Anyone care to explain some commonly used TGM terminology like Horizontal Hinge, Vertical Hinge, inc

[rosskoss]

Any resident TGM experts?

Trying to follow some online TGM lessons but I can't understand what they mean by the various wrist hinges during the follow through. (among several other things)

Can someone describe some of the commonly used TGM terminology in layman terms?

[hayam]

try iseekgolf.com
easier to understand.

[rosskoss]

Thanks, I'll check it out.

In the meanwhile, I have a very basic understanding of TGM (via lynn blake online). You control the clubface, the clubhead and the clubshaft using hinge action, angular motion on an inclined plane.

So from this, would hinge action mean the rotation of the forearm, not the hinging of the wrists? (which would come under angular motion?)

[glcoach]

3 types of hinges

Horizontal
Angled
Vertical

Horizontal is often used with swinging
Angled is often used with hitting
Vertical is used mainly in the short game.

I really don't believe in "hitting" per se. I think you can apply force across the shaft, but full out hitting is questionable in my head, anyway......

Before studying hinge action, it is good to know the wrist conditions and what part of the hands and arms controls the shaft, clubhead and clubface. A lot of people out there, with a lot more knowledge than me, so take what I say for what it is....my opinion on a free golf forum.

[rosskoss]

Thanks for that tip again hayam.

This interview taught me a lot -

[url="http://www.iseekgolf.com/golfinstruction/6724-sick-of-hacking-a-chat-with-lynn-blake"]http://www.iseekgolf.com/golfinstruction/6...with-lynn-blake[/url]

I know that TGM is one of the most complete approaches possible in golf. Being an engineer, I'm a firm believer in a systematic, rigorous and methodical approach. The TGM offers such an approach like nothing else out there. Variation of one parameter results in one ball flight, change another parameter and you get another ball flight. The whole spectrum is available. It really is a construction of a human machine that can swing a club. And it's exactly what I'm looking for. However, I'm not sure I have the time available to invest sufficient energy and effort into learning the golfing machine swing. But, I'm learning what I can for now.

[Gstv]

Try this:

[url="http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/gallery/files/517/HingeAction1.wmv"]Part 1 [/url]

[url="http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/gallery/files/517/HingeAction2.wmv"]Part 2 [/url]

Or do a serach at Lynns Blake or Brian Manzella's forums. The videos is from Lynn Blake.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='hayam' post='808105' date='Nov 30 2007, 01:38 PM']Angle of approach, Angled hinging, straight line visual blurr. Angled hinging. no roll of arm. CF

ARC of approach, swing left, curve blur, because of the turning left, centripetal force, thus it becomes horizontal hinge,[/quote]

Hayam,

I know next to nothing of TGM, but didn't Hogan use Arc or approach with [b]angled[/b] hinging? Same with Snead? Pretty sure this is what I do in my own swing. Certainly doesn't look to me like they shut the face down relative to the arc, but maybe I don't understand you correctly?

And it also seems to me that players I see using Cf do roll the arms and use horizontal hinging (If I understand the terms properly). What am I not understanding?

[rosskoss]

[quote name='hayam' post='808105' date='Nov 30 2007, 01:38 PM']in a nutshell...

vertical,horizontal,angled is the clubface in relation to the plane.. horizontal is parallel to the plane, verticle is right angle tothe plane .[/quote]

I'm assuming that these describe the position of the clubface post impact.......but at what point during the followthrough?

And is horizontal parallel to the plane or along the plane? (parallel and coincident)

[quote name='hayam' post='808105' date='Nov 30 2007, 01:38 PM']angled is no roll, verticle is reverse roll, and horizontal fullroll of the arm.[/quote]

I'm not sure I understand the difference between vertical and angled yet. I understand no roll and full roll of the forearm (left forearm I assume). But what is reverse roll?

[quote name='hayam' post='808105' date='Nov 30 2007, 01:38 PM']Angle of approach, Angled hinging, straight line visual blurr. Angled hinging. no roll of arm. CF

ARC of approach, swing left, curve blur, because of the turning left, centripetal force, thus it becomes horizontal hinge,[/quote]

Understand somewhat but still don't have a complete picture. I'm going to view those videos Gstv posted and see if they make a difference. Thanks!

