Hip and shoulder sequencing in the downswing

[JeffMann]

I think that Slicefixer's "above view" swing video of his student provides tremendous insights into "correct" hip-shoulder sequencing in the downswing.

 

Here is a series of capture images from that video.

 

 

Image 1 shows the golfer at the end-backswing position. I placed two short green lines alongside the outer border of his left and right pelvis. I placed a blue line over the tush line. The yellow line shows the degree of pelvic turn in the backswing, which is close to 45 degrees. The red line shows the degree of shoulder rotation in the backswing, which is close to 90 degrees.

 

Image 2 - early downswing. Hip squaring period.

 

Note that the downswing starts with the pelvis sliding slightly to the left while the pelvis rotates to square. Note, however, that the right buttocks remains on the tush line in the early downswing. Note that the hip squaring action occurs while the shoulders rotate, but the shoulders are far behind the hips despite a significant degree of shoulder rotation.

 

Image 3 - Mid-downswing

 

Note that the pelvic continues to slide a little more left laterally, and that the left buttocks is starting to be pulled back to the tush line (left hip clearing action) as the pelvis starts to open up. The shoulders continue to rotate, and the angle between the pelvic turn angle and shoulder turn angle is not significantly decreasing compared to image 2.

 

Image 4 - later downswing

 

Note that the pelvis slide is coming to an end, and that the pelvis is now significantly open to the target with the left buttock on the tush line. The right pelvis is now leaving the tush line as it rotates forward. It is at this point that the right heel should be lifting up. Note that although the hips are open to the target, that the shoulders are still closed to the target - despite a significant reduction in the pelvis-shoulder turn angle difference (from the start position). In other words, one doesn't actively hold the shoulders back to get to this point - the shoulders simply have not caught up to the hips because both are actively rotating.

 

Image 5 - impact. Note that the hips are well open, and the shoulders slightly open at impact. The left buttocks is on the tush line. Note the total amount the pelvis (and torso) has slid left-laterally throughout the entire downswing (from image 1 to image 5).

 

From my perspective, my greatest insight derived from this sequence, is the realisation that the shoulders turn a lot at the very start of the downswing (image 2). Therefore, the idea that the downswing starts with a lower body intiating move is incorrect. The downswing starts with both the hips and shoulders moving. In fact, the shoulders turn more than the hips at the very start of the downswing - in terms of the absolute degree of angular change per unit time.

 

Jeff.

[Lake]

Dr. Jeff,


Now come-up with something original to call the positions you are analyzing. The p's are taken

[dana dahlquist]

Nice Avatar!

[Lake]

Gracias...a wise Sensei showed me the ways of the force

[hoganfan924]

Jeff,

Now make sure you ask Slicefixer really nicely, permission to use this material on your website.

Some things to keep in mind:

Matt (golfer in this sequence) has worked with Slicefixer since he was a beginner at 13 years of age. His swing perfectly exemplifies exactly what slicefixer believes philosophically about the best way (but not the only way) to swing a golf club and what Slice teaches every day to dozens of others. Therefore, your "revelations," aren't to him or anyone whom he instructs or probably anyone else who has decent knowledge of the mechanics of this style of swing (it's one reason while he installed that overhead camera to begin with!)

Since the sequence exemplifies what Slice teaches, realize that other golfers applying different methods will look considerably different.

Now that you understand this sequence better, and consequently what Slicefixer teaches, perhaps you'll understand some of his (and my) posts better. For example, I've never cared for the use of the terms "hip squaring movement" that you use a lot. Why? Because it will imply to many, that this is a position to move [b]into[/b], rather than move [b]through[/b]. Should be clear from the videos he posted (and his numerous posts) that Slice doesn't teach a "hip squaring" or "squat down" or "hip slow down," etc. move. but rather that the hips keep rotating from the top of the backswing to the follow-through and that they "lead the parade" well into the follow-through (just as Mr. Hogan prescribed in 5 lessons). Since other instructors [b][i]do[/i][/b] teach a "squat down," "hip slow down" etc. move (before impact), many will assume that's what you are recommending when using the terms "hip squaring move." Many players who've posted on this forum requesting help have their shoulders catch up to their hips by impact or stall their hip rotation in the mid downswing and the last thing they need is to have that approach reinforced by a poor choice of terms if that isn't your intent (which I don't believe it is).

