is going to pull the golfer forward and towards the target. And so the best way to counter this pull is to have some spine tilt such that the greatest pull is when your arms are straight. And so the only way to have straight arms is to tilt the spine and orient it at the same angle as the pulling force. And furthermore, since I stated that the center of the swing MUST remain in the same place, the ONLY way to get the spine tilt is if the hips slide forward a little bit as they rotate. And by impact they should have slid forward enough such that the spine is tilted to that full arms extension position at an angle PAST impact. The overall ideal is to get the spine tilted at that angle BEFORE, the arms get to full extension PAST impact. This way the golfer is "braced for impact". Once again, go back to Player's, Snead's, Trevino's, and Freddie's swings and you will see that ALL of them are tilted at impact and that their hips actually slid towards the target a little during the downswing. BUT...note that they still turned with their hips inside their knees all the way until impact.

 

Now having said all that, *if* the golfer already set up with secondary spine tilt, then there may not be any need for the hips to slide forward going into impact because his spine is already set at that angle.

 

Does any of this mean that the golfer must intentionally TRY to tilt his hips during the swing? HECK NO!!!. Centrifugal force is going to force that spine tilt anyway. All it means is that the golfer should FEEL like he is turning level hips and that it is OK for him NOT to have level hips at impact because he must have some spine tilt in order to best resist the centrifugal force of the swing.

 

Also lastly as the hips are turning, it is important to always recognize that centrifugal force pull and so some counterweight on the heels may be necessary. Ultimately the golfer will have to put a lot of weight on his lead heel towards the final end of the swing because that is where all the momentum of the swing ends up stopping. Once the weight of the club and arms gets back over the head at the end of the swing it will put more weight over the lead heel.

[scomac2002]

Hip turn -- check

 

Good points about getting too quick with the hips.

[DeNinny]

I'm gonna have re-read the previous posts but I'll give your checklist a go when I make swings today. I kinda do something similar to your checklist already which is my variation of the pump drill. I use a 7 lb cast iron bar that's a bit thicker than my golf grips and I work on turning my shoulders just past 90*, hands in front on chest, trail hip turned behind me without drifting over my trail foot, then I work on the transition which is started by separating my knees/squatting entire hand/elbow unit dropping down and in front of my hips then what feels like everything rotating through, lead hip rotating and going back behind me instead of just sliding toward the target, stalling, then finally rotating when my arms pull them through (old swing).

 

I know I posted this earlier in the thread, I need to shoot more recent footage. I've realized, my swing being just a little longer than in the this video is my "sweet spot". I understand in this video my club face is slightly open, even at impact. I won't worry about that, as I'll be able to square it up once a ball is there. For some reason I take the video in slo-mo but once I DL to my computer and then post it youtube it's in regular speed haha. Oh well.

 

...

 

Palanal Hamster, now that is one fine MFing swing. I'd have to see it from FO too, but at this point it is meeting EVERY single DUST model ideal. Here's just a few comments:

 

- You have absolutely nailed setting the club on the DUST plane and where to set your hands at the top. You don't quite get to parallel at the top and so your arms stopping short (like Strickers too) doesn't quite show it, but on the way down it is clear that you are swinging on the DUST plane (very much like Stricker). At the beginning of your downswing, the shaft is pointing to a point below the ball and your hands are dragging the club to that point. Once again this is the balanced plane that is ideal for swinging the CG of the swing mass. I would also add that if you were to keep extending that backswing, your hands would look more like your avatar pic and that if you were to draw a line from your hands and down through the point between your shoulder sockets and to the ground, once again it would touch the ground right below the ball, which is as per the DUST model ideal.

