LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[JungleJimbo]

8 hours ago, WorkItBothWays said:

 

54 holes isn't the issue and it won't make any difference with respect to OWGR. It's the closed-shop nature and the team aspect that are the stumbling blocks and LIV have always known this. Both things are at the core of LIVs model so unless they fundamentally change they won't get points. A lot of LIV players still don't understand this despite OWGR being very clear.

 

https://www.golfwrx.com/738103/54-hole-golf-tour-deemed-eligible-for-owgr-points-but-its-not-liv/

 

 

 

[One Putter]

20 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

Replace "LIV" with "PGA Tour" and you have what it did to the European Tour.

 

The shoe is now on the other foot and they don't like it.  

You and others are on a constant attempt to make that false equivalency. It's BS. That's not in good faith and you know those aren't the same thing.

[JungleJimbo]

 

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2024/apr/26/golf-australia-liv-deal-junio-program-ripper-gc-cameron-smith

 

Golf Australia signs deal with LIV in first partnership with Saudi-backed tour

 

Quote

 

theguardian.com/sport/2024/apr/26/golf-australia-liv-deal-junio-program-ripper-gc-cameron-smith

Jack Snape

April 26, 2024

 

Ripper GC captain Cameron Smith on day one of LIV Adelaide at the Grange Golf Club. The Saudi-backed rebel tour has signed a deal with Golf Australia. Photograph: Michael Errey/AAP

• Cameron Smith’s Ripper GC and LIV to help fund junior program
• PGA of Australia still aligned with DP World Tour

LIV Golf has struck a deal to help fund Golf Australia’s junior program, in the first formal relationship between the steward of the game in Australia and the Saudi Arabia-backed entity.

The arrangement – which involves LIV and its Ripper GC franchise of Australian players led by Cameron Smith – has been in negotiations for weeks.

 

A formal announcement is expected in the coming days to coincide with the LIV tournament in Adelaide, according to a report in the Sydney Morning Herald.

The deal sees LIV and Ripper GC make it cheaper for some children to access My Golf, the junior program run by GA.

 

Ethical considerations drowned out as Adelaide’s LIV affair continues

Read more

GA also has staff working on a My Golf activation in Adelaide this week alongside the LIV tournament promotions.

In 2022-23, 33,000 children participated in My Golf, according to GA’s annual report, a figure that grew 22% on the previous year.

The cost of My Golf varies depending on the location and type of program. A single after school session can cost less than $50, but a regular hit over a school term is priced in the hundreds of dollars.

GA’s decision to accept the subsidies from LIV is the first major step by Australia’s golf establishment towards the upstart tour.

The PGA of Australia (PGAA), the body representing tournament and club professionals and organiser of the Australasian Tour, is still aligned with LIV rival the DP World Tour.

As manager of the game in Australia GA’s remit is on building participation and the body receives funding from the federal government.

However, GA and the PGAA have largely combined operations, adding a layer of complexity to the deal.

GA’s chief executive, James Sutherland, said last month Australia looked at LIV differently from other parts of the world.

 

“There’s clearly an ‘anti’ or a conservative sentiment about the Saudis in the US, and the further east you go on a world map from America, the more moderate the views are,” he said.

LIV commissioner Greg Norman said on Wednesday he was “very proud” of investments his organisation was making into golf generally.

“If it wasn’t for LIV, these additional investment dollars going into the sport would never have happened,” he said.

In excess of 80,000 people are expected to attend the LIV Adelaide tournament this weekend.

Norman has described the Adelaide event as the “benchmark” for LIV worldwide. LIV golf is funded by Saudi Arabia’s public investment fund.

Explore more on these topics

• LIV Golf Series
• Golf
• Saudi Arabia and sport
• Australia sport
• news

 

 

 

 

[bscinstnct]

14 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

But do you understand the difference between "how" and "what"?  The difference between methods and effect?

 

Reread what you quoted of mine and then ask yourself, "Did I respond thinking he said the methods were the same or that the effects were the same?"

 

The effect is not close to the same 

 

Had the pga tour done what LIV has, moved into Europe, staged events in the same countries on the same weeks as DP events, with bigger purses, and paid big appearance fees,

 

there would be a far different effect on the DP tour than the effect the PGA Tour has actually had. 
 