When Slicefixer talks about not feeling any lateral motion and that it "just happens" as a consequence of the set-up and rotation that he teaches, he is 100% spot-on. Very easy to demonstrate to anyone in slow motion (as Slice does with all of his students and has explained on this forum before). You can easily feel the weight transfer with only feeling that you are rotating about your lower spine (assuming the proper set-up, body angles). Study the other sequences Slice posted on youtube and you'll see this. This is why his players have stated on this forum that "It just feels like a turn back and a turn through." I can vouch for how beautifully it works and how simple this makes the swing.

I'm fortunate enough to have spent some time with Slicefixer since May trying to develop a deeper understanding of what he teaches and incorporating it into my own game as well as to help a few others out. I'm not there yet with my own game, but I'm much better than when I first arrived at his place. I was amazed in my two visits to Texarkana, how many outstanding golf swings I was able to witness in such a small metro area.

Slicefixer has been extremely generous in laying out his golf swing philosophy on this forum (far more than any other instructor here) and has now posted footage of a few of his players to demonstrate what he teaches. Just shows me how passionate he is about helping all golfers improve (even you, JeffMann!)

[UTGolf73]

Where is Slicefixer located?

[ej002]

Texarkana, Arkansas - borders Texas.

[ej002]

These pictures lead to two questions that I have:

1. I have read a numerous times that the pivot is lead by the "core" and not the hips. But Hoganfan you said that the hips "lead the parade"... but I do see what Jeffman is saying here, that it appears that the shoulders (red line) closed the gap with the hips (yellow line) in the transition (from frame 1 to frame 2). So I guess I am confused on how this occurs, I would have guessed that the gap between the red and yellow lines would remain from the top of the swing to impact. Or is this what "just happens?"


2. At impact I would have also guessed that the shoulder would be more open. Or is Jeffman's line a little off in that frame? It appears to be only a few degrees open, I was expecting 30ish.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='ej002' post='804621' date='Nov 27 2007, 08:06 PM']These pictures lead to two questions that I have:

1. I have read a numerous times that the pivot is lead by the "core" and not the hips. But Hoganfan you said that the hips "lead the parade"... but I do see what Jeffman is saying here, that it appears that the shoulders (red line) closed the gap with the hips (yellow line) in the transition (from frame 1 to frame 2). So I guess I am confused on how this occurs, I would have guessed that the gap between the red and yellow lines would remain from the top of the swing to impact. Or is this what "just happens?"


2. At impact I would have also guessed that the shoulder would be more open. Or is Jeffman's line a little off in that frame? It appears to be only a few degrees open, I was expecting 30ish.[/quote]

I'll leave it to Slicefixer to provide the definitive answer, but I do see several things in the analysis that Jeffmann captured that I believe can be misleading:

1. The 1st frame appears to me to be at least one frame into the downswing and not the actual top of backswing position. The degree of separation of the 2 clubshafts in the interlaced frames in part, lead me to that conclusion. Remember that youtube uses file compression, then Jeffmann had to run it through another file conversion program to save it and analyze it and frames can get dropped in that process. Indeed, I just checked youtube and was able to freezeframe it where the shaft is well inside the upper right corner of the hitting mat and does not exhibit a double image. In that view, the hips appear to me to be about 40 deg. open
2. The line he has drawn of the shoulders in the 1st frame appears to me to be more closed than what it really is. Maybe by as much as 15 deg. But it is difficult to tell due to the poor quality of the video frame. Notice how far that line is relative to the front of the right shoulder compared to the other frames.
3. Frame 3 has the hip line more closed than what it really is.