 

- Your 5 motions are truly simple too. Just like Couples from the top, you ever so simply drop your trail elbow towards your trail hip and then when it reaches it you simply straighten your trail arm, just like that piston action you mentioned, and simply continue to straighten it to a point just PAST impact. In the process of this elegantly simple move you are also unhinging your wrists, again on a simple hinge, back to how they were at address and ultimately you just brush the head of the club across the ground PERFECTLY. Another thing I noticed is the simple harmony between your trail arm and trail upper leg as they both approach and pass impact. Also your legs properly piston your hips back and forth. They extend and then contract in unison and also your lead knee bump and lead hip move in unison to initiate your transition. And lastly your shoulders and hips both turn on the respective level planes that were established at address. Your swing is about as efficient and simple as it gets. My only issue is that you do everything backwards. :taunt:

 

- This is not necessarily DUST model territory and rather it is personal preference, but I also like how you restrain your trail elbow from going to far behind you (a la chicken wing style) at the top. I am the same way. As much as possible, I like my trail elbow to stay more in front of my chest rather than to pull it to the side or behind me. I see that in your swing too. I call it the "waiter's position" at the top. It is like you are a waiter holding a tray of drinks with your trail arm.

 

Really nice swing. Seriously.

[scomac2002]

 

Really nice swing. Seriously.

 

Ditto, Hammer! :good:

[DeNinny]

Hip turn -- check

 

Good points about getting too quick with the hips.

 

Here's the thing about the hips, they are small radius compared to the shoulders and as such they have a ... wait for it ... lower ... M ... O ... I ... ! And because of this, they can turn VERY fast. Also your body's most powerful muscles are what rotate them too, the legs and the torso muscles. So yeah, you have to be really really careful about the rate at which you accelerate your hips. You MUST accelerate them, no doubt, but too much can be damaging.

 

Also the hips and the shoulders both don't need to be quick. In fact, I think the only quick action in all of the swing is that combined move of straightening the trail arm whilst also unhinging the wrists to as they were at address. All the other motions should be done smoothly but still with as much acceleration as possible.

[Palauan Hammer]

Thanks Ninja! 2 things, 1.) my "real" swing is a bit longer, but I'm much better at stopping my arms with my shoulder turn now. I used to let my arms run a touch before. 2.) I actually try to think of holding drinks on a tray at the top lol. Thankfully I never had a problem with my trail elbow flying or getting stuck I guess I just got lucky teaching myself. I'm humbled you think my swing is a good one, I'm hoping it produces a 73 my first round out :)

 

I have to say I'm really enjoying your breakdown of the swing and the DUST model. I'm all for learning more and more. Like I said, it will only help me understand my swing much better.

 

As to the hips, it's making sense now why for I try NOT to think of firing them. Low MOI, strong legs and core could easily get me out sync if thought 'fire the hips' at the transition. Also, the center of the swing (arms and hands) being the center of the shoulders, it only makes sense to not let the arms and hands drift too much in either direction (out in front of me, or stuck behind me) or a compensation will have to occur. Also, I'm starting to better understand how all of these things are connected together.

 

Lastly, just want to say I keep forgetting it's Thanksgiving this week, let me say a very Happy Thanksgiving to you all. Also that means I might go to my Aunts to see the family, no doubt I'll get some new swing footage both DTL and FO.

[DeNinny]

Thanks Ninja! 2 things, 1.) my "real" swing is a bit longer, but I'm much better at stopping my arms with my shoulder turn now. I used to let my arms run a touch before. 2.) I actually try to think of holding drinks on a tray at the top lol. Thankfully I never had a problem with my trail elbow flying or getting stuck I guess I just got lucky teaching myself. I'm humbled you think my swing is a good one, I'm hoping it produces a 73 my first round out :)

 

I have to say I'm really enjoying your breakdown of the swing and the DUST model. I'm all for learning more and more. Like I said, it will only help me understand my swing much better.

 

As to the hips, it's making sense now why for I try NOT to think of firing them. Low MOI, strong legs and core could easily get me out sync if thought 'fire the hips' at the transition. Also, the center of the swing (arms and hands) being the center of the shoulders, it only makes sense to not let the arms and hands drift too much in either direction (out in front of me, or stuck behind me) or a compensation will have to occur. Also, I'm starting to better understand how all of these things are connected together.

