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LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)


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1 hour ago, idrive said:

Honest question.

 

Does anyone think the loud music bothers some of these guys?

 

I have read a couple of different articles that have mentioned some of the guys backing off a shot when the music was particularly loud, especially the bass seemed to be the biggest disrupter.  

 

Lets be honest in the fact that they're used to having it be quiet, especially on the more difficult putts. How many times have you seen the caddies throw their arms up in an effort to quiet the crowd.

 

Think it makes any difference one way or the other?  Me thinks most don't really care for it but most likely have nothing they can say either way at this point.

 

There is so much other racket going on on a course I can't see how a professional lets it bother them.  Maybe it is just a convenient excuse when needed?

 

I played yesterday on a course not far from the flight path of a decent sized international airport.  Couple jets went over and they are loud.  Noticeable but nothing that I think would cause me to back off a shot.

 

I don't particularly care for music on the course for some of the reasons mentioned, chief among them is rarely is it my taste in music being played.  I think the music thing at the tournament was from the concert going on was it not?  They seem to try to be very loose, relaxed and appealing to a broader range of golf (and non-golf) fans at the venues.

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So I got to thinking about this LIV Tour/Stenson win and I'm working on a metric to predict the next winner, but have to go back to the first Tournament.

 

First event and it would be too obvious to have DJ win so the next best thing, given the push back, would be someone who's not

controversial and a tad bland.  "Oh Charl...would you be a dear?"  I don't think I've ever heard a bad word about him until he joined the LIV Tour.

 

Second event is quite obvious.  Establish the Alpha of the Tour.  The number one get from the PGA Tour, and the leagues number one golfer.  DJ!

 

They were most likely trying to figure out who wins week three when the DP World Tour gift wrapped the ousted Ryder Cup Captain turned LIV Tour player.  Henrik!  The ultimate FU!

 

So to recap, we have:

 

Mr. Nothing Wrong, Nothing to See Here

Mr. Alpha Player

Mr. Captain FU

 

For the next and fourth tournament, it's time to rub it in the face of the Top 20 still on the PGA Tour.  Going to need someone who is disliked and is still within a relatable age range of those Top 20 players.  Their accountants will be counting their nickles and dimes after the FedexCup while they watch another LIV player win north of $4 million. The top three candidates are:

 

Brooksie

Captain America

BDC

 

Also, the first three winners on the LIV Tour are Major winners so those three selections also follow an obvious trend.

 

Still have a few weeks for new developments to occur, but that's what the LIV executives have to be planning.  Momma's getting a new mink coat!  🤣🤣

 

 

 

 

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I'm not sure I would say that Feherty was following a script.  If anything, he helped the broadcast, because it toned down a bunch of the "rah rah rah" rhetoric from the previous events.  There were a lot of times when Feherty would say "That was a pretty terrible shot" after Phil left a 85yd wedge shot into the green 25ft from the pin. 

 

Event 3 had a different feel than events 1 and 2 imo.  

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6 minutes ago, idrive said:

 

FWIW

 

I took your advice and bookmarked your latest predictions from the other thread.  Same as I bookmarked this one:

 

"just a reminder that liv golf is the future!   Along with big signings of hideki matsuyama and tommy fleetwood after the British open!"


Thank you I appreciate that, especially on the last post from the other thread.  We should know more in the future, will be a quiet next few weeks for liv though 

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32 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

There is so much other racket going on on a course I can't see how a professional lets it bother them.  Maybe it is just a convenient excuse when needed?

 

I played yesterday on a course not far from the flight path of a decent sized international airport.  Couple jets went over and they are loud.  Noticeable but nothing that I think would cause me to back off a shot.

 

I don't particularly care for music on the course for some of the reasons mentioned, chief among them is rarely is it my taste in music being played.  I think the music thing at the tournament was from the concert going on was it not?  They seem to try to be very loose, relaxed and appealing to a broader range of golf (and non-golf) fans at the venues.