If I'm correct, the interpretation of what is happening there would be a little different than what Jeffmann is stating. Just look at the [b]included angle [/b]of the hip and shoulder lines that Jeffmann has drawn in each frame. See how that angle decreases dramatically from frame 1 to frame 2 then increases again from frame 2 to 3 and maintains itself (roughly) to frame 5? I guarantee you that not what is really happening. So when I say the "hips lead the parade" I think that is supported by the video evidence. See how the hips are leading the shoulders by about the same amount from frames 3 - 5? That's what I'm talking about. The hips are much more open than the shoulders at impact, and will remain ahead of the shoulders well into the follow through.

Relative to shoulder openness at impact, the player is not square to the camera frame. Compare to the streak of the ball. Without being able to measure, I'd estimate the shoulders are 10-15 deg. open at impact to the target line (and opening very rapidly).

Just my opinions. Would be much more reliable an analysis had it been conducted by Slicefixer using the original source file.

[ej002]

[quote name='hoganfan924' post='804676' date='Nov 27 2007, 09:48 PM'][quote name='ej002' post='804621' date='Nov 27 2007, 08:06 PM']These pictures lead to two questions that I have:

1. I have read a numerous times that the pivot is lead by the "core" and not the hips. But Hoganfan you said that the hips "lead the parade"... but I do see what Jeffman is saying here, that it appears that the shoulders (red line) closed the gap with the hips (yellow line) in the transition (from frame 1 to frame 2). So I guess I am confused on how this occurs, I would have guessed that the gap between the red and yellow lines would remain from the top of the swing to impact. Or is this what "just happens?"


2. At impact I would have also guessed that the shoulder would be more open. Or is Jeffman's line a little off in that frame? It appears to be only a few degrees open, I was expecting 30ish.[/quote]

I'll leave it to Slicefixer to provide the definitive answer, but I do see several things in the analysis that Jeffmann captured that I believe can be misleading:

1. The 1st frame appears to me to be at least one frame into the downswing and not the actual top of backswing position. The degree of separation of the 2 clubshafts in the interlaced frames in part, lead me to that conclusion. Remember that youtube uses file compression, then Jeffmann had to run it through another file conversion program to save it and analyze it and frames can get dropped in that process.
2. The line he has drawn of the shoulders in the 1st frame appears to me to be more closed than what it really is. Maybe by as much as 15 deg. But it is difficult to tell due to the poor quality of the video frame. Notice how far that line is relative to the front of the right shoulder compared to the other frames.
3. Frame 3 has the hip line more closed than what it really is.

If I'm correct, the interpretation of what is happening there would be a little different than what Jeffmann is stating. Just look at the [b]included angle [/b]of the hip and shoulder lines that Jeffmann has drawn in each frame. See how that angle decreases dramatically from frame 1 to frame 2 then increases again from frame 2 to 3 and maintains itself (roughly) to frame 5? I guarantee you that not what is really happening. So when I say the "hips lead the parade" I think that is supported by the video evidence. See how the hips are leading the shoulders by about the same amount from frames 3 - 5? That's what I'm talking about. The hips are much more open than the shoulders at impact, and will remain ahead of the shoulders well into the follow through.

Relative to shoulder openness at impact, the player is not square to the camera frame. Compare to the streak of the ball. Without being able to measure, I'd estimate the shoulders are 10-15 deg. open at impact to the target line (and opening very rapidly).

Just my opinions. Would be much more reliable an analysis had it been conducted by Slicefixer using the original source file.
[/quote]


I totatly understand your point that the hips are always leading. I just did not understand the changes in angles that you described (and I also noticed), which are changes between Jeffman's lines. Like you said, and I agree - I would have expected the angles to stay the same as it appears they do in 3-5. I was just confused about 1-2. But it is your belief that frame 1's lines are off, and therefore, there should not be such a large jump between the angles. To me, your explaination makes more sense than Jeffman's assertion that the shoulders speed up.