[rosskoss]

I see clubface control plane part 4

[url="http://www.iseekgolf.com/golfinstruction/6116-clubface-control-the-plane-part-4"]http://www.iseekgolf.com/golfinstruction/6...he-plane-part-4[/url]

But I can't seem to find parts 1,2 and 3 of this series.

[JeffMann]

Rosskoss - I presume that I didn't explain the topic of hinging well enough in my paper on the SPL.

There are two good [b]free [/b]sources of information on hinging at Lynn Blake's website.

First you have to register at lynnblakegolf.com, which is free. Then go the video section.

1) Go to free videos => click on Tom Tomasello videos => download chapter 4.

2) Go to free videos => click on Lynn Blake. There are two free videos on hinging by Lynn Blake in his free video section.

If you have any questions after viewing those free videos, post your questions here.

Jeff.

[hayam]

Fix your swing part 1 part 2 ..

downstroke plane : part 3

keep your swing on plane : part 1


Tons of way to explain TGM. TT /Lynnblake/Chuck Evans/Brian Manzella. All 3 is good. BUT you will get very confused if you study all their explanations in one shot.. I agree with Jeff, start with TT.

[JeffMann]

I don't like to get into any fruitless arguments, but I truly think that most of the comments made about hinging in this thread are wrong.

Before I get into any debate, I would advice all forum members, who are very interested in this subject, to look at those free videos at lynnblakegolf.com.

Pay particular attention to Lynn Blake's discussion about hinging as applied to the left arm. The action occurs at the shoulder socket and it describes the hinging that occurs at that point - between the left arm and torso. Hinging does [b]not[/b] involve any rolling over of the wrists/hand due to forearm rotary action. Hinging also only occurs [b]post-impact[/b] and not pre-impact. It occurs between impact and the end of the followthrough when both arms are straight. After hinging is complete, one ends the swing by a swivelling action, and the swivelling action is totally different to the hinging action.

Hayam - you relate hinging action to a plane. What plane?

Jeff.

[Lake]

[quote name='JeffMann' post='808584' date='Nov 30 2007, 09:16 PM']Hinging also only occurs [b]post-impact[/b] and not pre-impact. It occurs between impact and the end of the followthrough when both arms are straight. After hinging is complete, one ends the swing by a swivelling action, and the swivelling action is totally different to the hinging action.[/quote]

Jeff,

I believe you are correct.

In 2-G Hinge Motion it states near the end of the second paragraph:

There is, however, the "Release Roll" (Swivel) which is a true rotation of the Hands into Impact alignment by Accumulator #3 (with 10-18-A only). After the selected Hinge Action has been executed, the Swivel is again useful for Snap Rolling the hands into their On Plane Condition for the Finish.

Basically speaking if you have a neutral grip and you turn your left hand to plane (palming the inclined plane with the left hand) on the backswing and on the downswing using 10-18-A (uncock & roll) and desired hinge action.

David Orr has a video this subject: [url="http://www.orrgolf.com/public/forum/viewtopic.php?t=186"]http://www.orrgolf.com/public/forum/viewtopic.php?t=186[/url]

Lake

ps- I think one of the best paragraph's in the book is in 2-G in the 3rd paragraph:

The point to be learned here is that the Club, because of the flat left wrist, must always travel at the same RPM as the Arms and reproduce the Hinging inherent in the selected Lag Loading procedure (10-19) per 4-D, 9-2 and 9-3, regardless of Clubhead Extension velocity. See 2-P and 7-18. What we see on the driving range all day is the club flying right on by the arms prior to impact!!!!

[dana dahlquist]

[quote name='lakewoodgcc' post='808666' date='Nov 30 2007, 09:00 PM'][quote name='JeffMann' post='808584' date='Nov 30 2007, 09:16 PM']Hinging also only occurs [b]post-impact[/b] and not pre-impact. It occurs between impact and the end of the followthrough when both arms are straight. After hinging is complete, one ends the swing by a swivelling action, and the swivelling action is totally different to the hinging action.[/quote]

Jeff,

I believe you are correct.