 

The distractions at a pro event are unreal. Private planes with banners circling non-stop. The Blimp makes a lot of noise. The patrons are usually two-fisted at 8am and by noon full on drunk just yakking it up near the greens. Most of this you can't see or hear on TV.

 

Honestly I'm amazed at how these guys can tune it all out and still play at the highest level.

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In the now-closed thread I saw this from @smashdn regarding OWGR qualifications and thought it worth pulling over here for discussion.

 

Quote

 

I get this and understand that this is their rules and they are welcome and entitled to have them, but why are we saying this is how a golf tournament should be so rigidly?

 

I especially question some of the things above and ask myself why is that so and what about this is an intrinsic must-have for a golf tournament.  Such as a 36 hole cut.  What purpose does a 36 hole cut serve?  Every once in a blue moon someone will make the "cut on the number" and sneak back into contention.  (I am looking at you Rory.)  In a 54 hole event especially, what is the 36 hole cut serving?  Guy from the bottom gets hot and has a career round and ends up T15.  What did that get us?  And why is that better?

 

Why 72 holes?  Who decided that was the optimum number of rounds for fielding a golf tournament?  Why not more?  Why not less?  I can see arguments for both.  Less rounds means each round of golf and each hole is that much more critical.  More rounds means you get a truer examination of who is playing the best golf on that course that week.

 

 

Regarding a 36-hole cut, I agree that I don't necessarily see the point of that being a requirement. Sending ~1/2 the field home after 36 holes when they're not in contention doesn't really mean much to me. Having a guideline that, for example, no more than 1/2 of the starting field receives any OWGR points (because frankly if you can't finish in the top half of the field, should you?) might be a way to get around anything related to requiring a cut. 

 

For 72 holes, I think this is a nod to tradition but *also* highlights the fact that the more holes are played, the more it should separate the wheat from the chaff. Let's face it, we've all seen PGA tournaments where someone we've never heard of is the leader after Friday and then just flat out disappears over the weekend. It's hard to put together one stellar round of golf. It's harder still to put together two. Harder to put together three. If you string together four great rounds of golf to beat the field, you've done something significant. It's the same reason that many sports crown a champion based upon "best of 7" series. It's because there's more noise than signal in a single round of golf or single game of most other sports. I can play a 1-hole event against Rory McIlroy and make a miracle birdie on a hole while he makes par. That doesn't mean Rory wouldn't destroy me in a 72 hole event. Rory would destroy me in a 3-hole event! But over 1 hole, maybe I'll get lucky! 

 

That said, what I would think OWGR could do is simply reduce the maximum number of points for 54-hole tournaments relative to 72-hole tournaments. There is more "chance" involved in who wins if you're playing fewer holes. More holes means you sustained excellence over a longer period and that deserves a greater reward.

 

The same is true regarding averaging a field size of 75+. While it's one thing that OWGR makes that a requirement, beating a field of 140 or 156 players in a PGAT event is significantly more challenging task than beating 48. Now, you can make an argument that this shouldn't disqualify LIV from getting OWGR points. But I'd again state that it would require a haircut in the number of points available if you're beating a much smaller field. Again, there's more chance there, which would make sense given that two of the three winners are Charl Schwartzel and Henrik Stenson, neither who have won on the PGAT or DP tour since 2017 (note: Stenson did win the Hero in 2019). 

 

I could see the OWGR relenting on some of these requirements if LIV is able to put together a pretty amazing strength of field, but I don't see them ever admitting that a 54-hole tournament with a field of 48 players is going to come close to the challenge or receive the same number of points as a 72-hole tournament with a field of 140+ players. 

 

There are reasons for things like number of holes, field size, etc. It's not an arbitrary distinction. 

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1 hour ago, avrag said:

 

I know it has bothered me, when I tried to watch the coverage on Youtube, especially so, beacuse it was music I personally would never listen to. 
Feel free to use "Ok, boomer" in your replies. I am proud of the fact that I manage to cope with most of my daily challenges in life without needing a smartphone app to help me with it.

 

My solution is I haven't even tried!