[hoganfan924]

Just saying that the lines drawn (not the actual pelvis and shoulder positions), particularly in frames 1 and 2, are misleading and that as I see it, the relationship between pelvis and shoulder angle changes very little from the top of the backswing to the follow through position (one or two frames past what Jeff has captured). Therefore, much of the torque in the midsection/core is maintained through impact.

In other words, Matt develops and retains what I like to call "dynamic X-factor" in his downswing. He didn't achieve static X-factor at the top of his backswing by restricting pelvic rotation only to lose it by the time he got to impact, therefore his downswing pelvic pivot is still supplying power at impact, i.e. it is still helping to accelerate his shoulders and arms. A "body driven" rotary swing instead of a "hands and arms" driven swing of the style that a Jim Flick would advocate.

[ej002]

[quote name='hoganfan924' post='804733' date='Nov 27 2007, 10:17 PM']Just saying that the lines drawn (not the actual pelvis and shoulder positions), particularly in frames 1 and 2, are misleading and that as I see it, the relationship between pelvis and shoulder angle changes very little from the top of the backswing to the follow through position (one or two frames past what Jeff has captured). Therefore, much of the torque in the midsection/core is maintained through impact.

In other words, Matt develops and retains what I like to call "dynamic X-factor" in his downswing. He didn't achieve static X-factor at the top of his backswing by restricting pelvic rotation only to lose it by the time he got to impact, therefore his downswing pelvic pivot is still supplying power at impact, i.e. it is still helping to accelerate his shoulders and arms. A "body driven" rotary swing instead of a "hands and arms" driven swing of the style that a Jim Flick would advocate.[/quote]



Thanks, we are definately on the same page.

[slicefixer]

[quote name='ej002' post='804621' date='Nov 27 2007, 09:06 PM']These pictures lead to two questions that I have:

1. I have read a numerous times that the pivot is lead by the "core" and not the hips. But Hoganfan you said that the hips "lead the parade"... but I do see what Jeffman is saying here, that it appears that the shoulders (red line) closed the gap with the hips (yellow line) in the transition (from frame 1 to frame 2). So I guess I am confused on how this occurs, I would have guessed that the gap between the red and yellow lines would remain from the top of the swing to impact. Or is this what "just happens?"



EJ, as I posted in response to Dr.Mann a night or two ago......."the HIPS CANNOT move by themselves as they are but a coupla' joints......they MUST be "influenced" by something to move......and it's either going to be the lower core/upper thigh are or some combo of knees/legs/lower legs (that's why I'm SOOOO careful when I reference "the hips"...both here and when I'm teaching....hips mean different things to different people )........

IF you watch the footwork of great ballstrikers the VAST majority will have relatively "quiet feet" and it's because the "mid-section" (upper thighs/lower trunk) is much more responsible for leading the parade in the transition downswing.......all you have to do is go look at Tiger's footwork in 01' with an IRON and then check it out now.....you'll note a MUCH quieter "transition" as he's greatly improved his backswing pivot which has eliminated the need for a bunch of lateral knee/leg "drive".......

As a result you'll note his right foot ROLL to the instep as his weight TRANSFERS and then the right heel will be PULLED OFF OF THE GROUND by the core unwinding around his left pivot point/left leg (PERFECT pivot yields PERFECT footwork.....quiet feet" .......he's not "jumpy" anymore, at least with the irons........still can get a bit "jumpy" (which I HATE) with the driver when he tries to hook it or really blast it.......but even that's getting a LOT better and could be seen in footage taken at Southern Hills...........(probably because Southern Hills isn't a "blasters" golf course......lots of doglegs/slopes to contend with and you ain't gonna' play it too well simply blastin' away......gotta' drive it ACCURATE at Southern Hillls)


2. At impact I would have also guessed that the shoulder would be more open. Or is Jeffman's line a little off in that frame? It appears to be only a few degrees open, I was expecting 30ish.[/quote]


HOW open isn't what matters, it's how far the shoulders have traveled from the top of the backswing.........IF you can turn 110 - 120 degrees "closed" in the backswing as Matt can and does then he's doing great to get back to 10 degrees +/- by impact........

