LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[SheriffBooth]

Please continue your discussions of the LIV Tour here.  Note:

 

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Edited December 17, 2023 by GwrxMod

[smashdn]

RE: The International

 

I pulled up their website to take a look around and see what the course was like and truthfully I didn't find a lot.  They do have two courses, both recently renovated/restored (however you would like to look at it).  I am going to assume they will be using the Fazio designed and Tripp Davis renovated Oaks Course.  (The Pines was mentioned as shorter and trickier was why I figured Oaks would get the billing.)

 

At any rate just checking the hole designs this looks like it will be a challenging layout but may prevent spectators to an extent on certain holes.  This has a very TPC Potomac feel to it, without the holes through the marsh area.

 

Sometimes we talk about courses "needing" an event to maintain status, gain status, justify investment, attract members, etc.  This is just my perception and is no slight on the club or course, but this appears to me to be one such case where perhaps due to the PGAT keeping their Northeast/Boston area event at TPC River Highlands in Hartford, it opens the door for another course in the relative same geographic area to step in.

[BottleCap]

@Potatohead The rights when ESPN first acquired it was for almost nothing, like 5 mill a year because NBC dropped it due to low ratings. ESPN decided to use the Sky broadcast, which is what F1TV uses as well, which is commercial free, but ESPN tried to have commercial breaks in the first race and of course it didn't work, so they went commercial free because they didn't have a choice. Sky uses the F1 broadcast to sell cable subscriptions, so they look at it as an investment, like ESPN with college football. 

 

This is why I don't think LIV can have a CBS/NBC type broadcast with commercials. If they have the same broadcast as the PGAT, there's no value in it over the PGAT, and it would be worse because you'd miss so much since everyone is on the course at the same time.

 

 

[Htk084]

4 minutes ago, BottleCap said:

@Potatohead The rights when ESPN first acquired it was for almost nothing, like 5 mill a year because NBC dropped it due to low ratings. ESPN decided to use the Sky broadcast, which is what F1TV uses as well, which is commercial free, but ESPN tried to have commercial breaks in the first race and of course it didn't work, so they went commercial free because they didn't have a choice. Sky uses the F1 broadcast to sell cable subscriptions, so they look at it as an investment, like ESPN with college football. 

 

This is why I don't think LIV can have a CBS/NBC type broadcast with commercials. If they have the same broadcast as the PGAT, there's no value in it over the PGAT, and it would be worse because you'd miss so much since everyone is on the course at the same time.

 

 

Some form of it will still exist and be commercial free

 

Phil Mickelson said in a press conference they will be bringing commercial free golf to the fans in maybe a streaming deal.  This was after round 1 at bedminster so pretty recent

 

 

[idrive]

Honest question.

 

Does anyone think the loud music bothers some of these guys?

 

I have read a couple of different articles that have mentioned some of the guys backing off a shot when the music was particularly loud, especially the bass seemed to be the biggest disrupter.  

 

Lets be honest in the fact that they're used to having it be quiet, especially on the more difficult putts. How many times have you seen the caddies throw their arms up in an effort to quiet the crowd.

 

Think it makes any difference one way or the other?  Me thinks most don't really care for it but most likely have nothing they can say either way at this point.

 

 

 

 

[CasualLie]

Doesn't it seem a little, maybe just a little, odd that Stenson went from deposed RC Captain to LIV winner in just a week???  We are not talking about a golfer in the groove and tournament ready.  We already know some of the teams were not truly a draft, so there's manipulation.  We already know so much money is being thrown at the players that it's basically an exhibition.  So how do we not know there may have been a little pre-game discussion in the locker room, a wink here, a nod there...and voila, Stenson is the chosen winner that week???

 

I know, it sounds crazy, outlandish, no way the golf is fixed!  But is is that far fetched of a scenario?  It wouldn't take much.  If you are getting paid a lot more money for finishing 2nd or 3rd or worse vs winning on PGAT, and you get team money too, plus your guaranteed contract; then it's not a lot to ask to miss a putt here and there, miss a chip...

 

This suspicion is what happens when there is a lot of money going around in a "controlled" environment.  I am just a little surprised the "fixing" card has not been brought up before. 