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I watched a little of the 3rd round on Sunday. I do like that they are experimenting with format and one consistent criticism I have of the PGAT coverage is that they don't show enough actual golf and get stuck following the leaders. That said, this is like golf for the Ritalin generation. From one extreme to the other. There has to be a happy medium somewhere. 

 

Also, something I found a bit off-putting was how much the announcers talked about money. That has to be a directive from up top for the specific purpose of enticing more and better players from the tour right? They can't think fans actually care to hear about this. I've never watched a tournament and thought, "Oh man! that missed two footer cost Jordan Speith $200k!". I can't imagine Jim Nantz saying on national television, "that 6 yard completion by Dak Prescott just unlocked a $1M performance bonus for eclipsing 4,000 yds this year".

 

If the market dictates that kind of money for your profession, well god bless you and enjoy the ride, but have the good manners to shut up about it. It seems as though these people never learned the lesson that money talks but wealth whispers.  

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33 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

So I got to thinking about this LIV Tour/Stenson win and I'm working on a metric to predict the next winner, but have to go back to the first Tournament.

 

First event and it would be too obvious to have DJ win so the next best thing, given the push back, would be someone who's not

controversial and a tad bland.  "Oh Charl...would you be a dear?"  I don't think I've ever heard a bad word about him until he joined the LIV Tour.

 

Second event is quite obvious.  Establish the Alpha of the Tour.  The number one get from the PGA Tour, and the leagues number one golfer.  DJ!

 

They were most likely trying to figure out who wins week three when the DP World Tour gift wrapped the ousted Ryder Cup Captain turned LIV Tour player.  Henrik!  The ultimate FU!

 

So to recap, we have:

 

Mr. Nothing Wrong, Nothing to See Here

Mr. Alpha Player

Mr. Captain FU

 

For the next and fourth tournament, it's time to rub it in the face of the Top 20 still on the PGA Tour.  Going to need someone who is disliked and is still within a relatable age range of those Top 20 players.  Their accountants will be counting their nickles and dimes after the FedexCup while they watch another LIV player win north of $4 million. The top three candidates are:

 

Brooksie

Captain America

BDC

 

Also, the first three winners on the LIV Tour are Major winners so those three selections also follow an obvious trend.

 

Still have a few weeks for new developments to occur, but that's what the LIV executives have to be planning.  Momma's getting a new mink coat!  🤣🤣

 

 

 

 

 

I think Patrick Reed winning every event would be wonderful. 😉

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43 minutes ago, khalespace said:

P Reed is playing in Singapore this week with the purse at $1.5 mil and winning prize $280k. Why would he do this? Is he trying to stay in the top 50 for the majors, currently 46. Is he getting appearance fee?

 

It may very well just be for OWGR points.  If it ends up taking OWGR 6-12 months to make a decision, most of these guys are gonna fall down the points rapidly.  So even if the majors still "allow" them, they may have a hard time qualifying.

 

And yes, many LIV players have been quoted saying they want to play less, and be home more, and maybe majors don't care.  But not every LIV player has said that.  I think Patrick mostly talked about how it looks fun, and he likes the team aspect, when he announced his decision.    

 

And with a 5 week gap in the LIV Invitational schedule, where else is he going to play?  He can't play PGAT events.  Or DP events.  And he does tend to play a decent number of events each year.

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34 minutes ago, khalespace said:

P Reed is playing in Singapore this week with the purse at $1.5 mil and winning prize $280k. Why would he do this? Is he trying to stay in the top 50 for the majors, currently 46. Is he getting appearance fee?

It’s part of his “less travel, better schedule” reasons for joining LIV.

 

It is actually next week, and the week after I think… so going right against the first FedEx Cup stop.

 

Seriously though, it is very unlikely to keep him in the Top 50 by major time.  Even winning both of them is unlikely to do much.   The current SOF and points won’t be determined until it is played, but if like other Asian events, 16 points or a little more.  Compare that to the FedEx stop in Memphis which last year earned the winner 74 points, and coming in 7th would get around 15 points (a three way tie at 5th got 15.3 points last year).   