Think about this.......

A player, say Tom Kite, has rotated his shoulder to a point that's 89 percent CLOSED to the target line at the top and then in his downswing his chest/shoulders have rotated to a point 30 degrees OPEN at impact........he's rotated his core 119 degrees from the top to impact....

Matthew is able to wind up his shoulder/core to a point that's 120 degrees closed to the target line at the top and is 14 degrees open at impact.........Matt's rotated 134 degrees from top to impact......

So who's actually "unwound more?" "created more "room" to create core speed?"

The answer is obvious and that's why Matthew's shoulders aren't all that open at impact. Not to pat myself on the back, but I don't think I've ever heard another teacher reference this before in exactly the same "vein." (McClean did/does in his "X Factor," but not in the same manner or for the same reasons/reasoning and I don't agree with restricting the hips anyway.....ONLY in "special cases")......... I'm sure many realized this and mentioned it, but, I just haven't read or heard it, but, IMOP it's a big deal........

Anyway, that's why I don't get all caught up in "how open/closed a players shoulders are relative to the target line, but, rather are they UNWINDING and ACCELERATING THROUGH IMPACT AND INTO THE THROUGHSWING/FINISH.......

I'm actually am MUCH more concerned with getting a player as "wound up" as they possibly can WITHOUT "over-turning"/"reversing".......THAT is MUCH more important IMOP than how open/closed a players shoulders are at impact.......a players shoulders are "going to be where they are at impact," but, what matters is where they were at the top and WHAT are they doing in the downswing........(that's why I installed the roof cam as IMOP it's quite possibly the MOST important angle........damn sure can show a player "things" that aren't possible from any other angle.......)

BTW, I won't bother repeating what HF just posted as I could never post it as "eloquently" as it would be in "Redneck gibberish" instead of proper engineering terms and "good" English..... But, needless to say, IMOP he's spot on.......

(btw HF, THX....you explain what I believe better than I explain what I believe....LOL....true though...... )

[JeffMann]

Hognafan924

 

You write-: "Just look at the included angle of the hip and shoulder lines that Jeffmann has drawn in each frame. See how that angle decreases dramatically from frame 1 to frame 2 then increases again from frame 2 to 3 and maintains itself (roughly) to frame 5? I guarantee you that not what is really happening. So when I say the "hips lead the parade" I think that is supported by the video evidence."

 

You have made two assertions. One assertion is that "something" is not really happening - despite very solid video evidence. How can you guarantee that it is not happening?

 

The second assertion is that the "hips lead the parade". How do you know the "hips lead the parade" if you are seeing two phenomena (hip turn + shoulder turn) occurring simultaneously?

 

It is my opinion that we impose our a priori beliefs on the way we perceive reality. For example, I have been indoctrinated by Hogan's book that the hips start the downswing and that the shoulders respond reactively. Therefore, when looking at two simultaneously occurring events (hip turn and shoulder turn), I presume that the hip turn is the "cause" and the shoulder turn an "effect" rather than the other way around.

 

I have therefore previously argued as follows - the hips square in the early downswing and that pulls the power package assembly down to waist level. I then produced the following photo to support my argument.

 

 

The power package assembly is the yellow colored area, and I have previously argued that the movement of the power package assembly is a secondary phenomenon that occurs secondary to the primary phenomenon - the hip squaring action. However, the true reality is that both events are occurring simulataneously and I therefore cannot prove which event is causative and which event is reactive. I think that this is very important because we can distort reality by having a priori presumptions.

 

Look at this video.