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

34 minutes ago, Htk084 said:

Some form of it will still exist and be commercial free

 

Phil Mickelson said in a press conference they will be bringing commercial free golf to the fans in maybe a streaming deal.  This was after round 1 at bedminster so pretty recent

 

 

Commercial free golf in a streaming "deal" suggests that the LIV coffers are paying someone to air it, not that LIV is getting paid for the rights to air it. 

 

 

 

 

[bscinstnct]

48 minutes ago, BottleCap said:

@Potatohead The rights when ESPN first acquired it was for almost nothing, like 5 mill a year because NBC dropped it due to low ratings. ESPN decided to use the Sky broadcast, which is what F1TV uses as well, which is commercial free, but ESPN tried to have commercial breaks in the first race and of course it didn't work, so they went commercial free because they didn't have a choice. Sky uses the F1 broadcast to sell cable subscriptions, so they look at it as an investment, like ESPN with college football. 

 

This is why I don't think LIV can have a CBS/NBC type broadcast with commercials. If they have the same broadcast as the PGAT, there's no value in it over the PGAT, and it would be worse because you'd miss so much since everyone is on the course at the same time.

 

 

 

They are light years from network media deals but it just depends on how long the money is there to make up for the lack of revenue. 
 

I think Norman said he had 2 billion so I assume that’s good for a couple of years. 
 

If, during the next 2 years, they acquire 30-40% of the top 50 in the world, I think the interest will grow and they could get more money. 
 

If they get 50% or more of the top 50, then they can get network media interest as big advertisers will be interested. 

 

If the trajectory is up, I think the money will keep coming to make up for the shortfall.

 

But, I think ultimately they won’t acquire more than 20% of the top 20 American/US Based golfers. And they will be more of an international tour with a couple of events in the US. 
 

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by bscinstnct

[avrag]

13 minutes ago, idrive said:

Honest question.

 

Does anyone think the loud music bothers some of these guys?

 

 

I know it has bothered me, when I tried to watch the coverage on Youtube, especially so, beacuse it was music I personally would never listen to. 
Feel free to use "Ok, boomer" in your replies. I am proud of the fact that I manage to cope with most of my daily challenges in life without needing a smartphone app to help me with it.

[avrag]

11 minutes ago, CasualLie said:

I know, it sounds crazy, outlandish

 

Yes.

[subrew]

Watching the final round ad Bedminster, was an exercise in old school vs new school golf.  Stenson was playing course management golf.  Hitting his 13* Diablo fairway wood off most tees to wider portions of the fairway.  Laying up in longer Par 5 holes, including the 18 on the final day much to the jeers of fans. 

 

Meanwhile DJ and Patrick were bombing driver off every tee, missing fairways.  Rough was pretty deep, and past the rough was often knee high grass/hay looking stuff. 

 

Stenson played excellent day 1, and ok day 2 and 3.  DJ was just missing every birdie chance by inches.  He could have been at -15 by tournament's end had he rolled in more. 

 

Wolff was on fire day 3, putting in an excellent performance.  He shot a 65 on a course with a 77.7 rating (when it played as a par 72, it was playing as a Par 71 for the tournament.)

[CDM]

55 minutes ago, smashdn said:

RE: The International

 

I pulled up their website to take a look around and see what the course was like and truthfully I didn't find a lot.  They do have two courses, both recently renovated/restored (however you would like to look at it).  I am going to assume they will be using the Fazio designed and Tripp Davis renovated Oaks Course.  (The Pines was mentioned as shorter and trickier was why I figured Oaks would get the billing.)

 

At any rate just checking the hole designs this looks like it will be a challenging layout but may prevent spectators to an extent on certain holes.  This has a very TPC Potomac feel to it, without the holes through the marsh area.

 

Sometimes we talk about courses "needing" an event to maintain status, gain status, justify investment, attract members, etc.  This is just my perception and is no slight on the club or course, but this appears to me to be one such case where perhaps due to the PGAT keeping their Northeast/Boston area event at TPC River Highlands in Hartford, it opens the door for another course in the relative same geographic area to step in.

 

 

The International is a great course. 

 

I too was surprised it was picked honestly for what you state.  I was happy to see it be something other then a TPC course though we know that would never happen  🤣.

 

I enjoyed it more when the PGAT played on different courses, as I liked seeing new courses. Now it seems half the events are on TPC (owned) courses.   