 

It’s a stiff uphill battle to try and keep that world ranking unless you are playing in the PGAT, DPWT, or a Major.   If all the LIV guys went they would raise the strength of field and might double the amount of ranking points available - but even then more than half of them would not gain any significant points if they all came in at the top of field.

 

It may be that is he is getting an appearance fee.   But also a couple weeks ago, did LIV not announce that players are expected to play some Asian events in addition to their LIV events?   It may be contractual in his LIV contract that he plays at least a couple.   

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4 minutes ago, mitchl said:

It’s part of his “less travel, better schedule” reasons for joining LIV.

 

It is actually next week, and the week after I think… so going right against the first FedEx Cup stop.

 

Seriously though, it is very unlikely to keep him in the Top 50 by major time.  Even winning both of them is unlikely to do much.   The current SOF and points won’t be determined until it is played, but if like other Asian events, 16 points or a little more.  Compare that to the FedEx stop in Memphis which last year earned the winner 74 points, and coming in 7th would get around 15 points (a three way tie at 5th got 15.3 points last year).   

 

It’s a stiff uphill battle to try and keep that world ranking unless you are playing in the PGAT, DPWT, or a Major.   If all the LIV guys went they would raise the strength of field and might double the amount of ranking points available - but even then more than half of them would not gain any significant points if they all came in at the top of field.

 

It may be that is he is getting an appearance fee.   But also a couple weeks ago, did LIV not announce that players are expected to play some Asian events in addition to their LIV events?   It may be contractual in his LIV contract that he plays at least a couple.   


 

I read a good piece about how there are a few sports agents that are really driving some of these player moves.

 

I assume they are well compensated to do so ; )

 

So, I think the alternative, methodical,  approach that JT, Rahm, CM, are taking has some wisdom too it. 

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23 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

That said, what I would think OWGR could do is simply reduce the maximum number of points for 54-hole tournaments relative to 72-hole tournaments. There is more "chance" involved in who wins if you're playing fewer holes. More holes means you sustained excellence over a longer period and that deserves a greater reward.

 

The same is true regarding averaging a field size of 75+. While it's one thing that OWGR makes that a requirement, beating a field of 140 or 156 players in a PGAT event is significantly more challenging task than beating 48. Now, you can make an argument that this shouldn't disqualify LIV from getting OWGR points. But I'd again state that it would require a haircut in the number of points available if you're beating a much smaller field. Again, there's more chance there, which would make sense given that two of the three winners are Charl Schwartzel and Henrik Stenson, neither who have won on the PGAT or DP tour since 2017 (note: Stenson did win the Hero in 2019). 

 

Both of these are actually cooked into the OWGR now.   54 hole events do have a discount applied to them.

 

Also, as for the limited field - the Strength of Field is significantly affected by the field being just 48 instead of 140.

For a major, DPWT, or PGAT event of 140 players, most are inside the top 200.

Depending on where they fall, each one of them adds to the strength of field.   #1 being in the field adds 45 strength, #2 37, #16-20 adds 11, and it keeps dropping, by 50, it drops to 6.   81-100 +2, and 100-200 +1….
So if you have the bottom 100 of your field all be in the OWGR top 200, they are adding at least 100 to your strength of field.
But if you are cutting your field at 48, you need them highly ranked just to overcome the big tournaments having lots of golfers.   For example, if LIV had Scottie, and everyone else was #101-147, the strength would be 92.   If a PGA event had only players from #81 -200, it has a strength rating of 140.   
So you can see the strength of field is directly related to having more players in it, as long as they are inside the top 200.

Using the OWGR strength of field, I think Bedminster came in under 150 strength.   Meanwhile Rocket Mortgage was 214.   (3M was 107).     

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46 minutes ago, KennyP said:

Who do you all think will be the first player to buy themselves out and return to their respective tour?

I don't think any of the guys that jumped ship for a signing bonus care enough to return, they'd probably be fine retiring in a year or two.