 

Mike Bender Lesson

 

Mike Bender is arguing that one starts the downswing by swinging the arms and therefore clubshaft down towards the ball, and that the hips are only reactive, and that the hips only react to the movement of the arms. In other words, he is turning my argument on its head by stating the arms move first and the body reacts. His position is supported by another video.

 

Chuck Cook Lesson

 

Watch the downswing commentary when Chuck Cook talks of the right shoulder being the focus point and that one should think of the right shoulder moving down to the ball at the start of the downswing. Then the right shoulder becomes the primary event and it drives the hips - rather than the other way around.

 

As a result of these two video lessons, I have experimented with another approach to the downswing where I start from the top, and I imagine that I am simply going to swing my right shoulder and arms down towards the ball (primary event) and allow the hips to be reactive (secondary event). I have found that I can hit the ball better this way.

 

Consider another analogy. Imagine a stone skipping action. The stone is in one's right hand. If one's mind is on the stone, how do we throw the stone? When thinking of the stone, we perform a stone skipping action (side-arm throwing action) where the intention to throw gets transmitted to the right upper limb and right upper torso, which initiates the action. The hips are responsive/reactive and they open up during the stone throwing action to maximise the efficiency of the stone throwing action. If we do that with stone throwing, why should we do it any differently when swinging a golf club? I believe that we instinctively want to throw the golf club around our body in the direction of the ball, and that the first movement should therefore be an upper body movement rather than a lower body movement.

 

Therefore (going back to the original video of Matt), how do you really know what is happening first in his swing? What comes first in his swing - a shoulder rotation or a hip rotation? How can you prove that assertion?

 

Jeff.

[slicefixer]

Mike Bender is arguing that one starts the downswing by swinging the arms and therefore clubshaft down towards the ball, and that the hips are only reactive, and that the hips only react to the movement of the arms. In other words, he is turning my argument on its head by stating the arms move first and the body reacts. His position is supported by another video.






You can swing quite effectively in this manner.....Luke Donald does.....but you'll be a lightweight in terms of distance.......have tendency to chase of down the line and hook it/block it.......have a lot of forearm/face "roll" through impact which leads to timing issues......but it can and does work........back when I had the club stuck behind my asss it was the ONLY way I could start a ball right of target and draw it.........but, it's NOT the absolute best way to play golf IMOP.....

Btw, I've yet to see a good ballstrikers golf swing where the left shoulder stayed static while the arms/club "dropped"/'worked down" in the transition......doesn't happen.....and IF their arms were TRULY starting the downswing via the transition then the left shoulder should remain "static".....but it doesn't.......

The player might THINK it's happening, but, IMOP in reality all they've done is STOP aggressively driving/spinning "the hips" in their transition and leaving their arms/club behind their a** .....






Chuck Cook Lesson

Watch the downswing commentary when Chuck Cook talks of the right shoulder being the focus point and that one should think of the right shoulder moving down to the ball at the start of the downswing. Then the right shoulder becomes the primary event and it drives the hips - rather than the other way around.





Same as above with one caveat........the ole "start the arms first" in the transition is normally used by players who have their arms well out of synch with their core in the backswing......it's simply a "compensation" for an out of synch backswing armswing.......


As a result of these two video lessons, I have experimented with another approach to the downswing where I start from the top, and I imagine that I am simply going to swing my right shoulder and arms down towards the ball (primary event) and allow the hips to be reactive (secondary event). I have found that I can hit the ball better this way.


GREAT for you if you find a way to swing the club that is MORE effective for YOU than your previous method.......but, just because a different transition move works better for you does NOT mean it's the best way to transition into the downswing.......nor would the resulting golf swing with the "different" transition necessarily be the best way for YOU to swing a golf club, but, nothing more than a "transition compensation" for a backswing ERROR........an "error for an error"..........

However, a LOT of golf tournaments and a LOT of $$$$'s won with golf swings that were basically a series of compensations resulting in a FANTASTIC "impact zone".......think Furyk... ....I wouldn't say Furyk's overall golf swing is the best way to swing a golf club, but, he has certain moves in his backswing that aren't fundamentally sound and then compensates in his transition to "repair them" and which results in the CLUBHEAD working as well as any I've ever seen in my life through impact......