 

We have a TPC in my City and though it is decent, it is semi private and the rate is $200+ for local play.  It took some heat on the "growing" the game when it was announced at that rate and that it will be private in the end.  

[idrive]

4 minutes ago, avrag said:

 

I know it has bothered me, when I tried to watch the coverage on Youtube, especially so, beacuse it was music I personally would never listen to. 
Feel free to use "Ok, boomer" in your replies. I am proud of the fact that I manage to cope with most of my daily challenges in life without needing a smartphone app to help me with it.

 

Guess I'm showing my age? as you lost me there...

 

and... If it bothers some of the fans, I'd think it potentially bothers some of the players.

[Htk084]

22 minutes ago, idrive said:

Honest question.

 

Does anyone think the loud music bothers some of these guys?

 

I have read a couple of different articles that have mentioned some of the guys backing off a shot when the music was particularly loud, especially the bass seemed to be the biggest disrupter.  

 

Lets be honest in the fact that they're used to having it be quiet, especially on the more difficult putts. How many times have you seen the caddies throw their arms up in an effort to quiet the crowd.

 

Think it makes any difference one way or the other?  Me thinks most don't really care for it but most likely have nothing they can say either way at this point.

 

 

 

 

Most guys seem indifferent to it.  Some even like it a little bit, but some may mind it too I’m not sure 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

All in all it hasn’t seemed like a big deal to them and the league is flexible so if the players don’t like it- it will be gone.  

[Krt22]

23 minutes ago, idrive said:

Honest question.

 

Does anyone think the loud music bothers some of these guys?

 

I have read a couple of different articles that have mentioned some of the guys backing off a shot when the music was particularly loud, especially the bass seemed to be the biggest disrupter.  

 

Lets be honest in the fact that they're used to having it be quiet, especially on the more difficult putts. How many times have you seen the caddies throw their arms up in an effort to quiet the crowd.

 

Think it makes any difference one way or the other?  Me thinks most don't really care for it but most likely have nothing they can say either way at this point.

 

 

 

 

I think they have to pump in the music otherwise it would be alarmingly quiet since the crowds are so paltry. 

[mitchl]

13 minutes ago, idrive said:

Honest question.

 

Does anyone think the loud music bothers some of these guys?

 

I have read a couple of different articles that have mentioned some of the guys backing off a shot when the music was particularly loud, especially the bass seemed to be the biggest disrupter.  

 

Lets be honest in the fact that they're used to having it be quiet, especially on the more difficult putts. How many times have you seen the caddies throw their arms up in an effort to quiet the crowd.

 

Think it makes any difference one way or the other?  Me thinks most don't really care for it but most likely have nothing they can say either way at this point.

 

 

 

 

I would think that for some it must.   For others it likely becomes background noise.   For some it probably helps cut other distractions.
 

 I doubt it makes a difference though.   Sometimes at a PGA event, or even on TV, it gets so quiet you hear a frog burp and that in itself becomes a distraction.   These guys are pros, and have lived with various noises and distractions for all their  career.    
 

For the ones with tinnitus like me, it could increase the pain level, but my tinnitus is generally a help on the golf course as I can’t get as distracted as others.

 

[pearcebarr]

13 minutes ago, CasualLie said:

Doesn't it seem a little, maybe just a little, odd that Stenson went from deposed RC Captain to LIV winner in just a week???  We are not talking about a golfer in the groove and tournament ready.  We already know some of the teams were not truly a draft, so there's manipulation.  We already know so much money is being thrown at the players that it's basically an exhibition.  So how do we not know there may have been a little pre-game discussion in the locker room, a wink here, a nod there...and voila, Stenson is the chosen winner that week???

 

I know, it sounds crazy, outlandish, no way the golf is fixed!  But is is that far fetched of a scenario?  It wouldn't take much.  If you are getting paid a lot more money for finishing 2nd or 3rd or worse vs winning on PGAT, and you get team money too, plus your guaranteed contract; then it's not a lot to ask to miss a putt here and there, miss a chip...

 

This suspicion is what happens when there is a lot of money going around in a "controlled" environment.  I am just a little surprised the "fixing" card has not been brought up before. 