 

Lastly, just want to say I keep forgetting it's Thanksgiving this week, let me say a very Happy Thanksgiving to you all. Also that means I might go to my Aunts to see the family, no doubt I'll get some new swing footage both DTL and FO.

 

LOL that is funny about the waiter's position. Great minds think alike, no? I learned that kind of early on my swing journey, maybe about seven years ago now. It serves to help consistency too. The move is another sort of governing move, where you cannot really make your trail elbow go any more directly in front of your shoulders, and so by always trying to keep it in front of your chest you are mainlining a consistent position for it. You are basically lifting your arms as much up as possible in conjunction with the trail elbow bending. As your arms lift the club, your trail elbow can either go straight up as much as possible or it could drift to the side and behind you more, thereby pulling your lead arm more across your chest rather than diagonally up and across it. This is also what enables you to make the simple downswing move. That elegant elbow drop. If you were to chicken wing your trail elbow, then you would have to drop it AND also pull it back in front of your torso. That is a two variable move and so I say limit that trail elbow bend and raise to be as much up and down as possible. And that waiter's position is a key final position.

 

Note that you may not see what I'm saying yet. When you break down your swing per those steps that I laid out you will see. Essentially you have to learn how to perform your backswing with just your arms movement only and without any hips or shoulders turn. What you will find out when you do this is that you are lifting the club straight up with both arms and also you are bending your trail arm as much upwardly as possible. I say this because it is impossible to bend your trail elbow straight up because again that shortens the radius of one arm and not the other. So when one arm bends, the other straight arm must cross over the chest somewhat. I say it is less variable to limit how much you pull your lead arm across the chest and again raise it more so.

 

And lastly when the wrist hinge is more in line with that trail elbow bend hinge, the less variable the simultaneous unhinging of both will be. It is much less variable when hinges are unhinging in the same plane. If they didn't...wait for it...their centrifugal forces would be in conflict with each other. When in the same plane, all the centrifugal forces are synchronized.

 

LOL in summary the waiter's position has a lot of benefits. To be clear, I don't consider it a must for the DUST model. I just think it is helpful in reducing variability and making the actions simpler.

 

And I can't tell you how much it means to have you relate to what I'm explaining. And yes Happy Thanksgiving, all Confessors!

[scomac2002]

The waiter's position is a good key in the back swing for me. It allows me to complete the back swing before starting the down swing thus keeping the motions in proper sequence and not getting too quick with the hips as per the previous discussion.

[DeNinny]

The waiter's position is a good key in the back swing for me. It allows me to complete the back swing before starting the down swing thus keeping the motions in proper sequence and not getting too quick with the hips as per the previous discussion.

 

Having a consistent reference point at various points in the swing is in direct support of Goal #1. As long as the position itself is in support of the ideal physics, then yes it is good to ingrain a specific feel that establishes consistency in getting to it and setting it. Address position is one of those points and also the top of the backswing is another. Both of these positions are when the 5 motions are static and/or changing directions, and so being consistent with them is a prerequisite to performing the actions consistently. If we started from a different position every time, it would be more difficult to consistently repeat.

[DeNinny]

The Ideal Physics of the Shoulders Turn

 

Background Physics & Bio Mechanics

 

The shoulders are a key focal point in the swing. There are a lot of different physics to take into account because there are two hinge points at them. One hinge is their center about which they rotate which specifically is the point directly between the sockets and on the spine. This is the core center of all rotations in the swing. It is the point around which the CG of the swing mass rotates and thus is the very center of the DUST plane. The other hinge is the combined hinge of the arms at the shoulder sockets. This is the hinge that allows the arms to raise and lower, and since the arms are joined at the hands and also since the lead arm is always virtually straight, the two shoulder sockets can be treated as one single hinge. And because of both these hinges is where the physics can get complicated. As each hinge rotates, it will put its own centrifugal force on the CG of the swing mass and in its own direction which will pull on the center of the swing in multiple dynamically changing directions. Hence the potential for HIGH VARIABILITY. And it is somewhat ironic that this point is also the point that you want the LEAST VARIABILITY (as per Goal #1). So basically a lot can go wrong at the shoulders and center of the swing.