In 2-G Hinge Motion it states near the end of the second paragraph:

There is, however, the "Release Roll" (Swivel) which is a true rotation of the Hands into Impact alignment by Accumulator #3 (with 10-18-A only). After the selected Hinge Action has been executed, the Swivel is again useful for Snap Rolling the hands into their On Plane Condition for the Finish.

Basically speaking if you have a neutral grip and you turn your left hand to plane (palming the inclined plane with the left hand) on the backswing and on the downswing using 10-18-A (uncock & roll) and desired hinge action.

David Orr has a video this subject: [url="http://www.orrgolf.com/public/forum/viewtopic.php?t=186"]http://www.orrgolf.com/public/forum/viewtopic.php?t=186[/url]

Lake

ps- I think one of the best paragraph's in the book is in 2-G in the 3rd paragraph:

The point to be learned here is that the Club, because of the flat left wrist, must always travel at the same RPM as the Arms and reproduce the Hinging inherent in the selected Lag Loading procedure (10-19) per 4-D, 9-2 and 9-3, regardless of Clubhead Extension velocity. See 2-P and 7-18. What we see on the driving range all day is the club flying right on by the arms prior to impact!!!!
[/quote]
Davids stuff goes to the next level without getting to over board on the terms. However he is at the College level and does testing on TGM/M***** with 3D based models. That is the future of golf (swings and putting) IMOP. If your new to this stuff, best place to start is with Ben Doyles video on hitting chips, they work on how to set the computer up for lowpoint. They also talk alot about pressure points hitiing the ball and not the club head, which is huge learning the flying wedges....Have fun and one bite at a time....

[Machinegolfer]

[quote name='JeffMann' post='808584' date='Nov 30 2007, 10:16 PM']I don't like to get into any fruitless arguments, but I truly think that most of the comments made about hinging in this thread are wrong.

Before I get into any debate, I would advice all forum members, who are very interested in this subject, to look at those free videos at lynnblakegolf.com.

Pay particular attention to Lynn Blake's discussion about hinging as applied to the left arm. The action occurs at the shoulder socket and it describes the hinging that occurs at that point - between the left arm and torso. Hinging does [b]not[/b] involve any rolling over of the wrists/hand due to forearm rotary action. Hinging also only occurs [b]post-impact[/b] and not pre-impact. It occurs between impact and the end of the followthrough when both arms are straight. After hinging is complete, one ends the swing by a swivelling action, and the swivelling action is totally different to the hinging action.

Hayam - you relate hinging action to a plane. What plane?

Jeff.[/quote]

The left arm flying wedge is the blade to a paddle wheel which can produce a full roll, no roll, or reverse roll each corresponding to a specific hinge action. the full roll horizontal hinge is a full roll feel* but in a horizontal plane would look like a closing door. many confuse a swivel which is the forearm post impact for the paddle wheel action...although hinge actions are POST IMPACT it would be wise to match them on both pre impact/post impact...

[JeffMann]

Hayam - your write-: "Hinge ACTION in TGM is relative to Inclined PLANE. Plane shaft travel on, may need a plane board for this to understand. if its HORIZONTAL it means its the clubface is Parralel to plane".

I think that you are wrong. The term horizontal applies to the ground, and the clubface is never exactly parallel to the plane except at a single moment in time (well after the followthrough phase of the swing). It is either square, closed or open relative to the plane.

This is my take on the subject.

When the clubshaft passes impact, it travels up the inclined surface of the plane board. As it passes along the inclined surface of the plane board, the clubface is perpendicular to the plane board (square to the clubhead swingarc) in the neutral 'no roll" situation. When the [b]clubface is square to the inclined plane[/b], then it is [b]angled relative to the ground[/b].

If one allows the clubface to roll over so that it is closed to the clubhead swingarc ([b]closed to the inclined plane[/b]) then the clubface is [b]horizontal to the ground[/b].