 

Edited April 26 by bscinstnct

[Hawkeye77]

3 hours ago, JungleJimbo said:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2024/apr/26/golf-australia-liv-deal-junio-program-ripper-gc-cameron-smith

 

Golf Australia signs deal with LIV in first partnership with Saudi-backed tour

 

 

 

Nice gesture - they are happy to take the donation for sure - of course, Australia Golf could have worked to get the some of the gov’t $$$$$$ spent on LIV, or the gov’t could have actually offered some, so too bad it had to come from the heavily subsidized LIV outfit - Australia golf is in a mess. 

Edited April 26 by Hawkeye77

[Hawkeye77]

2 hours ago, One Putter said:

You and others are on a constant attempt to make that false equivalency. It's BS. That's not in good faith and you know those aren't the same thing.

It’s like tag team “LIV’s Greatest Myths” lately, lol. 

[SnowbirdTom]

9 hours ago, JungleJimbo said:

 

https://www.golfwrx.com/738103/54-hole-golf-tour-deemed-eligible-for-owgr-points-but-its-not-liv/

 

What part of LIV's closed field non-compliance with OWGR do you not understand?  That's the major stumbling, bumbling block.

 

 

[dcmidnight]

Watching for about 15 minutes last night I realized that the Aussies really deserve better. Its clear the fans are going to turn out and the support is there for high level golf - they really deserve better than this field.

 

The other thing I noticed is that their team Twitter accounts still have about 4-5k followers after three years. Couldnt they just fake it and buy a few million fake followers to make it look better lol.

[mshills]

They could pay a shill to videobomb the NLU guys in Adelaide too! Oh, wait….😂

[smashdn]

4 hours ago, One Putter said:

You and others are on a constant attempt to make that false equivalency. It's BS. That's not in good faith and you know those aren't the same thing.

 

Then let's discuss why it is not.  I am happy to support my opinion with why I think there are parallels.  I will go ahead and state I think the effect is where I base most of my opinion not in the how.  Much like the golf ball debate going on, the why tends to concern some without proper regard for the fact that regardless of what might be causing the undesired effect, the effect is the same.  I am not really interested in talking about different motives when it results in similar outcomes.

[smashdn]

2 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

The effect is not close to the same 

 

Support that statement.  You say it but haven't supported it.

 

2 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

Had the pga tour done what LIV has, moved into Europe, staged events in the same countries on the same weeks as DP events, with bigger purses, and paid big appearance fees,

 

Cause, cause, cause.  Tell me about the effect.

 

2 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

there would be a far different effect on the DP tour than the effect the PGA Tour has actually had. 

 

Go on.  Is it the similar to the effect that LIV has had on the PGAT?  You are saying no.

 

 

Has the PGAT enacted policies that exacerbate the syphoning of DPWT talent from that tour?  Has the PGAT ever extended membership (worldwide even) to players on other tours without having played through the feeder system?  Just granted a player PGAT membership based upon, say, worldwide winnings?

[Hawkeye77]

10 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

Support that statement.  You say it but haven't supported it.

 

 

Cause, cause, cause.  Tell me about the effect.

 

 

Go on.  Is it the similar to the effect that LIV has had on the PGAT?  You are saying no.

 

 

Has the PGAT enacted policies that exacerbate the syphoning of DPWT talent from that tour?  Has the PGAT ever extended membership (worldwide even) to players on other tours without having played through the feeder system?  Just granted a player PGAT membership based upon, say, worldwide winnings?

You are just way, way off base with all this. Tossing out some general comments that it would take a synthesis of 34 years of history to answer.  Read up on the history of the European Tour, its challenges, how it evolved and it’s easy for anyone to understand (as most fans who have followed both tours all that time already know) that what you are tossing out is just wrong.  

Edited April 27 by Hawkeye77

[bscinstnct]

2 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

Support that statement.  You say it but haven't supported it.

 

 

Cause, cause, cause.  Tell me about the effect.

 

 

Go on.  Is it the similar to the effect that LIV has had on the PGAT?  You are saying no.

 

 

Has the PGAT enacted policies that exacerbate the syphoning of DPWT talent from that tour?  Has the PGAT ever extended membership (worldwide even) to players on other tours without having played through the feeder system?  Just granted a player PGAT membership based upon, say, worldwide winnings?

 

“Cause, cause, cause.  Tell me about the effect.”