 

As mentioned, the shoulders contain the center of the swing and moving the center has a direct effect on the position of the clubhead, and so it is VERY important, again as per meeting Goal #1, that the center of the swing remain in the same position throughout the swing or at the very least, if it must move at all, it moves short distances and in a consistent and repeatable manner.

 

From a biomechanics perspective, the shoulders are tied to the hips. One could liken the relationship like having a taut bungee cord connecting each shoulder to its respective hip. The natural state of the two is to have them both in the square address position. And then if you start changing this relationship by rotating them to be at different angles with each other, those bungee cords, not unlike your torso muscles, will start to stretch and pull the shoulders to be square with the hips and vice versa. So because of this there is a relationship between their two movements. And also because the hips are the leverage point for the shoulders, the shoulders are more at the mercy of the hips moving than the other way around. Where the hips go, the shoulders will be pulled to follow.

 

The Goals

 

Goal #1 - Turn the shoulders in a consistent and repeatable manner such that the clubhead and clubface return to the same position at impact repeatedly.

 

Goal #2 - While still meeting Goal #1, turn the shoulders with as much acceleration as possible in order to maximize clubhead velocity at impact.

 

The Basic Moves

 

The plane of rotation of the shoulders ideally should always be perpendicular to the spine. This is regardless of whether or not the line of the shoulders is perpendicular to the spine. At address, the lead shoulder will be higher than the trail shoulder and ideally it is important to maintain this relative angle even during the rotation. This is just to clarify what rotating on a level plane means.

 

So then the HOW sequence of the ideal shoulders turn from address is the following:

 

1) Initially start to rotate the shoulders on a level plane in sync with the hips at the start of the takeaway. It is important to maintain the position of the swing center as this happens.

 

2) Keep rotating the shoulders on the same level plane while also keeping the spine orientation the same. They will rotate farther than the hips and basically will be at just about double the angle that the hips are turned from address. As the rotation continues, the trail side will progressively start bearing the weight of the swing more and more as the CG of it moves to that side. Because of this the golfer will need to put more effort into maintaining the spine angle and center of swing position as the shoulders turn more and more.

 

3) The shoulders should stop turning at about 90 degrees from address but it could be less based on the flexibility of the golfer. Again, its angle from address is going to be about double the angle of the hips. Basically the golfer should stop the shoulders turn when the torso muscles on the lead side are stretched as much as possible without being too uncomfortable for the golfer. Also it is important to NOT try and force separation between the hips and shoulders. The torso muscles on the lead side should naturally stretch and their limit of comfort is what sets the maximum angle between the hips and shoulders.

 

4) At the transition the shoulders should ideally start turning based only on the hips pulling their interconnecting torso muscles which in turn will start pulling on the shoulders. At the instant of transition the shoulders should ideally go relaxed in order to allow the hips to start pulling them naturally and only just AFTER the hips start turning in the downswing should the torso muscles actually start contracting in order to accelerate the shoulders faster than the hips turning.

 

5) In the down swing again the shoulders should just stay turning on that level plane as they initially turn in sync with the hips, but eventually start accelerating faster. The whole idea for meeting Goal #2 is for the shoulders to already be rotating as fast as possible without any effort based on the hips turn only. Then to add to this rotational motion the lead side torso muscles power the shoulders to finally catch up with them at that point PAST impact. Again the rotational velocity and acceleration of the shoulders will be about double that of the hips. Also as the downswing progresses, centrifugal force is going to pull more and more on the center of the swing and so it is important that the feet provide some counterbalance actions to help the center of the swing stay in a stable place.