If one reverse rolls the clubface so that it is open to the clubhead swingarc (and [b]open to the inclined plane[/b]), then the [b]clubface is vertical to the ground[/b].

This rolling of the clubface relative to the inclined plane occurs at the shoulder joint, which is an universal joint, and involves a roll (or reverse roll) of the entire left arm flying wedge unit (left arm, left forearm, flat left wrist) as a unitary structure. There is no independent roll over of the forerarms, which would cause pronation/supination of the wrists.

I have no idea what you mean by dual hinging.

Lakewood

Regarding swiveling, it's the roll action that occurs [b]after[/b] followthrough is complete, and it's the roll action that causes the back of the left hand to swivel back so that it lies against the inclined plane. The roll action occurs at the level of the shoulder joint and is accompanied by bending of the left elbow. The forearm does not rotate independently and there is no wrist supination/pronation action at the wrist level. The left elbow bends thereby allowing the left forearm to fan out when the left upper arm rotates counterclockwise (as seen from above) and eventually the back of the left hand will lie on the inclined plane. When the back of the left hand is lying on the inclined plane, the left wrist will still be flat.

Jeff.

[Machinegolfer]

[quote name='JeffMann' post='808699' date='Dec 1 2007, 12:34 AM']Hayam - your write-: "Hinge ACTION in TGM is relative to Inclined PLANE. Plane shaft travel on, may need a plane board for this to understand. if its HORIZONTAL it means its the clubface is Parralel to plane".

I think that you are wrong. The terms horizontal applies to the ground, and the clubface is never exactly parallel to the plane except at a single moment in time (well after the followthrough phase of the swing). It is either square, closed or open relative to the plane.

This is my take on the subject.

When the clubshaft passes impact, it travels up the inclined surface of the plane board. As it passes along the inclined surface of the plane board, the clubface is perpendicular to the plane board (square to the clubhead swingarc) in the neutral 'no roll" situation. When the [b]clubface is square to the inclined plane[/b], then it is [b]angled relative to the ground[/b].

If one allows the clubface to roll over so that it is closed to the clubhead swingarc ([b]closed to the inclined plane[/b]) then the clubface is [b]horizontal to the ground[/b].

If one reverse rolls the clubface so that it is open to the clubhead swingarc (and [b]open to the inclined plane[/b]), then the [b]clubface is vertical to the ground[/b].

This rolling of the clubface relative to the inclined plane occurs at the shoulder joint, which is an universal joint, and involves a roll (or reverse roll) of the entire left arm flying wedge unit (left arm, left forearm, flat left wrist) as a unitary structure. There is no independent roll over of the forerarms, which would cause pronation/supination of the wrists.

I have no idea what you mean by dual hinging.

Lakewood

Regarding swiveling, it's the roll action that occurs [b]after[/b] followthrough is complete, and it's the roll action that causes the back of the left hand to swivel back so that it lies against the inclined plane. The roll action occurs at the level of the shoulder joint and is accompanied by bending of the left elbow. The forearm does not rotate independently and there is no wrist supination/pronation action at the wrist level. The left elbow bends thereby allowing the left forearm to fan out when the left upper arm rotates counterclockwise (as seen from above) and eventually the back of the left hand will lie on the inclined plane.

Jeff.[/quote]


everyone making full swings are really usuing dual hinging, the dual horizontal and dual vertical inclue an angled hinge pin to allow the club to stay on plane, there is no dual angled hinging becuase the club is already on plane

[dana dahlquist]

All that really matters to everyone on this board who is not a single digit handicap should be lowpoint and the Law of the Flail( how to get inline conditon)with pivot.

 

If people who do TGM dont get that first they are going to be thinking about the club face and never get any impact alignments.

 

Sorry to burst anyone bubble.

 

Machine your dead on BTW as always. I just hit the panic button when clubface orbits and hinge actions are being talked about.

 

Jeff- I think you both trying to state the same idea there...