 

Effect of the PGA Tour:

 

A tour where 100% of the best in the world compete without a safety net and millions watch to see them eat what they kill

 

The effect of LIV Golf:

 

 

 

 

[tomjas]

6 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Nice gesture - they are happy to take the donation for sure - of course, Australia Golf could have worked to get the some of the gov’t $$$$$$ spent on LIV, or the gov’t could have actually offered some, so too bad it had to come from the heavily subsidized LIV outfit - Australia golf is in a mess. 

lol

 

Australian golf is in good shape 

 

Btw, the Victorian State Government is paying $35 million to stage the 2028 Presidents Cup

 

 

[wedgegame]

5 hours ago, smashdn said:

Cause, cause, cause.  Tell me about the effect.

In the case of the ET and the PGAT, the effect was that the best golfers in the world ended up playing primarily on one tour that proved to be the better product as a result of legitimate competition between the two competing tours.

 

In the case of LIV and the PGAT, the effect is the best golfers in the world are playing on two different tours because the PIF decided to prop up a clearly inferior product with a seemingly unlimited supply of cash.

 

That clear enough for you?

[jmcm87]

I played GCOH Tournament course today off the tips. Man, I don’t see in a month and some change how they’re going to have that place ready for an event.
 

There are so many bare areas around the greens… most of the green side bunkers are under renovation.  

 

I understand you can make greens decent pretty quickly but that’s the worst I’ve seen them in 3 years. 
 

Fairways are in okay shape. When I compare it to the typical standard of a course at Woodlands CC it’s not even close. 
 

They have some work to do…..

[szaino]

On 4/25/2024 at 2:25 PM, WorkItBothWays said:

 

54 holes isn't the issue and it won't make any difference with respect to OWGR. It's the closed-shop nature and the team aspect that are the stumbling blocks and LIV have always known this. Both things are at the core of LIVs model so unless they fundamentally change they won't get points. A lot of LIV players still don't understand this despite OWGR being very clear.

This is a tail wagging the dog viewpoint.

 

If OWGR wants to be "the" ranking system for the world, then they need to figure out how to rank the best players in the world. LIV has some of the best players in the world competing in tournaments and the OWGR is totally locking them out and we all know why. 

 

This is not what a supposed independent and objective body should be doing. Team concept, 54 hole tournaments etc have nothing to do with it. If this is the professional golf environment, then OWGR needs to adjust, not the other way around. Giving 0 points to LIV players is absurd.

 

 

[idrive]

15 hours ago, szaino said:

This is a tail wagging the dog viewpoint.

 

If OWGR wants to be "the" ranking system for the world, then they need to figure out how to rank the best players in the world. LIV has some of the best players in the world competing in tournaments and the OWGR is totally locking them out and we all know why. 

 

This is not what a supposed independent and objective body should be doing. Team concept, 54 hole tournaments etc have nothing to do with it. If this is the professional golf environment, then OWGR needs to adjust, not the other way around. Giving 0 points to LIV players is absurd.

 

 

 

Clearly your opinion which doesn't count.

 

The opinion of those that do count are all that matters.

 

 

 

 

.

Edited April 27 by idrive

[geauxt]

5 hours ago, szaino said:

This is a tail wagging the dog viewpoint.

 

If OWGR wants to be "the" ranking system for the world, then they need to figure out how to rank the best players in the world. LIV has some of the best players in the world competing in tournaments and the OWGR is totally locking them out and we all know why. 

 

This is not what a supposed independent and objective body should be doing. Team concept, 54 hole tournaments etc have nothing to do with it. If this is the professional golf environment, then OWGR needs to adjust, not the other way around. Giving 0 points to LIV players is absurd.

 

 

I disagree. If a body like OWGR has set standards for what qualifies, they are under no obligation to bend/change their standards. 
 

LIV knew the requirements and decided the OWGR would just have to do what they say because they have a lot of money. Every player that signed with LIV also knew the standards and knew LIV didn’t/doesn’t qualify. They were then hit with a dose of reality. 

[SnowbirdTom]

5 hours ago, szaino said:

This is a tail wagging the dog viewpoint.

 

If OWGR wants to be "the" ranking system for the world, then they need to figure out how to rank the best players in the world. LIV has some of the best players in the world competing in tournaments and the OWGR is totally locking them out and we all know why. 

 

This is not what a supposed independent and objective body should be doing. Team concept, 54 hole tournaments etc have nothing to do with it. If this is the professional golf environment, then OWGR needs to adjust, not the other way around. Giving 0 points to LIV players is absurd.