 

6) At impact the shoulders should be slightly open relative to address but they will not have yet caught the hips. At impact they simply continue their continuously accelerating turn on a level plane perpendicular to the spine angle.

 

Advanced Moves

 

As mentioned earlier with the hips, that point past impact is going to be the point of maximum centrifugal force on the center of the swing and so it is important for the golfer to be in the best position as possible to support the pull of the clubhead under centrifugal force. And so even though the basic moves are to turn the shoulders on a level plane perpendicular to the spine angle, in reality the golfer will have either preset with spine tilt or he will have it by the time of impact as his hips will have drifted forward a little in preparation for it. His shoulders will (and must) have some tilt at impact.

[scomac2002]

Shoulder turn mechanics; check.

 

Two to one ratio; check.

 

Shoulder sockets amount to a single hinge -- I'll have to think about that because the lead arm doesn't always remain straight, it folds on the follow through, but conceptually, I think I follow you.

[DeNinny]

Shoulder turn mechanics; check.

 

Two to one ratio; check.

 

Shoulder sockets amount to a single hinge -- I'll have to think about that because the lead arm doesn't always remain straight, it folds on the follow through, but conceptually, I think I follow you.

 

The theory only falls apart when both arms simultaneously bend. As long as at least one arm is straight, the theory holds. Most of the finish should ideally be with the trail arm straight in mirror symmetry with the backswing to...wait for it...continue moving the swing CG on that DUST plane. And the instant both arms bend, the DUST model is in the dust...

[mdgboxx]

Shoulder turn mechanics; check.

 

Two to one ratio; check.

 

Shoulder sockets amount to a single hinge -- I'll have to think about that because the lead arm doesn't always remain straight, it folds on the follow through, but conceptually, I think I follow you.

 

The theory only falls apart when both arms simultaneously bend. As long as at least one arm is straight, the theory holds. Most of the finish should ideally be with the trail arm straight in mirror symmetry with the backswing to...wait for it...continue moving the swing CG on that DUST plane. And the instant both arms bend, the DUST model is in the dust...

 

Key words here are **follow through**. At that point, the ball is far gone. The lead arm has to stay as straight as possible on the Back Swing.

[DeNinny]

So scomac here is some data of (I think) Rory's driver swing. From takeaway to finish, you can see the respective velocities of various elements of the swing. And since we are talking hips and shoulders, just look at the red and green lines. Observe these trends from the top of the downswing at about 0.85 seconds to impact at about 1.1. The shoulders velocity (green) is just over double that of the hips velocity (red). The shoulders turn is getting the additive effect of the hips turn. Then going into impact you see both of them start slowing down. This is because the clubhead is extending away from the body and thus their rotational velocities will slow down because of the increased swing MOI as the clubhead extends into impact. Also the hips will slow down earlier than the shoulders because they will have already passed address position and as soon as that happens they will start slowing down due to the muscles that pull in the opposite direction starting to get stretched.

 

 

[Palauan Hammer]

Interesting stuff, I've been kinda curious to get on a pressure plate or put on a "k" vest (?) to see my weight shift and kinematic sequence, combine that with Trackman and I could walk away from that session with a TON a data that I could analyze and make small adjustments. I also think I would be cool to make the adjustments there so I can confirm the proper feel to achieve the proper numbers, of course never compromising solid contact and the ball flight I'm looking for.

 

 

Ninja, so I'm always lurking around on WRX, I've been interested in that new Callaway Driver coming out, the "Epic" lol. Name aside.....they're incorporating a "tech" callled JailBreak. It's 2 rods that are placed behind the face framing the sweetspot that connect the sole to the crown. I think the idea (I think) is to increase the rigidity of the clubhead, and potentially transferring more energy into the golf ball. Just wondered if you had wondered into that thread and your thoughts on the design. I have no plans to buy another driver, and there is ALWAYS hype with anything new.

[DeNinny]

LOL put out an APB, Palofmine Hammerstheball's ball is on the lam. Jailbreak. More like jokebreak.