[hayam]

Yes JEFF.

i think its a bad explanation hinge vs plane..Hinge is actually on the shoulder , the pin is horizontal or angled or vertical when standing up straight and leading hand is in a shake hand condition. Another hinge moves the arm vertically up and down to keep them on inclined plane, that + verticle =dual vertical and that + horizontal = dual horizontal .

angle of approach is out to the right field thus arm move in ANGLED hinge action

swing left arc of approach, thus when swing left the hinge would go dual horizontal.. For Hoganfan

Sorry bout that.and anybody else if i wrongly informed. .. I think Machinegolfer and Dana offer a much better explanation than me. Got jumbled up with the other concepts and got lost in the fog.

I deleted the post so not to confuse . Thanks for pointing it out.

[hoganfan924]

Geeez,

I'm more confused than ever! Someone needs to write "TGM for Dummies!"

Actually, if you TGM guys really want to help golfers online, you'd probably best serve them by doing something like JeffMann is attempting that would explain with pictures/sequences/video clips all of these different confusing terms (swivel action, dual horizontal, flying wedges, etc., etc.).

[mbcpro]

TGM for dummies is out, it is in The Golfing Machine you have to work to find it, but it is in there. Find your pattern and go from there!!!!


Todd

[JeffMann]

Hoganfan924

I agree with you 100% - somebody should write a TGM for Dummies book. I am amazed that no one has attempted to make TGM simple for us simple folks. Lynn Blake is very smart and knows a ton about TGM, but his explanations are not easy to understand. Also, his explanations are scattered among a zillion posts in his archives. He hasn't summarised his knowledge in a single book. I wish that he would.

The simplest video lesson that I have ever seen on TGM principles is by Paul Hart and it is available on Peter Croker's website for $25. It is well worth the money if one wants to understand the basics of the TGM system.

[url="http://www.crokergolfsystem.com/TGM_Downloads.htm"]Paul Hart TGM video series.[/url]

Jeff.

[Gstv]

It's all about how the hinge is mounted in the left shoulder. Here is some pics from lynn blakes forum:

 

 

Horizontal, Angled and Vertical.

 

Sorry for the big picture

[birdie_man]

Brian Manzella has lots of stuff on his site if you use the "search" feature.

Very good stuff.....very easy to understand. Basically is top-notch info.....very "technically-BASED" (Brian is a G.S.E.D. and does TONS of his own research too).....just without the jargon. (or at least- as much or as little of it as you desire)

[rosskoss]

It's all about how the hinge is mounted in the left shoulder. Here is some pics from lynn blakes forum:

 

 

Horizontal, Angled and Vertical.

 

Sorry for the big picture

 

Is this image accurate? If so, I don't see the point of the horizontal and vertical hinging actions. Those never occur in an actual golf swing which is always based off an angled golf swing. (unless you're swinging extra steep to get a ball out of the rough......even then, it isn't purely vertical)

 

Also, based on that diagram, using angled hinge, the clubface stays perpendicular to the clubshaft plane at all points. However, that doesn't happen in an actual golf swing where the clubface rotates and even becomes parallel to the plane at points during the swing.

 

Am I missing something here? ;)

[JeffMann]

RossKoss

That image shows the [b]potential[/b] variations in hinge action at the hinge point, but it doesn't show the[b] effect[/b] of those different hinge actions on the clubface, because those hinge actions only occur [b]post-impact[/b], and that image shows the clubhead at impact (where the clubface will be square to the ball-target line for all 3 hinge actions).

Jeff.

[Gstv]

Here is the video the pictures was taken from. From Lynn Blakes site

[url="http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/gallery/files/503/4-L-Hinges.avi"]http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/gallery/files.../4-L-Hinges.avi[/url]

It's a dual horizontal hinge, sp the clubshaft is always och the inclined plane

[JeffMann]

That's an extremely beautiful animation which clearly shows the different hinge actions occurring at the central hinge point. It shows what I stated - that when the clubshaft rides up the inclined plane after impact, the clubface will be square to the inclined plane (with angled hinging) or closed to the inclined plane (with horizontal hinging) or open to the inclined plane (with vertical hinging).

Jeff.

[hayam]

HF .. give me your email.