JMOP.....

[Lake]

Doc,

I think you have just re-discovered "Swinging/Hitting" & "CP/CF"

[slicefixer]

[quote name='lakewoodgcc' post='804998' date='Nov 28 2007, 01:26 AM']Doc,

I think you have just re-discovered "Swinging/Hitting" & "CP/CF"[/quote]


AS I've been known to say before, "More or less, EXACTLY".....hehehe.... .

(or as I call it, "Old School" vs. "Modern".......)

[JeffMann]

Slicefixer

I think that I should have added one point. When I stated that I start the downswing with an upper body move rather than a lower body move, it doesn't imply a disconnection between the arms and torso. In fact, when starting the downswing with an upper body move, I think of moving the [b]entire [/b]power package assemply (which also includes the right shoulder) as a synchronised unit at the start of the downswing. Do you have any evidence that this downswing action will result in a loss of power compared to a swing where the lower body moves first?

Regarding Matt's swing, his shoulders rotate a large distance in the [b]early[/b] downswing (compared to the hips). What is powering his shoulder move and is it reactive to a hip move or does it simply occur simultaneously with his hip move?

Jeff.

[ej002]

THANKS SLICE - did not see some of those insights coming!

[slicefixer]

Slicefixer

I think that I should have added one point. When I stated that I start the downswing with an upper body move rather than a lower body move, it doesn't imply a disconnection between the arms and torso. In fact, when starting the downswing with an upper body move, I think of moving the entire power package assemply (which also includes the right right shoulder) as a synchronised unit at the start of the downswing. Do you have any evidence that this downswing action will result in a loss of power compared to a swing where the lower body moves first?

Regarding Matt's swing, his shoulders rotate a large distance in the early downswing (compared to the hips). What is powering his shoulder move and is it reactive to a hip move or does it simply occur simultaneously with his hip move?

Jeff.


Doc, this is why typing on internet forums isn't the best way to communicate something as "complicated" and "dynamic" as the golf swing.........the type of transition your describing above is basically exactly what I teach and believe in......at least that's the feeling we're searching for.......I use references to the "core influencing the arms/club, but, that's exactly what I'm referring to"........once again, "SEMANTICS"......

It's the feeling of his ENTIRE LEFT "SIDE" CLEARING........getting out of the way so his RIGHT side can TURN THROUGH THE BALL.......with the arms/club "along for the ride"......

Does that make sense? IF I try and explain using human anatomy terminology I'll sound worse than I already do at times...

[slicefixer]

[quote name='ej002' post='805013' date='Nov 28 2007, 01:41 AM']THANKS SLICE - did not see some of those insights coming![/quote]


Your welcome EJ.......

[JeffMann]

Lakewoodgcc

You are wrong. I can perform a golf downswing starting with an upper body move using [b]either[/b] a hitting or a swinging action. I prefer a swinging action. I actually think of swinging the arms and right shoulder [b]simultaneously[/b] and I avoid any hitting action by keeping my right arm very passive throughout the entire downswing. I deliberately keep the power package assembly intact until I reach waist level, and I swing the power package assembly around my body as an unit [b] without [/b]any hitting action.

Consider again a stone skipping action or side-arm throwing action. If one starts with an upper body move, then it doesn't automatically imply a "hitting action" rather than a "swinging action". It is possible to perform the stone throwing action using both methods.

Jeff.

[slicefixer]

[quote name='JeffMann' post='805018' date='Nov 28 2007, 01:44 AM']Lakewoodgcc

You are wrong. I can perform a golf downswing starting with an upper body move using [b]either[/b] a hitting or a swinging action. I prefer a swinging action. I actually think of swinging the arms and right shoulder [b]simultaneously[/b] and I avoid any hitting action by keeping my right arm very passive throughout the entire downswing. I deliberattely keep the power package assembly intact until I reach waist level, and I swing the power package assembly around my body as an unit [b] without [/b]any hitting action..