[DeNinny]

The Ideal Physics of the Arms Raise and Drop

 

Background Physics and Biomechanics

 

The arms are hinged at the shoulder sockets and then joined at the hands and so when the arms are fully straight or rather they are locked in a certain position, they can only move in an up and down arc along that hinge. With the hands connected, the ONLY way to get the arms to move sideways is to bend one of the elbows and move that elbow to the side as you bend it. This action will pull the other straight arm across the body instead of just up and down in front of it. This is key physics to note because HOW the golfer bends his trail elbow and also in what direction he moves it in relation to the front of his chest will influence the position of the clubhead as he takes his backswing. The trail elbow bend can be a complicating variable in the swing and it is important to note this has you raise your arms in the backswing and lower them in the downswing.

 

This up and down motion of the arms is what gives the swing the more diagonal arcing path. The shoulders and the hips turns are providing the more flat or merry-go-round motion, whereas the arms are providing the vertical or Ferris wheel motion. As the arms move down from the top, the shoulders and the hips rotate on a relatively flat plane and this combined set of motions is what gives the club the diagonal rotational plane. So essentially the drop of the arms is simply done in sync with the rotation of the shoulders and ideally both actions are coordinated such that the CG of the swing rotates around the golfer on that diagonal DUST plane.

 

The Goals

 

Goal #1 - Move the arms up and down during the swing in coordination with the shoulders turn such that it returns the clubface to a consistent path and face angle going into impact.

 

Goal #2 - While still meeting Goal #1, accelerate the arms drop as much as possible in order to generate more clubhead velocity.

 

The Basic Moves

 

1) As the takeaway starts and after about the first six inches to a foot, the arms are going to start raising as the shoulders turn the club back. All the arms need to do, while IGNORING the fact that the trail arm is actually going to pull the lead arm more across the chest, is raise straight up in front of the chest. The idea is to raise the arms AS IF they were both straight in front of the body. The reality is that the trail arm bending will not allow the lead arm to go straight up, but the action should feel like the arms are raising straight up in front of the body.

 

2) As the backswing progresses, the arms simply need to raise enough to set the club on the DUST plane at the top, which again means that if you drew a line through the hands and down through the center of the swing an continue the line, it would pass just below the ball about at the heel of the club or within a just few inches of the ball. So again during the backswing and at an even pace, the arms are simply raising the club however much is needed in order set it on that DUST plane at the top. This is pretty much the same thing as setting the hands and club on Hogan's plane of glass. Once the golfer learns where that DUST plane is for HIS setup at address (it will depend on how far away he puts the ball in relation to the center of the swing), then over time he learns at what rate to raise the arms in conjunction with his shoulders turn.

 

3) At the top and again at the instant of transition, the arms should merely relax, just like the shoulders, and only as the shoulders turn should the arms start to drop in sync with it. The relaxation is important to allow the hips to pull on the shoulders in a relaxed state. The relaxed state of the arms is important in ensuring the swing CG starts rotating on the DUST plane. If the arms were tense at transition, they could easily pull the CG off that DUST plane. What ensures the swing CG, once the hands properly set the club at the top, to stay on the DUST plane is ... wait for it ... centrifugal force and so it is the BEST thing for consistency (as per Goal #1) to start the transition with the shoulders and arms RELAXED. If they tense up immediately at the top, the swing is DOOMED.

 

4) Once the shoulders start to turn, then the arms start to drop and again they simply drop at the rate that keeps the swing CG on that DUST plane and centrifugal force is there to HELP keep it on plane and also gravity is there to help accelerate the arms. *If* the golfer is going to add his own muscle power in dropping the arms, it is imperative that the muscle power be applied in a straight line direction in conjunction with the natural path of the drop. The overall key to meeting Goal #1 is a straight line dropping action. The arms as a unit should simply hinge up and down at the shoulders and this is the simplest of all actions, so the arms actions should be as simple as that. Again this is ignoring the effect of the trail elbow.