 

Maybe James Piot, after he pockets enough money may want to play on another tour

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10 minutes ago, mitchl said:

 

Both of these are actually cooked into the OWGR now.   54 hole events do have a discount applied to them.

 

Also, as for the limited field - the Strength of Field is significantly affected by the field being just 48 instead of 140.

For a major, DPWT, or PGAT event of 140 players, most are inside the top 200.

Depending on where they fall, each one of them adds to the strength of field.   #1 being in the field adds 45 strength, #2 37, #16-20 adds 11, and it keeps dropping, by 50, it drops to 6.   81-100 +2, and 100-200 +1….
So if you have the bottom 100 of your field all be in the OWGR top 200, they are adding at least 100 to your strength of field.
But if you are cutting your field at 48, you need them highly ranked just to overcome the big tournaments having lots of golfers.   For example, if LIV had Scottie, and everyone else was #101-147, the strength would be 92.   If a PGA event had only players from #81 -200, it has a strength rating of 140.   
So you can see the strength of field is directly related to having more players in it, as long as they are inside the top 200.

Using the OWGR strength of field, I think Bedminster came in under 150 strength.   Meanwhile Rocket Mortgage was 214.   (3M was 107).     

 

Thanks. That's really good stuff. 

 

I think the point was to both address OWGR but also to answer @smashdn who asked whether all of these OWGR requirements for a tour were meaningful. 

 

In my mind, they're meaningful for determining how many OWGR points should be assigned, but perhaps not all that meaningful for qualification for a tour to even receive OWGR points. 

 

If a LIV tour was able to field 48 players, all of whom were in the top 80--including half the top 10--then strength of field might outweigh small field size. But if they have fields anything remotely similar to what they have today, plus they're only 54 hole events, even getting access to OWGR points isn't going to do much to keep the players relevant. 

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27 minutes ago, mitchl said:

It’s part of his “less travel, better schedule” reasons for joining LIV.

 

It is actually next week, and the week after I think… so going right against the first FedEx Cup stop.

 

Seriously though, it is very unlikely to keep him in the Top 50 by major time.  Even winning both of them is unlikely to do much.   The current SOF and points won’t be determined until it is played, but if like other Asian events, 16 points or a little more.  Compare that to the FedEx stop in Memphis which last year earned the winner 74 points, and coming in 7th would get around 15 points (a three way tie at 5th got 15.3 points last year).   

 

It’s a stiff uphill battle to try and keep that world ranking unless you are playing in the PGAT, DPWT, or a Major.   If all the LIV guys went they would raise the strength of field and might double the amount of ranking points available - but even then more than half of them would not gain any significant points if they all came in at the top of field.

 

It may be that is he is getting an appearance fee.   But also a couple weeks ago, did LIV not announce that players are expected to play some Asian events in addition to their LIV events?   It may be contractual in his LIV contract that he plays at least a couple.   

 

 PReed is going to find out the regulars on the Asian Tour can golf their ball on those courses a lot better than he thinks.  I doubt he can Top 10.

 

I wonder if behind the scenes some of the players got extra $ in their contract to overly pretend they like PR.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, CasualLie said:

 

 PReed is going to find out the regulars on the Asian Tour can golf their ball on those courses a lot better than he thinks.  I doubt he can Top 10.

 

I wonder if behind the scenes some of the players got extra $ in their contract to overly pretend they like PR.

 

 

 

I'm not even remotely saying he will win, it will be easy etc.  But just as an fyi, the top Asian Tour players have played the LIV events.  This article was just before the Portland event:

 

https://www.asiantour.com/13-asian-tour-members-set-for-liv-golf-invitational-portland

 

13 Asian Tour players played in Portland, including players that have won Asian tour events this year.  And Patrick has played with top Asian Tour players.  He played three rounds at The Open grouped with the current Order of Merit winner Joohyung Kim.

 

https://www.asiantour.com/kim-keeps-company-with-reed

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1 hour ago, oikos1 said:

So I got to thinking about this LIV Tour/Stenson win and I'm working on a metric to predict the next winner, but have to go back to the first Tournament.