 

 

I thought this too, especially considering that LIV apparently isn't cooperating with some of the betting agencies. Does make you wonder though, how in the hell could they possibly fix a tournament? You can ask a bunch of guys to take a dive, but how do you guarantee that Stenson will play well?

[CDM]

5 minutes ago, avrag said:

 

I know it has bothered me, when I tried to watch the coverage on Youtube, especially so, beacuse it was music I personally would never listen to. 
Feel free to use "Ok, boomer" in your replies. I am proud of the fact that I manage to cope with most of my daily challenges in life without needing a smartphone app to help me with it.

 

I am a boomer and agree. I like the golf side setup so to speak but music is so "personal" it seems odd at times.  There was a song on at one point and I swear there was NO WAY  Stenson would be listening too that though  he said he does practice to music.  I could be wrong though LOL

[CasualLie]

1 minute ago, pearcebarr said:

I thought this too, especially considering that LIV apparently isn't cooperating with some of the betting agencies. Does make you wonder though, how in the hell could they possibly fix a tournament? You can ask a bunch of guys to take a dive, but how do you guarantee that Stenson will play well?

 

Good point, Stenson does have to do his part.  But pretty easy to go to "plan B" if he makes a bunch of bogeys.  LIV might already be on "Plan F" given Phil's hacker play.

[idrive]

11 minutes ago, avrag said:

 

I know it has bothered me, when I tried to watch the coverage on Youtube, especially so, beacuse it was music I personally would never listen to. 
Feel free to use "Ok, boomer" in your replies. I am proud of the fact that I manage to cope with most of my daily challenges in life without needing a smartphone app to help me with it.

 

6 minutes ago, idrive said:

 

Guess I'm showing my age? as you lost me there...

 

and... If it bothers some of the fans, I'd think it potentially bothers some of the players.

 

4 minutes ago, CDM said:

 

I am a boomer and agree. I like the golf side setup so to speak but music is so "personal" it seems odd at times.  There was a song on at one point and I swear there was NO WAY  Stenson would be listening too that though  he said he does practice to music.  I could be wrong though LOL

 

 

Never mind... has all been cleared up now...

[avrag]

7 minutes ago, idrive said:

 

Guess I'm showing my age? as you lost me there...

 

and... If it bothers some of the fans, I'd think it potentially bothers some of the players.

 

a) I don't care for music on the golf course, ever. 

b) I am a boomer and proud of it.

[Htk084]

Keep in mind.  LIV is targeting a younger audience.  So it’s okay if “boomers” don’t like it

[oikos1]

26 minutes ago, CasualLie said:

Doesn't it seem a little, maybe just a little, odd that Stenson went from deposed RC Captain to LIV winner in just a week???  We are not talking about a golfer in the groove and tournament ready.  We already know some of the teams were not truly a draft, so there's manipulation.  We already know so much money is being thrown at the players that it's basically an exhibition.  So how do we not know there may have been a little pre-game discussion in the locker room, a wink here, a nod there...and voila, Stenson is the chosen winner that week???

 

I know, it sounds crazy, outlandish, no way the golf is fixed!  But is is that far fetched of a scenario?  It wouldn't take much.  If you are getting paid a lot more money for finishing 2nd or 3rd or worse vs winning on PGAT, and you get team money too, plus your guaranteed contract; then it's not a lot to ask to miss a putt here and there, miss a chip...

 

This suspicion is what happens when there is a lot of money going around in a "controlled" environment.  I am just a little surprised the "fixing" card has not been brought up before. 

 

 

It's been brought up before.  However, unless you have evidence, it's pure speculation.  Could it happen?  Sure, just like if a boxing match is fixed, college players and NBA refs throwing games, players taking bribes.

 

Oh yeah, those things do happen in other sports with "a lot of money going around in a "controlled" environment".

 

Seems like a big risk for a golf tour in only it's third tournament and which clearly is in it for the long haul.  Such a directive would have to come from the top down and all of the top players being on board.  And for what?  So the ousted Ryder Cup captain gets his first win on the rival golf tour?

 

Do you really think that moves the needle?

 

[idrive]

3 minutes ago, avrag said:

 

a) I don't care for music on the golf course, ever. 

b) I am a boomer and proud of it.

 

Like it or not..

 

I totally agree with you.