 

5) The arms are going to continue to drop even as the trail arm straightens. As this happens, the lead arm will start to pivot 90 degrees in addition to continuing to drop. This will change the feel of the swing but still the action of the arms (as a single hinged unit) from the top and into impact is noting but a downward motion along a straight path or rather straight arc.

 

Advanced Moves

 

(none)

[Palauan Hammer]

I like it Ninja, good stuff Brosef!

 

2 things that you've pointed out in the transition of the movements of both shoulders and arms to the downswing, keeping them relaxed! That right there is something I always work on, or go to when I make a poor swing. That hit impulse can sneak up on me these days being almost 3 years removed from the course. I find the best results thinking about them not doing anything at all. Like I'm gonna leave them behind because I know I'll stomp on the gas once the shoulders rotate AFTER the hips, then my arms will fire as a reaction anyway. So, it's all in the hips (feet and knees) baby.

 

Again, I agree with everything your saying, and if I had any issue I would ask you about it.

 

 

LOL Jailbroke haha :D

[DeNinny]

I forgot to mention, the other overall idea with the arms drop and the hands set on the DUST plane is to initially drag the hands around the swing center on that DUST plane and have the club drag behind the hands. With the club set close to the body initially, the golfer can generate a lot of rotational velocity this way, and so the arms drop again is in support of this ideal.

[DeNinny]

I like it Ninja, good stuff Brosef!

 

2 things that you've pointed out in the transition of the movements of both shoulders and arms to the downswing, keeping them relaxed! That right there is something I always work on, or go to when I make a poor swing. That hit impulse can sneak up on me these days being almost 3 years removed from the course. I find the best results thinking about them not doing anything at all. Like I'm gonna leave them behind because I know I'll stomp on the gas once the shoulders rotate AFTER the hips, then my arms will fire as a reaction anyway. So, it's all in the hips (feet and knees) baby.

 

Again, I agree with everything your saying, and if I had any issue I would ask you about it.

 

 

LOL Jailbroke haha :D

 

LOL my man how are them high beams working out for you in your own swing cave now? I'm hoping everything I'm explaining ends up being the most underwhelming golf epiphany that you ever had. I'm doing nothing but explaining the physics of the swing. And you already have a good one so I don't expect anything I say to contradict anything you already do.

 

And by the way, I figured out the flaw with trying to muscle your swing with your arms: No matter how strong you are, your own arms strength pales in comparison to centrifugal force. And again, the more tense your arms, the more that may veer the swing CG off the DUST plane, so it is better to have the arms relaxed and then just keep building muscle power gradually on top of it but ONLY to assist with power and not outright control the swing path.

 

And I found the most beautiful example of low MOI swing to high MOI swing...

 

 

Kostis is so focused on the lag Jimbo creates in his analysis, but I say check out how close he tucks the clubhead to his body. That is just about as low of an MOI that you can create and while also keeping the club on the DUST plane. And guess what, with that low MOI, Jimbo can turn that skinny Word not allowed frame of his with tremendous torque and accelerate quickly. Then just like with ALL good swings, he gets to that tilted spine position as he starts straightening his trail arm and then before it fully straightens he reaches impact. And then his trail arm doesn't fully straighten until his shoulders are square with his hips well PAST impact. Again, he has to be in the process of straightening his trail arm as he comes into impact. The clubhead has to be continually moving farther away from the golfer in order to take advantage of centrifugal force. And again this tremendous power was all generated from him turning with that low MOI early in the downswing as fast and as stable as possible.

[Palauan Hammer]

That's a ridiculous golf swing LOL!! The shaft almost touches his shoulder as he starts unwinding into the downswing, plus that some killer wrist action too. Guy is a freak.

 

BTW the swing cave is getting brighter, of course I'll have to re-read some of your posts. But everything your saying makes sense to me.