Consider again a stone skipping action or side-arm throwing action. If one starts with an upper body move, then it doesn't automatically imply a "hitting action" rather than a "swinging action". It is possible to perform the stone throwing action using both methods.

Jeff.[/quote]


Doc, I think lake interpreted your previous post the same way I did..........the ole "start the arms first" in the transition which does lead to a "fllippy"/crossover/arms ACROSS the chest release.........that's why he posted what he did and I the same.........

Lake, not trying to speak for you, but, I just thought this answer was a no-brainer......

[Ezgolfer]

Jeffman,
You raise an interesting question. Believe it or not throwing the arms at the ball on downswing can give you the same distance and compression as conventional method.
The question you raise is an easy experiment. You can measure the the distance travelled by shoulder and hip in downswing by using modern gizmo's. A good university biomechnical lab facility is all you need .I am sure you have one in your area.
Mike Bender seem to almost deny the Hogan power package.
Very interesting........... , i would like to this thread to stay active.

[Lake]

I can't argue what you feel but I can argue what you do so it would solve a lot of paralysis of the fingers if you posted a "face-on" and "down-the-line" view of your swing with decent shutter speed. Place the camera at sternum height. I think it would be fun!!!

[Lake]

Slice,

I was typing a friggin essay with TGM lingo out the wazoo and I said forget-it...dropped it like was hot...said to myself this is ridiculous...just post the footage

Got to browse through power accumulator #1(6-B-1-0) though...it wasn't a total waste!!!

Thanks for hopping in there on my behalf

Lake

ps- I'm on your team Jeff...lets get better together!!!

[slicefixer]

[quote name='lakewoodgcc' post='805045' date='Nov 28 2007, 02:47 AM']Slice,

I was typing a friggin essay with TGM lingo out the wazoo and I said forget-it...dropped it like was hot...said to myself this is ridiculous...just post the footage

Got to browse through power accumulator #1(6-B-1-0) though...it wasn't a total waste!!!

Thanks for hopping in there on my behalf

Lake

ps- I'm on your team Jeff...lets get better together!!![/quote]


LOL.....LOL......I'm hittin' the hay on that un'........hehehehe......

[KOC]

Can't believe my uploaded videos bring some insights for Jiff! I of course tried them all and did have the same feeling of what Jiff said: to swing my right shoulder and arms down towards the ball…but that is, IMHO, monitoring of pivot and not my end of search as Homer's Hand system.

 

Lately, a TGM fan drew a picture on Sam Snead and I ended up with these pictures (my drawing was not so good) and hit long and straight. Do you feel the pressures points in Hogan's hand and how the body response for the PULL?

It works for me, and a good reference to my understanding of what Homer called "Hand Control Privot"

 

 

 

 

Sorry for my innocence or ignorance on this post.

[Shaitan]

lol, how about with the right swing dynamics, this movement should come naturally and shouldn't be over analysed as you will think too much in your actual swing . They're good movements but I wouldn't get wrapped up in them

[MWL]

what can't speak can't lie...

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y19tX_v_C-Y"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y19tX_v_C-Y[/url]
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy9GTAENiJA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy9GTAENiJA[/url]

you can clearly see core/lat/ribs(intercostal muscles) starting and leading the downswing... how could it be any other way in a powerfull swing.. the shoulders are just passive and controlled by the lats/core/ribs(intercostal musles).. the shoulders are used for raising and lowering the arms.. dont play any part in the downswing. Jeffman you talk about the shoulders but shoulders dont turn the torso of their own accord, they can't.. shoulder is a ball joint so are hips.. its whats inbetween that counts..

As a side note you can also really see what slicefixer talks about when comparing Angels inside-square-inside release in harmony with his rotating core to tigers good ol sling down the line..