[subrew]

I know Stenson hasn't done well on the PGAT recently, but it was only back in June he played decent at the Scandinavian Mixed event.  Linn Grant won overall by a huge margin, but Stenson got the official win (tied) on the DP Tour side of the event iirc.   

 

Not a big event, and didn't really win.  But he played decent only last month.

[idrive]

9 minutes ago, Htk084 said:

Keep in mind.  LIV is targeting a younger audience.  So it’s okay if “boomers” don’t like it

 

FWIW

 

I took your advice and bookmarked your latest predictions from the other thread.  Same as I bookmarked this one:

 

"just a reminder that liv golf is the future!   Along with big signings of hideki matsuyama and tommy fleetwood after the British open!"

[avrag]

It's funny, how I do not like the product LIV provides us with one bit, but I still feel the need to defend The LIV Tour and especially its players against accusations I find outrageous.

Edited August 2, 2022 by avrag

[subrew]

I would likely hate attending a LIV event.  I'm not a boomer, but I like my early morning quiet rounds of golf.  I'm also not one for needing loud music, or flashy anything for entertainment.  I watch slow boring shows on PBS and stream Nordic thrillers that put most people to sleep.

 

But I enjoy the LIV coverage, music included.  I think I would rather have the music on at say "2" in the background, compared to some of the older FOX coverage of golf that had a green side mic aimed at the spectators turned up to 11.  

 

And yes, the drunk fans screaming out stupid stuff bothered me.  But it bothers me during most golf coverage, so that isn't really anything new for LIV.

 

I mostly watch LPGA events, so I'm ok with toned down coverage.  Probably watch 75% of LPGA coverage, and barely watch PGAT coverage outside the majors and a handful of bigger events.  The PGAT "off weekend" events just don't do it for me.

 

I might be totally done with LIV by event 6.  But so far we've enjoyed having it up on the YT app on the big screen, and not watching any boner pill or wealth management commercials every six minutes.  

[BottleCap]

27 minutes ago, avrag said:

It's funny, how I do not like the product LIV provides us with one bit, but I still feel the need to defend The LIV Tour and especially its players against accusations I find outrageous.

 I'm a US Open, Masters, and British Open guy, i think all the tours are more traveling circuses than anything else

 

21 minutes ago, subrew said:

I might be totally done with LIV by event 6.  But so far we've enjoyed having it up on the YT app on the big screen, and not watching any boner pill or wealth management commercials every six minutes.  

LOL, i feel the same, I think that LIV has been better background noise than the PGAT. I only really pay attention to the US Open, Masters, and British Open and the USGA events on Golf Channel

Edited August 2, 2022 by BottleCap

[mitchl]

1 hour ago, CasualLie said:

Doesn't it seem a little, maybe just a little, odd that Stenson went from deposed RC Captain to LIV winner in just a week???  We are not talking about a golfer in the groove and tournament ready.  We already know some of the teams were not truly a draft, so there's manipulation.  We already know so much money is being thrown at the players that it's basically an exhibition.  So how do we not know there may have been a little pre-game discussion in the locker room, a wink here, a nod there...and voila, Stenson is the chosen winner that week???

 

I know, it sounds crazy, outlandish, no way the golf is fixed! 

 

 

 

It does not sound crazy.   But even though so much is tightly controlled- players don’t go off script - Fehrerty didn’t even leave script (so much so he was boring) - how do you do throw it to another guy?   I just don’t see in there case that it went to Matthew Wolff or to Carlos Ortiz to throw off to Stenson.   Reed and Johnson are more believable - Johnson for how much he is making in appearance, and Reed because of his…history.   

 

However, I also agree with what some others have said, that LIV really needs a biggie to win one, and it doesn’t do it for the 4 Aces to win (that’s starting to show how lopsided the teams are) - 

Had Stenson, Wolff and Ortiz fallen a bit back for DJ and Reed and one of those two won, it would be a lot more suspicious , also at the same time - expected.

 

I think so far - that having these 3 guys who haven’t won in some time and come from well down in the OWGR - that it is just giving evidence of a couple things - some of the more notables have their game falling off - and/or - when you are paying big bucks for appearance, are they practicing and prepping as much as they were, are they as hungry for a win as they were, on the PGAT