[scomac2002]

Agree that the arm drop from the top is the key. The more you try to aid it the more OTT you will become and this is something I struggle with -- keeping the trail elbow more or less hitched to the trail hip. The best I could come up with was the key of pulling the handle down towards the ball on the diagonal and letting everything unhinge from there. Some days this mental key is not necessary and everything works as per your description, other days, not so much. Oh the things we do to trick ourselves! ;)

[DeNinny]

Agree that the arm drop from the top is the key. The more you try to aid it the more OTT you will become and this is something I struggle with -- keeping the trail elbow more or less hitched to the trail hip. The best I could come up with was the key of pulling the handle down towards the ball on the diagonal and letting everything unhinge from there. Some days this mental key is not necessary and everything works as per your description, other days, not so much. Oh the things we do to trick ourselves! ;)

 

Also tied to the OTT move is the tendency to cast the club which essentially is the loss of lag by early straightening of the trail arm and/or by unhinging the wrists. When the golfer does this too early, which is to say he does it WITHOUT the added help from centrifugal force and gravity, the club weight gets farther away from the body too soon and ultimately that increases the swing MOI. The swing slows down early and the golfer has LESS power. So arms tension is a double whammy by conflicting with both Goals #1 and #2. You lose clubhead speed AND swing path consistency.

 

And to get nitpicky, it would be more ideal for you initially (early in the downswing) to drag the handle to a point just BELOW the ball. To drag the handle at the ball is establishing a swing CG plane that will be slightly flatter than the ideal DUST plane. Remember how the CG of the swing has to stay balanced on the plane as the trail arm straightens. The clubhead weight goes above the plane of the CG and the arms and handle go below it as the trail arm straightens. And so initially it is more ideal to drag that handle to a point slightly below the ball. It's a subtle difference from what you are doing, but technically it is more accurate and you *may* find it makes your swing feel even just a little smoother and more efficient.

 

But yes, that feeling of pulling (I say dragging) the handle diagonally downward is inline with the DUST theory to pull the weight of the club directly behind the hands path during the initial downswing.

[DeNinny]

That's a ridiculous golf swing LOL!! The shaft almost touches his shoulder as he starts unwinding into the downswing, plus that some killer wrist action too. Guy is a freak.

 

BTW the swing cave is getting brighter, of course I'll have to re-read some of your posts. But everything your saying makes sense to me.

 

I want your 100% alignment on this. If there is anything that I have posted that doesn't make sense, no matter how trivial, or is in conflict with your own swing, I want to know and also try to resolve with you.

 

It may seem overly complicated, but once you see how all the intricacy of those 5 simple action moves is properly coordinated in order to meet Goals #1 and #2, it will all make simplistic sense. And to me, an engiNERD, I see a harmonious beauty in the swing now. A good swing is now a work of art to me. And all good swings are following the DUST model. It doesn't matter if the swing is like that of Snead, Stricker, Sadlowski, Couples, or even Furyk. The DUST model is observed in ALL of them. That's the beauty of it. As mentioned, it is nothing but the ideal physics of the golf swing. ANY deviation from it simply introduces potential for the swing to lose either power or accuracy.

[DeNinny]

BTW Palanksgiving Hamkey, note how Sadlowski creates that crazy wrist hinge. It is only possible when he CUPs his lead wrist. With a flat (or bowed) lead wrist like yours is (per your avatar), it is virtually impossible to create that amount of hinge. But if you hinge with that lead wrist cup, then it becomes easy peasy to hinge to an angle << 90 degrees like that. I'm getting ahead of myself, but I wanted to point out the physics of how he can create that much hinge. Anyone can do it and it is not that 'freaky'.

[Palauan Hammer]

Yeah, my lead wrist has always been flat. I see what you mean by cupping the lead wrist to increase the angle, I tried it, but it feels way too weird for me LOL.

 

Happy Thanksgiving to you all, I enjoyed my Thanksgiving yesterday, I decided to just eat like a normal person and have a "cheat day" it was AWESOME.