 

 

Yeah, well, LIV withdrew their application for OWGR membership.  That horse is now dead and turned into paste.  Get over it.  LIV’s no longer interested in being called professional golf.

[PedronNiall]

6 hours ago, szaino said:

This is a tail wagging the dog viewpoint.

 

If OWGR wants to be "the" ranking system for the world, then they need to figure out how to rank the best players in the world. LIV has some of the best players in the world competing in tournaments and the OWGR is totally locking them out and we all know why. 

 

This is not what a supposed independent and objective body should be doing. Team concept, 54 hole tournaments etc have nothing to do with it. If this is the professional golf environment, then OWGR needs to adjust, not the other way around. Giving 0 points to LIV players is absurd.

 

 

 

Yes, that makes sense. Oversight bodies that have defined and available-to-all guidelines should upend them any time a bunch of divas in a sport decide to do whatever they want. And the most prestigious and storied tournaments in the sport involved? They should also kowtow to those who decided to put money first and in the process erode the entirety of what makes those events meaningful across the globe. 

 

Or the breakaway group could have the intelligence to establish a league that adheres to the known requirements and the players who are considering joining could have the common sense to weigh the possible consequences of jumping ship before doing so. 

 

I mean, either way works. I'll let you ponder which makes more sense. Take all the time you need, no judgements. 

[WorkItBothWays]

11 hours ago, szaino said:

This is a tail wagging the dog viewpoint.

 

If OWGR wants to be "the" ranking system for the world, then they need to figure out how to rank the best players in the world. LIV has some of the best players in the world competing in tournaments and the OWGR is totally locking them out and we all know why. 

 

This is not what a supposed independent and objective body should be doing. Team concept, 54 hole tournaments etc have nothing to do with it. If this is the professional golf environment, then OWGR needs to adjust, not the other way around. Giving 0 points to LIV players is absurd.

 

 

 

LIV players don't get zero points its the events that do and the team concept has everything to do with it. Read OWGR CEOs letter to Greg Norman its published on the OWGR site.

 

There is no conspiracy against LIV players they get points when they play in events that meet the criteria eg. majors, DPWT, Australian events etc. For (potential) ranking purposes LIV events are compromised due to the team element the reasons for that are objective, very clear and not difficult to understand.

 

OWGR are flexible their criteria is very broad but LIV, knowing this, still created a model that doesn't fit that criteria yet the suggestion is OWGR adjust. If OWGR adjusted it would then become absurd as it would ranking players playing in individual events (currently all OWGR eligible events) alongside players in events that are individual/team events simultaneously (LIV events). The LIV team component is not like a pro-am its central to the event and is intertwined with the individual part, again the reasoning from OWGR is laid out objectively.

 

The idea that OWGR adjust to LIV is twisted logic.

[ahenderX]

13 hours ago, szaino said:

This is a tail wagging the dog viewpoint.

 

If OWGR wants to be "the" ranking system for the world, then they need to figure out how to rank the best players in the world. LIV has some of the best players in the world competing in tournaments and the OWGR is totally locking them out and we all know why. 

 

This is not what a supposed independent and objective body should be doing. Team concept, 54 hole tournaments etc have nothing to do with it. If this is the professional golf environment, then OWGR needs to adjust, not the other way around. Giving 0 points to LIV players is absurd.

 

 

Ok. OWGR should give one point to each of the top ten each week. Happy now? Somehow, 23 professional tours globally understand what they need to do to get OWGR points. LIV does not want points. It just wants to be the victim of an ‘unjust system’. 

Edited April 27 by ahenderX

[Hawkeye77]

Rahm still finding all roads to exhibition success go through Richard Bland.  

[jdl]

22 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

Then let's discuss why it is not.  I am happy to support my opinion with why I think there are parallels.  I will go ahead and state I think the effect is where I base most of my opinion not in the how.  Much like the golf ball debate going on, the why tends to concern some without proper regard for the fact that regardless of what might be causing the undesired effect, the effect is the same.  I am not really interested in talking about different motives when it results in similar outcomes.

 

The cause is kind of important here, though.

 

15 hours ago, szaino said:

This is a tail wagging the dog viewpoint.

 

If OWGR wants to be "the" ranking system for the world, then they need to figure out how to rank the best players in the world. LIV has some of the best players in the world competing in tournaments and the OWGR is totally locking them out and we all know why. 