 

First event and it would be too obvious to have DJ win so the next best thing, given the push back, would be someone who's not

controversial and a tad bland.  "Oh Charl...would you be a dear?"  I don't think I've ever heard a bad word about him until he joined the LIV Tour.

 

Second event is quite obvious.  Establish the Alpha of the Tour.  The number one get from the PGA Tour, and the leagues number one golfer.  DJ!

 

They were most likely trying to figure out who wins week three when the DP World Tour gift wrapped the ousted Ryder Cup Captain turned LIV Tour player.  Henrik!  The ultimate FU!

 

So to recap, we have:

 

Mr. Nothing Wrong, Nothing to See Here

Mr. Alpha Player

Mr. Captain FU

 

For the next and fourth tournament, it's time to rub it in the face of the Top 20 still on the PGA Tour.  Going to need someone who is disliked and is still within a relatable age range of those Top 20 players.  Their accountants will be counting their nickles and dimes after the FedexCup while they watch another LIV player win north of $4 million. The top three candidates are:

 

Brooksie

Captain America

BDC

 

Also, the first three winners on the LIV Tour are Major winners so those three selections also follow an obvious trend.

 

Still have a few weeks for new developments to occur, but that's what the LIV executives have to be planning.  Momma's getting a new mink coat!  🤣🤣

I guess Branden Grace didn't get the memo in Portland. 😂🤣😂

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If winning was easy, losers would do it.

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1 hour ago, KennyP said:

Who do you all think will be the first player to buy themselves out and return to their respective tour?

 

Probably a better chance the plug will be pulled and the players won't get the rest of their contract money

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7 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

Just realized the next 3 US liv events take place vs full slates of Saturday college football games. 
 

 

Yes. I have watched parts of all three LIV events thus far but when it is opposite college football I'll likely only view it 'after the fact', if at all. 

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1 hour ago, subrew said:

I'm not sure I would say that Feherty was following a script.  If anything, he helped the broadcast, because it toned down a bunch of the "rah rah rah" rhetoric from the previous events.  There were a lot of times when Feherty would say "That was a pretty terrible shot" after Phil left a 85yd wedge shot into the green 25ft from the pin. 

 

Event 3 had a different feel than events 1 and 2 imo.  

I'm glad Feherty is there. He's a character, which the PGA doesn't have, and what they sorely need. 

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4 hours ago, CasualLie said:

Doesn't it seem a little, maybe just a little, odd that Stenson went from deposed RC Captain to LIV winner in just a week???  We are not talking about a golfer in the groove and tournament ready.  We already know some of the teams were not truly a draft, so there's manipulation.  We already know so much money is being thrown at the players that it's basically an exhibition.  So how do we not know there may have been a little pre-game discussion in the locker room, a wink here, a nod there...and voila, Stenson is the chosen winner that week???

 

I know, it sounds crazy, outlandish, no way the golf is fixed!  But is is that far fetched of a scenario?  It wouldn't take much.  If you are getting paid a lot more money for finishing 2nd or 3rd or worse vs winning on PGAT, and you get team money too, plus your guaranteed contract; then it's not a lot to ask to miss a putt here and there, miss a chip...

 

This suspicion is what happens when there is a lot of money going around in a "controlled" environment.  I am just a little surprised the "fixing" card has not been brought up before. 

 

 

I'm not a LIV fan but this is going far into conspiracy. It wouldn't be the first time that a player gained extra motivation and ended up playing better. I'm thinking Rickie Fowler being called the most overrated player on Tour before the Players Championship one year and then playing the best golf of his life that week. Or various players at Ryder Cups after slights.

 

The older guys in particular still have a bit of skill but sometimes lack motivation. Stenson is talented enough to give a bit of extra oomph when he feels he has to prove himself. I don't see a big conspiracy that a once-great player like Stenson won a tournament without several of the world's best players.

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1 hour ago, Rob G 89 said:

Hard to say we don’t know which players are on contract and which ones are fill ins

 

Did you misspell Phil-in ? 

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