 

This is not what a supposed independent and objective body should be doing. Team concept, 54 hole tournaments etc have nothing to do with it. If this is the professional golf environment, then OWGR needs to adjust, not the other way around. Giving 0 points to LIV players is absurd.

 

 

 

That's not what OWGR is. It's not supposed to be "independent", read up on how and why it was formed. LIV never intended to get OWGR points, Norman lied to the guys he bought and then turned it into a grievance to use to get attention from the media. Just part of the charade.

[freeze16172002]

On 4/25/2024 at 10:27 AM, PedronNiall said:

 

ET never had the viewers the way DP still doesn't. You act like the ET was a booming business that the PGA somehow bamboozled into all but folding up. Business is business even when we don't like it and there's a reason the PGA has had to partner with and/or advise the majority of other tours in the world. For all the love of the game many other places claim what they don't do is watch it in any sizeable numbers compared to those in NA and especially the US.

 

If the ET had been the better product it would have had the sustainable dollars to fund the purses to attract and keep the best players for enough events to at least retain exemption every year if not full membership. Let's not act as though both sides didn't try to shore up their positions against each other rather than playing nicely. Let's also not act like the ET putting their nose up in the air and looking down on the PGA as lesser didn't cause some of the strife that went on. 

 

All that said, the PGA/ET tiffs were nothing compared what's going on with LIV. Free country and all that but weird that you still have a chip on your shoulder about those past issues but are going full bore for LIV and going to an event in person. Ironic in my book. 

The PGA tour will always attract the top players over the DP. Take Rory for example play the DP Tour primarily and live in Ireland with a 50% income tax and 20 sales tax. Or live in the US with a 37% rate, 7% sales and no state tax in Florida. 

Edited April 27 by freeze16172002

[mosesgolf]

18 hours ago, tomjas said:

lol

 

Australian golf is in good shape 

 

Btw, the Victorian State Government is paying $35 million to stage the 2028 Presidents Cup

 

 

Btw the PGA Tour own’s the Presidents Cup.  Hellooooooo!!!

 

[Hawkeye77]

19 hours ago, tomjas said:

lol

 

Australian golf is in good shape 

 

Btw, the Victorian State Government is paying $35 million to stage the 2028 Presidents Cup

 

 

 

And South Australia refuses to reveal how much actual taxpayer money (unbelievable they get away with keeping it secret) is being spent to allow it to have the Adelaide LIV event - LIV isn't footing the whole bill by a longshot.  There's no commercial interest in investing in golf overall and that is telling, purses continue to be relatively weak (and government subsidized).  That's not a sign of healthy golf at all - which explains why people are hungry for any kind of golf (but why LIV still has to push a huge social event vs. real competitive golf and more of a regional "festival" to get attendance and sure, a lot of interest for the party).

 

Kind of ironic, and telling, that last year it was all about a few LIV players, including Cam Smith, talking about how it would be great for LIV to expand to at least one more location in Australia, and other locations and entities were interested in bidding and made offers (that means paying $$$$$$$$$) to have a LIV event and Mr. Bring Golf To "My" People Greg saying "noooooooooo" - there will be only one event and in Adelaide because the Premier was such a standup guy so they are rewarding that "loyalty" (again, read $$$$$$$$$$$ of taxpayer money and mum's the word on how much).  What are the odds there are some healthy "appearance" fees, not disclosed, being paid?  Pretty good based on history.  So basically telling the rest of Australia (the only place they've had real success) to piss off, lol.  No doubt Smith thought it would be expanded - haha, not so fast with what you may have thought and why you may have thought that.

 

 

Edited April 27 by Hawkeye77

[CDM]

On 4/26/2024 at 12:22 PM, tomjas said:

lol

 

Australian golf is in good shape 

 

Btw, the Victorian State Government is paying $35 million to stage the 2028 Presidents Cup

 

 

 

...........AT AN AMAZING COURSE TOO............!!  

[Golferpaul]

On 4/27/2024 at 8:47 AM, Hawkeye77 said:

 

And South Australia refuses to reveal how much actual taxpayer money (unbelievable they get away with keeping it secret) is being spent to allow it to have the Adelaide LIV event

 

 

Maybe none.  Since it's secret, maybe it's zero.

 

And maybe it's growing:   "More than 94,000 fans poured through the gates of the Grange Golf Club in Adelaide, comfortably eclipsing the previous record set at last year’s event."

 

LIV Golf sets new attendance record in Adelaide | bunkered.co.uk